Simu is still making a profit from their MUDs, but who knows about the Engine. Licensing deals confuse the heck out of me and there is some realistic comments about Simu borrowing some substantial amounts of money to get the engine done. With the credit well pretty much dried up, this could very well account for the layoffs and the decision to put JH on the backburner.

I don't agree that it's over. The powers at the top would like to finish the game. Now, whether the MMO marketplace and the economy will allow that to happen, we'll see. I for one would like to see it come out, but even if it doesn't, there are plenty of good MMOs coming.

Well they make money when a company recieves liscence to develope a game, or multiple games with their engine. They probably made a substantial amount of money off BioWare, and probably the same with the other companies who have liscenced it (last I heard there were 3 who had liscenced it last year) so my guess would be that they decided they make more money off the engine, and to make Hero's Journey just ends up spending that money, more than they are comfortable with.

 When I did some research on licensing of the engine, it seemed to imply that the maker of the engine only received any substantial amount of money on residuals. So until the game is released by BioWare, Simu may have already used it's initial license fee up already. That would definitely cash strap Simu.

I have suspected for a long time ( I started watching the game 2 years ago) that HJ and its super slow development is a promo front for the Hero game dev engine.   There may have been plans at some point to maybe see it though but I think it has served its purpose in promoting the game engine.   They release some screenies and some concept art once or twice a year or so.  

Oh it also made an official list of vaporware awards this year ... along with duke nukem forever LOL.

As with a lot of companies they had lay offs not long ago [rumors from their own forums] so I cant see them putting much into it any time soon honestly.    Its a shame too the ideas in the game had more potential than any others I have seen.

 They did have some really good ideas, especially with player actions affecting the world in sweeping ways. You actions could actually have affected other aspects of the game for other players. Now it seems all their great ideas are being taken by other MMOs, so even if it does come out eventually, it will probably seem tired and not very imaginative. All because they dragged their feet.

So much doom and gloom. The OFFICIAL word is that HJ is still under development, unless someone can actually point me to a GM saying otherwise. Even if there were layoffs, which in this economy would hardly be surprising,  that's not exactly a death knell.

 The title is wrong. Technically it's not over. Even the people at Simu will tell you that it's still in production. However, certain things did come to light. Hero's Journey was created to highlight their world building tool Hero's Engine. Originally they thought they would have to have an actual game out to sell licenses to their Hero's Engine. In fact, several studios have licensed the Hero's Engine and Hero's Journey became instantly a secondary concern. Now, Hero's Journey is currently staffed with nothing but volunteers working with Hero's Engine. They have lost some of their volunteers to some of the same studios that license the Hero's Engine as now they can get paid for their expertise on a live product coming out soon, whereas HJ will come out one day when someone feels it might be interesting for some to play.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's deserved and it's not. I love the volunteers at Simu, but the owner of Simu doesn't have the best track record when it comes to getting games and upgrades to market. He tends to enjoy his toys a bit more.

Still, I hope HJ does see the light of day. As a former Dragonrealms player and GameHost, I always loved the quality of their games, even if it did take a too long to get stuff in the game. The players were always of the highest quality, especially when it came to true roleplayers. If HJ ever becomes the graphical equivalent of their MUDs, HJ will be a huge success. The only problem is that when it does come out, it will be more of a sigh of relief than a cheer of excitement.

Originally posted by drundle

Don't count on HJ ever coming out.  Word is, they just had massive layoffs (20-something people).

Actually, i just spoke with the folks from Simutronics at GDC and they told me that the game was in production. It had been on the back burner for a while, but there are now two distinct teams (game and engine). So, unless i was specifically lied to (and I don't see how that would benefit them), the game is still a go. You might want to think about changing the thread title.

That is good news to hear, thank you stradden.

 phewf,

 I'm not surprised they have different teams now. From what information I've gathered, HJ is now on full volunteer status where as HE is on full pay status. That doesn't mean that HJ is getting the lesser of the talent, but they might have the lesser of the resources from Simu. Dragonrealms and GemStone are both done by a full set of volunteers and they are great games. Upgrades though are slow to show.

Hey I've applied in that volenteer thing, I worked my but off to apply and was rejected, you gots to have skills to apply yo do anything for HJ.

