Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by xeniar

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

 

The fact that nobody could even do the achievement lists 5 months after launch (out of those 5 million players), shows that the challenge in the end game of Wow is fucking hard.

Show me another game where only 1 team of 2, 3 or 5 persons get the Brutal Gladiaor title in a rated ladder based PvP out of 200.000 players (20 servers clustered). Being Brutal Gladiator is a unique title on a server (and a lot of servers don't even have the title).

The same with PVE Raids these days.

Blizzard is the first mmorpg maker where some bosses are SCALED in difficulty, making for a very very small percentage to have the fantastic black or red dragons in its end game. Downing a boss on easy mode is to let everyone enjoy the scenery, but that's NOT the aim of the game anymore.

The aim now is prestige of downing them in a hard setting with all achievements up (like downing Sart has 8 different hard modes).

On my server only ... 0.3% of the Raiders could do all these Raid achievements. That's perhaps 0.01% of total players on a server.

Easy? Only for those not daring the difficult challenges in the Raid or PvP competitions....The others show off with their red and black dragons. Show me your armory and I'll laugh with the "easy" boosts.

No longer the gear is elite, it's the titles and mounts that do the shows these days. And everyone can look at the armory how poorly 99% of the people play. :)))

 

Wait?  So the point of raiding now and what decides its difficulty are optional achievements which give you nothing?   So your saying if a game made an achievement for a raid that was beat 90 bosses in 3 seconds which would be impossible, then it would therefore be the most challenging end game out there?    I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
 

BAsed on numbers Since TBC the raids have gotten easier.  Look at vanilla wow, how many progressed, look at TBC slightly more did,  Now in northrend you have guilds full of retarded monkeys clearing every raid.

It's not that there's no company that's trying compete with WoW, it's more about companies trying to copy Blizzard's mmo business and WoW's design. There are several companies shipping games like that, and it will never work because no one wants to play another WoW. Period.

The only way to grow a subscriber base in another mmo is to be radically different. The newcomer with the radically different game design may not be the one to succeed, but the genre shift will be enough to get people interested, and whoever does it right and markets the game right will see a lot of interested gamers.

The success of WoW is a phenomenon. There's no point in trying to compete using a similar plan. It's like trying to compete with google with a new search engine that does exactly the same thing. There's just no point to it. And I'm seeing  a lot of corporate idiots thinking that it can be done. Warhammer Online is the perfect example. It's a great game, but no one really wants to play another WoW. And that's why it's failing.

Originally posted by arimer

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by xeniar

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

 

The fact that nobody could even do the achievement lists 5 months after launch (out of those 5 million players), shows that the challenge in the end game of Wow is fucking hard.

Show me another game where only 1 team of 2, 3 or 5 persons get the Brutal Gladiaor title in a rated ladder based PvP out of 200.000 players (20 servers clustered). Being Brutal Gladiator is a unique title on a server (and a lot of servers don't even have the title).

The same with PVE Raids these days.

Blizzard is the first mmorpg maker where some bosses are SCALED in difficulty, making for a very very small percentage to have the fantastic black or red dragons in its end game. Downing a boss on easy mode is to let everyone enjoy the scenery, but that's NOT the aim of the game anymore.

The aim now is prestige of downing them in a hard setting with all achievements up (like downing Sart has 8 different hard modes).

On my server only ... 0.3% of the Raiders could do all these Raid achievements. That's perhaps 0.01% of total players on a server.

Easy? Only for those not daring the difficult challenges in the Raid or PvP competitions....The others show off with their red and black dragons. Show me your armory and I'll laugh with the "easy" boosts.

