Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by X-Porter

Originally posted by Adrammelech

 

 

 

 

 

 

No serious raid guild in Wow wants even to raid without deadly boss and about a million other add-ons these days....

Is that an indication of a rise in WoW difficulty, or a rise in player laziness? Most people complain that WoW is too easy now, yet people use all of these add-ons to make it easier. 

If you simply want to talk about raids, sure, games may be more complex today. I personally don't care for raiding much. You want to talk about nearly anything beyond raids, games are degressing violently. From crafting, to social tools, player interaction, character building, risk vs. reward, you name it, it has been dumbed down in recent years.

Just compare SWG crafting to WoWs, or compare Guild War's Skill system to any random generic "Talent points" system, or Eve's political and social interactions to any other game out there, things are getting simpler and simpler. Can't be denied.

"a million other add-ons" and "too easy"

That perfectly describes why I quit WoW and wont look back; the game gets easier with every patch. I seriously think Blizzard has confused "casual" with "stupid." Hell, they even built in a threat-meter in the game, one of several add-ons i swore to never touch.

Oh and this bonus-stupidity: why the heck was the aquatic form made a sea lion..?! Sea lions are mammals for crying out loud! THEY CANT BREATH UNDER WATER!

/rant off

im with you men! 

Originally posted by Adrammelech

Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement.

Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue".

Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts

In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.

Very insightful post. I couldn't agree more.

I've said it once I'll say it again, WAR was made for casual PvPers, unfortunately missing the fact that just because someone likes to play casually doesn't mean they're morons. The fact if you're going to make a game surrounding PvP, you need to have a high skill cap (learning curve) to keep it interesting.

For all the bugs, the unresponsiveness of abilities, low end story content, linear zone instancing, horrible fortress layout design, horrible overly spanned out zone designs, god awfully boring PvE, worse crafting system EVAAHH, plus the f**kload of scenarios that further thinned out the popluation and made RvR seem non existant.

If only.....if only....they could have made the game with a high skill cap and not as retardedly brainless and repetitive as they did, players would have still given this game a chance.

Game play will always conquer all....and Mythic seriously missed the boat when it came to this conclusion.

But hey, can't help but to think Mythic wasn't totally at fault and EA did play a role in WARs epic failure...=/

Anyways, back when I was trolling the warhammeralliance.com forums, I made these examples in an effort to piss off a lot of WAR kiddies over the argument I made how WoW had more open RvR potential than WAR.

There being more WAR in World of Warcraft than in all of WARhammer....lol

Hope you enjoy...=P

Originally posted by Bakkoda24

Now all of you know this but I'll say it anyway.The Warhammer universe existed long before the Warcraft universe did. And yes WoW was fun while there were smart people playing it, but look where it's going now- down the drain. They've made the game so retard-proof that they are losing their more experienced players. Plus now that I've played both games, I realize that WAR isn't a WoW imitator, its the other way around. So much of the content of WoW  is parallel to WAR that it is hard to distinguish.

 

Try and find an intelligent group of people to share your experience with, because there is never going to be an intelligent MMO. The sad truth is that simple-minded, easy, one-button games make the money.

had to highlight this as it made me laugh, yeah wow losing a couple hundred, even a few thousand of you "hardcore experienced" players is really gonna make a difference to a game played by millions, wise up, wow isnt going anywhere but up and as for this smart people comment.. jeezus mate..

Originally posted by PatchDay

Not this again. Warhammer was not the 1st frakkng MMO to come out. Really, EQ1 established the carebear PVE genre.

EQ Classic stablished the hardcore PVE genre.

If you refer to EQ post Plains of Power expansion, then yes you are right, and it was SOE's doing. SOE established the carebear PVE genre.

More old timers complaining that new games are too easy. Move along.

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

More old timers complaining that new games are too easy. Move along.

Moving along right now is going down to a pitch full of garbage. So be my guest if you enjoy that, but I will rather not, thanks.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

More old timers complaining that new games are too easy. Move along.

Moving along right now is going down to a pitch full of garbage. So be my guest if you enjoy that, but I will rather not, thanks.

Man, 8-tracks were soooo much better than CDs.

Originally posted by gamerstuff

I do recall someone stating that old school gamers are no longer the target audience. You are clearly stupid as bricks. I will give you a accurate example. Lets look at the console gaming division. Nintendo as well as the wii cater to nothing but casual gamers and making games as easy(stupid proof) as possible. As all gamers know this has attracted more shovel than ever seen in gaming history to the nintendo. If you call this casual / easy way of a game design the future, then i'm sure you belong with the nintendo wii fanbase. 

