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ok I just have to say this people, I have seen a lot of people talking about permadeath....do you people even know what you're saying. Permadeath= dumb idea Reason: While permadeath has been seen as an interesting idea think about this scenario, you make the game harder ok well sit on this awhile. Say a game comes out with permadeath, right so you make a avatar or what ever ya wanna call it. Ok so you spend about 10 to 15 minutes getting that character to look just how you want and you choose your class, K now you're out in the world ya just started and you get you're first quest. Right so you head out and on the way you run into a big pack of enemies no ones around to help what do ya do, ok well you try to fight them but they kill you.... well now you have to start over. Then you make a new one you set out thinking this time you're ready for it, suddenly a player comes up and you think he wants to help but instead he kills you and laughs at you. you start over and there he is again he chases you down and kills you, now just wash rinse repeat. Do ya see what I'm getting at folks, in theory yes it seems like a neat idea to make a challenge but when you do that you're inviting the jerk players who get pleasure from messing with people like that. They are everywhere and you cannot escape them. So how fun would the game be if you couldn't even make it out of the starting gate without creating a new character. You may say that that wont happen but it will, look what people did to WoW, they dont care about the story or quests or groups they just wanna buy twinked toons on eBay and fight in the arenas. They made a MMO into Mortal Kombat, I mean come on think before you say something. Games are only as "hard" as you make them out to be, its not what you play but who you play it with. In the end yes a bigger challenge would be great but lets stop the extreme mobile for a minute and try staying down to earth here. Yes ask for a bigger more difficult game one that has a progressive challenge where at lower levels its tuff going but still doable, and later step it up a bit like FFXI did. but asking for something to be so hard that you spend more time restarting then actually enjoying the game world is not a smart idea people would get annoyed and why would you pay a monthly fee for a game you cannot fully enjoy. Be sensible atleast please. Now granted I have been a gamer since I was 4 years old I'm 29 now I was around in the old days of the original Mario Bros. being the great game of the day, and i can't tell you how manny actual allowance dollars I spent in quarters at the arcades. What i can say is, new ideas are good but don't go overboard and think about more than just what you want think about what you want that will truly work and work well. |
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Originally posted by Promeus
Brother, I feel the same. In fact, I posted something like this in a thread about the direction current MMO design is headed and I got FLAMED!! Flamed badly I was told that games are supposed to be "fun" not "work". I was told that being "punished" for failure was a bad thing. Someone even told me that the games we're getting today are more complex than games like FFXI. More challenging. I was told, almost exactly, that the challenges I (and apparently 'we') want in an MMO game are an outmoded idea and that if I don't like it I should get out of the genre. Fortunately FF is still going strong, and there are other gems out there like EVE that are still worth my money.
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Originally posted by Promeus
Do you really have the balls for it? If you do you can set up the challenge on your own. First do not resurrect the moment you died in game. Delete the character and start all over. Second, do not go out with full armor or weapon, go out nake and use ur fists. Third, do not team up with people, turn off all chats, and all hints. Explore on your own. A game can be as hard as you dare try. The only limitations is your imaginations, and your guts to try it out. On a less ridicuous scale, yes we as a family team has tried things to dice it up. We tried clearing instances without heals. We tried finding ways to sneak pass, we tried to force time limits on dungeon runs, meaning no full heal up mana up before next fight. We can try a lot of "challenges". You look like a big boy, you sure do not need the developer to hand you a challenge. |
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Originally posted by X-Porter
Brother, I feel the same. In fact, I posted something like this in a thread about the direction current MMO design is headed and I got FLAMED!! Flamed badly I was told that games are supposed to be "fun" not "work". I was told that being "punished" for failure was a bad thing. Someone even told me that the games we're getting today are more complex than games like FFXI. More challenging. I was told, almost exactly, that the challenges I (and apparently 'we') want in an MMO game are an outmoded idea and that if I don't like it I should get out of the genre. Fortunately FF is still going strong, and there are other gems out there like EVE that are still worth my money.
