Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian

What I don't get, is the people ever wanting solo content in a MMORPG. A Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. WHY? It defeats the whole point! The genre should all be about teamwork, solidarity and the like! Being a part of something grand! But have you noticed? WoW has no "group" achievments, other, than gear-grinding (which, ironically, replaced level-grinding). You never have to contribute for the guild, or the like.

 No, no, no, no, no, no and indeed no. Add extra "no" for emphasis.

One of the most frequent (and inherently incorrect) assumptions about the genre is that MMOGing is about grouping; it's not. It's just about being part of a persistent world. This does not mean that you have to go everywhere and do everything with 5 other people in tow.

Do you do that in real life? .. I sure don't.

Hm... I would prefer going out to play with friends, instead of sitting on a couch, playing a single-player game, while chatting over a phone. Maybe that's just me.

P.S. I've beaten your editing. Half-arsed, as it was.

Originally posted by Khaunshar

WoW isnt exactly a game that had the same face for its entire lifespan.

I am pretty sure there is a large number of players who enjoyed classic WoW, maybe BC, but are not happy with the changes to the game.

Face it, WoW as it was at its release, and when it got huge, was a very different, much more interesting and certainly more social game than it is now. Burning Crusade, but especially WotLK, have changed the game fundamentally, to the point where little other than looks and name are still what it used to be.

A lot of people want a game similar to the classic WoW. That doesnt mean we like the WoW as it is right now, and can therefore just play that. WotLK is simply not a good game.

This is pretty much how I feel. I still like and play WoW, but there are certain parts of the game that I simply cannot play right now because the changes that have been made have disappointed me to a very large degree. Developers need to be more careful with patches in my opinion. Sometimes it seems like they patch stuff just for the sake of keeping their jobs; "see we ARE working. Here's what we are going to change this week."  The constant Flavor of the Month classes is what really pisses me off the most. Even if my class is the new FoTM, I don't want to see 600 idiots running around playing the class I have been playing since launch just because it's easier now.

The devs have had years and years and years to balance the classes in this game, yet every patch everything is is thrown completely out of whack and the classes are more imbalanced than before. Some might say this is a good thing and that players need to learn to adapt. And that's cool, I can understand that point of view. But for some players who have invested heavily into one character and finally mastered it, to have it changed into a nearly entirely different class that may not be as fun to play, seems rediculously unfair to me.

Originally posted by Goronian 

Hm... I would prefer going out to play with friends, instead of sitting on a couch, playing a single-player game, while chatting over a phone. Maybe that's just me.

Bizarre tangent there. Bit defensive. Kind of an overshare, really .. and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that has been said in this thread. Which is a bit odd.

P.S. I've beaten your editing. Half-arsed, as it was.

What can I say, I like orange.

There already is and have always been games that are much better than wow. Only reason wow is as popular as it has been is because Blizzard caters to the new mmo players and they know how to market/advertise thier product,  something that other mmo's havent done (why is beyond me) Don't get me wrong wow was a great game back in the early days but has now grown into something else entirely. I have played almost every decent mmo there is and yes unbelievers there are several games that will put wow to shame problem is they don't market/advertise and people simply have no idea how good they are.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Goronian 

Hm... I would prefer going out to play with friends, instead of sitting on a couch, playing a single-player game, while chatting over a phone. Maybe that's just me.

P.S. I've beaten your editing. Half-arsed, as it was.

 Bizarre tangent there. Bit defensive. Kind of an overshare, really .. and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that has been said in this thread. Which is a bit odd.

What can I say, I like orange.

I don't. Sue me.

My previous post had... A little, at least. And why is it odd? Thread derailing is a normal course of action on all forums.

Can you say Single player online non roleplaying game?

Originally posted by Goronian

I don't. Sue me.

You should, they're full of Vitamin C and dietary fiber. No-one likes a constipated gamer with bleeding gums.

My previous post had... A little, at least. And why is it odd? Thread derailing is a normal course of action on all forums.

Sadly true. In an attempt to return to topic:

Solo Good.
Grouping Good.
Forced Grouping Bad.
WoW Good.
WoW-killer Good.

Originally posted by Vidir

<Mod Edit>

Why is it that in threads such as these, the first person to start flinging around generalisations and insults is invariably a non-WoW player ranting about the childishness of WoW's community and incapable of seeing the irony?

Always amusing.