You know you look "as stupid as a brick" here, right? How does that Wii analogy prove anything? In fact, I'll give you a better example: Halo. Halo's a very dumbed down FPS, yet it's one of the most popular games out there. Name your favorite "hardcore" or "old school" FPS to come out on the PC or otherwise and the popularity of that game pales in comparison to Halo. Hell, look at TF2. That game made Team Fortress Classic, an inarguably old school game, and made it casual. To prove how stupid you are even further, consider this: right around when TF2 was released a mod called Team Fortress Forever was released. It's basically Team Fortress Classic wither better graphics. What did people choose? TF2 of course, and now nobody plays Team Fortress Forever. 

Here is an example where "old school gamers" had a chance to choose between an "old school" game and a more casual friendly one, yet they chose the latter. Why? That's because you're being driven by nostalgia. Sure, you have fond memories of old games and you think it takes a special person to play and appreciate those games, but that isn't so. People, young or old, care about good games. Some, like you, pretend like the games you once played were good because you're only thinking of the emotions you had, but you're forgetting that during that era there were no better option and at the time playing EQ was revolutionary, but if you drive off to some island and make someone choose between EQ and WoW who's never played or heard of MMOs before, they'll choose WoW simply because EQ and other "old school" games are craptastic compared to the improvements made by "casual" games.

Back on the topic of Warhammer Online, only an idiot would cry about the fact that it is a casual game. Then again, judging by what is considered casual, every FPS is considered casual. If you're stupid enough to whine that an MMO doesn't kick you in the balls for dying in what is supposed to be a game, then I don't know what to say. If you're intelligent and appreciate the fact that a game don't treat player death like having to go through an IRS audit, then welcome to the enlightened side of society and say hello to the majority of MMO players. Either way, WAR is the most successful PvP based game on the market right now. It may suck in a lot of ways, but what are your options? WoW? Even in PvP servers Horde and Alliance players are too afraid to fight each other outside of the sterilized instances. Darkfall? The game failed hard due to the fact that half the promised features never made it in and the ones that are in are broken. Age of Conan? Well, there's some hope for the game yet, but until they fix that pesky "jump around like a monkey so you don't get hit" playstyle, it's not going to be a viable PvP game. Eve Online? Great game, but unless you're into Sci-Fi and you have a group of friends already playing the game to help you out, it's not going to be an enjoyable experience when you first start out. WAR is basically the only game that encourages PvP. Now only if they made the combat less frustrating. Being AoEed to death in front of a keep door is not a fun experience.

Originally posted by whatamidoing

Originally posted by PatchDay

Funny you claim to be a hardcore MMO fan yet you played WAR in the 1st place. whatever, if you were like me, you'd play EVE, DF,or old school UO shard. you wouldn't make this thread if you were one of us

 

And btw, WAR's death penalty was clearly outlined in their FAQ. It's not like they ripped you off or something. You either didnt read the FAQ or wanted a watered down MMO yourself. That's all there is to it

Theres a lot of hardcore MMO out there. If you cant play them, then you most likely just dont belong

 

I love how this scrub mentions DF after he specifically stated that Darkfall sucks too (and trust me, it's as close to suck as you will get for something you actually have to spend money on). Not to mention EVE is like 6 or 7 years old and UO...please. We want a new game that isn't some garbage like WAR. I didn't even have to play more than 5 minutes of that game to make my decision (luckily I did the open beta and didn't actually buy it). Exclamation marks over quest holders heads and map markers everywhere? check. Lame WoW combat? check. No death penalty? check. What a piece of sh!t.

The problem lies with the games being put out lately (and by lately I mean for the past four or five years). As soon as every company tried to ride the WoW train this genre has been one stagnant, watered down, n00bfest.

Darkfall is not that bad of a game. Seriously, I saw hundreds of threads from so called 'hardcore pks/pve'ers' begging for more mmos. PVE'ers got Vanguard. PK's got countless- starport, old UO, EVE (which has NEW graphics upgrade), Shadowbane, Linkrealms (both for PK/PVE), and list goes on and on

I'm calling BS on all these posts asking for hardcore MMOs. Either play what's out there or this genre just isn't for you. Last I checked, Call of Duty 4 is still out there. PErhaps you guys can find happiness there

It gets old looking at so called 'vets' cry for new MMO. And when they come out, yall either ignore them or still play WoW

For pretty much any naysayer I promise you I can look at their post history and they most all play WoW or LOTRO

'Hardcore gamers my arse!

Do not post your useless ranting. It only wastes our time and attempts at influencing us. A lot of people like a lot of games. See it, accept it, move on.

i personally find warhammer to be fun but its something i only want to play in short bursts . it would be ideal for me if they had a two week sub option or time card like city of heroes . it really would nt hold my interest month after month . i dont give a hoot weather a game is hard core or not as long as its fun . warhammers pvp is a lot of fun but the game lacks a depth to it beyond that . maybe that will changed in time personally i prefer the revamped age of conan to warhammer a tthe moment . i might give vanguard another look at some point as well before i think about returning to war for another month . i think the thing that really kills warhammer for me is paradoxically the thing i also like about it the scenarios . the game could be improved over night if they remove general xp from scenario play . this would mean people would have to do pve to level as well as do the scenarios .  i doubt this is likly to happen which is why warhammer is a niche game rather than the massive success it should have been .

