I would have to say that I am losing faith that MMO's are going to be fun again.

But enough about me(crotchety old bastard that I am), what do you think? 

Nice poll you put up but it doesnt pertain to the state of current MMO's if you want to do that then judge the genre by the amount of new MMO's compared to how they will change the rest of the ones that been out. or even better judge the new MMO's by the ones that have failed and try to explain why they failed. Ive seen MMO's with the hype meter go thru the roof yet still die while others people over look and 3 years later they re still there, a prime example is Tabula Rasa and Asheron's Call, I know they are of different genres in the MMO field but still they are prime examples of the current state of MMO's. Tabula Rasa was hyped up because Lord British (of the Ultima CRPG brand) himself was the creator of the game yet it still did not bring in the amount of people NCSoft thought so they had to shut it down. While Asheron's Call came in to the MMO field under the radar and 10 years later is still going strong. What Im trying to get at is dont let others define which game to play try them all and youll see there is a lot more to an MMO than someones comments.

50% say its in a crappy state? lol...and i totally agree...

To many people who hype games that are just like WoW.. Make way for Huxley, Mortal, and Star trek online

Originally posted by yukumo

50% say its in a crappy state? lol...and i totally agree...

 

To many people who hype games that are just like WoW.. Make way for Huxley, Mortal, and Star trek online

You need slightly more than 8 votes to judge a poll by its percentages.

Current state?

Shit.

MMOs are dying for lack of innovation, literally. It feels like I've already played 75% of the MMOs that come out without ever logging in. 

The market is stagnant.  MMOs are too risky for the large publishers to risk innovating.  The smaller publishers that will take the risk tend to execute poorly.  The irony is that copycat is a safe play for non-MMOs, but for MMOs, it is usually fatal.

We are now seeing F2P games that are graphically equivalent to their P2P counterparts with as many classes or more, and carbon copies of most classes and abilties.   This is very similar to the state of MUDs in their heyday.   MUD A was only better than MUD B because of some innovative feature that kept people coming back.  There was no competing on price or graphics, just content. 

I think we are seeing the last generation of monolithic 5 year+ MMOs with Hollywood budgets.  Unlike a movie, after the release there are costs for ongoing support and infrastructure that erode the ROI that shareholders need to see.  

This is what I think should happen for the industry to move forward:  Standardize on 1 or 2 engines, such as the engine Bioware chose to license for SWTOR.   Consolidate on a set of assets much like we see in the modding communities (many of which are better than the originals).   When the barriers to entry (cost) and financial risks decrease, the opportunities for innovation will increase.

The state of the MMO market and how I feel about the market are two separate things. I personally enjoy the game I play (games actually - 2 of them) and for me, as long as I am having fun and have a reason to log in and pay $15 a month, I will continue to play.

Now as to the state of the MMO, it is a beyond stagnant pool full of sharks swimming in circles smelling blood in the water. The market will de-evolve as fast as it has evolved since it became a common, ever day thing (as opposed to back in the days of EQ when the market was limited). The problem with the market is two-fold. First game companies *think* they know what EVERY players wants and wants to rush a game out the door ASAP to cash in on that. The major problem with this is that they release copycat games, with similar features. Nobody really wants to take a chance anymore. And who, honestly, can blame them? Two of the biggest MMO's to ever launch failed miserably (AOC and WAR) - and I mean fail by their internal standards and subscribe/revenue expectations. The reasons they failed and many and varied but suffice it to say, this hurt the market more than anything.

See many people think the failure of WAR and AOC was a good thing. It would show the devs and the companies that incomplete, crappy, mis-advertised games will not succeed. I see it a different way. I see it as you can have a game with an unlimited budget, a huge dev company with tons of experience and see tens of millions of dollars go right down the drain. They do not understand that its the lack of innovation thats killing the market. They are scared to innovate because it does not equal profit. As much as we hate to think it, the market is driven by sub numbers and revenue. So with the fear to innovate and the fear that even big name games name can fail, development companies do what is safe: they copy the big man on campus and do what it does. And good or bad, that big man is WOW.

People like to say "well look at EVE. It's small and deifferent and independent and its doing well". Well it is true but it is the exception to the rule. Most independent MMO's don't do so well and barely seem to break even.