Originally posted by Goronian

What I don't get, is the people ever wanting solo content in a MMORPG. A Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. WHY? It defeats the whole point! The genre should all be about teamwork, solidarity and the like! Being a part of something grand! But have you noticed? WoW has no "group" achievments, other, than gear-grinding (which, ironically, replaced level-grinding). You never have to contribute for the guild, or the like.

The whole mindset is strange for me. There's no real end-game difference in classes (and for a game with 10 classes... Yeah.) - one raiding and one PVP build, and that's it. Everyone looks the same under the fruity gear and... Is there any actual way to set you apart from  all others!

WoW, at least, from my point of view, is a solo game, with a lot of strange guys, running around, who you can group with to get useless gear. Why is that the "hot new thing"? Or maybe it is the whole reason behind it's sucsess?

This is the basic view point of the MMO'ers pre-WoW. post-WoW brought in way to many fans into the MMO genre who want satisfaction and want it now, minimal effort with great rewards.  

There is hope for us that hate these single player MMO's with a chat box. That hope resides in Square Enix(makers of FFXI). I do not see them caving into the massess. The reason I say this is because they are a japanese based country where there gameing style revolves around group play. Makers of FFXI are also making this new MMO. There is no info on it yet. They are rumored to release info on it this year at June at E3.

I speculate that it should be pretty close to release. SE has probably been holding off unveiling the new MMO because why would you want to compete with yourself? As long as FFXI is holding strong there is no need to release a new MMO. Soon as the new MMO hits shelves FFXI will take a major blow, and if its as good as FFXI was, FFXI will be dead. Since the recent release of FFXI sub stats by SE, over the past 6 months FFXI to a pretty tough hit. So the time is right to unveil this June. I personally look for a release late,09 early 2010

For those of you who hate the idea of another FFXI type of game. Great go play any/all of the other countless solo fest/shallow MMO's coming out. Once you get bored of them all you can come try out the new SE MMO.

Obviously my post is based on my opinions with little facts and ALOT of hope.

What everyone is missing here is the larger, real world dimension of WoW:

Which is, it makes a ton of money.

The game mechanics, the solo vs. group, all that gamer stuff is utterly irrelevant to the real issue, which is, will someone tossing money at a game development company get a large return on their investment?

That's what WoW has done.  Anyone looking for venture capital has to go and pitch that they're the next WoW, because that's code for "we'll be swimming in benjamins if only you'll give us the cash upfront".

Which is what gets the attention of the guys in suits who control the money spigot.

WoW's mass appeal has permanently altered the MMO marketplace.  The type of game that appeals to the hardcore will not produce the fountains of cash that WoW does.  Therefore, they won't be made, because there's little or no capital out there for that type of game.  Only games like WoW with mass appeal.

This is the reality of the situation.

Originally posted by toddze 

This is the basic view point of the MMO'ers pre-WoW. post-WoW brought in way to many fans into the MMO genre who want satisfaction and want it now, minimal effort with great rewards. 

Wee bit of a timeline correction here.

Ultima Online - Released 1997.
Everquest - Released 1999.
SWG - Released 2003.
WoW - Released 2004-2005.

UO and SWG were solo-based games and released pre-WoW.

Likewise, WoW is only a solo-based game as far as the levelling aspect is concerned. End-game is group based.

For those of you who hate the idea of another FFXI type of game. Great go play any/all of the other countless solo fest/shallow MMO's coming out. Once you get bored of them all you can come try out the new SE MMO.

Yeah, don't see that happening since the forced-grouping crowd is amongst the smallest of minorities.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Now, this I can never understand .. in a game that offers solo or group friendly levelling, I would never seek to remove the group friendly option on the basis that I prefer soloing. I'd rather play a game with both, so that I could choose what to do and when to do it.

The problem is, solo friendly kills group content. People almost always take the path of least resistance, and even if they like grouping with people, if soloing offers an equally easy path to level, they are going to do soloing instead. If even the people that like grouping are soloing, then there is no one to group with, and the group play suffers. Just try to find groups while leveling in WoW, you will see what I mean.

Both options should be available, but grouping should be much faster and more rewarding than soloing.

 I have no desire to group with people who do so only because they are forced to. On the other hand, I enjoy grouping with people who choose to group.

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 I have no desire to group with people who do so only because they are forced to. On the other hand, I enjoy grouping with people who choose to group.

