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tempestormer
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/23/07
Cooking is a gift from god, spice is a gift from the devil. |
4/09/09 12:28:26 PM#51
TBC in my opinion was the best thing to happen to WoW from a raiding perspective. Being a healer, the fights in BT/Sunwell were a hell of a lot more fun than AQ40 (highest I had gone at the time), yet were also very challenging. The 25-man raids that came out in TBC was a more polished idea, allowing everyone on the raid team to have a chance at getting something, compared to 40 people (half of which don't even know what gear is suited for them). If anything, Wrath's current raiding system is what is ruining the game for so many players. It's too easy, way too easy... I may be speaking for myself, but when raiding is deemed to be very difficult or challenging, it creates some pretty awesome memories that stick with you, allowing you to say "It took us a while to down that boss, but we did it...". Afterall, that's where I was getting my money's worth.
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4/09/09 1:26:29 PM#52
Originally posted by Orthedos
QFT. I get so sick and tired of these hardcore fanatics who have this elitist view that a TRUE MMO has to be boring and painful. You know what? If that was the case, millions of players would be flocking to Darkfall right now. Guess what? They AREN'T. Few want to play a game where they have to waste hours just to find a group or heal themselves. That is boring beyond belief. What's even more amazing, these same people that bitch about WOW won't touch Darkfall themselves, even though that game is more like what they've been spewing here for the last four years. There's also Koster's new game and Fallen Earth in Development which talks of having that wonderful Sandbox elemant that they speak of as if it's the wholly grail of all MMOs. So why they spend their time here is beyond me. Maybe being douchbags is a kind of sport for them. |
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4/09/09 2:41:09 PM#53
Originally posted by tempestormer I agree with you to an extent. I do not think it has to be rewarding or challenging to form lasting memories. Just last night, we downed Patchwerk (10 man Naxx) and things were great. One shot, no deaths and it wasn't hard at all. Right after the boss, is the "frogger" thing and we got through it fine and moved on to the next boss. We switched up tanks because a new tank wanted to try and it didn't go well. No biggie, so we come back in and form reason we, the instance or the server was lagging or frogger got bugged or whatever. A bunch of us died. We laughed so hard because it was like "Can I get a rez?"....BAM...dead again. So we have another issue with Globbulus and had an issue with someone not understanding the poison thing. We wiped, again no big deal, had the same issue with frogger. So we get most of us up through it except our tank was slow. He tells us he is coming in hot - he had a slime with him. We got so frustrated with frogger, we actually fought the slime in the middle of the frogger event just for kicks. It was hilarious, people dying left and right, slimes exploding, shaman dropping totems trying to prevent the slimes from moving to us....all kinds of stuff. By the end, we were in hysterics and laughing to the point we were crying. Vent was silent because people were laughing too hard. It was great. Sure it was pretty and I had the repair bill from hell, but I am getting messages and comments on our website about it today - people still laughing about it. It made for an awesome moment for the raid. Sometimes it can be the little things like that which can really make your day or get your money;s worth too. |
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4/09/09 3:33:06 PM#54
I haven't raided in WoW yet, but I have great memories of things I've done in the game. Some of the people I played with that helped generate those memories are still playing and that to me makes a world of a difference. One thing that I find doesn't get addressed is that at least on the EU server I am on, the population turnaround is actually low, so people I met over 2 years ago are still mainly playing. If people take breaks (like I do) they come back. In that sense, I have more of a feeling of continuity in WoW than in any other game except EvE. I rather like that.
One of the things I remember the most is my guild making a bunch of level 1 taurens and racing from Thunder Bluff to Gadgetzan. That was hilarious good fun! This event has nothing to do with raids or grouping, but it is one of the most memorable MMO events I have ever had. Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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4/09/09 3:42:35 PM#55
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Lies are not like pieces of chocolate. They don't come in single, double, or triple. Not that I care, just pointing out how dumb the expression "double lie" sounded. But yeah, are you SURE there are not 9 million accounts in Korea? How many accounts are there in Korea then? 10,000? 200? 11.1 million?
When Blizzard hit 10 million subscribers they stated in no unclear terms that they had 4.5 accounts in the North America/European markets. So unless subtraction is a foreign concept, yes he can say there are not 9 million accounts in korea (falsehood #1) and that there are not 9 million gold farmers in korea(falsehood #2). That aside, I think you got the reaction you were looking for in the first place with your pointless reply.
