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gamerstuff
Apprentice Member
Joined: 10/25/08
"Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof." |
I dont think everyone is understanding the design aspects of any type of mmo game. Because and Mmo deals with a massive amount of players at one time it IS SUPPOSE "to cater to many different players". In order to establish a successful community a variety of people/players is required. Guilds would never be successful if you had a game full of "leader" mentality players. Communities would never flourish if you have a mmo that only attracts solo pve players. Most of you almost understand mmo design, but i do not think most of you really get it. To stay on topic WAR failed in nearly anyway. The only contribution it made to the mmo world of gaming was public quest. Nothing more. The developers stated that WAR was to be the football of MMO. You log on and just play to have fun. Not really though. Some posters claim that WAR's and Wows lack of consequences and easy mode is the evolution of game design. This is completely false. In order to create a successful MMO you must have balance. Wow was successful in its early days clearly because they found the balance. Hardcore / Casual could play which means you have a variety of players which equals a solid community. It takes the approach, "easy to play hard to master". Once an mmo contains extreme penalties or even extreme convenience the game starts isolating other players. Its impossible for a successful game to survive without a consequence. Just like kinetic energy cannot be destroyed you cannot expect to make a choice in game or Real life with out a consequence. "That tennis ball will bouce no matter what" That is a rule of existance. Pvp has no meaning if it does not penalize the loser. That is the pure point of pvp to cause grief and proove your talent. Pve must has no challenge without a consequence system. The phrase "time sink" is bull nearly because all things we do revolves around time. You cant do a quest without it taking time. You cant do hunt down a player pvp without taking time. You cant expect consequence to not take time. That would be insane. Games are played just so they take time we wouldn't want to spend anywhere else. I do recall someone stating that old school gamers are no longer the target audience. You are clearly stupid as bricks. I will give you a accurate example. Lets look at the console gaming division. Nintendo as well as the wii cater to nothing but casual gamers and making games as easy(stupid proof) as possible. As all gamers know this has attracted more shovel than ever seen in gaming history to the nintendo. If you call this casual / easy way of a game design the future, then i'm sure you belong with the nintendo wii fanbase. Now, after all that i can say "I agree with the OP, WAR is dumb and Wow is getting there". However, I do not have any solid knowledge/gameplayed experience with DF, so I won't comment on that.
Working on it |
Originally posted by popinjay
Ok, Now take these from Blizzard since they started with Mark Morhaime and Chris Metzen .... Warcraft: Orcs & Humans (1994) TBC ---> personal flying mounts in real 3D vertical worlds you can land anywhere. Anyone surprised why War couldn't touch the same quality ??? Ok, we will have to wait what the quality of SC2 and Diablo3 will be ..... :)))))
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Originally posted by Zorndorf
Ok, Now take these from Blizzard since they started with Mark Morhaime and Chris Metzen .... Warcraft: Orcs & Humans (1994) TBC ---> personal flying mounts in real 3D vertical worlds you can land anywhere. Anyone surprised why War couldn't touch the same quality ??? Ok, we will have to wait what the quality of SC2 and Diablo3 will be ..... :)))))
You can't fly you mounts in the old world so you can't land anywhere you want. WOTLK, yeah that only happens in one zone and WAR has the same thing all over. I am not a fan of any of the above games but WOW is not much better than WAR,it is a bit better but not by much. I think VG pawnzs both them games hands down but it only for a select few who like the old style EQ1 game-play but it still has more features than WOW and WAR. Jah Rasta For I. |
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Originally posted by warpp You can't fly you mounts in the old world so you can't land anywhere you want. WOTLK, yeah that only happens in one zone and WAR has the same thing all over. I am not a fan of any of the above games but WOW is not much better than WAR,it is a bit better but not by much. I think VG pawnzs both them games hands down but it only for a select few who like the old style EQ1 game-play but it still has more features than WOW and WAR.
I am talking of very succesful newly designed games and design features here that Mythic just is and was not up to. And I just showed ONE example of free 3D worlds included by Blizzard in 2007, so state of the art and not capable in War. As you clearly don't know what phasing is, I wonder which one "zone" you'd refer to? It shows you don't even play WotlK and still wants to make a comment. And nope War doesn't have any phasing at all. Phasing is the complete change of a world to a character once he does chain quests and it happens a lot both in the DK starting areas and in the higher zones of Northrend. Phasing occurs without loading screens and makes for a complete new experience in mmorpg's. I think the list above of Blizzard games and then comparing this list with what Mythic "made", shows a staggering difference. And people can conclude whatever they want out of these lists. But there can only be one conclusion: Blizzard games rock.