Where do I see the market going? I think one of two things will happen. I think the market will self-correct. Many games will fail (released games close and unreleased games get canceled). We willbe left with the major games: LOTRO, WOW, EQ/EQ2, and a few others. Many smaller games companies will fold or be absorbed into others and the market will slowly return to a small, niche market.

One thing that would change this would be a GOOD and SUCCESSFUL port of a major MMO to the major consoles. That is the untapped market in which MMO's could continue to grow.

The other major thing I think might happen is we will see a continued alternative revenue model. Forget $15 a month. We will see a cross between RMT and paying for content. Companies will have to approach a change carefully but changing the revnue stream is a possibility.

A lot is riding on two major upcoming MMO launches: Champion's Online and Star Wars. These games need to launch well, deliver on the promises and rectify the mistakes that AOC and WAR made. Until then the state of MMO's is stagnant and maybe by then we will see some innovation and progress.

Even though I'm not a Star Wars fan, it will be interesting to see what Bioware accomplishes with their "first truly storen driven mmo".  Sounds like there may be some innovation coming with that game.  Perhaps that will start moving things in a new direction.  We'll see, however.  I definitely think the current state is horrible.  Basically take your pick of a theme and level up to a certain number and then raid endlessly for gear.  The mmo community as a whole seems to be getting more and more sick of this so sooner or later someone will deliver something new, hopefully..

The whole game genre is changing atm. Its splitting up into smaller chunks each specializing in different types of gamers and will less ambition to be the next big thing.

This is good. It means the games begin to change themselves to individual and variable tastes instead of everyone should be "forced" to play the same game no matter if its the right game for them or not.

In my case I had more or less given up on the entire game genre after the AoC and WaR disapointments and a general loathing of the worship of the holy trinity and how games seem to move more and more towards item whoring instead of adventure.

But them all of a sudden a little game who have had very little attention pops up called The Chronicles of Spellborn and it was the answers to my woes. :) It most certainly is not a game for most MMO players but for me it was THE right game to play where my tastes run now and it doesnt try to be a super big hit, it just caters to players like me and that makes me happy.

If you look at other new games like Kotor online or the agency you begin to see that they move away from the WoW model and try to get an audience that wants something different from WoW instead of competing with WoW. In this enviroment we will see a fragemtation of the general mmo community and there will be a bit more chaos as to the quality and success of games but the result will in the end be better games for a wider audience so the future looks good for players and not so good for conformist businessmen that wants easy predictable money.

Nice poll. Outta 46 votes...the majority are with the OP feeling MMOs are kinda stale at the moment.

I keep watching for what is comming out. I doubt I willin the end find enjoyment from any of the bigger gaming companies. I will probibly find what I am looking for from a smaller indi company. These smaller companies are the ones willing to step out from WoW shadow and try something different. And are not interested in getting the WoW sub numbers...but happy to have a smaller, loyal fanbase and keep their game fun and interesting for those people.

Originally posted by talismen351

Nice poll. Outta 46 votes...the majority are with the OP feeling MMOs are kinda stale at the moment.

I keep watching for what is comming out. I doubt I willin the end find enjoyment from any of the bigger gaming companies. I will probibly find what I am looking for from a smaller indi company. These smaller companies are the ones willing to step out from WoW shadow and try something different. And are not interested in getting the WoW sub numbers...but happy to have a smaller, loyal fanbase and keep their game fun and interesting for those people.

I agree that the indie companies are the ones willing to push the envelope. Darkfall, for all its problems (and it has quite a few) is still a lot fresher than most of the other MMOs released in the last year.

Paramount to a succesful MMO is the ability to deliver a competitive and finished product at release with minimal bugs, everything else is moot. Some try too hard and some are just satisfied to live off WoW bread crumbs. I think the MMO companies that think big don't have the big corporate backings to really spend money on a good MMO like Darkfall and Fallen Earth.

Hows about we rate the current state of MMO players.

They get a 3 out of 10.   If you don't like the game, don't play the game.

So you don't have the game you want, boo hoo, cry cry.  You don't always get what you want.

Originally posted by Malakath

MMOs are dying for lack of innovation, literally. It feels like I've already played 75% of the MMOs that come out without ever logging in. 

The market is stagnant.  MMOs are too risky for the large publishers to risk innovating.  The smaller publishers that will take the risk tend to execute poorly.  The irony is that copycat is a safe play for non-MMOs, but for MMOs, it is usually fatal.

