I stumbled across some old pre-release information regarding SWG.  As I read through it, I was reminded exactly why so many people lost faith in SWG to deliver a quality StarWars entertainment experience.  If you read through what was said about the game, and then compare that to the actions taken afterward, I think you'll see what I mean by the thread's title.

Here are some quotes containing pre-release comments, and the link they can be found at:

“To prevent the very un-Star Wars circumstance of hundreds, if not thousands, of aspiring Jedi swashbuckling their way through Galaxies, SOE has made the ways of the Force a firm secret. Though public beta testers (ourselves included) were free to take such missions as razing rock mite lairs and delivering legal documents, the particulars of Jedi-hood are shrouded in mystery.”

“Becoming a Jedi is the ultimate goal, and consequently will be the hardest role in the game to achieve. In the movies there at most four Jedi running around (Luke, Vader, Yoda, and the Emperor), so the process of becoming a Jedi in SWG is a guarded secret. "

“They specifically said that they will delay release only if they absolutely must. Basically, they would not ship a bugged/troubled game, but they do think they will have time to meet that date.”

“You don't really need a community manager years before release, unless you intend on really supporting a community. Part of supporting means making it so that their opinion counts for something.”

“Putting our design plans out on the table runs two incredible risks. The first is that competitors get an advantage over us. The second is that we risk alienating people if a design decision changes their favorite feature. Personally, I think both of those risks are outweighed by the benefits of building a strong following for the game, and building trust with the future customers. Fans may not always agree with our decisions, but hopefully they will respect us for being honest with them and listening to their concerns.

You can't buy trust; you have to earn it with your actions."

“Galaxies is your universe. Do with it what you will. And may the Force be with you.”

http://www.rpgplanet.com/starwars/
 

I think "crediblity gap" is not the right term.

"Gaping credibilty chasm on the order of those found on Mars" is more like it...

Originally posted by SioBabble

I think "crediblity gap" is not the right term.

"Gaping credibilty chasm on the order of those found on Mars" is more like it...

Lol I'd have to agree.  What's interesting to me is how much they pushed building trust and listening to players.  The emphasis, then, was that this game belonged to the players.  We were told this was our story, our game, and that we should build a community together, living in the StarWars universe. 

Everything they told us and got us to invest in then turned out to be a lie.  The "unstarwarsy" suddenly became "starwarsy" out of the blue.  The ultimate goal in the game became a start up option, the communities we built were dismantled, and suddenly we felt we were getting the message, "hey this is our game and we can do what we want with it; if you don't like it, piss off."

It's this profound sense of betrayal more than anything, in my view, that has been the biggest obstacle to the game's success.  Unfortunately, with things like the TCG loot items and the continuing existence of serious bugs that SOE promised to fix years ago, they have done precious little to repair the damage done between them and the MMO gaming community.  Many times their actions seem to have just poured salt on the wound.

I just read a thread in the general forum recently asking, "Why don't more people play this game?"  I think this issue is at the heart of it. 

marketing 101

It is most often cheaper to keep a current customer than it is to obtain a new one.  Especially given the negative coverage they have been bestowed due to their lack following basic marketing principles and utter stupidity.  SOE proves the old saying stupid people cannot learn.

Some more credibility issues that seem unresolved can be found in the following statements:

Remember when Smed said this?
“The redesign comes about after hearing desires from our own players on forums and in person at the SWG Fan Fests, multiple focus groups, and our own design team's desire to create something much more grand and sweeping with the game. We have big plans for SWG in the months and years ahead, and we needed this new platform to use as a foundation for creating the vast Galactic Civil War that our players want.”

Then later one of his developers said this: “SWG players were not consulted. Maybe they wanted to sell it to someone other than SWG players.”

Then there’s the gem where Helios explained that Creature Handler was deleted when he found that creatures interfered with the NGE target reticule. When he reported this to Rubenfield, Helios told us Dan’s response was essentially, “cut ‘em.” Hmm yes, lot’s of player input there.

Then there’s Dan saying that the combat system was developed by one developer messing around on his computer and showing it to someone higher up the food chain. Player feedback again I suppose…

Has SOE ever done anything to try to heal the credibility issues that arise from these apparent contradictions? 
 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

“Galaxies is your universe. Do with it what you will. And may the Force be with you.”

Oh those words and memories, little did I know that...

Galaxies is your universe, but we manage it.  Do with it what you can.  And may the Farce be with you, because Toto, we're were going is our interpretation of Star Wars.

Originally posted by SioBabble

I think "crediblity gap" is not the right term.

"Gaping credibilty chasm on the order of those found on Mars" is more like it...

