Originally posted by miagisan

i hate quest grinding when it is required to level (EQ, WOW, etc). But when you make it an alternative to levelling for just some rewards and some xp, but mostly for a story....then this to me is what questing should be about....not for just the xp and money.

It's possibly why i loved swg and love eve....i don't have to quest, those are very minor components of the game...and were completely optional.

umm EQ did not have a quest grind at all.  It had very few quest and those were all optional.

I think anything done for too long is bad- and this applies to the old school and new school mmos. It's a tragedy of the mmo genre that it needs to be done- that, players have to engage in something so many times that it is scarcely enjoyable and becomes a 'grind'. Old-school grinding was just as soul-destroying as the quest-grinds- all because of the game's unfortunate need for an extended treadmill.

I can't say I absolutely hate griding, it's just the matter of when you've done it for over an hour, and you only get about 10% of the exp you need. That's when it gets annoying. Not to mention when there's a limited amount of quests you can do for good amounts of experience. So in the end, you do the same old thing over and over, and that's how a lot of games start to burn out fast.

What they truely need, are changing quests that are challenging, but once you complete them, they pretty much level you or whatever you're tryin' to do. You shouldn't have to do the same easy thing over and over, you should have an extremely hard task that you and a batch of friends can tackle down for masses of exp or whatever your goal is. so you don't kill the same monsters and such repetitively, but it's not an instantly thing, you actually have to work for it.
 

was just wondering if there might be a way to make ammorg that lets yu quest grind or just kill mobs to lvl up>>>>

when yu quest grind yu might get little to no xp from the mobs yu kill but get the reward at the end...

or toggle to mob grind if yu will>>>>

when yu kill mobs  in the same area yu get an xp bonus and a chance of an item to drop being as good or a touch better then the reward for the quest in that area.....

would that work ?

I just wanted to make this thread one post longer.  I hate quests, when I played WoW and people would just do instances once just to complete quests and when everyone stood around sharing quests at the beginning I'd start sperging.  I just wanted to do the instance fast and then I wanted to do it again and again and again.  I also hated full quest logs, I never bothered completing half my quests unless I was doing a walkthrough so I'd end up dropping quests that were half finished because I just couldn't be bothered to finish them.  In WoW I went from level 36 to 45 just grinding in Stranglethorn and badlands (while spamming LFG for whatever instance even though I had no quests for it).  I leveled my warlock from lvl 54-60 by doing nothing but grinding for felcloth in Azshara.  I did hardly any quests past lvl 30, just instances and grinding mobs.

Lineage 2 I only played open beta but I was hanging out around this dungeon and met up with 3 other people and we just grinded away, I probably stayed up 3 hours later than I should have that night, it was awesome, and all we did was grind 3 different models for probably 5 or 6 hours.

I agree with what some of the others have said, at least when you grind mobs you have more options, unrepeatable quests are just a treadmill.  What sucks the most is a game that has super potential game mechanics wise like Stargate (because it has Stargates, so it could be like Eve but with dudes instead of space ships) is going to end up with local chats line "which planet do I go to now that I'm level 11?" and there will probably be a lame ass linear unrepeatable quest grind to go with it.  It's so stupid too because someone has to code each quest.

Edit: I basically want a triple A Wurm Online with many different unique zones (joined by long travel time), UI customization, and triple A style npc combat and animation. Throwing some raids and wow style instances in is cool too, maybe do that in Lava world zone where it would be too harsh to build your own house.

Originally posted by Torik

No matter its downsides quest grinding is still thousnad times better than simply XP grinding.

Camping a respawn spot for hours just killing the same mobs over and over was pathetic and looking back I want to kick myself for ever playing that way.

The problem with the quest grind is that just focusing on finishing the quests gets boring fast.  The trick is to use the quests as a guide to explore the area you are in and check out the content that is available.  Obsessing about finishing quests is just as bad as obsessing about gaining XP or leveling.  If you just do quests as a natural part of your character's progresion you stop feeling the grind.

In contrast to the OP I really like how WoW is incorporating quests into the natural progression of the game.  When I play WoW I raraly look at my XP bar and simply move through the zones doing various quests until I feel that I did what I wanted in the area and move on to the next zone.

I think you are confusing the time it takes to level with the method you take to level. No one said that the leveling time should be back the way it was in EQ. I wouldn't mind it but that isn't what is being discussed. I still think quest should be in the game but made optional. Some don't like quest. I think XP should come from killing only to break away from linear. Quest would still have great rewards that you wouldn't otherwise get if you were only killing monsters. 