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4/09/09 3:51:14 PM#56
Facts FTW! |
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4/09/09 4:10:19 PM#57
I can fully understand your feelings. With every expansion the game is getting more and more easier to play that one day you can just start a new toon at max level with max gear already at your bags.
Then you can go and hire NPCs for free to group and you can /follow them and watch them play dungeons while your char autopick the loot.
I for myself played Warlock all the time on classic wow until BC was announced. I quit then and after 1 year came back, leveled up (real quick) then left again to come back after LichKing and quitted 1 week ago after 2 month of boring gameplay. The only reason I stayed so long was the contact to some people in game. |
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4/09/09 4:22:08 PM#58
Originally posted by ktanner3
QFT. I get so sick and tired of these hardcore fanatics who have this elitist view that a TRUE MMO has to be boring and painful. You know what? If that was the case, millions of players would be flocking to Darkfall right now. Guess what? They AREN'T. Few want to play a game where they have to waste hours just to find a group or heal themselves. That is boring beyond belief. What's even more amazing, these same people that bitch about WOW won't touch Darkfall themselves, even though that game is more like what they've been spewing here for the last four years. There's also Koster's new game and Fallen Earth in Development which talks of having that wonderful Sandbox elemant that they speak of as if it's the wholly grail of all MMOs. So why they spend their time here is beyond me. Maybe being douchbags is a kind of sport for them. Agreed in part but I feel WoW has gone too far the other way. The game is an absolute piece of piss now, so easy that it's just not fun. Balance is a hard thing to come by, particularly when you're trying to please X million subscribers, but for me personally it was just dull.
I'm not a "hardcore" gamer, I don't want to spend my leisure time ice skating uphill, but I want at least some challenge when I play a game. |
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4/09/09 4:24:14 PM#59
I find it so pathetic that people that only played the game UNTILL BC comes and bash it. I mean, yhe game changed with BC - Yes, but actually for the better - A lot better! I have played it since launch, I mean I stated playing the game before it even had chat bubbles. And I remember all the cries at the forums about "nothing to do when you hit 60. unless you were in a large guild that could run instances like Molten Core and beyond and so on. Or if you did not want to go that route, you had PvP battlegrounds with a system that forced you to play 10 hours a day if you wanted to progress and earn titles and gear. That simply was not fair for the majority of Wow players. I think something like 11 percent ever saw Molten Core and maybe 3% Blackwing lair. What about the rest 97%? They can actually have fun today seeing and doing lots of things without sacrificing their lives for it. So all this QQ about the game too easy is just.. meh. And soon Ulduar will be launched with hard modes. And that will mean that those 97% that did not get to see much more than UBRS in Vanilla, can now see all content - and those 3% that does not do much else than trying to beat the hardest content in wow can try to beat the hard modes that will be introduced. its a win-win situation for everyone. For ** sake. How fun would Guitar hero would bee if those that are not experts could only play 3 tunes.. and all the rest were so hard that they were only for the very low numbers of experts out there? A game has to be aimed at its core audience. And I think Blizzard is doing a damn fine job by making a game that appeals to such a broad range and they are improving. I suspect that a lot that claims that Vanilla was so much better have just fallen into the nostalgica trap or just basically have a really bad memory. Its quite simple. If you do not like it, then leave. But remember that there are enough people enjoying it. Every day!
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4/09/09 4:42:32 PM#60
I understand all of this & I can let you guys know A new game will soon be born, with all the great features of all games, & more This game will be perfect & it will be the only one But until that day, we will just have to live with this generic crap where if 1 thing is good then the other must not be Arbiter to the 7Knights |
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4/10/09 3:49:53 AM#61
Originally posted by blueshadow The game overall has become less challenging in many ways outside of the Classic WoW areas. I'm not going to go over raiding since it has already been talked about and beaten into the ground on these forums. The ease of play is probably more to do with the fact that our characters are already so much more powerful by the time they hit WotLK areas than they are when most people hit the TBC areas. There is a huge difference between a level 60 and a level 70 as far as abilities go. You have more tools and have far more versatility in your talent trees. Plus, by level 58-60, you're mainly in crap Vanilla item, by the time you're level 70 you are in crap TBC items, but the crap items from TBC are far more powerful with relation to their level than what was on offer in Classic. I found the design of WotLK areas to be far far better than TBC, much more interesting and much, much more immersive. But, I still find that it's harder for my character to get killed in WotLK in general than in even TBC.