As a former Gemstone player from back in the Genie days, I can tell you that Simu's history is that they take FOREVER to release anything and are typicaly horrible about keeping their player community informed about the progress of anything. That being said, I have yet to see them fail to release anything that they said they were going to release. Those releases may happen YEARS after the initial release date was set...but they do EVENTUALY tend to get done.

I'd be very surprised if, at some point down the road (as long as Simu is still in business), they didn't release a game called Hero's Journey. I would not, neccesarly, be surprised if we were all in retirement homes by then.

Originally posted by calmyron

 The title is wrong. Technically it's not over. Even the people at Simu will tell you that it's still in production. However, certain things did come to light. Hero's Journey was created to highlight their world building tool Hero's Engine. Originally they thought they would have to have an actual game out to sell licenses to their Hero's Engine. In fact, several studios have licensed the Hero's Engine and Hero's Journey became instantly a secondary concern. Now, Hero's Journey is currently staffed with nothing but volunteers working with Hero's Engine. They have lost some of their volunteers to some of the same studios that license the Hero's Engine as now they can get paid for their expertise on a live product coming out soon, whereas HJ will come out one day when someone feels it might be interesting for some to play.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's deserved and it's not. I love the volunteers at Simu, but the owner of Simu doesn't have the best track record when it comes to getting games and upgrades to market. He tends to enjoy his toys a bit more.

Still, I hope HJ does see the light of day...

...

I'm not surprised they have different teams now. From what information I've gathered, HJ is now on full volunteer status where as HE is on full pay status. That doesn't mean that HJ is getting the lesser of the talent, but they might have the lesser of the resources from Simu. Dragonrealms and GemStone are both done by a full set of volunteers and they are great games. Upgrades though are slow to show.

Just to clarify a few points, HJ is not being worked on by just volunteers.  Hopefully that will save you some looking around.

As for the stuff stated about the owner, maybe you have met him, maybe you have not.  From my own personal experience, I'd say your assessment is not very fair.  Nor is the assessment that HJ was just a bait-and-switch (demo for the engine).  It just... didn't happen that way.

I can understand people's frustration for the amount of time things have taken.  It's frustrating for the developers too.  But it isn't anyone's fault.  Creating an engine from scratch and a game from scratch is quite an undertaking.  This industry is cold, brutal, and highly competitive.  Strange though, because games are such a fun, warm, and fuzzy past-time (traditionally).  But it's a business too.  Some studios have a lot of resources and manpower at their disposal.  Others have to take things at their own pace.

Money doesn't grow on trees, and, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself (I'm starting to sound like my parents...)

The fact HE is a product being sold is good news for Hero's Journey. Some don't see it that way, but I do. It's a testament to the sophisticated technology that is driving the game.

I had wondered why this game dropped off the radar a few years back. Nice to hear it's not been forgotten.

It makes sense for a company to go after income developing their own game engine and licensing it out. Esp. this post-WoW market with other developers all wanting to get into the MMORPG space but the current economic market makes it difficult to develop their own engines. It really is the perfect time for Simutronics to do bring out an engine that saves MMORPG developers time and effort (which both equal money).

Plus the income from licensing the Hero Engine will help fund their development of HJ and that's always a headache for developers. It's actually nice to hear the Simutronics takes their time with releasing their products, few things need that kind of attention more than a MMORPG, but it's so diffiult to get the funding to do it right. Simutronics may have found a way to just that.

  I can imgine when they realized they could sell there Engine it was like a lightbulb going off. Given the choice between the hard slob to the finish line just making the game or selling the engine and going at the mmorpg part with substanial funds later wouldnt be to hard a choice. Especially when companies like Bioware waved money in from of Simutronics. Youd know you had something good to put on sale if they showed interest. 

  Im curious to see how long it takes to get the pile of mash potatoes back to a simmer.

Well just because a GM came down here and said it's not over doesn't mean it's not over. He's probably playing an april fool's joke on you all. Yeah.

Sorry I just wanted to give the trolls something to hope for, because I feel sorry for them now.

Originally posted by Samuraisword

Good news. One less crappy release to deal with.