I still stand by my belief that they are both boring because the gameplay mechanics are inherently boring.  This is mostly because of the strain on the servers I think, but the battling systems in these games are usually pretty bad.  In order for it to be a good system, it needs to be a little more complicated than a typical MMO's fighting system where you just spam skills.  

The problem is that then you get people saying the game is too difficult or too cumbersome.  My favorite battle system is FFXI's, because there were SO MANY unique skills, and there was a good time to use almost every one of them.  Plus, there were actually group battle mechanics that so many other games lack.  Still, it got a bit boring after a while, because you still end up doing the same thing over and over again.

That was a grinding game.  There were tons of quests, but they don't give you any exp, so people would only really do them when they needed something.  You want to do the quest for the O.Hat?  Well, you better do some quests, because you need to get more famous in the region before you can get it. 

That wasn't a great system either, but the one benefit was that there were a lot less boring quests in FFXI.  Almost all the quests were pretty intricate, and you actually wanted to pay attention to them.  Sure there were some boring ones as well, but not like other games today, when they are ALL boring.  The other thing ffxi had was Missions, which were required to give you a rank in your nation.  At rank 5 you could ride airships, and there were other perks.  The missions were always pretty damn fun, and involved a lot of people banding together killing some sweet stuff.

The point of that was to say that quests and missions in FFXI were a lot better than they are in most games, and that was a GRINDING game.  Why can't a quest grinding game come out with missions that are like this? 

Answer:  Because then they wouldn't have 2000 quests.  In ffxi, the quests were fewer, but also had much more care put into them to make them fun, unique, and interesting. 

The problem is levels, in my opinion.  They are an outdated way of giving you extra stats to kill harder stuff, instead of making the mobs actually harder.  As someone said in another thread, stats in general were just a way to simulate combat on paper, because the only other way you could do it was to just make it up. 

Well, we have computers now that CAN simulate combat (Hello, Street Fighter 4).  Why not make a game that actually involves skill instead of mindlessly killing mobs or mindlessly killing mobs so you can turn in 15 rat tails?

If the system was fun, it wouldn't matter if you quest grinded or mob grinded because the game itself would actually be fun.  It's kind of pathetic that we're arguing over which one is better when we refer to both of them as a grind -- simply a means to an end.  How about a game where fighting isn't a grind?  It's the MAIN GAME MECHANIC for god's sake.

Originally posted by local93bc

Quest grind=boring

In EQ1 I never even quested one time.

We would just sit out and pull diffilcult mobs as we had conversation with other group members.

 

 

 

 

That sounds about as fun as having my balls smashed with a hammer.

Originally posted by seabass2003

Originally posted by local93bc

Quest grind=boring

In EQ1 I never even quested one time.

We would just sit out and pull diffilcult mobs as we had conversation with other group members.

 

 

 

 

That sounds about as fun as having my balls smashed with a hammer.

Yeah, and being everyone's errand boy sounds a lot more appealing. 

Originally posted by colettak

Originally posted by seabass2003

Originally posted by local93bc

Quest grind=boring

In EQ1 I never even quested one time.

We would just sit out and pull diffilcult mobs as we had conversation with other group members.

 

 

 

 

That sounds about as fun as having my balls smashed with a hammer.

 

 

Yeah, and being everyone's errand boy sounds a lot more appealing. 

One trend I have noticed in MMO's compared to Single-Player games is that yes you are an errand boy who sometimes gets to do great things. In the single-player game YOU are the HERO. Sure there are some crap quests but you really do become the great hero. In MMO's no matter if I am level 1 or level 80 I am always being someone's bitch. MMO's need to make people start being THE HEROES and not just mundane characters doing errands.

Either way, mob-grinding is boring as hell and being an errand boy is boring as hell too. I play games to be the freaking HERO!!! MMO's really seem to fail miserably at this.

FFXI did a good job I think of really getting into that hero's mentality, because of the heavy focus on storyline.  From what I played of the Aion beta, it looks pretty similar in regard -- yeah, you start off doing a ton of errand quests, but there are glimmers of grandeur in your future.  I didn't get far enough to see them, unfortunately, but I completely agree with you.  Or maybe not necessarily the hero, but at least make the story really capture me and want me to get involved.  There's just something about collecting your 20th wolf hide that makes me not give a crap.