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"Phasing is the complete change of a world to a character once he does chain quests and it happens a lot both in the DK starting areas and in the higher zones of Northrend. Phasing occurs without loading screens and makes for a complete new experience in mmorpg's."
Well tbh in the DK area the phasing just the simple moving of your character to different maps and the de/re spawning of art assets... SWG did this on a smaller scale before WotL was released. And should we talk flying... .. . CoH whips WoW on this so hard i'm sure a potential warcraft 4 will feel the sting.
And please... Don't compare a newborn with a soon to be first-grader... If any comparison should be made do it with the state of the game whne WOW was released. Or even better don't bother comparing at all, tuck your e-peens back and understand that different people want differant things and never will there be a game that pleases everyone.
Oh and if anyone need to know... i can mess you my gaming resume. This have been a good conversation |
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It's really all the developers fault. All the developers want anymore is money, and that clouds their will to be creative and try something new.
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Originally posted by Abrahmm
No serious raid guild in Wow wants even to raid without deadly boss and about a million other add-ons these days.... Is that an indication of a rise in WoW difficulty, or a rise in player laziness? Most people complain that WoW is too easy now, yet people use all of these add-ons to make it easier. If you simply want to talk about raids, sure, games may be more complex today. I personally don't care for raiding much. You want to talk about nearly anything beyond raids, games are degressing violently. From crafting, to social tools, player interaction, character building, risk vs. reward, you name it, it has been dumbed down in recent years. Just compare SWG crafting to WoWs, or compare Guild War's Skill system to any random generic "Talent points" system, or Eve's political and social interactions to any other game out there, things are getting simpler and simpler. Can't be denied. "a million other add-ons" and "too easy" That perfectly describes why I quit WoW and wont look back; the game gets easier with every patch. I seriously think Blizzard has confused "casual" with "stupid." Hell, they even built in a threat-meter in the game, one of several add-ons i swore to never touch. Oh and this bonus-stupidity: why the heck was the aquatic form made a sea lion..?! Sea lions are mammals for crying out loud! THEY CANT BREATH UNDER WATER! /rant off |
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rensta
Novice Member
Joined: 9/19/08
"Girlfriends come and go but epic items are soulbound" |
im with you men! |
Originally posted by Adrammelech
Very insightful post. I couldn't agree more. |
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Jackio81
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/11/08
The MMO genre as a whole is a running joke considering a 5+ year old game is so dominant. |
I've said it once I'll say it again, WAR was made for casual PvPers, unfortunately missing the fact that just because someone likes to play casually doesn't mean they're morons. The fact if you're going to make a game surrounding PvP, you need to have a high skill cap (learning curve) to keep it interesting.
For all the bugs, the unresponsiveness of abilities, low end story content, linear zone instancing, horrible fortress layout design, horrible overly spanned out zone designs, god awfully boring PvE, worse crafting system EVAAHH, plus the f**kload of scenarios that further thinned out the popluation and made RvR seem non existant.
If only.....if only....they could have made the game with a high skill cap and not as retardedly brainless and repetitive as they did, players would have still given this game a chance.
Game play will always conquer all....and Mythic seriously missed the boat when it came to this conclusion. But hey, can't help but to think Mythic wasn't totally at fault and EA did play a role in WARs epic failure...=/
Anyways, back when I was trolling the warhammeralliance.com forums, I made these examples in an effort to piss off a lot of WAR kiddies over the argument I made how WoW had more open RvR potential than WAR. There being more WAR in World of Warcraft than in all of WARhammer....lol
Hope you enjoy...=P
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Originally posted by Bakkoda24
had to highlight this as it made me laugh, yeah wow losing a couple hundred, even a few thousand of you "hardcore experienced" players is really gonna make a difference to a game played by millions, wise up, wow isnt going anywhere but up and as for this smart people comment.. jeezus mate.. |
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Originally posted by PatchDay
EQ Classic stablished the hardcore PVE genre. If you refer to EQ post Plains of Power expansion, then yes you are right, and it was SOE's doing. SOE established the carebear PVE genre. |
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More old timers complaining that new games are too easy. Move along. |
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Originally posted by Bruticus_XI Moving along right now is going down to a pitch full of garbage. So be my guest if you enjoy that, but I will rather not, thanks. |
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Originally posted by altairzq Moving along right now is going down to a pitch full of garbage. So be my guest if you enjoy that, but I will rather not, thanks.