I just thought this statement was funny, especially with your sig.

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN

Originally posted by calmyron

 The title is wrong. Technically it's not over. Even the people at Simu will tell you that it's still in production. However, certain things did come to light. Hero's Journey was created to highlight their world building tool Hero's Engine. Originally they thought they would have to have an actual game out to sell licenses to their Hero's Engine. In fact, several studios have licensed the Hero's Engine and Hero's Journey became instantly a secondary concern. Now, Hero's Journey is currently staffed with nothing but volunteers working with Hero's Engine. They have lost some of their volunteers to some of the same studios that license the Hero's Engine as now they can get paid for their expertise on a live product coming out soon, whereas HJ will come out one day when someone feels it might be interesting for some to play.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's deserved and it's not. I love the volunteers at Simu, but the owner of Simu doesn't have the best track record when it comes to getting games and upgrades to market. He tends to enjoy his toys a bit more.

Still, I hope HJ does see the light of day...

...

I'm not surprised they have different teams now. From what information I've gathered, HJ is now on full volunteer status where as HE is on full pay status. That doesn't mean that HJ is getting the lesser of the talent, but they might have the lesser of the resources from Simu. Dragonrealms and GemStone are both done by a full set of volunteers and they are great games. Upgrades though are slow to show.

 

Just to clarify a few points, HJ is not being worked on by just volunteers.  Hopefully that will save you some looking around.

 

As for the stuff stated about the owner, maybe you have met him, maybe you have not.  From my own personal experience, I'd say your assessment is not very fair.  Nor is the assessment that HJ was just a bait-and-switch (demo for the engine).  It just... didn't happen that way.

 

I can understand people's frustration for the amount of time things have taken.  It's frustrating for the developers too.  But it isn't anyone's fault.  Creating an engine from scratch and a game from scratch is quite an undertaking.  This industry is cold, brutal, and highly competitive.  Strange though, because games are such a fun, warm, and fuzzy past-time (traditionally).  But it's a business too.  Some studios have a lot of resources and manpower at their disposal.  Others have to take things at their own pace.

 

Money doesn't grow on trees, and, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself (I'm starting to sound like my parents...)

 

The fact HE is a product being sold is good news for Hero's Journey. Some don't see it that way, but I do. It's a testament to the sophisticated technology that is driving the game.

 

I never actually said that HJ was a bait and switch. However, in the recent interview about HE, it was stated there that Simu felt they would have to produce a game before they could sell the engine.  They were surprised that other studios approached them when they heard the engine was available for licensing. So, Simu decided to go ahead and license the engine even though HJ wasn't complete.

So that's not special insider news, that's directly from a recent interview.

Now, while many of us really do understand that building the engine for an MMO is no small undertaking, Simu has provided release dates, even though they were a bit vague about when in a year, they did give a year. They have missed those dates every time. Recently it came to light that the licensing of the HE has taken the front burner to resources since it's now the cash cow of Simu. I don't mind that Simu has slipped their date. It's frustrating to a degree, but being a Dragonrealms player since 1997 (if I remember correctly... I rejoined after they went to the net from AOL), I'm used to Simu either being vague on when things come out or out right changing what was coming out at all. Complete systems that were promised have been scrapped.

So, with the recent events and interviews, and Simu's past history, it has lead many to worry about HJ ever seeing the light of day. Personally, I do believe it will come out one day. My worry is that once it comes out, all the features that would have made it unique will have been taken by other MMOs and it will seem just like every other game out there.

On a personal note, I'm also quite disappointed with the lack of commitment to the RP community as a whole. Dragonrealms has a very dedicated RP community and HJ has not committed to even having an RP only server. They haven't locked the door on this issue, but they have certainly closed it. One of the things that made DR so special to so many was that roleplaying was required and could even get you suspended if you didn't. Now, obviously, graphical MMOs are a different breed from MUDs, but just plain ignoring your strongest customer base seems... odd.

Well, as it's said, an artist is as good as his brushes.  Or was it a builder is only as good as his tools?  Regardless, with a strong foundation to work on, a lot more is possible.  All the polish that goes into HE will ultimately reflect positively on HJ, but again, there's that time thing.