I really don't mind quest grinding or mob grinding when I want some relaxing.

Like whenever i had a bad day and i don't wanna do somthing intence that requires me to think but still wanna do somthing? you know?

So I just turn on some music and grind quests or grind mobs :P It's acturalyl pretty relaxing like fishing... but only thing is I didn't subscribe to a game that i pay 14 bucks a month JUST SO I CAN ENJOY THE JOY OF RELAXING.

I would just go play a Free 2 play MMO if i just wanted to enjoy grinding!

The only reason I go do grinding quests or grind mobs is when I really REALLY want that particular quest reward item or mob drop.

Or in most cases i the quest might be a important segment of the story being told in the MMO, so i play the quest just so i can understand the story better.

But sometimes they don't really make sence:

"The evil things have destroied our land, killed innocent civilians and raped the little ones, we must stand and fight! Now go randomly kill 15 evil things that live in the village over there, after you killed 15 evil things, go kill another 15 more, and then finally go kill the boss and kill around 35 more evil things while trying to get to him, oh don't forget that you need to come back each time you killed a certain number so i can waste your time even more!"

"Err what?"

I miss those quests where they give you a story, they give you a objective, but the way you finnish that objective is up to you to find out.

Like you know? REAL RPG? Walking around talking to villagers to find out where the monster hides , buying maps, finding out the monsters weak points, and finally finding the monster and killing it. It's so much more satisfiying than being told:

Go over there and kill that. I would do it myself, but i hurt my little finger while ironing my metal plates

Grinding just plain sucks in general, but at least with quests you have an in-game reason to be doing things rather than just getting that next stupid level or skill point.

The second it stops being fun and starts being a mechanic you are aware of, is the second the game fails at its aim of being a means of entertainment.

I guess why people hate questing is because there is no personalized choices like on most solo rpg have, perhaps SW:TOR changes that and makes quests more personal and actually advance your character in a specific way that encourages it and makes it fun instead of getting 200xp and 1copper per quest.

Here is me hoping.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Ok, I know I'm not the only one but are we vastly outnumbered by the people who do like it?

I tried WoW a few months back....quest grinding.  I just tried the Lotr trial....more quest grinding.

Alright, I don't get it, what is the fun in that?  You log into a game and are immediately told where to go and what to do.  It piles one quest on top of another so that you always have ten or fifteen stupid arse tasks you're supposed to do.  Go collect seven rat butts.  Go pick 10 daisies.  Talk to that guy then come back then go over there.  Hop on one foot while singing "I'm a little teapot" and smacking your own behind with a fly swatter then report back to me.

I can't take it.  I want freedom.  I don't want the damn game telling me what to do every step of the way.  I hate that crap.  I hate having 15 different little odd jobs demanding my attention and feeling like I really should do them even though I don't give a damn about any of it.  But that's how you get upgrades, class skills, the best experiece, and you never know if one of those idiot "quests" will lead to another "quest" that rewards you with something vital (like a class skill) so you feel like you might be missing something important if you don't do them.

Holy Christ, what the hell happened?  What happened to freedom?  What happened to just going out and finding things for yourself?  Do people really like being led by the nose through their games?  Is this really the future of mmorpgs?

And you know what else?  That quest grinding crap is like the final nail in the coffin of grouping.  Even though mobs in those games are so easy to kill that they practically fall over dead if you even look at them funny I still think people might group some just to speed things up if they weren't all running around spastically picking daisies and collecting rat butts.

The thing is; why would you bother trying to group with anyone when your chances of finding someone who is at the exact same spot in the sequence of quests as you are is practically nill.  Any given person is probablly either three quests ahead of you or at least three quests behind you.  You aren't going to wait for anyone to catch up to you and no one is going to wait for you to catch up to them.  And even if you did get into a group for a particular quest, as soon as it's over the other guy is going to want to go <that way> while you need to go <this way> so that's it, your group lasted all of five minutes and then your quests pulled you in different directions.  And everyone knows all of this so nobody bothers with grouping in the first place.

So everyone just runs around doing these stupid errands alone.  Never talking to another person (why would they?).  Never grouping.  Just playing connect the dots or paint by numbers or whatever analogy you prefer for this crap.  No exploration, no adventure, no social play, no fun...just...do as you're told and follow the dotted line through the game alone.

Dang, it's some pretty depressing sh...er, stuff.  If that's what people really want, to be errand boys taking orders from NPCs and being told what to do and where to go every step of the way, then I think my faith in humanity has just dropped significantly.