At level 58, I've taken my boomkin Druid alt to TBC to do some orange quests. Some of them have been absolutely harrowingly difficult. There still is challenge, but perhaps there is more challenge if you're tackeling the quests at a couple levels below than if you're at the 'right' level for them. Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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4/10/09 3:04:42 PM#62
Originally posted by Daffid011
Lies are not like pieces of chocolate. They don't come in single, double, or triple. Not that I care, just pointing out how dumb the expression "double lie" sounded. But yeah, are you SURE there are not 9 million accounts in Korea? How many accounts are there in Korea then? 10,000? 200? 11.1 million?
When Blizzard hit 10 million subscribers they stated in no unclear terms that they had 4.5 accounts in the North America/European markets. So unless subtraction is a foreign concept, yes he can say there are not 9 million accounts in korea (falsehood #1) and that there are not 9 million gold farmers in korea(falsehood #2). That aside, I think you got the reaction you were looking for in the first place with your pointless reply.
How can you do the math and yet miss my point? Maybe you were so bent on trying to prove me wrong that you lost sight of the big picture. I keep forgetting that message boards are a world where you have to put 2+2 together for people, because if you post 50%, 75%, or 99% of your idea, they're going to dismiss it as a partial thought and leave it where it sits. Here is some more math for you: 4.5/11.5 *100 = 39%. Why is only 39% of WOW's player base even from America (39% or LESS, given the multiboxing trend and given that some users had their accounts banned and bought new copies of the game)? I know you're going to make something up and say that "world wide this" and "world wide that", but the bottom line is that while many American gamers have WOW accounts, the American audience at large is unimpressed. Other countries aside, if you're an American game company, (and your game is sold in America), 4.5 million accounts in a 4.5 year span is *garbage* compared to what you'd sell if the customers were truly impressed. In terms of MMOs, WOW has sold huge numbers, but let's take a broader view. Diablo 2 sold 4 million + copies wordlwide, but Diablo 2 did not have as many gold farmer and multiboxer accounts, and Blizzard was not very experienced in their overseas marketing back then. Super Mario Bros. 3 sold more than 18 million copies worldwide and it was pick-up-and-play with no online features at all. That was also before video games started making more money than box office movies. Yes, SMB3 sold almost twice as many copies of WOW, and did so in a time when video games were much less popular than they are right now. When you look at the big picture, WOW is successful, but it's not that big in terms of the global video games market, and there are certainly a ton of gamers who remain unswayed by the flashy numbers. Furthermore, saying "WOW sells" is not an excuse for shoddy gameplay and a complete neglect for the PVP audience. If anything, WOW should have the BEST PVP. Hell, they've made $$$BILLIONS$$$ on the game, and yet their PVP does not play like a billion dollars, or a million dollars. WOW PVP plays like a 50 cent hoe.
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4/10/09 3:42:42 PM#63
Originally posted by Souldrainer
When Blizzard hit 10 million subscribers they stated in no unclear terms that they had 4.5 accounts in the North America/European markets. So unless subtraction is a foreign concept, yes he can say there are not 9 million accounts in korea (falsehood #1) and that there are not 9 million gold farmers in korea(falsehood #2). That aside, I think you got the reaction you were looking for in the first place with your pointless reply.
How can you do the math and yet miss my point? Maybe you were so bent on trying to prove me wrong that you lost sight of the big picture. I keep forgetting that message boards are a world where you have to put 2+2 together for people, because if you post 50%, 75%, or 99% of your idea, they're going to dismiss it as a partial thought and leave it where it sits. Here is some more math for you: 4.5/11.5 *100 = 39%. Why is only 39% of WOW's player base even from America (39% or LESS, given the multiboxing trend and given that some users had their accounts banned and bought new copies of the game)? I know you're going to make something up and say that "world wide this" and "world wide that", but the bottom line is that while many American gamers have WOW accounts, the American audience at large is unimpressed. Other countries aside, if you're an American game company, (and your game is sold in America), 4.5 million accounts in a 4.5 year span is *garbage* compared to what you'd sell if the customers were truly impressed. In terms of MMOs, WOW has sold huge numbers, but let's take a broader view. Diablo 2 sold 4 million + copies wordlwide, but Diablo 2 did not have as many gold farmer and multiboxer accounts, and Blizzard was not very experienced in their overseas marketing back then. Super Mario Bros. 3 sold more than 18 million copies worldwide and it was pick-up-and-play with no online features at all. That was also before video games started making more money than box office movies. Yes, SMB3 sold almost twice as many copies of WOW, and did so in a time when video games were much less popular than they are right now. When you look at the big picture, WOW is successful, but it's not that big in terms of the global video games market, and there are certainly a ton of gamers who remain unswayed by the flashy numbers. Furthermore, saying "WOW sells" is not an excuse for shoddy gameplay and a complete neglect for the PVP audience. If anything, WOW should have the BEST PVP. Hell, they've made $$$BILLIONS$$$ on the game, and yet their PVP does not play like a billion dollars, or a million dollars. WOW PVP plays like a 50 cent hoe. Your original point was nothing more than hyperbole and you were call to task on it. It was no effort to prove you wrong.