If you feel that pain is fun, go punish yourself. Why ask a developer to punish everyone, so that you will feel better for yourself? Can't you impose those penalties on your own characters willingly? |
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rounner
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 9/07/06
Some are born to sweet delight. |
The flaw with the 'so delete your character' comments is that perma death can only work with modified game mechanics. Playing perma death in an existing mmo is a fail for the reasons described a few posts above mine. In my opinion, a perma death game could only work in a significantly different style of game, with less emphasis on kill or be killed and more on other things, like exploration, puzzle solving, crafting etc. To avoid lag death, or dying because you crashed during a fight, you'd need a different server response from heart beat time outs. To avoid zerg ganking you'd need different PvP rules, and perhaps a tiered death system or something more creative. In short, it would take something new to work. I am not a propnent by the way and don't know how to solve all the problems with it, I'm just saying making arguments like 'well delete your char if you die then' is not very constructive. Take the most boring, least creative, least strategic and most heavily scripted parts of rpgs and ditch everything else and there you have MMOs today. - Fennris |
Originally posted by shad0w99 It's easier to get in, that's it. To actually receive a degree, you still half to put down alot of cash, And put the time and effort into the course to receive a degree. You realize college is 100% optional, you "Dont half to go". People who choose to go to college, and better themselves are hardly morons. if you can get a degree, you've proven you have the skills or at least the mindset to succeed and have it. Degrees mean alot, and they always will. If you have a degree into (Automotive mechanic) Your hirability goes up 90%. Because the auto industry is ALWAYS looking for mechanics due to so many cars. Not to mention it is a VERY difficult trade to learn and succeed let alone excell in. "Just because you get a degree doesn't mean you will take it anywhere meaningfull, you still half to apply the skills you learn to make yourself successfull" Some people only talk sh!t online. I'll talk sh!t online and i'll say it to your face. |
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I don't because I don't have a problem with the build of games now I don't run out and get the most uber gear and beat the most uber dungeons of any game I take my time and I'm not a casual player either I just don't rush to what the dev's tell me the end of the game is and therefore I don't have the problems so many of us seem to have.People say these games are carebear but not everyone can just go and run top level raids from wow as I recall it nor LOTRO as I see them now so I see that there is some challenge there maybe not one good enough for you but there is one.I'm like most people in the world in that I want to explore out of desire not necessity if I'm on a damn quest to get something I want to find it not look at huge grass fields for 20-30 just to find a damn camp site with a backpack there show me where the damn pack is when I want to explore the area I will don't force me to waste my valuable play time walking around looking for things. I'm hard pressed to think of a single game that I've played that has all solo content without any group quests,I'll go as far as to say I have never played a game where I successfully completed every group quest. Item decay is infact enough of a loss of coin as a death penalty for me not to mention the rez sicknesses that usually impair your characters abilities for various amounts of time.open world pvp why in the hell would I want that?That would be like aspiring to live in the worse ghetto in the world or even worse a warzone.I'm much more interested in dictating my play style and session and less on the devs or even worse another player to determine it for me. I just think that for what yo guys think you are crying for there are simply far too few of you who really want this kind of experience and as such it is not a viable business opportunity for most companies Darkfall is supposed to fit this bill in a lot of ways and I hope it's successful because I like games they are fun and I like people to have fun but sorry most people just no longer consider these types of experiences fun. |
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Originally posted by Bakkoda24
Yeah those countries just make games that take 16 months to get out of the starter zone unless of course you are one of the gold farmers paid 6.50 a day to play the game for 16 hours a day. |
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Originally posted by shad0w99
That's the truth. Morons will call it elitism of course, but that doesn't diminish the fact of it. Here in the States, its reached epidemic proportions given the political shift over the last two years and the way people are rewarded for being average (and have come to expect it). Its inevitable that this mindset trickles into entertainment, and gaming. Everyone has to be a winner because achievement, success, and working for what you've got have all been successfully demonized by our leaders. Now, I don't take my games quite that seriously, I like to blow off steam in casual-friendly LotRo for example, but there's no denying the truth of shadow99's post, and the sad fact that the mindset has so permeated our society that its even trickled over into gaming. |