No longer the gear is elite, it's the titles and mounts that do the shows these days. And everyone can look at the armory how poorly 99% of the people play. :)))

 

Wait?  So the point of raiding now and what decides its difficulty are optional achievements which give you nothing?   So your saying if a game made an achievement for a raid that was beat 90 bosses in 3 seconds which would be impossible, then it would therefore be the most challenging end game out there?    I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
 

BAsed on numbers Since TBC the raids have gotten easier.  Look at vanilla wow, how many progressed, look at TBC slightly more did,  Now in northrend you have guilds full of retarded monkeys clearing every raid.

youve said exactly what i wanted to say.

the achievments are meaningless its show to show your epeen to other players. and with a good grind most of em are not a chalange

the brutal gladiator. m8 let me tell you that me as a PVE prot warrior almost had the gladiator title season 1 (i was off by a few), yes things have changed now i know that but its not a chalange.

people with brutal gladiotor stuff have: no job, too much time on their hands, good gear, and are concentrated enough not to fuck up shit. and alot of luck is also a part of PvP (you cannot control absolutely evry aspect of the whole fight)

Vanila WoW was hardcore PVE we had to do bosses night after night after night.

in tbc it went down hill with a few walls here and there. raids now are nothing. the difrent achievment settings are a aim then but as far as i know most of the guilds on my server now have completed alot of it. so your server m8 must be bullshit.

The basic downing of bosses is easy mode. The achievements - getting the REAL status prices - are hard modes.

Or would you say that MMORPG's are not about prestige and honor to show off ?

Getting an achievement or title/show off piece in a guild these days is hard work and every fun when it "bumps" up.

the basic downing on a mob was hard in the old days it would be better to have that return and then make achievements on top of that.

then i would be impressed with peopel getting them.

One thing that WoW showed is the value of having an IP that extends beyond the traditional RPG crowd. It brought in a lot of customers through its RTS games who have showed little interest in other MMOs, before or since.

LotRo seems like a solid game and it has what should be the mother of all IPs but I suspect the reason that it hasn't made more impact is because it has little of the cross-genre appeal you now need to make a dent in WoW's subscription numbers.

WoW created a paradigm shift in what it now takes to be considered a hit MMO in terms of subscriptions. Before WoW, games such as EVE and LotRo would actually have been thought of as rather successful.

I think it remains to be seen how much the MMO market has grown since WoW but it seems likely that as WoW fades from the MMO scene so will a reasonable proportion of its customers. To that extent it is nearly impossible to compete with WoW because the genuine MMORPG market is smaller than WoW's subscription base. 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by xeniar

 

youve said exactly what i wanted to say.

the achievments are meaningless its show to show your epeen to other players. and with a good grind most of em are not a chalange

the brutal gladiator. m8 let me tell you that me as a PVE prot warrior almost had the gladiator title season 1 (i was off by a few), yes things have changed now i know that but its not a chalange.

people with brutal gladiotor stuff have: no job, too much time on their hands, good gear, and are concentrated enough not to fuck up shit. and alot of luck is also a part of PvP (you cannot control absolutely evry aspect of the whole fight)

 

Vanila WoW was hardcore PVE we had to do bosses night after night after night.

in tbc it went down hill with a few walls here and there. raids now are nothing. the difrent achievment settings are a aim then but as far as i know most of the guilds on my server now have completed alot of it. so your server m8 must be bullshit.

 

No you are wrong . DEAD wrong.

The Raid achievements have NOTHING to do with grind.

They only have to do with group skill. Like nobody may die or downing Sart with 0. 1, 2 or 3 dragons up.

So wrong.

So tell me: what do you think is more difficult to program. 8 different ways in dificulty to down a boss (and reward it accordingly AND see to it that the vast majority doesn't succeed or just designing a boss that can be downed ?)

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I laugh at your PvP remark. I am not speaking of the Gladiator title: given to the upper 0.5% of the rated PvP players (which is kinda hard).

I am talking of the Brutal Galdiator title, only given to the TOP player of the 20 server ladder rated system.

That's still a LOT harder isn't it?

And where do YOU stand in the PVE/PVP titles? Not very far I would think... Easy yes, if you want to think the old gameplay that having epics is the goals of the game.

Well mate you ain't playin' the hardcore if you ain't got the titles or dragons to prove it.

raid achievments take group skill. yes  but it used to take even group skills to down a boss  wich now is just a laugh.

u know me as a raider was able to say OMG we killed nefarian as third guild back in the day wich was omfg hardcore because only a few guilds got the chanse to do it that fast. now i have to do the same thing over and over with 1 added dificulty wich makes it alot harder.. jeej.. id rather want a boss wich is already on that highest level and then down it.  id give much more credit for that.