Pointing out that that areas of the world that are more densly populated have more people playing wow somehow makes it a failure? Do you even realize this just shows global success? Does 5.5 million asian users somehow make 4.5 million western users a bad thing? Does comparing sales of wow (which you are confusing as current subscribers) with some of the best selling video games of all times make wow bad? Warcraft dominates the market it is in, PC video games. It has been on the top 10 best selling list for over 4 years running. I am positive that any other game maker would kill for their games to be as unaccepted as you think wow is.
As for pvp, that is your opinion. Considering that wow has more pvp servers than pve I think that speaks louder than your bias does. There are most likely more people playing wow pvp than every other pvp mmo combined, but I don't know the actual number, but it is a very strong likelyhood.
Other than you don't like wow, have no idea how many actual gold farmers there are and a bunch of other random opinions inserted as facts, what are you trying to say?
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4/10/09 4:04:04 PM#64
Originally posted by Daffid011
When Blizzard hit 10 million subscribers they stated in no unclear terms that they had 4.5 accounts in the North America/European markets. So unless subtraction is a foreign concept, yes he can say there are not 9 million accounts in korea (falsehood #1) and that there are not 9 million gold farmers in korea(falsehood #2). That aside, I think you got the reaction you were looking for in the first place with your pointless reply.
How can you do the math and yet miss my point? Maybe you were so bent on trying to prove me wrong that you lost sight of the big picture. I keep forgetting that message boards are a world where you have to put 2+2 together for people, because if you post 50%, 75%, or 99% of your idea, they're going to dismiss it as a partial thought and leave it where it sits. Here is some more math for you: 4.5/11.5 *100 = 39%. Why is only 39% of WOW's player base even from America (39% or LESS, given the multiboxing trend and given that some users had their accounts banned and bought new copies of the game)? I know you're going to make something up and say that "world wide this" and "world wide that", but the bottom line is that while many American gamers have WOW accounts, the American audience at large is unimpressed. Other countries aside, if you're an American game company, (and your game is sold in America), 4.5 million accounts in a 4.5 year span is *garbage* compared to what you'd sell if the customers were truly impressed. In terms of MMOs, WOW has sold huge numbers, but let's take a broader view. Diablo 2 sold 4 million + copies wordlwide, but Diablo 2 did not have as many gold farmer and multiboxer accounts, and Blizzard was not very experienced in their overseas marketing back then. Super Mario Bros. 3 sold more than 18 million copies worldwide and it was pick-up-and-play with no online features at all. That was also before video games started making more money than box office movies. Yes, SMB3 sold almost twice as many copies of WOW, and did so in a time when video games were much less popular than they are right now. When you look at the big picture, WOW is successful, but it's not that big in terms of the global video games market, and there are certainly a ton of gamers who remain unswayed by the flashy numbers. Furthermore, saying "WOW sells" is not an excuse for shoddy gameplay and a complete neglect for the PVP audience. If anything, WOW should have the BEST PVP. Hell, they've made $$$BILLIONS$$$ on the game, and yet their PVP does not play like a billion dollars, or a million dollars. WOW PVP plays like a 50 cent hoe. Your original point was nothing more than hyperbole and you were call to task on it. It was no effort to prove you wrong.
Pointing out that that areas of the world that are more densly populated have more people playing wow somehow makes it a failure? Do you even realize this just shows global success? Does 5.5 million asian users somehow make 4.5 million western users a bad thing? Does comparing sales of wow (which you are confusing as current subscribers) with some of the best selling video games of all times make wow bad? Warcraft dominates the market it is in, PC video games. It has been on the top 10 best selling list for over 4 years running. I am positive that any other game maker would kill for their games to be as unaccepted as you think wow is.