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I have mixed feelings on this. When I was younger and had plenty of time and little real world responsibilties, I loved the hardcore games. That's all there were back then. My first game was Islands of Kesmai on Compuserve. There were two types of death. Normal death was what in todays game would be considered brutal. Total equipment drop, corpse runs, loss of experience, etc. If fighting certain critters, you could be eaten and that was permadeath. Obviously the reward for beating that hungry dragon was huge and very few had that type of equipment. The "ganking" was actually handled in-game by players. It was legal to attack anyone, but you were marked as a "pk" (player killer). There was actually an entire guild named ....bh for bounty hunter. I don't even remember a level restriction on attacking other players but if you were a pk you wouldn't bother with the low levels as they gave no exp and had no equipment. On the other hand killing someone near your level and you were richly rewarded by getting all of their hard won equipment and I believe it was 1/4 of their experience. Still, it was rare to have a pk in the game and they were hunted relentlessly. That being said the succesful pk'ers actually made the game much more interesting. Nobody ever really capped on this game. I remember the highest level being 21. I also played Gemstone on Genie and Kingdom of Drakkar which both had a similar setup. I don't know if it was the fact that those were my first experiences, my age, or the fact that the genre was brand new and there were no alternatives that made it so engrossing, but it certainly was. Now I am obviously much older and although I don't have the time to invest and would never be able to even enjoy that same type of game, I still think todays games are much too easy. Like the OP I would rather be able to actually get a rush from exploring a new area, knowing that the price of death is so high. It really got the adrenaline flowing. I think if the game is made in such a way that the journey is as much fun as the destination, it is certainly doable even in today's instant gratification society. Just recently I returned to online gaming and was thrilled intitally but left ultimately dissatisified when I realized that I could level so fast that I didn't even need to know the backstory or what the quests were. Just click and move on until you hit...what? I don't have the time nor dedication to "raid", so I end up trying each class for a few levels, then move on.
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Originally posted by veritas_X
That's the truth. Morons will call it elitism of course, but that doesn't diminish the fact of it. Here in the States, its reached epidemic proportions given the political shift over the last two years and the way people are rewarded for being average (and have come to expect it). Its inevitable that this mindset trickles into entertainment, and gaming. Everyone has to be a winner because achievement, success, and working for what you've got have all been successfully demonized by our leaders. Now, I don't take my games quite that seriously, I like to blow off steam in casual-friendly LotRo for example, but there's no denying the truth of shadow99's post, and the sad fact that the mindset has so permeated our society that its even trickled over into gaming. Bs this is a crock of you know what, other than the fact it's obvously a politcally motivated statement that shows only that you are not a fan of the US leading party now it doesn't address the fact that plenty ways have been suggested that you guys can creatively make all the things you ask for in a game true want permadeath delete your damn character want a challenge to a fight use the level scale or stop changing your damn armour every 5 levels.And since you control your permadeath if you only died because you dc'd heck you don't have to even petition a gm just don't delete the toon. Maybe the real problem is some of you guys are just sooo uber that anything limited to your monitor and a keyboard will never truly challenge you anymore (which is easy to see why for all of the time we all spend on them).I like my games just the way they are I guess that makes me a moron |
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Originally posted by jaxsundane Bs this is a crock of you know what, other than the fact it's obvously a politcally motivated statement that shows only that you are not a fan of the US leading party now it doesn't address the fact that plenty ways have been suggested that you guys can creatively make all the things you ask for in a game true want permadeath delete your damn character want a challenge to a fight use the level scale or stop changing your damn armour every 5 levels.And since you control your permadeath if you only died because you dc'd heck you don't have to even petition a gm just don't delete the toon. Maybe the real problem is some of you guys are just sooo uber that anything limited to your monitor and a keyboard will never truly challenge you anymore (which is easy to see why for all of the time we all spend on them).I like my games just the way they are I guess that makes me a moron
No, your lack of reading comprehension makes you a moron. If you read what I wrote, you'll notice that I am a fan of casual games, and have no wish for them to get harder. Shadow's post was correct, however, in that it is a sign of the times. |
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Originally posted by Promeus
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Originally posted by Orthedos If you feel that pain is fun, go punish yourself. Why ask a developer to punish everyone, so that you will feel better for yourself? Can't you impose those penalties on your own characters willingly?