The brutal gladiator tittle. wow look your team has won 1 more game then our team  now you get the title and we dont. boohoo..

Where do i stand in PVE titles. well i dont have a tittle but u know what i can say, i had a full set of Might Wrath and almost a full set of Dreadnaught. i have MainTanked every boss pre-tbc and yes i killed them all pre any nerf patch.

My PvP title ive done my share of BG gridnign with the honour system could ahve went for rank 14 but diddnt because i got bored for 2 weeks after grinding 3 weeks non stop. as a PROTECTION warrior. and as ive stated before as a PRotection favoured tank ive almsot had the Gladiator title season 1

so m8 i do have the Title's, i bear the scars, but hey blizzard diddnt had this nifty system yet wich gave you dragons and whatnot back in the day.

Originally posted by Torath

Reason 3. Media outlets not updating their reviews.

The one thing that I find odd is the lack of additional reviews for MMORPG's out there. Most companies just do their initial review and then ignore the game afterwords. It would be nice if the reviewers would go back to the these games once a year and update their reviews. Some games need time on the market to develop (I hear Vanguard has turned things around and a recent re-review did suggest improvements). This may give some games a needed 2nd chance.

I definitely have to agree with Reason #3, while I'm not sure of the other ones.

I think it'd be great if more popular game critics (Gamespot, IGN, etc) would review MMOs again, similar to how MMORPG.com does, since MMOs change SO much over time. The first review can in no way say how the game is a year later. MMOs are dynamic and change almost on a daily basis. I think it'd be great if game review companies would do an inital review, and then do another review later on (maybe during the summer drought time when nothing of value gets reviewed anyways!?). This would definitely help MMOs, such as Vanguard for example, that may have had a subpar launch but have improved significantly since then.

However, I don't believe this is why WoW has had no real competitors. I think they just made the first casual-friendly MMO that took the world by storm. They have great class balance (Took them a while, but they are getting there), great balance of PvE and PvP, and a very good community. The ones who say "Go back to WoW!" were probably the most immature of WoW players who decided to leave, and personally I'm glad they don't play anymore :).

IMO

No game has managed to compete with WoW because they do not match the key values that sells the game, of course WoW has changed its brand from launch to today several times.

At first:

• The game was extremely playable in most machines with very little lag and bugs and the questing was interesting enough to keep you around when it launched. I do not have patience for lag or bugs, If i can't play it right away and stupid bugs block me, i stop. They UI was not the greatest but easy at first to deal with when you started. The combat style was also smooth and had its benefits when you first start as far as stats and how that balanced with monsters.
  -Key value: Playable
• I came to play WoW from SWG invited by friends thru word of mouth who left SWG to play WoW. At first my reason was friends then I started to really learn about wow learning about it from previous games (RTS) and articles and stories. I am your typical Joe with no idea at first what WoW was.
  -Key value: Social
• The game did NOT require a super computer. I was able to play this game so much better than SWG. Graphics did not concern me too much as the game is stylized in a form that I accepted it. Coming from SWG I use to say, its looks cartoony!!!! but later I begun to really look at how well animated everything was. you could see expressions when you were drinking water, your mount had expressions when you pressed space, npc and monsters were very well animated with out me having to mess with the video settings.
  key value: accesible
• The beautiful music of wow swept me off my feet. I had chills down my spine when I first entered Ironforge and the awesome soundtrack started that combined with the amazing art work of the entrance was captivating or how about when you entered Stormwind and the music of the humans made you proud.  The best part, certain sections of the main cities had their own little soundtrack like the church in Stormwind and the gnome section in IF.
  key value: immersion
  
  As time has progressed since launch:

It not hard to accept that people have left other MMOs and joined WoW's initial base of members. Its not hard to imagine that the majority of players in wow are most likely people that gave up on other failed mmos  because they lacked the values above. As time has progressed of course WoW has made the game easier and easier, why? because the hardcore., the experienced mmo players will leave to try new things (It would be sad to see experienced MMO players stay in wow, because you are not learning anything new, its the same thing every patch anyways ) and wow will be left with newbies to the mmo world and even newbies to PC games as the word of mouth keeps spreading around, and again to make the game inviting to newcomers, it must be playable, accessible, etc but in a new level for the new audience.