As for pvp, that is your opinion. Considering that wow has more pvp servers than pve I think that speaks louder than your bias does. There are most likely more people playing wow pvp than every other pvp mmo combined, but I don't know the actual number, but it is a very strong likelyhood.
Other than you don't like wow, have no idea how many actual gold farmers there are and a bunch of other random opinions inserted as facts, what are you trying to say?
So, I post numbers and you respond with a couple of exaggerated opinions? Seems that you were the one called to task.. Again, only 39% of WOW accounts are registered in America. Think about what that means before responding.
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4/11/09 7:54:09 AM#65
WoW is a popular game on a worldwide scale. No matter how many math crap you throw at people. "Skill has not cool downed!" |
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4/11/09 8:22:53 AM#66
Hey man, I think what you figured out just now has happened to many "older" players. I personally have never really played WoW (got a warrior to 40something) but I did play Everquest hardcore. The mechanics are the same. You level to maximum level and start raiding to get the best gear. Then you come out with a new Expansion and a new level cap and all your fancy stuff means nothing, because its obsolete a few weeks later. Either you keep up with the grind, wich means raid attendance every day or you get left behind and pick up the stuff that no one wants. If you want to be the best of the best you gotta live in the game. One day I sat down my char, said good night in guild chat like every day and never logged back in. Even the people you thought relying on your presence maybe wondered for a few weeks were you are and then recruit someone else to fill your spot and move on. What it comes down to is this: You and your character are replaceable. The only thing that matters is attendance and a grasp of the simple game mechancis + a normal attention span. If you are good people might remember you, but they probably wont miss you. Because they are still immersed in the game and only care for that better gear. Because they think they have invested so much time into their gear, they can't just let that go to waste. That is how MMORPGS work. You are creating a bond to your character and its equipment wich cost you so much time and nevers to get, you don't want to throw that away. And sometimes it just makes "click" in your brain and you realise how stupid and useless it all is and just move on. I play EVE these days, not a hardcore raiding game. Log in, kill some people, have some fun, log off. I don't want to have obligations to keep me logged on. And that is exactly what MMOs like WoW "force" you to do if you want to stay competitive. Waste of time, thats what it is. And it's great at that. |
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4/11/09 1:27:45 PM#67
Originally posted by Souldrainer
It means more people in asia play than in the west. Does that somehow prove anything you say? Are you implying that asians somehow are lesser people and don't count as far as success goes? Really, I just don't understand what you think 39% has to do with anything. Wow is the most popular mmo on the planet no matter where you look, but you seem to think dividing 2 numbers together and pointing at the smallest result makes you enlightened about some global truth that no one else understands. You say all sorts of meaningless and inaccurate things. Maybe you can be more specific about what you seem to think your numbers mean. Maybe you are confused and think 4.5 million subscribers means 4.5 million copies sold? |
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4/11/09 1:49:16 PM#68
Originally posted by Daffid011
It means more people in asia play than in the west. Does that somehow prove anything you say? Are you implying that asians somehow are lesser people and don't count as far as success goes? Really, I just don't understand what you think 39% has to do with anything. Wow is the most popular mmo on the planet no matter where you look, but you seem to think dividing 2 numbers together and pointing at the smallest result makes you enlightened about some global truth that no one else understands. You say all sorts of meaningless and inaccurate things. Maybe you can be more specific about what you seem to think your numbers mean. Maybe you are confused and think 4.5 million subscribers means 4.5 million copies sold?
Why waste the time? 39% of WoW accounts aren't from America to begin with. The 4.5 million number was the US and the Euro market combined. I remember seeing one press release that over 2 million accounts were form the US. So here is a great question what other MMO has 2 million accounts in the US? Think about what that means *sinister music plays*.... And I'll tell you what "that means" it means that a western MMO actually is popular on a world market level. Outside of Ultima Online how many Western MMO's are still running any servers in the Asian market?
South Korea is probably the most wired (or one of the most wired) countries in the world. I never actually saw anyone imply that they were "gold farmers" before. Considering the way "gaming" is treated like baseball in America... its a very odd statement. In fact the South Korean government not long ago made a large cash infusion to Korean Game Developers... I don't think Obama has ever mentioned any Gaming Stimulus Package.