It's difficult for me to empathize on the features you mention.  Heated seats are a nice feature on a car, that at the end of the day, don't necessarily mean I will like the car or not.  If they are there, hey that's nice, if not, ah well.  Maybe some other time.  Does that make sense?  Maybe there's specific ones you are worried about, but you haven't declared them.

Ultimately, it's how you like the game itself, not the gadgets or features that may be offered.  A lot of cool "knick knacks" can keep you distracted, but a poorly conceived game is just a poorly conceived game.  But even then, that's based on opinion.  I don't particularly care for Guild Wars, but tons of people really enjoy it.  To each their own.  Even if some other game comes out with the features you are thinking of, it may be a sci-fi, or post-apocolyptical... Maybe not the genre you really care for.

Of course, I cannot predict how RP-integrated the final product will be.  I'm just not sure.  All I can really go off is what most people already know.  Simutronics is known for niche games that tend to place more emphasis on role playing than Sham-WOW! type game play or features.  Considering GMs are an important part of Simutronics not just as customer service reps, but interactive dungeon-master type individuals, the experience may be superior than what is currently available.  Clearly, more market appeal is desired (as it's been said), but I don't think it'll be all that bad.

But I can't say at this point.  Partly because it's not something easy to predict, and partly because I really can't say a lot to begin with :)

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread now.  I'd rather be bumping another title to the top... :)

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN

Well, as it's said, an artist is as good as his brushes.  Or was it a builder is only as good as his tools?  Regardless, with a strong foundation to work on, a lot more is possible.  All the polish that goes into HE will ultimately reflect positively on HJ, but again, there's that time thing.

 

It's difficult for me to empathize on the features you mention.  Heated seats are a nice feature on a car, that at the end of the day, don't necessarily mean I will like the car or not.  If they are there, hey that's nice, if not, ah well.  Maybe some other time.  Does that make sense?  Maybe there's specific ones you are worried about, but you haven't declared them.

 

Ultimately, it's how you like the game itself, not the gadgets or features that may be offered.  A lot of cool "knick knacks" can keep you distracted, but a poorly conceived game is just a poorly conceived game.  But even then, that's based on opinion.  I don't particularly care for Guild Wars, but tons of people really enjoy it.  To each their own.  Even if some other game comes out with the features you are thinking of, it may be a sci-fi, or post-apocolyptical... Maybe not the genre you really care for.

 

Of course, I cannot predict how RP-integrated the final product will be.  I'm just not sure.  All I can really go off is what most people already know.  Simutronics is known for niche games that tend to place more emphasis on role playing than Sham-WOW! type game play or features.  Considering GMs are an important part of Simutronics not just as customer service reps, but interactive dungeon-master type individuals, the experience may be superior than what is currently available.  Clearly, more market appeal is desired (as it's been said), but I don't think it'll be all that bad.

But I can't say at this point.  Partly because it's not something easy to predict, and partly because I really can't say a lot to begin with :)

 

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread now.  I'd rather be bumping another title to the top... :)

QFT, currently any well constructed MMO will do well most of them have zero design and are i'll thought out

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN

Well, as it's said, an artist is as good as his brushes.  Or was it a builder is only as good as his tools?  Regardless, with a strong foundation to work on, a lot more is possible.  All the polish that goes into HE will ultimately reflect positively on HJ, but again, there's that time thing.

 

It's difficult for me to empathize on the features you mention.  Heated seats are a nice feature on a car, that at the end of the day, don't necessarily mean I will like the car or not.  If they are there, hey that's nice, if not, ah well.  Maybe some other time.  Does that make sense?  Maybe there's specific ones you are worried about, but you haven't declared them.

 

Ultimately, it's how you like the game itself, not the gadgets or features that may be offered.  A lot of cool "knick knacks" can keep you distracted, but a poorly conceived game is just a poorly conceived game.  But even then, that's based on opinion.  I don't particularly care for Guild Wars, but tons of people really enjoy it.  To each their own.  Even if some other game comes out with the features you are thinking of, it may be a sci-fi, or post-apocolyptical... Maybe not the genre you really care for.