Most popular does not equal best. There are a lot of popular things in the world that I dislike. If something has real popularity it usually means that it has to be fairly "middle of the road" to appeal to the most people. It's just a shame that a lot of the developers are trying to copy the model instead of mopping up and catering for the pockets of game players who'd like something a little different.

The OP's Question: Why has no game managed to compete with WoW?

The answer - no game company has tried to spend even close to the same amount of money that WoW spent on its development. I have never played WoW and never intend to as it did not sound like the kind of game I wanted to play, however, Blizzard spent somewhere between $70M and $100M dollars on the game prerelease. Who knows how much they have spent post release.

The biggest titles that have come close to those figures probably spend between $30 and $40M pre-release while trying to achieve what WoW had with thier $80M.

WoW also had a large built-in audience through Blizzard and thier preivous single player/Multi-player games.

Ultimately Blizzard risked a lot of money with the hope of seeing the rewards they have been getting and no other company has had the resources to make that same risk. Untill one comes along that has the resources as well as a New idea WoW will stand.

Spending a lot of money doesn't garuantee a fun game.  Just look at Tabula Rasa.  Pretty massive budget.   Yes, its been said many times, but hey, people keep using the same excuses;)

WOW isn't good BECAUSE its popular.  Its popular because its good.  Understand yet?  Nope.

you need to describe your good point of view like i did above, because your good standard could be  way below somebody else's. So lets hear your opinion.

my reasons are: playability, accesible, immersion and is social.

Honestly looking back at it, before Wow came around the MMO market was kind of small (Well maybey small isnt the word but I can garentee P2P MMO's did not have the beastly amount of players that they have now.)

Blizzard has always sat down and done shit right, I'm not the biggest fan of WoW however Sc, Wc1-3 and D1, D2, they have all been done right never rushed time and money was investied in them and built from scratch they had a large amount of money to do this with from the start, most MMO companies today are small and not able to spend the extra year fine tuining there game or else they will be to far in the red this is why I think alot of games are getting shitty launches as of late is because the company is to scared of going into the red.

Also I think something important is to make you feel like a hero / some on of importance when you sit down and play an RPG you really get to know the villians and be like "This guys totally bad news he needs to go down" for instance I think alot of you played FF7 and little by little through the game you come to understand sephiroth, who he is, why he does what he does ect and when you get to this point you kind of mentally go "Hes evil I need to take him down" this makes you feel like a hero and is the point of an RPG however there is no really good way to introduce characters and flush them out in an MMO most people just do quests for exp and rewards most dont even bother with the storys / most the quests outside of major boss fights hold no true importance. However WoW took there previous game warcraft which already had deffined heros and villians had flushed out the characters and such like a few years back even before Burning crusade people were already hyped to kill Arthas and Illidan the end game pvp had managed to flush out no name grinded bosses into evil characters who made you feel even more important for taking down.

Alot of games before WoW were kidn of intimidating for new players I remember when I first played DAoC I was like 11 years old and I played it at my friends house whos dad was an avid player and honestly the games UI is intimidating to new players no matter what age theres a learning curve, if you have a friend who can step you through it in 30 mins and can awnser questions later it wasnt so bad but alot of people were turned off because they didnt understand the system right off the bat, WoW took that basic layout and simplified it just by reading your skills a player can become familure with the class and most the aspects of the game in the first 10-20 levels without any help at all and it is quite easy to hit max level with solo only play.

Many other games are trying to follow this formula to make a game like this but in the end they are only "WoW clones" with an inovative feature or 2 but nothing really substancial and quite a few of the games released in todays market are so bug ridden that it makes the game almost no fun to play and most people wont suddenly decide to try out that bug ridden game down the road unless they are bored.