And honestly what am I suppose to think about if over half of a games subscribers come from outside the US? I mean honestly I really don't care.
However, I really did enjoy this... "It means more people in asia play than in the west. Does that somehow prove anything you say? Are you implying that asians somehow are lesser people and don't count as far as success goes? Really, I just don't understand what you think 39% has to do with anything. Wow is the most popular mmo on the planet no matter where you look, but you seem to think dividing 2 numbers together and pointing at the smallest result makes you enlightened about some global truth that no one else understands. "
That was great! Typical thread: Blocked, blocked, blocked, intellegent post I may not agree with, blocked, blocked, blocked, intellegent post I may agree with, blocked, blocked... |
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matraque
Hard Core Member
Joined: 11/10/05
If i''m paying a monthly fee, i demand an unfinished game! |
4/11/09 4:30:12 PM#69
I actually learned to like WoW... it's a fun game and problably the most solid on the market currently. Sure, it's dumb down and you are spoon feed, but so what? I'm having fun in it and i can play whenever i want. I just jump in and it's instant fun. It's a good game people, get over it. |
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4/12/09 8:37:21 AM#70
Originally posted by Souldrainer
When Blizzard hit 10 million subscribers they stated in no unclear terms that they had 4.5 accounts in the North America/European markets. So unless subtraction is a foreign concept, yes he can say there are not 9 million accounts in korea (falsehood #1) and that there are not 9 million gold farmers in korea(falsehood #2). That aside, I think you got the reaction you were looking for in the first place with your pointless reply.
How can you do the math and yet miss my point? Maybe you were so bent on trying to prove me wrong that you lost sight of the big picture. I keep forgetting that message boards are a world where you have to put 2+2 together for people, because if you post 50%, 75%, or 99% of your idea, they're going to dismiss it as a partial thought and leave it where it sits. Here is some more math for you: 4.5/11.5 *100 = 39%. Why is only 39% of WOW's player base even from America (39% or LESS, given the multiboxing trend and given that some users had their accounts banned and bought new copies of the game)? I know you're going to make something up and say that "world wide this" and "world wide that", but the bottom line is that while many American gamers have WOW accounts, the American audience at large is unimpressed. Other countries aside, if you're an American game company, (and your game is sold in America), 4.5 million accounts in a 4.5 year span is *garbage* compared to what you'd sell if the customers were truly impressed. In terms of MMOs, WOW has sold huge numbers, but let's take a broader view. Diablo 2 sold 4 million + copies wordlwide, but Diablo 2 did not have as many gold farmer and multiboxer accounts, and Blizzard was not very experienced in their overseas marketing back then. Super Mario Bros. 3 sold more than 18 million copies worldwide and it was pick-up-and-play with no online features at all. That was also before video games started making more money than box office movies. Yes, SMB3 sold almost twice as many copies of WOW, and did so in a time when video games were much less popular than they are right now. When you look at the big picture, WOW is successful, but it's not that big in terms of the global video games market, and there are certainly a ton of gamers who remain unswayed by the flashy numbers. Furthermore, saying "WOW sells" is not an excuse for shoddy gameplay and a complete neglect for the PVP audience. If anything, WOW should have the BEST PVP. Hell, they've made $$$BILLIONS$$$ on the game, and yet their PVP does not play like a billion dollars, or a million dollars. WOW PVP plays like a 50 cent hoe. Souldrainer your figures and assumptions are wrong. At least get your basic arguments correct before rambling on about how people miss your point. 1) He said 4.5 million western accounts when Blizzard annoucned 10 million. Go re-read it. So why you use 11.5 million to give the ratio of Western to Eastern accounts, I really have no idea. It could be possible that Eastern Accounts grew by 1.5 million while Western ones didn't, but given all the new Russian etc realms that were released in that period, this is a big assumption to make. Even if the figures were as low as 39%, which they aren't - why is this relevant at all? 2) Multiboxers exist in every MMORPG out there. Their influence on subscription figures are marginal. 3) Gold farmers exist in every MMORPG out there. If WoW has more it's because it simply has more customers to sell to. 4) WoW's PvP is superior to pretty much everything out there at the moment, for RPG PvP. It's not on par in competitive terms with RTS or FPS but it's still the most fluid and responsive and tactical MMORPG out there. Of course this is highly subjective but then your presenting subjective opinions as if they were fact, so I will counter your argument in the same way. Either way, Blizzard still have the most popular PvP game with the most prize money for an MMORPG, and the most coverage. if you're going to have a dig at someone for not 100% understanding what you're posting, at least demonstrate that you can argue competently. I could have argued against WoW far better than you did, but as it stands you have really only proven your dislike for the game and little else. Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting... |