We are now seeing F2P games that are graphically equivalent to their P2P counterparts with as many classes or more, and carbon copies of most classes and abilties.   This is very similar to the state of MUDs in their heyday.   MUD A was only better than MUD B because of some innovative feature that kept people coming back.  There was no competing on price or graphics, just content. 

I think we are seeing the last generation of monolithic 5 year+ MMOs with Hollywood budgets.  Unlike a movie, after the release there are costs for ongoing support and infrastructure that erode the ROI that shareholders need to see.  

This is what I think should happen for the industry to move forward:  Standardize on 1 or 2 engines, such as the engine Bioware chose to license for SWTOR.   Consolidate on a set of assets much like we see in the modding communities (many of which are better than the originals).   When the barriers to entry (cost) and financial risks decrease, the opportunities for innovation will increase.

So where's a question for ya.  Is it innovation to make a mmo "more".  See, my vote in the original poll was the first one, lack of innovation, stagnation, yada yada.  But to be honest, I don't need innovation in my mmo.  I need "more".  I want treasure hunting without bop for a healthy and robust economy, I want in-depth player crafting with rare components found while treasure hunting, I want meaningful pvp with controllable zones and fights over resources, I want resources ala SWG that have varying stats, I want player housing, I want a gigantic world, I want player cites in this world (some of which can be battled over in pvp), I want non-combat roles for people who like to play classes like entertainer or tailor or image specialist. 

That's just a partial list of what I want in a hybrid mmo that combines the sandbox with linear elements.  No innovation is required.  Just "more".  I don't want a game that focuses on pvp or pve, I don't want a game that is purely linear (wow) or a game that is purely a sandbox (pre-cu swg).  I want a happy freakin' medium.  I want a game that a LOT of people will want to play, with HUGE freakin' servers that hold hundreds of thousands of people.  I am sick of niche.  I'm ready for a truly mass market mmo that strives to meet the varying degrees of interest of multiple play styles.

Again, no innovation required, at least for me.  So back to the question again.  Is it innovation to make a mmo "more"?  Are people looking for true innovation, or are they looking for a more in depth game?  Let me know your thoughts....

@Zaxxon

If I may reword the question:  Is it innovation to assemble our favorite features from past MMOs into a new MMO?   No, but it is a part of the equation.  The set of features or ingredients does not yield innovation. It's in the composition that innovation occurs.  Just as a cooking recipe is not just the list of ingredients, it's the proportions that make it work.
 

Consider this statement: "Just "more". I don't want a game that focuses on pvp or pve, I don't want a game that is purely linear (wow) or a game that is purely a sandbox (pre-cu swg). I want a happy freakin' medium."    Happy medium is a way of saying how much balance you want to see between certain features, and I think that is spot on.

I would argue that 90% or more of the games released since 2004 are attempting to take features that were well received in past games, assemble them and produce a new product.  I would argue that they have the set of ingredients but have done very little with the proportions to produce something new.  Messing with the proportions can produce just as much risk as it does reward, but that's what it's going to take.  The bigger the budget, the less likely a publisher will take a risk.  

Every MMO is a risk obviously.  The problem in my opinion is that the developers and publishers are investing large portions of their budget on the wrong things.  Graphics do not win the day for MMOs but they do for shooters.   A deep story wins the day for single player RPGs but it is marginal at best for an MMO.  

Player interaction wins the day in MMOs.   Think about what motivates many people.  It's not simply obtaining object X.  It's being one of few people to obtain object X so that they can show others how awesome they are.  Just as a $100,000 car is largely a status symbol in the real world, not a mode of transportation.   A group of players wants to control a city, a symbol of their achievement for other players on the server to see.  

I am optimistic that the innovation will occur eventually.  Companies cannot fail indefinitely.  Eventually someone will recall a classic definition of insanity: doing the same over and over expecting a different result.

MMORPGs have milked the same old, tired, boring, repetitive game play for all it's worth.  The difference (game play wise) between the early MMOs and what we have now is very little.  They're still focused on combat systems that are only slightly less boring and repetitive than what we used to have.  Genres like FPS can get away with this because, well, they've always had entertaining/engaging combat.