Originally posted by Maelkor

The OP's Question: Why has no game managed to compete with WoW?

 

The answer - no game company has tried to spend even close to the same amount of money that WoW spent on its development. I have never played WoW and never intend to as it did not sound like the kind of game I wanted to play, however, Blizzard spent somewhere between $70M and $100M dollars on the game prerelease. Who knows how much they have spent post release.

 

The biggest titles that have come close to those figures probably spend between $30 and $40M pre-release while trying to achieve what WoW had with thier $80M.

 

Do you happen to have a link to anything stating wows pre-release budget?  I only ask, because I have seen many people make claims about huge pre-release budgets, but no one seems to have any reference to where these numbers come from.   Really I am curious where this info comes from.

On the flip side there are several links that put a few mmos in or close to the $100 million dollar club.  Tabula rasa, The sims online, Warhammer, etc.   Soe claimed to be the highest production value mmo on the market during the EQ2/WoW release period.  

There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though.  LOL

There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though.  LOL

Not true, if you're going to spend that kind of money, why would you half ass anything? Blizzard has enough money to do whatever they want. You get what you pay for. Alot of companies can't afford to pay the man hours to fix bugs, update and add content as quickly as Blizzard can. There are alot of great titles out there, alot of people just don't know about it. The bigger your customer base is, the more money you rake in, correct? So you really have to start with money before you make it. WoW is advertised everywhere, that's also because of the extra money they have compared to the smaller companies that can make a game just as good. WoW was not a new name when it was released, don't forget Warcraft and it wasn't even a MMO! When Warcraft was around, there were TONS of MMO's around as well, how do you think "World" of Warcraft was created, from copying other games, so think before you say "WoW Clone".

Sorry, the last part was just me taking out my frustration on people that actually use the word "WoW clone" religiously. Just venting. :)

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Maelkor

The OP's Question: Why has no game managed to compete with WoW?

 

The answer - no game company has tried to spend even close to the same amount of money that WoW spent on its development. I have never played WoW and never intend to as it did not sound like the kind of game I wanted to play, however, Blizzard spent somewhere between $70M and $100M dollars on the game prerelease. Who knows how much they have spent post release.

 

The biggest titles that have come close to those figures probably spend between $30 and $40M pre-release while trying to achieve what WoW had with thier $80M.

 

Do you happen to have a link to anything stating wows pre-release budget?  I only ask, because I have seen many people make claims about huge pre-release budgets, but no one seems to have any reference to where these numbers come from.   Really I am curious where this info comes from.

 

On the flip side there are several links that put a few mmos in or close to the $100 million dollar club.  Tabula rasa, The sims online, Warhammer, etc.   Soe claimed to be the highest production value mmo on the market during the EQ2/WoW release period.  

 

There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though.  LOL

If you search around on the internet you will find things that say about 60 million dollars.

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Originally posted by Corrupted

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There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though. LOL

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Not true, if you're going to spend that kind of money, why would you half ass anything? Blizzard has enough money to do whatever they want. You get what you pay for. Alot of companies can't afford to pay the man hours to fix bugs, update and add content as quickly as Blizzard can. There are alot of great titles out there, alot of people just don't know about it. The bigger your customer base is, the more money you rake in, correct? So you really have to start with money before you make it. WoW is advertised everywhere, that's also because of the extra money they have compared to the smaller companies that can make a game just as good. WoW was not a new name when it was released, don't forget Warcraft and it wasn't even a MMO! When Warcraft was around, there were TONS of MMO's around as well, how do you think "World" of Warcraft was created, from copying other games, so think before you say "WoW Clone".
Sorry, the last part was just me taking out my frustration on people that actually use the word "WoW clone" religiously. Just venting. :)

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I believe I read somewhere that WoW had the biggest market campaign in computer game history, might be wrong but the commersials were everywhere, its a campaign no other mmo provider could compare with, atleast not at the time being before the makings of the newer collitions ala Ubisoft ex.
WoW succeeded because A: it was based on a famaous and respected IP, B: the hype and commersial interest dwarfed every other MMO company at the market and C: the game was quite well worked out, it was functional and easy to learn, not hard to get into.
In time some other game will take over, be it blizzards next mmo or just another big corperation launching a giant sized budget game. I on the other hand would like the game to get big because of the fact of its quality.. that will probably never happen though, the big ones will always win versus the smaller ones