No. That's not the idea. Taking a quick look at Dictionary.com, "Game" gives the following definitions: 1. an amusement or pastime: children's games. 3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators. 8. anything resembling a game, as in requiring skill, endurance, or adherence to rules: the game of diplomacy. 10. fun; sport of any kind; joke: That's about enough of your games. 15. Archaic. fighting spirit; pluck. What I hear from you is in Yellow, what I'm saying is Blue. I left out the bits about wild animals and the meat thereof. The site is publicly available for anyone who wants to see what I cherry-picked here. You'll notice two of my points involve adherence to a set of rules. That's the deal breaker, here. A game is a social contract wherein two or more players agree to operate within a given set of rules. I fail, I lose X. You fail, you lose X. It's fair. The only reason to enter a game under a handicap like you're talking about is to gain additional rewards. I'll take double the death penalty if I get triple or quadruple the reward. No problem. Better yet, if we're teamed and we win I get my full reward with your (zero) penalty and you get your minimal reward as usual. Telling players to handicap themselves to play the way they want is about the same as telling cheats and hackers to go ahead and play the way they want to. The game is the same for everyone, or it's not a game anymore. |
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Antipathy
Novice Member
Joined: 3/29/06
Ex wow players never die, they just come to MMORPG.com to bitch |
I've played perma-death. But not in an MMO. A while back I went through a stage of playing angband variants. They were massive single player dungeon crawls, with primitive graphics, but still with many of the same elements that crop up in other RPGs, such as WoW. It was completely normal to play those games with permadeath, and whilst there were ways of avoiding such deaths, they were generally seen by the player base as cheating. Completing one of those games without dying was hard, and generally involved an awful lot of grinding and very cautious play. For example: Here's a table for the recommended minimum abilities you need to survive at various depths into the dungeon: * 1000': Free Action, See Invisible Those abilities commonly came from items. If you didn't have the appropriate items, then you had to keep grinding until they dropped, which could sometimes take forever. But anyone would ignore those rules at their peril - otherwise, they'd run a small risk of seeing a message such as "You climb down the stairs. The Dracolisk breaths on you for lots of poison damage. You die", without a single chance to react, and defend yourself. Without the gear, you couldn't take the initial damage, and survive long enough to come up with some sort of way to run away. And even players following the above rules would still have a chance of meeting unavoidable death through bad luck. So lets consider what would happen if we introduced Perma-death into an MMO with a current rule set. Lets pick Warcraft, since most people are familiar with it. What sort of rules would we come up with in order to maximise the chance of survival? For simplicity, we're only consider a PvE server. Sample rules for never dying in warcraft. Never enter a zone higher than your level unless you are already familiar with it and know exactly what's there Never attempt a quest higher than your level unless you already know it well. Never attempt a group quest unless you are 100% confident you can complete it. Never enter an area that is patrolled by an elite you can't easily kill. For example never quest in the north Silverpine forest until you are ready to kill the elite that patrols there. Never enter any free for all PvP zone, such as Wintergrasp, or PvP objectives in the Plaguelands Never enter an instance with players you don't know - since any unknown jerk could train mobs on you resulting in your death. Especially if that player has an aggro dump to survive himself (e.g. rogue vanish). Refuse to ever group with anyone who suffers form lag or random DCs. At the slightest sign of these symptoms, leave the group. Avoid any instance with quickly respawning monsters - such as the Scarlet Monastery. Otherwise, respawning mobs could catch you by surprise on the way out, and combined with a little bad luck, that will be the end of your game. Never enter a battleground. Get decent crafted gear before entering any normal mode end game instance. Refuse to group with anyone who doesn't do the same. Get decent gear from normal mode end game instances before even thinking about trying heroic mode. Refuse to group with anyone who doesn't do the same. Always verify before doing a heroic that everyone present has done the same instance on normal mode, and has also memorised the standard tactics for every boss. If a boss requires fast reactions from players (e.g. step out of the fire) then verify everyone has those reactions before attempting the boss. When entering instances, always bring the perfect combination of classes for the task. Never risk a sub-optimal choice and cross your fingers. For example, never, ever, even consider taking a paladin healer to the Halls of Lightning (and if you are a paladin healer, never consider going there). Don't start raiding until you have the best possible gear from heroics. Before starting a raid, check each player individually, to ensure they have appropriate gear, consumables, and have memorised the tactics for the bosses involved. For complex encounters, practice tactics beforehand, by doing things such as rehearsing spreading out at the appropriate moments. Never attempt any boss that you aren't 100% certain you can kill first time. There are no wipe nights, only death. Never go afk in any area that isn't 100% safe. Even in stealth. Is that the sort of ultra-cautious game you guys want to play? It's not remotely my cup of tea.
