All the stars were aligned when WoW was released; it came out at the right time, the growth of using the Internet for something else other than porn and spam.

Originally posted by natuxatu

Honestly the main reason i stuck with WoW for a long time, was because it ran the smoothest. I hate how all mmos nowadays are trying to be uber realistic  in their design. It just doesn't look good. 

Anybody can make pretty computer animations.  And by that I don't just mean 'any major gaming company.'  I mean any guy sitting in his parent's basement. 

Making a game with photo-realistic graphics that plays like crap is a cop-out; all you're doing is taking artist's conceptions, giving them to the programmers and telling them "make this move."  And that is basically the opposite of how a computer game should be designed.  That's not a bug; it's not a glitch; it's just plain BAD DESIGN PRACTICE right from day one.

Blizzard does it the right way:  they spend millions perfecting the game engine (including the combat system and animation) first, then they give it to the white-loafers to build content with draconian polygon limitations and the simple instruction: "Make this pretty."

Blizzard certainly didn't have more money than SOE when they started WoW.  They just put their priorities in order.  Even the early Alpha testers thought Wow's combat and basic gameply was fun from the beginning.  EQ2, Vanguard, etc., etc....  go through the whole process thinking they can patch fun on at the end.  And that almost never works.  Once Blizzard had fully playtested their basic engine, they knew they were betting on a sure thing, so every penny they spent on content was a wise investment.  But any money spent trying to polish a turd is wasted.

I disagree.. maybe you SHOULD be right... but that's not how it is. I guarentee that if mmos were done in a more artistic way and had their own style... or for example the engine was built from the ground up instead of using unreal 3 engine or whatever, that the mmo would do a lot a better. And not any MMO can make pretty graphics... they should but many are making "realistic" graphics which looks like crap after awhile.

I'm not saying the graphics have to be great... I'm saying they need to have a unique style that a lot of people will want to continue to look at for months and months. I think WoW achieved that... other games, not so much. example: Animal Crossing.. not the greatest graphics, but graphics that you can look at for months...

And obviously there are other factors. Everything everyone mentions is important... but to me I think this is probably a big one that a lot of people might not realise or think about. Of course it has to be fun and have solid gameplay... but a lot games have that and are bogged down by other issues. A big reason that its fun is because of the "feel."

Graphics ARE more important in an MMO than in just your regular console or pc game because those are the graphics you have to stare at for months and years.  Another example... Guild Wars. It was pretty successfull... I don't think for a second it would do as well if it kept the graphics it had during it's early beta.. with the whole cartoon, clunky graphic look.

Anyway that's my opinion at least.

 You could say that no other MMO can compete because all other dev teams think like many posters here, "there is only one big thing than made WoW what it is today"

Well if it wasnt the name "Blizzard" and they hadnt a so big fan base with their legendary Warcraft,Starcraft and Diablo Series. WoW wouldnt be proabaly so succesful and in 2004 Dsl started to kick in for the majorty.

So much ignorance and bitterness. WoW is the behemoth it is not because players are stupid, not because it was all "luck". WoW listened to what players were saying when EQ was king. Players were saying the wanted less dependency on group. WoW made it happen. WoW has a fun lore based world. WoW has quite a few quest that are enjoyable. WoW listened to all the disgruntled MMO players and made a world for them.

Obviously, there are a few people who don't like WoW. I'm included in that bunch, but I'm not bitter enough to not understand that WoW is awesome to most people. The reason no game is able to compete with WoW is because WoW is perfect for what it does. The games that have come out, and been total WoW clones are clueless. Why would someone quit WoW to go play another WoW? Why would I, someone that doesn't enjoy WoW, go play one of these clones(yea Im talking to you LOTRO and WAR)?

Instead of listening to the disgruntled MMOs players, something that WOW did, these other gaming companies are listening to raving fans of WoW. Why would someone who loves WoW quit? Not going to happen. That is why no other game is able to compete with WoW.

Okay so if WoW "listened to the players and gave them what they want" then the real question is... what is it that MMO players want now/next? Does anyone really know? Perhaps there isn't anything more that people can really think of and thus WoW will continue to do well..

Originally posted by natuxatu

Okay so if WoW "listened to the players and gave them what they want" then the real question is... what is it that MMO players want now/next? Does anyone really know? Perhaps there isn't anything more that people can really think of and thus WoW will continue to do well..

WoW's themepark nature is a snug fit for the casual gamers and a perfect introduction to the genre; but there's a growing population of non-casuals who are getting frustrated at the slowing pace of the game. I play ~10-15 hours a week (at most) and I'm able to experience the vast majority of the games content.

That's great for me .. but I wonder what the 40-50 hour a week people do with their online time.

What's needed now is a game that ties the various playstyles together and provides an environment where the casuals, non-casuals, crafters, PVE and PVP players can all have fun and feel that they're contributing to a dynamic game world in a revolutionary manner.

I'd like to see a game that toyed with the prospect of not having personal gain; imagine that every PVE/PVP activity gave your faction "points" that, when they reach a certain level, unlock the next tier of gear that can be purchased/crafted by every player in the faction. Sort of like your faction levelling up instead of/as well as you.