Dear Jackio81
 

I love your maps... But is it not abit unfair to compare a Vanilla server in WAR with a PvP in WoW . You seem to like to do maps, do please show me the open world PvP on a Core server in WoW.

Or perhaps that does not fit with your propaganda machine.. i do not know. If so i have a few nice bridges to sell...

sorry to go off-topic but i cant seem to start any new threads. There isnt an option to "Post Message" below the body like there normally is. I tried preview to see if it would pop up there but nada.

is anyone else having this issue ?

Originally posted by Adrammelech

Penalties on death and other similar mechanics are simple timesinks. There's no other form of game that turns to such a thing. The penalty is dying. What is the "death penalty" in chess? None. "Death", or losing a piece, is the penalty. A professional sports team suffers no arbitrary penalty when losing. The loss itself is the penalty. Players know when they died, and failed.

This is a poor analogy, my friend.

In chess the "Death Penalty" is that you lose. Simple. You didn't "come in second". You don't get a do-over.

In professional sports, if you lose, you drop in ranking. Lose enough and you don't make the playoffs. lf you make the playoffs and lose you don't get the championship. By your reasoning every team would make the playoffs and then they would all play until they all got the cup. Everyone wins because it's a game and it's supposed to be fun, right?

I guess we just expect different things in our entertainment choices. That's fine. That's why TV shows I like get cancelled and "Dancing With the Stars" goes on. I can still find something to watch elsewhere.

I'll check out that book you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it will just make me mad. Otherwise, I'll continue to spend my time and money on games that keep me engaged and hope game developers come up with more of what  I find worthwhile in the future.

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Originally posted by dunesw64

Either way, WAR is the most successful PvP based game on the market right now. 

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1. EVE. You may not like space drama (as I don't) but it doesn't change the fact that EVE has way more subs and FAR less turnover than Warhammer. Just because you don't like the style, you cannot discount it's standings.

2. Guild Wars. Some say "This isn't a MMO". That's irrevelant. It's listed here as an MMO, most industry people count it as one, and it's still hugely popular and has tons of replay value. The fact that it's free is irrelevant. If someone gave you a free handful of horseturd, you wouldn't keep it just because it was free, would you? People play it because they like it and they think it's fun. They also have more "subscribers" than Warhammer. (note the ")

3. Darkfall. You say the game failed hard. What are you pointing at as proof? The tons of people leaving it overnight? No, that's not happening so how did it fail hard? It may but not yet.

Again, most playing still claim they are having fun in guilds/alliances there for the time being, they just want them to fix bugs. People are a forgiving lot and will stick around for a bit if they feel the core of a game is there. You don't have to look any further than WAR; Mythic has been promising subs the moon for over half a year already, while people have been re-rolling their sixth alt talking about "WAR has a lot of potential", lol.

I haven't played Darkfall and I bet you haven't either, so when you say 'failed hard', I know you just are saying what you think is popular without proof. Based on WAR's 'polish' and Darkfall's core game, I'd say it probably is a tie between these two. WAR has WAY better shinies and more content (PvE.. zzz), but Darkfall has a stronger basis of PvP play which encourages people to fight each other based on factional differences. This is key to ANY PvP type of play because you have to find a way to get people to show up for battles. Darkfall promises open loot and guild city smashing, WAR promises titles and shiny trinkets that blow chunks.

Originally posted by Vrazule

 

Oh please.  Don't give me that "I've been around the block" tripe.  I've been around since Meridian 59 bub.  Yet neither you nor me helped to do anything for this genre, not unless you claim to be a member of the MMO industry that makes game changing decisions.  Get over yourself.  I played EQ, UO, AO, DAoC, FFXI, SWG Pre and Post NGE, CoH / CoV LOTRO, EQII, Warhammer Online, so and and so forth.  There, does that help with those credentials?

Doesn't matter if you been here since DIKU's were popular or just joined the genre. The industry makes it's decisions based on how much money they make.  They DON'T make nearly as much money with old school MMO paradigms and that is a proven fact.  Deal with it.  I, for one, am quite happy with the changing times.  I can't stand the whole "second job" feel of the old games, making it hard to even call them games in the first place.

And here's where you are mistaken.

I am a member of the MMO community that makes game changing decisions. We call ourselves "Customers".

Now,  you win. Game developers go where the money is. Currently the money is with the "Gimme" generation of gamers, that's why so many new games have sucked.

Millions of "Customers" made Hannah Montana a rock star. Personally I'll stick with AC/DC and Led Zepplin. Are they wrong? Am I wrong?