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4/12/09 9:35:38 AM#71
I'm curious why some think it's neccessary to point out that WOW is popular outside of the U.S. Is it because they hate non-americans or because they think that somehow invalidates WOW subscriber base? I think marketing a game to as large a base as possible is smart business. Koreans are no less a people than americans, so as far as I'm concerned that argument is invalid and bordering on racist. |
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4/12/09 12:29:42 PM#72
Originally posted by Daffid011
It means more people in asia play than in the west. Does that somehow prove anything you say? Are you implying that asians somehow are lesser people and don't count as far as success goes? Really, I just don't understand what you think 39% has to do with anything. Wow is the most popular mmo on the planet no matter where you look, but you seem to think dividing 2 numbers together and pointing at the smallest result makes you enlightened about some global truth that no one else understands. You say all sorts of meaningless and inaccurate things. Maybe you can be more specific about what you seem to think your numbers mean. Maybe you are confused and think 4.5 million subscribers means 4.5 million copies sold?
There are more Buddists in China than there are people in America. Does that mean we should all convert to Buddism?
Directed at all those defending WOW: You guys need to pick an argument and stick with it. Seriosuly, every time I hear people brag about WOW, they bring up numbers, then when I prove that the vast majority of players are from the gold farmer part of the world, they start talking about how numbers don't matter. Pick one. Either the numbers matter, and you are going to concede that WOW is a gold farmer game, OR you're going start trying to defend WOW on it's actual merits. Instead of saying "More people play WOW BGs than all others combined", try "WOW BGs are good because ... ____________." People who are fed up with WOW really won't care that more gold farmers play WOW than all other MMOs combined, even WOW itself.
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4/12/09 1:03:04 PM#73
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Yet they still come here and bash the game with the same tired arguments. They still post here and act like we are lesser players because the game is too easy. They attack us because we like the game and they don't. The hold on to dream of vanilla WOW and cannot understand why Blizzard changed the game, yet they were some of the first to leave. They post in these forums with a ferocity that borders on the SWG/SOE hate, yet refuse to say that WOW is a GOOD game and a SUCCESSFUL game. Those who admit to that only says its because WOW players are dumb and only want McD's. They compare playing WOW to britney Spears music or whatever mundane, popular behavior with negative conotations. So what is the point if people don't care? It's simple as this: WOW is a great game, its is the most successful MMO in history to date. That does not make it perfect, it just makes it successful. A lot of people play and enjoy playing it. Doing so does not make them stupid, ignorant or less of a player. They play it for various reasons - maybe social, maybe they find it fun, maybe because they don't have the time they did 10 years ago. People who do not like it are okay too. They have their reasons too. No numbers, nothing people who play WOW can say will change their minds.
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4/12/09 9:57:45 PM#74
Originally posted by Souldrainer
There are more Buddists in China than there are people in America. Does that mean we should all convert to Buddism?
Directed at all those defending WOW: You guys need to pick an argument and stick with it. Seriosuly, every time I hear people brag about WOW, they bring up numbers, then when I prove that the vast majority of players are from the gold farmer part of the world, they start talking about how numbers don't matter. Pick one. Either the numbers matter, and you are going to concede that WOW is a gold farmer game, OR you're going start trying to defend WOW on it's actual merits. Instead of saying "More people play WOW BGs than all others combined", try "WOW BGs are good because ... ____________." People who are fed up with WOW really won't care that more gold farmers play WOW than all other MMOs combined, even WOW itself. WTF does religion have to do with this? How about you try to stick to one issue for more than 10 seconds? No one is saying numbers matter and number don't matter. They are saying you are being ignorant and your points are invalid, poorly stated and draw on false conclusions. Wow is the most popular mmo in the west. Wow is the most popular mmo in the east. What does the ratio of players east vs west have to do with anything? How on earth does that prove your idiotic 9 million gold farmer theory? How does anything you have said prove any ratio of players to gold farmers other than your pure speculation? Post some facts or shut up already. Give some figures for gold farmers. Not subscribers, not asians or any other abstract implied number that you concoct from some napkin math. So more people play wow in asia (and on more servers) so what does that prove other than your racial undertones?