 

Maby try freerealms when it comes out, i know many thinks its only a kids game, but hell its more fresh then anyother games out there.
 

The moment you login to a game. Its YOUR choice what you want to do.

If you don't want to do mindless quests.. don't.

If you want to group... start asking people.

I played WoW last night, and I grouped 4 different times, and added 3 people to my friends list. Unheard of right? Nope, its just people with this "WoW made everything bad" mindset that kills me. They are almost as bad as the kids who they complain about that play. Instead of helping the community, they whine and complain. The funny  thing is, there are already games out there that fit your needs.. you just hate WoW and thats really what this is about.

Play Vanguard, Play Eve, Play a MUD, Play UO, Play Darkfall, Play EQ. Do I really need to continue? You will grind in mmo's.. period.. in some way or fashion. I don't need to be forced to group, in order to look for people to play with. Thats the part of the game I enjoy. So therefore I seek it out. Its not gonna come to you. WoW and LOTRO are no different than anything else. They just made it more convenient to play alone, if you needed to. Noone is saying that you have to play that way. If you do, its your own fault.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Ok, I know I'm not the only one but are we vastly outnumbered by the people who do like it?

I tried WoW a few months back....quest grinding.  I just tried the Lotr trial....more quest grinding.

Alright, I don't get it, what is the fun in that?  You log into a game and are immediately told where to go and what to do.  It piles one quest on top of another so that you always have ten or fifteen stupid arse tasks you're supposed to do.  Go collect seven rat butts.  Go pick 10 daisies.  Talk to that guy then come back then go over there.  Hop on one foot while singing "I'm a little teapot" and smacking your own behind with a fly swatter then report back to me.

I can't take it.  I want freedom.  I don't want the damn game telling me what to do every step of the way.  I hate that crap.  I hate having 15 different little odd jobs demanding my attention and feeling like I really should do them even though I don't give a damn about any of it.  But that's how you get upgrades, class skills, the best experiece, and you never know if one of those idiot "quests" will lead to another "quest" that rewards you with something vital (like a class skill) so you feel like you might be missing something important if you don't do them.

Holy Christ, what the hell happened?  What happened to freedom?  What happened to just going out and finding things for yourself?  Do people really like being led by the nose through their games?  Is this really the future of mmorpgs?

And you know what else?  That quest grinding crap is like the final nail in the coffin of grouping.  Even though mobs in those games are so easy to kill that they practically fall over dead if you even look at them funny I still think people might group some just to speed things up if they weren't all running around spastically picking daisies and collecting rat butts.

The thing is; why would you bother trying to group with anyone when your chances of finding someone who is at the exact same spot in the sequence of quests as you are is practically nill.  Any given person is probablly either three quests ahead of you or at least three quests behind you.  You aren't going to wait for anyone to catch up to you and no one is going to wait for you to catch up to them.  And even if you did get into a group for a particular quest, as soon as it's over the other guy is going to want to go <that way> while you need to go <this way> so that's it, your group lasted all of five minutes and then your quests pulled you in different directions.  And everyone knows all of this so nobody bothers with grouping in the first place.

So everyone just runs around doing these stupid errands alone.  Never talking to another person (why would they?).  Never grouping.  Just playing connect the dots or paint by numbers or whatever analogy you prefer for this crap.  No exploration, no adventure, no social play, no fun...just...do as you're told and follow the dotted line through the game alone.

Dang, it's some pretty depressing sh...er, stuff.  If that's what people really want, to be errand boys taking orders from NPCs and being told what to do and where to go every step of the way, then I think my faith in humanity has just dropped significantly.

 

i couldnt read what u wrote cause its a wall to me and im tired. but yeah!  im sick and tired of quest grinding!!!!

i had way more fun just grinding regular old mobs back in eq1 then i do grindin out quests 24/7.

Originally posted by raystantz

Play Vanguard, Play Eve, Play a MUD, Play UO, Play Darkfall, Play EQ. Do I really need to continue?

Yes, please continue because none of those suggestions work for me.  Am I too picky?  Maybe, but I have issues with all of those suggestions.

Depopulated level based games with low-mid level areas that are completely dead don't appeal to me as a starting player.

Text based and 2D games don't cut it for me.  I'm not a graphics whore but I do want at least a 3D game.

PvP is great but I also want good PvE.