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Everyone who is against hardcore / permadeath games and all you do is compare it to normal games you all need to think out of the box a little bit. In fact doing so would probally increase your success in real life. Heres a scenario. Permadeath / Hardcore pvp game.... ready watch how easy this is....... Blue Zone- Citys Non pvp Gray Zone- PvP and your corpse is lootable when you die however no perma death. Red Zone- Pvp Corpse bank and gold lootable and permadeath. You can also add some pvp rules if they arent 10 up or 10 down your skill level you cant kill them...wow no more level 1's getting slaughtered by lvl 100's .... oo but what if lvl 10's come and kill the lvl 1's wait I can solve that as well make the level bonuses small so a level 1 or 2 can possibly team up and kill a lvl 10. |
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andmiller
 Novice Member
Joined: 6/10/06
dr34d0g taught me everything I know. Don't make me "show a fighting move".... |
Originally posted by Promeus
Clearly you are an untapped talent for game design. You should be sending out resume's rather than posting. These ideas are revolutionary to say the least. There is a reason this would never work. That reason is that this type of game would appeal to > 1% of the MMO player-base. As for success in real life, there is no saying more annoying than "thinking outside of the box". It is the most overused phrase in the history of corporate America. |
Originally posted by andmiller
Clearly you are an untapped talent for game design. You should be sending out resume's rather than posting. These ideas are revolutionary to say the least. There is a reason this would never work. That reason is that this type of game would appeal to > 1% of the MMO player-base. As for success in real life, there is no saying more annoying than "thinking outside of the box". It is the most overused phrase in the history of corporate America. Well I'm glad I was able to annoy you. I love tapping into the emotional side of people through their computer monitor. |
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Originally posted by Promeus Well I'm glad I was able to annoy you. I love tapping into the emotional side of people through their computer monitor.
I'm not sure how you figure that. My suggestion would be if this is what you really want .. is to ask a few MMO developers to make this kind of game and if they say no.. have them explain to you why. There really isn't any reason for anyone to get pissy... There is a lack of PvP dependant MMO's for a reason... there are no MMO's with perma-death for a reason. If you want that to change... you need to convince people there is more of a market than there has been. Most PvP MMO's (notice I said most) fail and the reason for this can be quite clearly seen by playing one at launch and also by reading the forums. Toss perma death in on top of that and the result is also... fairly obvious. I'm not trying to disagree with you to be honest. I'm just saying when it cost what it cost to make an MMO... you need to make these people believe they can make money by selling what you want. I don't think you can do that on mmorpg.com but... you can start trying various ways of approaching development companies... Being able to choose the skills you want to use, offers much less variety than pre-made class based systems. -Future Game Developer |
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Antipathy
Novice Member
Joined: 3/29/06
Ex wow players never die, they just come to MMORPG.com to bitch |
Originally posted by Promeus
I don't think in the box. I think in abstractions. Which is something the majority of the population of this planet is incapable of. I've found that whenever I explain things in the way I think them, I tend to leave people behind and am misunderstood. (for anyone who understands Myers-Briggs personality types, I'm intuitive, whilst 70% of the population is the opposite (sensing)).