WAR sort of has something similar in that their capital cities and guilds could level up and provide bonuses to their members.

Blizzard was created by the devil himself. All their top level executives are high level mages and sorcs, you will never beat wow, never....

Originally posted by crazyexodus

Blizzard was created by the devil himself. All their top level executives are high level mages and sorcs, you will never beat wow, never....

WoW is coming down.. in a far far away future we won't see :)

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

What's needed now is a game that ties the various playstyles together and provides an environment where the casuals, non-casuals, crafters, PVE and PVP players can all have fun and feel that they're contributing to a dynamic game world in a revolutionary manner.

Why is that needed? I don't see why not some games cater to casuals and some to non-casuals. There is no reason why all of these have to supported in THE SAME GAME.

Why has no store managed to compete with Walmart as of yet?

WoW really is fluke of the market, in which all the right things happened at exactly the right time. Other game companies had far less problems than WoW did at Launch, release more frequent content updates, and yet still somehow can't "compete" with WoW. Lotro and WAR are two games that come to my mind off the top of my head.

These two, comparing to WoW's launch, current updates, and available content... should be on par with WoW in terms of subs... but for some reason are not.  Regardless of personal opinions, if you look at the way the games are handled, the updates, and the available content... there really isn't any reason games like LotRO and WAR are not at the same spot.

It's like this: At WoW's launch, everything was positioned just right, creating a springboard that helped WoW reach a high point. It has ridden up to the top since then. Player demand, content available, queues (yes queues can help a game), and the fact that EQ II just released set this springboard that WoW nailed perfectly.

THEN...

That springboard was removed, so all upcoming games/companies don't get that same advantage. It's life... and just how things go.

Until everything gets setup just right again... the moon, planets, what players ate on release day... No game will ever reach what WoW has. WoW could completely mess things up, but so far they have been doing just fine.

I refer to WoW as the Walmart of MMO's... I feel it fits.

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

These two, comparing to WoW's launch, current updates, and available content... should be on par with WoW in terms of subs... but for some reason are not.  Regardless of personal opinions, if you look at the way the games are handled, the updates, and the available content... there really isn't any reason games like LotRO and WAR are not at the same spot.

Comparing games at release is irrelevant.  The only thing that matters is how they stack up against each other today.

Lotro is a fine game that did just about everything right.  What it did not do was offer a reason for people to chose it over wow (or another game).  The gameplay experience is so similar to wow that it really doesn't offer a compelling reason to make the switch unless someone is looking to experience a scaled down wow experience in another setting.  By that I mean if people are happy with wow, lotro doesn't offer anything to entice them to switch.  If someone is bored with wow, odds are they will get bored of lotro fairly fast. 

Warhammer released before it was polished.  It has a plethora of various problems that should not be in a game at release, especially one that is shooting to put numbers into the millions of subscribers.  Regardless of how well the release of warhammer appears, it just missed the pulse of the gaming market to be really huge.  I admit I initially thought this would be the game to show that a sizable portion of players will move to something new, but it just doesn't really do it.  Even though I still play warhammer (on and off) I don't think it will ever be anything more than it is today.  There are a handful of other mmos that are better at most of warhammers features except one and even that one feature isn't running as well as is could be.  It really is a one trick pony.

I agree with you that the market is in the same type of situation for another game to impress the masses, but I don't think anyone has stepped up to try to capture that by being true to their own designs.  There is far to much repeating mistakes of the past followed up by imitating the leader instead of evolving and innovating. 

People don't play LOTR in such high numbers because it doesn't offer as much as WOW does overall.  It has a few cool new things, but seriously not enough for someone to start all over again in what's basically an inferior product.  Why be limiited to rather boring races?  Why cut out PvP almost completely?  The PvE is certainly no better.   The world is no more interesting.  The art isn't any better.  In most cases worse in my view.  The classes aren't unique.  WOW's classes are actually far more refined and fun to play.  LOTR offer a nice music system and the chance to be in the LOTR universe.  Thats really it.  LOTR isn't bad at all.  Its just not any better and thats not enough.