FPV only is an absolute deal breaker for me.  Sorry, that's just the way I am.

The EQ I enjoyed is dead and gone.  It's really not the same game anymore and although I loved it for several years I had at least one irreconcilable difference with the direction the game was going even when I was still enjoying it.

And SOE can kiss my hairy behind if they think I'm going to pay a subscription fee for a cash shop game.  Pick one or the other you greedy bastards but not both.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Yes, please continue because none of those suggestions work for me.  Am I too picky?  Maybe, but I have issues with all of those suggestions.

Depopulated level based games with low-mid level areas that are completely dead don't appeal to me as a starting player.

Text based and 2D games don't cut it for me.  I'm not a graphics whore but I do want at least a 3D game.

PvP is great but I also want good PvE.

FPV only is an absolute deal breaker for me.  Sorry, that's just the way I am.

The EQ I enjoyed is dead and gone.  It's really not the same game anymore and although I loved it for several years I had at least one irreconcilable difference with the direction the game was going even when I was still enjoying it.

And SOE can kiss my hairy behind if they think I'm going to pay a subscription fee for a cash shop game.  Pick one or the other you greedy bastards but not both.

You might have to retire from MMOs=)  You complain that you're forced to do this quest or that quest, when thats completely untrue.  You can join in with anyone you want and share the quests they have or just help them out.  You don't have to do the quests.  You don't HAVE TO follow the NPCs.   For someone who wants choice, you sure are acting like a big follower sheep, unable to think for yoruself.  Considering you THINK you're forced to do quests, you probably made zero effort to actually form a group for a dungeon.  You can claim what you did all you want, but when a nice mature person starts taking the initiative to form a dungeon group, its amazing how many people will want to go.  There are loads of people who want to do dungeons but many are just waiting around for everyone else.  You just have to ask.  Coming from EQ, you should be well trained in all the ways to do so and should have no problem leading the party.   Bring along an FAQ if you don't actually want to fail, not that someone of your experience would have any chance at that=) 

If you can't find WOW fun in the PvE area, then you're completely SOL, because no game now or coming out in the near future is going to be doing it much better.  Play on a PvP server and you've got all the PvP you could handle, since theres always plenty of people around to kill.   But you could be right.  You might be so nitpicky searchign for an ideal game that doesn't exist and never will.  Reminds me of nerds who want to marry a supermodel, but look like Screech from Saved by the Bell and don't understand why they can't find anyone=)

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by raystantz

Play Vanguard, Play Eve, Play a MUD, Play UO, Play Darkfall, Play EQ. Do I really need to continue?

 

Yes, please continue because none of those suggestions work for me.  Am I too picky?  Maybe, but I have issues with all of those suggestions.

Depopulated level based games with low-mid level areas that are completely dead don't appeal to me as a starting player.

Text based and 2D games don't cut it for me.  I'm not a graphics whore but I do want at least a 3D game.

PvP is great but I also want good PvE.

FPV only is an absolute deal breaker for me.  Sorry, that's just the way I am.

The EQ I enjoyed is dead and gone.  It's really not the same game anymore and although I loved it for several years I had at least one irreconcilable difference with the direction the game was going even when I was still enjoying it.

And SOE can kiss my hairy behind if they think I'm going to pay a subscription fee for a cash shop game.  Pick one or the other you greedy bastards but not both.

there's a reason they are dead...

I'll let you see if you can figure out why that is..

Take a look at the populated MMO's and see if you can put 2 and 2 together.

To further raise this argument.

Last night on the ever terrible "WoW" as everyone calls it..

I created a group for ZF, ran it TWICE.. I then quested for about 2 hrs with one of the strangers I had just met in this party. Gained a level, and also killed about 12 different people in PVP during my travels.

What am I being forced to do again?

Then, I logged over to Lotro.. joined a fellowship doing the book quest I was on, and then I spent the rest of the night exploring and playing my lute..

Thats why I have played Guild Wars for so long. It is mission based not quest grinding. I also enjoyed FFXI for the same reason, no quest grind for levels. Give me an mmo where quests are optional and I'll be happy again.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Thats why I have played Guild Wars for so long. It is mission based not quest grinding. I also enjoyed FFXI for the same reason, no quest grind for levels. Give me an mmo where quests are optional and I'll be happy again.

Quests are optional in WoW, LOTRO, EQ2, Vanguard, ... I can keep going.