So I explain myself with a concrete example (WoW). That doesn't mean my thinking is limited in that way, or that I can't think beyond it. Instead, I'd suggest your powers of abstraction are limited. You fail to observe that the overall theme of the points I was making about WoW didn't actually rely on the details of the game - the theme would apply anywhere with Permadeath.
The only sensible way to survive in a game with Permadeath is to be ultra-cautious, and to only ever take well calculated risks, and to do so with as much information as possible. To me, playing any MMO in that way would be incredibly boring.
I like to stretch myself, try things out, see what I can achieve. Can I solo that difficult quest? Can we continue and complete this heroic with 4-people instead of just giving up? What would happen if we changed the tactics against this boss a little. With perma death it simply wouldn't be worth the risk of trying these things, and the opportunity for imagination and creativity when facing a challenge would be greatly diminished. |
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ronan32
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 8/19/05
I will never play an mmorpg with Microtransactions |
Originally posted by patrikd23
if i could of made any game i would of made wow, i hate the game but i would be rich as hell. |
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What I find down right funny is that the "casual players" are feriously aginst any hardcore type game. I ask why? Why do they care if a harder game comes out? Its not like the casual friendly games are going to stop coming out. Hell theres a whole list of em on this site. I personally think its because a big majority of casual gamers just hop from game to game, and if a more difficult game comes out, thats 1 less game for them to hop too. I am not a full loot hardcore PvP'er I was happy for that crowd when I first saw DF I was glad for them, Its just to bad an ameture company at best made it and it is not a good as it should be. Another thing I think is funny is that when I mention the new SE MMO, people are saying they want it to be casual freindly MMO. There is not 1 spec of info on it and people already are wanting it to be a casual easy mode MMO. Thats just pathetic and I hope SE does not give in, I personally think they wont because of FFXI success. (Yes it is a sucess of a game to still be around, and even SE numerous times said its a success for them). Edit: As for perm death. I am not for that. Now if there were some type of age system where your character died after so long and you could pass your gear and items on to your next character then I could possible see me playing something like that maybe, but in general I am not a fan of perm death, I like adding "value" (I have never sold one) to my characters. Waiting for: Final Fantasy XIV |
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I agree - if you make the game hard - only those who actually enjoy a challenge pay the monthly fee - and that is where the money comes from. Those who play, don't like it and never pay the monthly fee (most games give you the first month free), cause the game to be unsuccessful. In this stressful world, which is becoming ever more stressful due to economic conditions, people want to play a game to get their heads out of a world they do not like or understand - Reality. If they can not win easily many of them are not getting what they need most - a sense of self-worth. Hence easy games make money, hard games become popular among us True gamers but are mourned after awhile because they did not sustain enough of a cash flow for the Company to maintain it. Sad but True - for example Shadowbane... easily one of the better PvP games but one which never got the mass support of the "casual" gamer. It is closing even the play for free servers now, may it RIP. |
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You are forgetting about the real life factor. After a hard weeks work and I finally have some free time, I really do not want to be ganked by some 10 year old and lose all my loot. That would really tick me off :) Games don't need to be majorly complex to be successful or enjoyed. |
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Originally posted by veritas_X Bs this is a crock of you know what, other than the fact it's obvously a politcally motivated statement that shows only that you are not a fan of the US leading party now it doesn't address the fact that plenty ways have been suggested that you guys can creatively make all the things you ask for in a game true want permadeath delete your damn character want a challenge to a fight use the level scale or stop changing your damn armour every 5 levels.And since you control your permadeath if you only died because you dc'd heck you don't have to even petition a gm just don't delete the toon. Maybe the real problem is some of you guys are just sooo uber that anything limited to your monitor and a keyboard will never truly challenge you anymore (which is easy to see why for all of the time we all spend on them).I like my games just the way they are I guess that makes me a moron
No, your lack of reading comprehension makes you a moron. If you read what I wrote, you'll notice that I am a fan of casual games, and have no wish for them to get harder. Shadow's post was correct, however, in that it is a sign of the times.
No I'm simply not a moron no matter how much cry baby name calling you do but you seem to ignore the fact I pointed out your assanine political statements for trash that doesn't belong in this thread at all and that my friend makes you in fact the moron. |
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