But if grouping is forced, the only people that will be playing the game are those that choose grouping over soloing, as those that would be "forced" to group won't be playing the game. Therefore, you have no worries in a forced grouping game.

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

The problem is, solo friendly kills group content. People almost always take the path of least resistance, and even if they like grouping with people, if soloing offers an equally easy path to level, they are going to do soloing instead.

If even the people that like grouping are soloing, then there is no one to group with, and the group play suffers. Just try to find groups while leveling in WoW, you will see what I mean.

I see this as somewhat of a contradiction; I've never played a game where it was easier to kill something solo than it was to kill it as part of a group. Surely the path of least resistance in a game like WoW is to quest as a 5-man group and face-roll everything for easy quest XP?

Both options should be available, but grouping should be much faster and more rewarding than soloing.

I disagree on the reward principle since grouping is inherently faster and easier than soloing.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

The problem is, solo friendly kills group content. People almost always take the path of least resistance, and even if they like grouping with people, if soloing offers an equally easy path to level, they are going to do soloing instead.

If even the people that like grouping are soloing, then there is no one to group with, and the group play suffers. Just try to find groups while leveling in WoW, you will see what I mean.

I see this as somewhat of a contradiction; I've never played a game where it was easier to kill something solo than it was to kill it as part of a group. Surely the path of least resistance in a game like WoW is to quest as a 5-man group and face-roll everything for easy quest XP?

No contradiction. The path of least resistance in WoW is solo solo solo. Why? Because XP is split between people in a group. It takes time to get a group together, make sure everyone is on the same quest, make sure everyone gets the right quest items needed, all while doing quests that were really designed to be soloed. The path of least resistance has nothing to do with "how fast you kill something", but how long it takes to complete tasks, and the rewards for doing them. Solo is the path of least resistance.

Both options should be available, but grouping should be much faster and more rewarding than soloing.

I disagree on the reward principle since grouping is inherently faster and easier than soloing.

Grouping isn't faster if you take into account forming the group, getting everyone on the same quests, making sure everyone finished their quests, etc. With XP split, grouping is slower and less rewarding than solo play. Therefore, if a game were to give the same XP for group members or solo players for mobs killed, than grouping would actually have an advantage, and encourage, but not force, people to do it.

 

 

Originally posted by Vidir

I must say that I love wow,dont missunderstand me I dont like to play that game at all but it keeps most of the arrogant childish gamers from real mmorpg's and therfore most other mmo games have a great comunity free of those kids whoms parents pay wow's monthly fee just to get rid of their kids.

Unfortunately some escaped and are present in all MMO's.  But, overall, you are right and I agree.  WoW keeps the largest roll call of children playing MMO's - which is good and I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

No contradiction. The path of least resistance in WoW is solo solo solo. Why? Because XP is split between people in a group. It takes time to get a group together, make sure everyone is on the same quest, make sure everyone gets the right quest items needed, all while doing quests that were really designed to be soloed. The path of least resistance has nothing to do with "how fast you kill something", but how long it takes to complete tasks, and the risks/rewards for doing them. Solo is the path of least resistance.

The XP split is a drain, that I'll concede, but there are some other elements .. one I've added to the above, as you can see. Reduced risks lead to reduced rewards. Additionally:

A group can complete kill quests faster than solo players,
A group of 5 can complete "loot x items" as fast as 5 solo players in the same area at the same time.
Grouping is MUCH easier; you should never die while questing as a group.
Groups can handle quests several levels above them.
Groups can handle group quests.
Groups can handle instance quests.
Because of the previous two, groups often get better item-rewards.

Grouping isn't faster if you take into account forming the group, getting everyone on the same quests, making sure everyone finished their quests, etc. With XP split, grouping is slower and less rewarding than solo play. Therefore, if a game were to give the same XP for group members or solo players for mobs killed, than grouping would actually have an advantage, and encourage, but not force, people to do it.

To be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with the removal of the XP split (since it wouldn't affect me), but I do think that you're overstating the cons of grouping and not acknowledging the pros.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by toddze 

This is the basic view point of the MMO'ers pre-WoW. post-WoW brought in way to many fans into the MMO genre who want satisfaction and want it now, minimal effort with great rewards. 

Wee bit of a timeline correction here.

Ultima Online - Released 1997.
Everquest - Released 1999.
SWG - Released 2003.
WoW - Released 2004-2005.

UO and SWG were solo-based games and released pre-WoW.