Man, 8-tracks were soooo much better than CDs. |
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Originally posted by gamerstuff
You know you look "as stupid as a brick" here, right? How does that Wii analogy prove anything? In fact, I'll give you a better example: Halo. Halo's a very dumbed down FPS, yet it's one of the most popular games out there. Name your favorite "hardcore" or "old school" FPS to come out on the PC or otherwise and the popularity of that game pales in comparison to Halo. Hell, look at TF2. That game made Team Fortress Classic, an inarguably old school game, and made it casual. To prove how stupid you are even further, consider this: right around when TF2 was released a mod called Team Fortress Forever was released. It's basically Team Fortress Classic wither better graphics. What did people choose? TF2 of course, and now nobody plays Team Fortress Forever. Here is an example where "old school gamers" had a chance to choose between an "old school" game and a more casual friendly one, yet they chose the latter. Why? That's because you're being driven by nostalgia. Sure, you have fond memories of old games and you think it takes a special person to play and appreciate those games, but that isn't so. People, young or old, care about good games. Some, like you, pretend like the games you once played were good because you're only thinking of the emotions you had, but you're forgetting that during that era there were no better option and at the time playing EQ was revolutionary, but if you drive off to some island and make someone choose between EQ and WoW who's never played or heard of MMOs before, they'll choose WoW simply because EQ and other "old school" games are craptastic compared to the improvements made by "casual" games. Back on the topic of Warhammer Online, only an idiot would cry about the fact that it is a casual game. Then again, judging by what is considered casual, every FPS is considered casual. If you're stupid enough to whine that an MMO doesn't kick you in the balls for dying in what is supposed to be a game, then I don't know what to say. If you're intelligent and appreciate the fact that a game don't treat player death like having to go through an IRS audit, then welcome to the enlightened side of society and say hello to the majority of MMO players. Either way, WAR is the most successful PvP based game on the market right now. It may suck in a lot of ways, but what are your options? WoW? Even in PvP servers Horde and Alliance players are too afraid to fight each other outside of the sterilized instances. Darkfall? The game failed hard due to the fact that half the promised features never made it in and the ones that are in are broken. Age of Conan? Well, there's some hope for the game yet, but until they fix that pesky "jump around like a monkey so you don't get hit" playstyle, it's not going to be a viable PvP game. Eve Online? Great game, but unless you're into Sci-Fi and you have a group of friends already playing the game to help you out, it's not going to be an enjoyable experience when you first start out. WAR is basically the only game that encourages PvP. Now only if they made the combat less frustrating. Being AoEed to death in front of a keep door is not a fun experience. |
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Originally posted by whatamidoing
I love how this scrub mentions DF after he specifically stated that Darkfall sucks too (and trust me, it's as close to suck as you will get for something you actually have to spend money on). Not to mention EVE is like 6 or 7 years old and UO...please. We want a new game that isn't some garbage like WAR. I didn't even have to play more than 5 minutes of that game to make my decision (luckily I did the open beta and didn't actually buy it). Exclamation marks over quest holders heads and map markers everywhere? check. Lame WoW combat? check. No death penalty? check. What a piece of sh!t. The problem lies with the games being put out lately (and by lately I mean for the past four or five years). As soon as every company tried to ride the WoW train this genre has been one stagnant, watered down, n00bfest.