Originally posted by PapaB34R

 

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Originally posted by Corrupted

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There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though. LOL

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Not true, if you're going to spend that kind of money, why would you half ass anything? Blizzard has enough money to do whatever they want. You get what you pay for. Alot of companies can't afford to pay the man hours to fix bugs, update and add content as quickly as Blizzard can. There are alot of great titles out there, alot of people just don't know about it. The bigger your customer base is, the more money you rake in, correct? So you really have to start with money before you make it. WoW is advertised everywhere, that's also because of the extra money they have compared to the smaller companies that can make a game just as good. WoW was not a new name when it was released, don't forget Warcraft and it wasn't even a MMO! When Warcraft was around, there were TONS of MMO's around as well, how do you think "World" of Warcraft was created, from copying other games, so think before you say "WoW Clone".
Sorry, the last part was just me taking out my frustration on people that actually use the word "WoW clone" religiously. Just venting. :)

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I believe I read somewhere that WoW had the biggest market campaign in computer game history, might be wrong but the commersials were everywhere, its a campaign no other mmo provider could compare with, atleast not at the time being before the makings of the newer collitions ala Ubisoft ex.
WoW succeeded because A: it was based on a famaous and respected IP, B: the hype and commersial interest dwarfed every other MMO company at the market and C: the game was quite well worked out, it was functional and easy to learn, not hard to get into...
 

You might want to take note WHEN that advertising started.  You do know they hit at least 1 million, basically doubling any MMO previous(OUTSIDE ASIA) before any commercials even hit air.   Shatner and Mr T  weren't  pimping WOW in the first year you know.  EQ2 had as much or more advertising than WOW did at least in the begining when SOE thought they had a chance;)  People forget WOW was pulled off the shelves for some time because TOO many people were trying to log in.  That was also before the TV commercials started by the way. 

NAME and an IP doesn't sell a MMO.  Ask LOTR, SWG, Matrix, EQ2 and The Sims.  Id say StarWars and The Matrix and even the Sims are FAR, FAR larger IPs in the casual gamer base.  Before WOW, Warcraft was just an RTS not EVERYONE played.  RTS isn't a huge genre anyway compared to others.  Its certainly not as big as traditional RPGs and no where near FPSs or action games.  People don't buy games because they're made by a company.  Square has made plenty of games no one bought and they're pretty top notch as a known developer.  People only play games they enjoy.  The name on the box means didly in the big picture.

HYPE doesn't sell a MMO either.  Ask WAR and Conan or even Darkfall, hehe.

Originally posted by Corrupted

There are a lot of mmos that truckloads of money couldn't save though.  LOL

 

Not true, if you're going to spend that kind of money, why would you half ass anything? Blizzard has enough money to do whatever they want. You get what you pay for. Alot of companies can't afford to pay the man hours to fix bugs, update and add content as quickly as Blizzard can. There are alot of great titles out there, alot of people just don't know about it. The bigger your customer base is, the more money you rake in, correct? So you really have to start with money before you make it. WoW is advertised everywhere, that's also because of the extra money they have compared to the smaller companies that can make a game just as good. WoW was not a new name when it was released, don't forget Warcraft and it wasn't even a MMO! When Warcraft was around, there were TONS of MMO's around as well, how do you think "World" of Warcraft was created, from copying other games, so think before you say "WoW Clone".

Sorry, the last part was just me taking out my frustration on people that actually use the word "WoW clone" religiously. Just venting. :)

So yeah, relax.  I was making a tongue in cheek joke.  Sorry if that was misleading in anyway, but I wasn't saying everything is a wow clone.  

Warcraft3 is reason why WoW was such a success, majority of Wc3 players had never touched a MMO and would buy a bucket full of poop if it was titled "Warcraft poop"