I agree with this statement

Originally posted by Dracus

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

“Galaxies is your universe. Do with it what you will. And may the Force be with you.”

Oh those words and memories, little did I know that...

Galaxies is your universe, but we manage it.  Do with it what you can.  And may the Farce be with you, because Toto, we're were going is our interpretation of Star Wars.

Exactly, it all just seems so incredibly ironic at this point.  I'm far past being angry about it, but don't think I'll ever get over the amazement.

Honestly, all that pre-release talk was just that, talk.  Every developer does it on some level or other, and if they don't do it, the marketing staff does it for them.  Now, SWG did have an open line of communication between the beta community and the devs, more so than I've seen in any other beta since, but I think players need to realize that just because a dev responds to posts or chats via IM certainly doesn't mean they're on the level.  That kind of schmoozing is simply PR, a sort of carrot-dangling not unlike the level grind in most of these games.

We feel some level of ownership in these games because of the time investment, but to be honest, we're just renters, and what we say or want doesn't mean jack to the landlord.  Also, since our rent payments are the lifeblood of the service, there is some motivation for those in charge to sugarcoat things.  Spin, hype, marketing, whatever you want to call it, anything that comes out of a game developer's mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't feel any developer has credibility until I've actually spent a good amount of time with the product; they are all salesmen in one form or another, and therefore I'm completely not surprised at the yawning chasm between the reality of a game and its marketing image.  SWG isn't unique in that respect. 

Games, and really any form of entertainment, are completely unnecessary, and so their creators will do and say anything to convince you to spend your money on something that they know you can ultimately do  without.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Honestly, all that pre-release talk was just that, talk.  Every developer does it on some level or other, and if they don't do it, the marketing staff does it for them.  Now, SWG did have an open line of communication between the beta community and the devs, more so than I've seen in any other beta since, but I think players need to realize that just because a dev responds to posts or chats via IM certainly doesn't mean they're on the level.  That kind of schmoozing is simply PR, a sort of carrot-dangling not unlike the level grind in most of these games.

We feel some level of ownership in these games because of the time investment, but to be honest, we're just renters, and what we say or want doesn't mean jack to the landlord.  Also, since our rent payments are the lifeblood of the service, there is some motivation for those in charge to sugarcoat things.  Spin, hype, marketing, whatever you want to call it, anything that comes out of a game developer's mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't feel any developer has credibility until I've actually spent a good amount of time with the product; they are all salesmen in one form or another, and therefore I'm completely not surprised at the yawning chasm between the reality of a game and its marketing image.  SWG isn't unique in that respect. 

Games, and really any form of entertainment, are completely unnecessary, and so their creators will do and say anything to convince you to spend your money on something that they know you can ultimately do  without.

 

While everything you said has a great deal of truth to it, you have to marvel at the complete unwillingness to bend even slightly at the major gaffes.  Subscriptions are the lifeblood of any MMO in that model, and the level at which SOE was willing to hemorrhage those subscriptions to maintain a vision that few knew about and few agreed with after it was implemented was not only unprecedented (even DAoC brought classic servers online) but virtually suicidal.  They've been on life support since November 2005, but the circumstances that "forced" them into the changes in the first place were just the result of bad management combined with an inability to deliver on even half of what was initially promised. 

While I was just a day 2 vet, I did hear a lot of stories to your point - communication was pretty good between devs and beta testers.  I disagree at the notion that the devs weren't on the level, though.  Most of the time those devs are simply following design instructions from the top and are soliciting feedback toward those ends.  In many instances, though, the final product has a lot that was in beta cut from it, either due to it not being ready yet or a simple change in development direction.  That goes for most apps, actually, not just MMOs, but it's exacerbated with MMOs due to their visibility and complexity.

Originally posted by Kylrathin

 

  In many instances, though, the final product has a lot that was in beta cut from it, either due to it not being ready yet or a simple change in development direction.  That goes for most apps, actually, not just MMOs, but it's exacerbated with MMOs due to their visibility and complexity.

That's what I was getting at when I said they're not on the level.  Even though certain devs may be accessible to their customers, they can't / won't share truly meaningful information that might sway a person's purchasing decision, as that would be a major conflict of interest. 

Its been interesting to see how many mmo players view their game as a kind of contract with the dev team.  Its almost like they think they're entitled to get what they want because they're paying their fifteen bucks, when in reality, they  have no idea if all this time and money they're spending on a game is going to go down the toilet with the next patch.  Its quite a leap of faith, when you get right down to it, and while I understand, and have even felt, my share of nerd rage over it, I've also never been truly surprised, even by the antics of SOE/LA. 

I can't stop watching though, its like a bad soap opera, lol.  I really hope one day some insider writes a book, how fascinating will that be.