Darkfall is not that bad of a game. Seriously, I saw hundreds of threads from so called 'hardcore pks/pve'ers' begging for more mmos. PVE'ers got Vanguard. PK's got countless- starport, old UO, EVE (which has NEW graphics upgrade), Shadowbane, Linkrealms (both for PK/PVE), and list goes on and on I'm calling BS on all these posts asking for hardcore MMOs. Either play what's out there or this genre just isn't for you. Last I checked, Call of Duty 4 is still out there. PErhaps you guys can find happiness there
It gets old looking at so called 'vets' cry for new MMO. And when they come out, yall either ignore them or still play WoW For pretty much any naysayer I promise you I can look at their post history and they most all play WoW or LOTRO 'Hardcore gamers my arse! |
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DoctaDecay
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/10/09
There is no such thing as innocence - only degrees of guilt. |
Do not post your useless ranting. It only wastes our time and attempts at influencing us. A lot of people like a lot of games. See it, accept it, move on. |
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i personally find warhammer to be fun but its something i only want to play in short bursts . it would be ideal for me if they had a two week sub option or time card like city of heroes . it really would nt hold my interest month after month . i dont give a hoot weather a game is hard core or not as long as its fun . warhammers pvp is a lot of fun but the game lacks a depth to it beyond that . maybe that will changed in time personally i prefer the revamped age of conan to warhammer a tthe moment . i might give vanguard another look at some point as well before i think about returning to war for another month . i think the thing that really kills warhammer for me is paradoxically the thing i also like about it the scenarios . the game could be improved over night if they remove general xp from scenario play . this would mean people would have to do pve to level as well as do the scenarios . i doubt this is likly to happen which is why warhammer is a niche game rather than the massive success it should have been . |
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Dear Jackio81
I love your maps... But is it not abit unfair to compare a Vanilla server in WAR with a PvP in WoW . You seem to like to do maps, do please show me the open world PvP on a Core server in WoW.
Or perhaps that does not fit with your propaganda machine.. i do not know. If so i have a few nice bridges to sell... This have been a good conversation |
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admriker4
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 10/26/06
"Give me control of a nation''s money and I care not who makes the laws" |
sorry to go off-topic but i cant seem to start any new threads. There isnt an option to "Post Message" below the body like there normally is. I tried preview to see if it would pop up there but nada. is anyone else having this issue ? |
Originally posted by Adrammelech
This is a poor analogy, my friend. In chess the "Death Penalty" is that you lose. Simple. You didn't "come in second". You don't get a do-over. In professional sports, if you lose, you drop in ranking. Lose enough and you don't make the playoffs. lf you make the playoffs and lose you don't get the championship. By your reasoning every team would make the playoffs and then they would all play until they all got the cup. Everyone wins because it's a game and it's supposed to be fun, right? I guess we just expect different things in our entertainment choices. That's fine. That's why TV shows I like get cancelled and "Dancing With the Stars" goes on. I can still find something to watch elsewhere. I'll check out that book you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it will just make me mad. Otherwise, I'll continue to spend my time and money on games that keep me engaged and hope game developers come up with more of what I find worthwhile in the future. |
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1. EVE. You may not like space drama (as I don't) but it doesn't change the fact that EVE has way more subs and FAR less turnover than Warhammer. Just because you don't like the style, you cannot discount it's standings.
Again, most playing still claim they are having fun in guilds/alliances there for the time being, they just want them to fix bugs. People are a forgiving lot and will stick around for a bit if they feel the core of a game is there. You don't have to look any further than WAR; Mythic has been promising subs the moon for over half a year already, while people have been re-rolling their sixth alt talking about "WAR has a lot of potential", lol.
"You know, you have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it's almost embarrassing to listen to you." Zbigniew Brzezinski to Joe Scarborough regarding Clinton and the Middle East on the "Morning Joe" program. |
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Originally posted by Vrazule
And here's where you are mistaken. I am a member of the MMO community that makes game changing decisions. We call ourselves "Customers". Now, you win. Game developers go where the money is. Currently the money is with the "Gimme" generation of gamers, that's why so many new games have sucked. Millions of "Customers" made Hannah Montana a rock star. Personally I'll stick with AC/DC and Led Zepplin. Are they wrong? Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure that "Stairway to Heaven" will be heard long after "I Wear a Blonde Wig (or whatever)" is forgotten. Time will tell. In the meantime, I'll accept my "Death Penalty" here and come back better than before.
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I personally love the warhammer universe so when WAR came out I was very excited I pre-ordered the CE and everything. IMO it was very boring however the RVR is fun but as soon as you realize that it is meaningless to win or to even die it gets old quickly. I wanted a dark, gritty, and unforgiving fanstasy world that the books present but sadly that just didnt happen. The game is not terrible by any means there are features I really like about it such as public quests and the journal ( cant remember what its called exaclty ) but the entire game just feels like somthing we have seen already.
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