You choose to level using the quests, they are just there for people who don't want to just kill mobs without at least a reason for doing it other than levels.

I've played FFXI forever, and its no different.. your still grinding, and its still just as boring. You can play either way in a group. FFXI just doesn't give you a choice.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Thats why I have played Guild Wars for so long. It is mission based not quest grinding. I also enjoyed FFXI for the same reason, no quest grind for levels. Give me an mmo where quests are optional and I'll be happy again.

Like its been said 100 times, every MMO has optional quests.  I don't recall quests magically appearing in my log, while the computer takes over and moves my avatar to the correct locations and starts attacking mobs I don't want to.  I DO recall having to manually click on the NPC to begin them though.  I also recall choosing to do some of them and ignoring others.  I remember sometimes not finishing them at all and dropping them from the log.  I remember noticing that I got more experience doing a dungeon, because of all the elite mobs in there AND I got much better rewards to boot and got to fight a huge boss as well.  I remember it being more fun too.   I remember a friend sharing a quest with me before hand that I never found, that had a pretty decent story attached with multiple parts, characters, good guys and bad guys.   But I forget how forced that all was;)  Damn stupid game offering me a choice to play alone, play with friends, go on a quest OR just kill whatever was in my way while I just explored the map.  How lame.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Ok, I know I'm not the only one but are we vastly outnumbered by the people who do like it?

I tried WoW a few months back....quest grinding.  I just tried the Lotr trial....more quest grinding.

Alright, I don't get it, what is the fun in that?  You log into a game and are immediately told where to go and what to do.  It piles one quest on top of another so that you always have ten or fifteen stupid arse tasks you're supposed to do.  Go collect seven rat butts.  Go pick 10 daisies.  Talk to that guy then come back then go over there.  Hop on one foot while singing "I'm a little teapot" and smacking your own behind with a fly swatter then report back to me.

I can't take it.  I want freedom.  I don't want the damn game telling me what to do every step of the way.  I hate that crap.  I hate having 15 different little odd jobs demanding my attention and feeling like I really should do them even though I don't give a damn about any of it.  But that's how you get upgrades, class skills, the best experiece, and you never know if one of those idiot "quests" will lead to another "quest" that rewards you with something vital (like a class skill) so you feel like you might be missing something important if you don't do them.

Holy Christ, what the hell happened?  What happened to freedom?  What happened to just going out and finding things for yourself?  Do people really like being led by the nose through their games?  Is this really the future of mmorpgs?

And you know what else?  That quest grinding crap is like the final nail in the coffin of grouping.  Even though mobs in those games are so easy to kill that they practically fall over dead if you even look at them funny I still think people might group some just to speed things up if they weren't all running around spastically picking daisies and collecting rat butts.

The thing is; why would you bother trying to group with anyone when your chances of finding someone who is at the exact same spot in the sequence of quests as you are is practically nill.  Any given person is probablly either three quests ahead of you or at least three quests behind you.  You aren't going to wait for anyone to catch up to you and no one is going to wait for you to catch up to them.  And even if you did get into a group for a particular quest, as soon as it's over the other guy is going to want to go <that way> while you need to go <this way> so that's it, your group lasted all of five minutes and then your quests pulled you in different directions.  And everyone knows all of this so nobody bothers with grouping in the first place.

So everyone just runs around doing these stupid errands alone.  Never talking to another person (why would they?).  Never grouping.  Just playing connect the dots or paint by numbers or whatever analogy you prefer for this crap.  No exploration, no adventure, no social play, no fun...just...do as you're told and follow the dotted line through the game alone.

Dang, it's some pretty depressing sh...er, stuff.  If that's what people really want, to be errand boys taking orders from NPCs and being told what to do and where to go every step of the way, then I think my faith in humanity has just dropped significantly.

 

Okay first off, I haven't read anyone else's posts... but I can sum up what you're looking for in 1 word.

Darkfall.

These days, a lot of games are geared towards younger people, usually ages 13-24. The youngest of that group do enjoy being pushed along, MMOs think they have to cater to the populous to be successful, and the majority of the world are NOT leaders, and don't know how to think/act for themselves. That's why we are seeing more and more F2P games with glowing childish graphics and a auto-run feature that does every quest for you!

Darkfall not only makes you explore the world for yourself, but you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. While it probably won't ever reach 10+ million subs, it is a great game and geared to be harder and more rewarding. I wouldn't advise playing alone though, find yourself some friends or a guild ASAP in this game.