Likewise, WoW is only a solo-based game as far as the levelling aspect is concerned. End-game is group based.

Umm I know the timeline. solo based is not the point.  WOW brought an entirely different group of people into the MMO genre. I repreat the group that wants instant satisfaction,  and minmal effort with great rewards. Its my opionion that UO and SWG pre-wow were not like this. How'd you like unlocking jedi in swg before the change?

For those of you who hate the idea of another FFXI type of game. Great go play any/all of the other countless solo fest/shallow MMO's coming out. Once you get bored of them all you can come try out the new SE MMO.

Yeah, don't see that happening since the forced-grouping crowd is amongst the smallest of minorities.

Small enough to make SE a great profit for around 7 years. Which only now has started a decline thats actually worth taking notice on. How is forced grouping a minority? WoW does it end-game. Hell I think every game forces you to group at end-game. That is if you want items. Every MMO player is a forced grouping fan.    

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by toddze 

Umm I know the timeline. solo based is not the point.  WOW brought an entirely different group of people into the MMO genre. I repreat the group that wants instant satisfaction,  and minmal effort with great rewards. Its my opionion that UO and SWG pre-wow were not like this. How'd you like unlocking jedi in swg before the change?

Never did it, I was never hardcore .. 15-20 hours a week is pretty much my limit. 

I'm interested in how you define WoW players as seeking instant gratification. Especially with regards to your comment below:

 

Small enough to make SE a great profit for around 7 years. Which only now has started a decline thats actually worth taking notice on. How is forced grouping a minority? WoW does it end-game. Hell I think every game forces you to group at end-game. That is if you want items. Every MMO player is a forced grouping fan.    

Group-based end-game content isn't ALL content. Few people object to having to group to accomplish something large-scale, it's having to group to do something as basic as gain levels that the vast majority of people find abhorrent.

Personal opinion: I really don't like to spend my time online sitting and waiting in a LFG channel.

 

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 I have no desire to group with people who do so only because they are forced to. On the other hand, I enjoy grouping with people who choose to group.

 

But if grouping is forced, the only people that will be playing the game are those that choose grouping over soloing, as those that would be "forced" to group won't be playing the game. Therefore, you have no worries in a forced grouping game.

Why would you want to force it then anyway? If what you say is true and there are people who like that kind of thing why take away the choice?

riginally posted by toddze 

Umm I know the timeline. solo based is not the point.  WOW brought an entirely different group of people into the MMO genre. I repreat the group that wants instant satisfaction,  and minmal effort with great rewards. Its my opionion that UO and SWG pre-wow were not like this. How'd you like unlocking jedi in swg before the change?

Never did it, I was never hardcore .. 15-20 hours a week is pretty much my limit. 

Well I see that this is the root problem. Casual freindly mindset.

I'm interested in how you define WoW players as seeking instant gratification. Especially with regards to your comment below:

Ok we will stick with SWG (before the catastrophy.) Instant gratification as in not wanting to put forth a major effort to acheive something in SWG case, Jedi. 

 

Small enough to make SE a great profit for around 7 years. Which only now has started a decline thats actually worth taking notice on. How is forced grouping a minority? WoW does it end-game. Hell I think every game forces you to group at end-game. That is if you want items. Every MMO player is a forced grouping fan.    

Group-based end-game content isn't ALL content. Few people object to having to group to accomplish something large-scale, it's having to group to do something as basic as gain levels that the vast majority of people find abhorrent.

Personal opinion: I really don't like to spend my time online sitting and waiting in a LFG channel.

Group-based end-game AND leveling content isn't ALL content in FFXI. Why should gaining levels be so basic(another instant gratfication example)? Why not add that to the challenge of the MMO? It seems MMO's now are just a rush to max level for the end-game content.

Personal opinion: If you couldnt find anything else to do while LFG, well I guess that was your own personal problem. I farmed, crafted, or w/e else i wanted to do while LFG. Who said you had to LFG ? you could take the initative (sp?) and make an xp party. The people who were the most effecient at leveling made their own parties anyways. It wasnt hard to make a party back in the hay day.  

I think all points have been clearly made here. To sum it up:

The people who like WoW and it's basic game mechanics (including the way you recieve exp and general way that the leveling process it structured) will like a game that comes out that is "new" and "fresh" but with similar core mechanics as stated by Ilvandyr. Essentially you could say this group of players is waiting for a "new WoW".