I'm pretty sure that "Stairway to Heaven" will be heard long after "I Wear a Blonde Wig (or whatever)" is forgotten. Time will tell.

In the meantime, I'll accept my "Death Penalty" here and come back better than before.

I personally love the warhammer universe so when WAR came out I was very excited I pre-ordered the CE and everything. IMO it was very boring however the RVR is fun but as soon as you realize that it is meaningless to win or to even die it gets old quickly.

I wanted a dark, gritty, and unforgiving fanstasy world that the books present but sadly that just didnt happen. The game is not terrible by any means there are features I really like about it such as public quests and the journal ( cant remember what its called exaclty ) but the entire game just feels like somthing we have seen already.

god some of these posts are depressing, what happened to wanting a challenge? thats why i buy games for the challange not the story or character developement, i'll watch a movie or read a book if i want that.

most of you all sound like my sister in law who buys a game and the day she gets the game she looks for a cheat code to give her infinite health or whatever and then brags to me how she beat the game. I mean is that was we really want? i guess so since WoW has 11 million subscribers, people must want the dumb down games for idiots.

This is my thinking as well, but apparently we are in the minority.

I like some story and character development along with my challenge, however.

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Originally posted by XApotheosisX
god some of these posts are depressing, what happened to wanting a challenge? thats why i buy games for the challange not the story or character developement, i'll watch a movie or read a book if i want that.
 
most of you all sound like my sister in law who buys a game and the day she gets the game she looks for a cheat code to give her infinite health or whatever and then brags to me how she beat the game. I mean is that was we really want? i guess so since WoW has 11 million subscribers, people must want the dumb down games for idiots.

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Did you play WoW? If you did, did you use Deadly Boss mods, Auctioneer, Questhelper, Decursive, or any mods?

If so, you are just like your sister-in-law. If not, then you might have maxed your character, but you didn't play the game on 'hard mode' either, because I know you never set foot in Kara or any dungeon without that stuff and won.

Over half of the people like you, the "WoW is too easy" types all used those mods (cheats/aids whatever you want to call them) then claim the game is dumbed down. A mod that tells you exactly when to cast, exactly when NOT to cast, and when to run, and when to run back in... you have no idea what you are talking about. You really wanted a challenging game, play without the mods. Last I checked the game didn't load with those mods, you had to go find them to help you out so you could "win".

Spare us, champ.

Originally posted by dunesw64

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

More old timers complaining that new games are too easy. Move along.

Moving along right now is going down to a pitch full of garbage. So be my guest if you enjoy that, but I will rather not, thanks.

 

Man, 8-tracks were soooo much better than CDs.

This would be a very valid analogy if we started with CD's and were being pushed 8-tracks onto us, with you here telling us how awesome 8-tracks are. CD's showed a great step forward in the ability to store media in high quality, long lasting digital. That was a step forward in technology. MMOs have been stepping backwards for 4 years now.

I am going to expand on Abrahmm's post for folks like popinjay. Not trying to single any1 out but just explain why WoW is a regression. Using mods with WoW has nothing to do with it. Most of us played the game when it launched- when they were no mods, no Battlegrounds, no wellfare gear, etc

Compare WoW to Ultima Online for instance-

1. In UO you could dye your clothes. WoW lacks this. So many people around the same level look exactly like. There goes feeling 'unique' out the window

2. UO was a seamless world. No instances.

3. UO had player housing where you could place your own NPCs

4. UO had no Classes so you could be anything you wanted.

5. UO was easier in one regard whereas you had 'recall' spells. WoW stole this. But in UO you could recall to places you marked

6. UO had no LEvels. So a veteran and newbie could team together

7. Oh, there were no 'teams' in the physical sense from what I recall. You just walked up to a guy and you could help them out. I remember in EQ2 it got so watered down you could 'lock' an encounter. At least WoW didnt regress that bad! But still in WoW if a vet helps you lose XP. Not so in UO

8. In UO you could be a pure crafter. In WoW, one has to kill mobs along with crafting

9. You could skillup via PvP or just like practice spells at your house with friends. You weren't pulled apart from friends via Quests. Huh? You newbies thought WAR was first game to allow XP via PvP??? NOOOO! We had this at the begining

10. You could disguise yourself. A player could wear robes over their armor. This is where TankMAge term emerged. Huh? You thought Shaman from WoW created this term?? City of Heroes you say? Noooooo, it came from Meridian 59 and UO

Originally posted by Venomzer0

There are many other games to play, just shut it down and continue your search : )

 

Everyone knows WAR was trying to be wow, and everyone knows that you can't out-wow WoW (yet, people said the same about eq until wow out-eq'd it)

 

:P

LMAO WAR trying to be wow?? that's hilarious.. it's the opposite if anything... WAR actually has GOOD pvp.. it IS a pvp-centric game..unlike wow that has its pvp tacked on.