If other games could compete with wow then they would capitalize on the subscribers who leave wow. They would steal subscribers away with their gameplay. The fact is almost every single other mmo has failed to capitalize on the biggest boom in mmo history. Almost every single fantasy mmo in that time has shrank or bombed. What more do you need to know that there is a problem elsewhere? |
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4/13/09 3:42:26 AM#75
Originally posted by Daffid011
There are more Buddists in China than there are people in America. Does that mean we should all convert to Buddism?
Directed at all those defending WOW: You guys need to pick an argument and stick with it. Seriosuly, every time I hear people brag about WOW, they bring up numbers, then when I prove that the vast majority of players are from the gold farmer part of the world, they start talking about how numbers don't matter. Pick one. Either the numbers matter, and you are going to concede that WOW is a gold farmer game, OR you're going start trying to defend WOW on it's actual merits. Instead of saying "More people play WOW BGs than all others combined", try "WOW BGs are good because ... ____________." People who are fed up with WOW really won't care that more gold farmers play WOW than all other MMOs combined, even WOW itself. WTF does religion have to do with this? How about you try to stick to one issue for more than 10 seconds? No one is saying numbers matter and number don't matter. They are saying you are being ignorant and your points are invalid, poorly stated and draw on false conclusions. Wow is the most popular mmo in the west. Wow is the most popular mmo in the east. What does the ratio of players east vs west have to do with anything? How on earth does that prove your idiotic 9 million gold farmer theory? How does anything you have said prove any ratio of players to gold farmers other than your pure speculation? Post some facts or shut up already. Give some figures for gold farmers. Not subscribers, not asians or any other abstract implied number that you concoct from some napkin math. So more people play wow in asia (and on more servers) so what does that prove other than your racial undertones?
If other games could compete with wow then they would capitalize on the subscribers who leave wow. They would steal subscribers away with their gameplay. The fact is almost every single other mmo has failed to capitalize on the biggest boom in mmo history. Almost every single fantasy mmo in that time has shrank or bombed. What more do you need to know that there is a problem elsewhere? Religion was used as an analogy, because it makes more of an impact than saying McDonald's for the 100th time. But, if you can't pick up on that without having it spelled out, then I'm not so sure we're even talking on the same level. I mean, I had a friend read the post, and it was pretty easy for him to see that it was a popularity comparasin and not some random religious debate plucked from nowhere. You do remember that this is the middle of the thread and not the original post, right? You don't seem to be getting my overall point. WOW is largely dominated by gold sellers. Yeah, so what if it's not 9 million? *9* million was never the point. It was a numerical metaphor. I can say I'm thirsty enough to drink 10 gallons of water, but that doesn't mean I will literally sit down and drink 10 gallons. If I had intended to post an actual 100% accurate number, I'd have linked my sources. When I'm not using a metaphor, I always link them because it's easier than trying to argue afterwards, as evidenced by this very thread. Judas Priest, son, that number was such an obvious joke. I didn't think anybody would take it literally. You honestly think that I believed ~80% of the accounts were gold farmers? If you honestly thought such a thing, I don't know how to respond. Even though tone doesn't show up on a message board, some things are not meant to be taken literally. Do the gold farmer accounts outnumber the"legitimate" accounts? Let's just say that it has not been disproven. That's my point. Let me say again, my point is that gold farmer accounts could possibly outnumber the other accounts in WOW. It's quite likely, and it's a problem. I can't think of another American game in which the Asian accounts outnumber the American ones. It's not a population issue or a popularity issue. It's an issue of banned and reopened gold farmer accounts; supply and demand. Gold farmers supply gold. Players buy it. Blizzard bans farmer accounts. Competitors open new accounts. The original farmers open new accounts. It's win/win for Blizzard and for the gold farmers, and as long as it seems as if Blizzard is taking a strong stance against gold farmers, they and the farmers will both laugh all the way to the bank. As for being upset at the changes to WOW, I had to chuckle at that post. PVE gear dominated WOW's PVP at launch, and PVE gear is now the king once more. Resilience fixed PVP, then Blizzard broke resilience. When they broke resilience, they reverted PVP back to the state it was in at launch. This was their biggest mistake with Wrath. It was broken, then they fixed it, but they revoked their fix with the new expansion and left it broken. GG Blizz :/
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