Many games coming out recently, which, are trying to follow WoW's success (which why wouldn't they want to if they're in it for the cash) have similar core mechanics as WoW, espcially in the way exp is given

People who don't like WoW's core mechanics will not like a "newer" "fresher" updated "WoW" with similar core mechanics(i.e. myself, which I only played it because I had a RL friend playing and then I quit soon after he quit). Additionally, this also explains why this same group of people don't like the "mainstream" MMOs coming out recently, bc they share similar mechanics (again in an attempt to ride the WoW train and it's success)

Their is a significant number of people who like more "traditional" types of games (MMOs) that "force grouping" like older EQ and more recently FFXI (although it's not exactly recent anymore). What some people are missing here is that yes, there are people who like these types of games and don't see the "forced grouping" as a bad thing at all, as a matter of fact, i'll go even further and say that's exactly one of the biggest reasons they play these types of games.

So, going back to the original statements made by the OP...people who like WoW and it's core mechanics will *most likely* play a newer game with similar core mechanics. Those who don't like WoW's core mechanics will not like the newer "WoW" with similar core mechanics because they never liked those core mechanics to begin with. Capiche?

Originally posted by whatamidoing

I think all points have been clearly made here. To sum it up:

The people who like WoW and it's basic game mechanics (including the way you recieve exp and general way that the leveling process it structured) will like a game that comes out that is "new" and "fresh" but with similar core mechanics as stated by Ilvandyr. Essentially you could say this group of players is waiting for a "new WoW".

Many games coming out recently, which, are trying to follow WoW's success (which why wouldn't they want to if they're in it for the cash) have similar core mechanics as WoW, espcially in the way exp is given

People who don't like WoW's core mechanics will not like a "newer" "fresher" updated "WoW" with similar core mechanics(i.e. myself, which I only played it because I had a RL friend playing and then I quit soon after he quit). Additionally, this also explains why this same group of people don't like the "mainstream" MMOs coming out recently, bc they share similar mechanics (again in an attempt to ride the WoW train and it's success)

Their is a significant number of people who like more "traditional" types of games (MMOs) that "force grouping" like older EQ and more recently FFXI (although it's not exactly recent anymore). What some people are missing here is that yes, there are people who like these types of games and don't see the "forced grouping" as a bad thing at all, as a matter of fact, i'll go even further and say that's exactly one of the biggest reasons they play these types of games.

So, going back to the original statements made by the OP...people who like WoW and it's core mechanics will *most likely* play a newer game with similar core mechanics. Those who don't like WoW's core mechanics will not like the newer "WoW" with similar core mechanics because they never liked those core mechanics to begin with. Capiche?

Yes I agree Its 2 different styles of gaming, I just like to argue. I am not right and Ilvandyr is not right, I wont convince him hes wrong and he wont convince me that I am wrong, but it sure is fun trying

Originally posted by toddze

riginally posted by toddze 

Well I see that this is the root problem. Casual freindly mindset.

Woah there. m'friend. 20 hours is average. It's the 60 hour a week gamer that's the vocal minority. I'm merely a more vocal member of the typically silent majority.

Ok we will stick with SWG (before the catastrophy.) Instant gratification as in not wanting to put forth a major effort to acheive something in SWG case, Jedi. 

I see, then what you would term "instant gratification", I would term "intolerance of timesinks", since jedi grinding was just that .. a repetitive XP grind.

Group-based end-game AND leveling content isn't ALL content in FFXI. Why should gaining levels be so basic(another instant gratfication example)? Why not add that to the challenge of the MMO? It seems MMO's now are just a rush to max level for the end-game content.

A fundamental difference in viewpoint; I don't consider having to spend my online time getting groups to constitute a challenge, and I don't consider a forced-grouping level grind to be inheretnly more challenging than a solo level grind. More people doesn't mean more difficult in my experience.

Personal opinion: If you couldnt find anything else to do while LFG, well I guess that was your own personal problem. I farmed, crafted, or w/e else i wanted to do while LFG. Who said you had to LFG ? you could take the initative (sp?) and make an xp party. The people who were the most effecient at leveling made their own parties anyways. It wasnt hard to make a party back in the hay day. 

It's a moot point, as I avoided FFXI completely due to the forced group element. I don't find it fun, so there's no logical reason that I would join a game that requires it; the mere thought of an xp party is just anathema to me.

Again, we have a fundamental impasse so I suppose it's time to agree to disagree.