I loved SWG Pre-CU when becomming a Jedi was the closest to true impossibility that a MMO has ever come out with. I also liked the fact that there was a 1 death then you couldnt use that character anymore. Then the CU came out and the deaths for jedi went from 1 to 3 to 3 a week to no limits on a death. Also what came in the CU was a well written quest write up on becomming a Jedi(and it was posted on the official forums that was even made a sticky) Then the NGE came out and made it possible for anyone to make a Jedi, which basically told all of those that worked hard to create a Jedi in Pre-CU that all their hard work meant nothing. I have jokingly stated to my friends that if you told SOE that they had an active player base they would be suprised, but seeing this I know they would deny that.

Originally posted by Kylrathin

Originally posted by veritas_X

Honestly, all that pre-release talk was just that, talk.  Every developer does it on some level or other, and if they don't do it, the marketing staff does it for them.  Now, SWG did have an open line of communication between the beta community and the devs, more so than I've seen in any other beta since, but I think players need to realize that just because a dev responds to posts or chats via IM certainly doesn't mean they're on the level.  That kind of schmoozing is simply PR, a sort of carrot-dangling not unlike the level grind in most of these games.

We feel some level of ownership in these games because of the time investment, but to be honest, we're just renters, and what we say or want doesn't mean jack to the landlord.  Also, since our rent payments are the lifeblood of the service, there is some motivation for those in charge to sugarcoat things.  Spin, hype, marketing, whatever you want to call it, anything that comes out of a game developer's mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't feel any developer has credibility until I've actually spent a good amount of time with the product; they are all salesmen in one form or another, and therefore I'm completely not surprised at the yawning chasm between the reality of a game and its marketing image.  SWG isn't unique in that respect. 

Games, and really any form of entertainment, are completely unnecessary, and so their creators will do and say anything to convince you to spend your money on something that they know you can ultimately do  without.

 

While everything you said has a great deal of truth to it, you have to marvel at the complete unwillingness to bend even slightly at the major gaffes.  Subscriptions are the lifeblood of any MMO in that model, and the level at which SOE was willing to hemorrhage those subscriptions to maintain a vision that few knew about and few agreed with after it was implemented was not only unprecedented (even DAoC brought classic servers online) but virtually suicidal.  They've been on life support since November 2005, but the circumstances that "forced" them into the changes in the first place were just the result of bad management combined with an inability to deliver on even half of what was initially promised. 

While I was just a day 2 vet, I did hear a lot of stories to your point - communication was pretty good between devs and beta testers.  I disagree at the notion that the devs weren't on the level, though.  Most of the time those devs are simply following design instructions from the top and are soliciting feedback toward those ends.  In many instances, though, the final product has a lot that was in beta cut from it, either due to it not being ready yet or a simple change in development direction.  That goes for most apps, actually, not just MMOs, but it's exacerbated with MMOs due to their visibility and complexity.

I think both of these comments are very insightful tbh.  What amazes me I think is how shortsighted this marketting approach seems to be.
 

Promise the moon, knowing that you can't possibly deliver, and then act surprised when the fanbase says, "that's no moon!"  Don't they realize that overhyping stuff sets you up for failure?  Look at Vanguard for a classic example of that.  Brad hyped that too the max and then had to apologize for misrepresenting things as he watched everything he built sink through the mud.

I don't understand why they don't just honestly hype the things that they are going to actually release and that will actually work.  Why hype what you can't deliver, or get people excited about something you know is broken?

Also, I think a big part of this problem is that some companies don't realize how many YEARS it takes to get one of these games right.  SWG in 3 years?  Not a chance in hell that a game with that level of complexity could possibly be made functional and enjoyable in that time period.

Everyone wants to copy Wow, why don't they copy their development model--especially the amount of time they invest BEFORE release?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Everyone wants to copy Wow, why don't they copy their development model--especially the amount of time they invest BEFORE release?

Because (and SOE is the classic example of this) the only thing they see are WoW's numbers, not what went into getting them.  Both the CU and the NGE blatantly tried to copy the look of WoW, but of course SOE is incapable of delivering, because these projects are just another project, they are not labors of love.  MBA asshats want their ROI, and SOE is, like the rest of Sony now, strictly in the MBA mode.

Blizzard makes good games that sell.  SOE sells games.  Massive difference in approach.

I think also that the pre release statements represent Raph Koster's vision of the ultimate MMO, one that is a collaborative work between designer, developers, and the players.

Remember that Koster was kicked upstairs and out of the way, most likely at the insistance of the Ferengi slime of LEC, within weeks of launch.

Gentlemen!... The words "credibility" and "SOE" should not be used in the same thread.

That is all.