For some of us, it only really takes one MMO before we feel like we've seen all the genre has to offer.  After that, it's just more of the same old shit in a different box.  No one has fixed any of the real problems, they've just made the genre more accessible.

Eventually, some one is going to release an MMO that's nothing like what we've seen before.  That might be 10 years from now, but I'll be glad to see it when it gets here.

Nice poll. I'll see  which would be the fastest sandbox game been ruined . lol    , I still love WoW

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Hows about we rate the current state of MMO players.

They get a 3 out of 10.   If you don't like the game, don't play the game.

So you don't have the game you want, boo hoo, cry cry.  You don't always get what you want.

 

 

Being that you're almost 40 years old and make posts like a 13 year old would, you get a 1 out of 10.

Originally posted by Tatum

MMORPGs have milked the same old, tired, boring, repetitive game play for all it's worth.  The difference (game play wise) between the early MMOs and what we have now is very little.  They're still focused on combat systems that are only slightly less boring and repetitive than what we used to have.  Genres like FPS can get away with this because, well, they've always had entertaining/engaging combat.

For some of us, it only really takes one MMO before we feel like we've seen all the genre has to offer.  After that, it's just more of the same old shit in a different box.  No one has fixed any of the real problems, they've just made the genre more accessible.

Eventually, some one is going to release an MMO that's nothing like what we've seen before.  That might be 10 years from now, but I'll be glad to see it when it gets here.

I'll be glad when that MMO gets here too.

I want to highlight what Tatum says about FPS.  FPS has advanced in graphics, responsiveness of their engines, net code, control mechanisms like ducking behind cover and other technical things.   The reason this works so well and is well received by players is because these things actually advance that genre.   Consider that a single player story is almost always more rewarding than being a medieval FedEx delivery man for X levels.

The content in an FPS is player vs player competition after completing the single player game.  Maps, deathmatch rulesets.   Playing with a small group of their friends trying to beat the trashtalking bunch of guys who think they're better. 

The content in an MMO is progression, not player vs player competition.   In an FPS, everyone's avatar is the same and the differentiator is a player's twitch skills and knowledge of the maps.  In an MMO, the differentiator is the character's progression, which is a function of pre-generated content.

Until developers recognize and embrace the fact that the same game with new tech does not drive MMOs like it drives FPSs, the stagnation will  continue.

Originally posted by Blackbandit9

Originally posted by yukumo

50% say its in a crappy state? lol...and i totally agree...

 

To many people who hype games that are just like WoW.. Make way for Huxley, Mortal, and Star trek online

 

You need slightly more than 8 votes to judge a poll by its percentages.

Yep. 200+ votes would be needed for a proper sample, and even then these forums are known for being rather pessimistic, elitist and negative. ;-)

I wrote an article regarding an overview of the 2008 MMO season.

The 2008 MMORPG Year in Review

I think it is a shame that a grp of sandbox players control these forums in essence.

Any talk of MMOs is automatically stymied into another sandbox same ole BS thread. Pve discussion is discouraged.

Which is a shame, since this is a general MMO site. PvE is the most popular form of MMO gaming among the masses. Yet discussions about it, which might produce good ideas, are always interupted here.

And lets not kid ourselves...the threads arent sidetracked....they are always rudely sidetracked. Flaming train wrecks lots of times.

MMORPG.com should be a cornerstone in helping move the MMO genre....cause quite frankly MMOs as a whole are a niche market. I see no reason the niche of a niche should be given so much voice, when the genre as a whole is still so volatile, and probably always will remain so.

Lets face it...these games cost tons of money, and with no guaranteed return. The single player game is a lot less riskier investment, and us MMOers wish companies to keep investing. 200k subs isnt a reasonable return on 40M or more upfront capital, in companies minds, after WoW pushed to make MMOs mainstream.

Which isnt to say that sandbox games shouldnt be made...they just should be budgeted accordingly, and their fan base should quit expecting every block buster should be targeted at them. Their numbers just dont warrant it, and as such, it would be nice if places like MMORPG were allowed to have discussions without them piping up all the time.

Its dead Jim, Mmo's is so 1998ish.

It could be worse but I'm looking forward to what is coming on than what is actually in now. Champions, Aion, The Old Republic,Guild Wars 2 and Fallen Earth. Everything is a wait and see these days.