 

Of course, I cannot predict how RP-integrated the final product will be.  I'm just not sure.  All I can really go off is what most people already know.  Simutronics is known for niche games that tend to place more emphasis on role playing than Sham-WOW! type game play or features.  Considering GMs are an important part of Simutronics not just as customer service reps, but interactive dungeon-master type individuals, the experience may be superior than what is currently available.  Clearly, more market appeal is desired (as it's been said), but I don't think it'll be all that bad.

But I can't say at this point.  Partly because it's not something easy to predict, and partly because I really can't say a lot to begin with :)

 

Anyway, I'm going to duck out of this thread now.  I'd rather be bumping another title to the top... :)

Well, I'm not sure about kewl knick-knacks, but two main features that were originally touted at a convention in '05 were non-linear gameplay and how players actions would actually effect the world. One of the non-linear features that struck me was when a party was confronted with a larger group of NPCs. Instead of just rushing in and doing battle, one of the players caused a landslide above the NPCs. That was an amazing piece, showing out of the box thinking. Unfortunately, now that HJ has been on the burner for so long, these features are being touted by others and due to come out soon, easily before HJ.

Again, I want to emphasize that I admire Simu's ability to create great games. My frustration isn't with that. It's just the constantly slipped release dates. This isn't something new for Simu though. Features for DR were always slipping their dates. Sometimes, promised features were complete scrapped. It's these kind of things that worry people. When we see a truly unique MMO show how great gameplay can be and then the date slips and no information is forthcoming, it makes us think the project might have been scrapped. For those who don't know, HJ has been scrapped before when it was going to be designed as a UO graphically styled game over 10 years ago. So there is precident.

As for the RP only server, on the official HJ forums where this has been discussed, it was stated many times that Simu has no plans to create such a server. So this isn't opinion. I'm just repeating what was stated by a HJ GM on the official play.net forums in the Hero's Journey section.

Depsite all of this, if HJ does come out,  I'll be there on the first day.

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by drundle

Don't count on HJ ever coming out.  Word is, they just had massive layoffs (20-something people).

 

Actually, i just spoke with the folks from Simutronics at GDC and they told me that the game was in production. It had been on the back burner for a while, but there are now two distinct teams (game and engine). So, unless i was specifically lied to (and I don't see how that would benefit them), the game is still a go. You might want to think about changing the thread title.

This is so funny.

"In Development" is such a broad term. It could mean they have 30 on-site staff and 150 volunteers working on it, and they'll release in July... or it could mean they have 1 on-site staff that shares his time 90% working on the Engine and 10% supervising the 20 volunteers working on it and it will never be released.

Duke Nukem is "in development" too.

Notice nobody at Simu Will NEVER, EVER give you a number of people working on it. Or the number of people laid off. They just say their mantra of the vague and ambiguous 'we're working on it'. I'm in IT and the only people I tell 'we're working on it' to is to the people with problems I have no intention of fixing in the immediate future.

Originally posted by Ragnaven

Hey I've applied in that volenteer thing, I worked my but off to apply and was rejected, you gots to have skills to apply yo do anything for HJ.

What you thought making a game was going to be like Little Big Planet? lol

Originally posted by Valendros

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by drundle

Don't count on HJ ever coming out.  Word is, they just had massive layoffs (20-something people).

 

Actually, i just spoke with the folks from Simutronics at GDC and they told me that the game was in production. It had been on the back burner for a while, but there are now two distinct teams (game and engine). So, unless i was specifically lied to (and I don't see how that would benefit them), the game is still a go. You might want to think about changing the thread title.

 

This is so funny.

"In Development" is such a broad term. It could mean they have 30 on-site staff and 150 volunteers working on it, and they'll release in July... or it could mean they have 1 on-site staff that shares his time 90% working on the Engine and 10% supervising the 20 volunteers working on it and it will never be released.

 

Duke Nukem is "in development" too.

Notice nobody at Simu Will NEVER, EVER give you a number of people working on it. Or the number of people laid off. They just say their mantra of the vague and ambiguous 'we're working on it'. I'm in IT and the only people I tell 'we're working on it' to is to the people with problems I have no intention of fixing in the immediate future.

Please give me one single instance where a professional developer has told anyone just how much of their staff is working on any given thing?