WAR has its fair share of problems that surface only if you really understand the genre.  WAR's gameplay is just broken right now.  Its also more simplified than WOWs is.  Not more intutive mind you.  Its just simpler.  The death penalty isn't even a penalty.  Its a reward in most cases;)  The spell lag alone is enough to make any serious player quit out of sheer frustration.  Its game breaking for anyone that actually cares.  Maybe if you're REALLY casual and don't care if your spell fires off at 3 sec when the tool tip says 1.5, WAR's problems won't bother you.  I died more times due to the UI and lag in WAR in the first month, than I did in WOW for over a year.  Actually I NEVER died in WOW due to the UI or spells not firing when they're supposed to.   The PvE hardly holds a candle to WOW.  The world design is also  not any better than WOW's.  DIFFFERENT, yes, but not better. The graphics are better technically and darker, but overall, they're not nicer to look at.  The animation swings from very good e to completely HORRID.  Add in massive battles where you're basically looking at what resembles poorly animated 2D sprites most of the time, and you've got a little problem for anyone who's been around a while.  The class design doesn't reward going above and beyond because the Rock paper scissors approach is very limited.  WOW's R/P/S offers much more leeway, with healers beating casters, beating tanks, ect.  You won't be killing ANYONE with a healer in WAR, which goes directly AGAINST everything Mythic was saying since day 1.  Tanks also hardly have tools to really KILL anyone.  You just keep beating on them in a crowd and hope you land the killing blow.  The balance is just waaaaay out of whack.  The battlegrounds are more numerous, but they're not as polished as WOW's.  Considering you're mostly playing the same few over and over, they're actually not really all that numerous.  Keep seiges are certainly no better than Wintergrasp.  WOW's massive PvP actually outdoes WAR's and WAR is supposed to be all about massive battles.  WAR's ideas are nice, but the execution has been bad and people saw it right away.  I never saw the inside of the oppositions city because the game would crash every damn time.  Thats some broken end game folks.   WOW's acheivement system is just as nice as the TOME's, not that thats any reason to play WAR. 

WOW's problems at launch were too many people wanting to play at once.  Hardly a bad problem when it comes down to it.  The mail lag and item lag was isolated to certain servers.  It was NOT game-wide or noticable enough to be more than a minor nuisance.  The game itself was solid esspecially for 2004.  Nothing played like it at that time.   Even now, a 4 yr old game plays better than new ones.  Even graphically it still holds up nicely.

Originally posted by Josher

People don't play LOTR in such high numbers because it doesn't offer as much as WOW does overall.  It has a few cool new things, but seriously not enough for someone to start all over again in what's basically an inferior product.  Why be limiited to rather boring races?  Why cut out PvP almost completely?  The PvE is certainly no better.   The world is no more interesting.  The art isn't any better.  In most cases worse in my view.  The classes aren't unique.  WOW's classes are actually far more refined and fun to play.

I disagree almost entirely.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Josher

People don't play LOTR in such high numbers because it doesn't offer as much as WOW does overall.  It has a few cool new things, but seriously not enough for someone to start all over again in what's basically an inferior product.  Why be limiited to rather boring races?  Why cut out PvP almost completely?  The PvE is certainly no better.   The world is no more interesting.  The art isn't any better.  In most cases worse in my view.  The classes aren't unique.  WOW's classes are actually far more refined and fun to play.

 

I disagree almost entirely.

Thats understandable, but most don't.   If they agreed, well....everyone would switch over th LOTR, right?  Its not like people can't play the trial or find it at the store.  You don't need that great a computer to run it either.

Blizzard is good at software AND at business.

..and no I don't play WoW.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Josher

People don't play LOTR in such high numbers because it doesn't offer as much as WOW does overall.  It has a few cool new things, but seriously not enough for someone to start all over again in what's basically an inferior product.  Why be limiited to rather boring races?  Why cut out PvP almost completely?  The PvE is certainly no better.   The world is no more interesting.  The art isn't any better.  In most cases worse in my view.  The classes aren't unique.  WOW's classes are actually far more refined and fun to play.

 

I disagree almost entirely.

 

Thats understandable, but most don't.   If they agreed, well....everyone would switch over th LOTR, right?  Its not like people can't play the trial or find it at the store.  You don't need that great a computer to run it either.

Haha look at this guy, using the population of WoW to back up his opinion. Judging by the numbers, most haven't even played LOTRO, and even if they did they're too attached to their characters (especially if WoW is their first MMO). WoWs PvP is horrid and breaks in every patch. The art is a 3d version of Maple Story(I think this is why you like the art). LOTROS classes aren't UNIQUE? thats a serious complaint? LOL - WoW uses the STANDARD BARBONES Mage,Priest,Warrior,Rogue, and yet to you that is unique? You don't even know the words you're throwing out at random but I'm going to reply as if you weren't. WoWs classes are more refined? How many years has WoW been patched? You're blatantly saying game A is better than game B because game A has been out longer, grats.

In the end it sounds like WoW is your first MMO and that you really didn't play LOTRO at all. You see the oddest faults in all these MMOs but now WoW! If that doesn't smell of fanboy I don't know what does

*edit* "People don't play LOTR in such high numbers because it doesn't offer as much as WOW does overall."
haha you don't even make sense it's annoying, how could LOTRO at launch offer the same amount (this amount of what no one knows but you) as WoW, years after release. It's not possible but in the end it does not make a difference because it is not what drove that many people to WoW.. someone had the decency of explaining the Walmart effect to you but it sounds like you didn't read a thing.

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

Originally posted by xeniar

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

EQ2 is serious business.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by xeniar

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

 

The fact that nobody could even do the achievement lists 5 months after launch (out of those 5 million players), shows that the challenge in the end game of Wow is fucking hard.

Show me another game where only 1 team of 2, 3 or 5 persons get the Brutal Gladiaor title in a rated ladder based PvP out of 200.000 players (20 servers clustered). Being Brutal Gladiator is a unique title on a server (and a lot of servers don't even have the title).

The same with PVE Raids these days.

Blizzard is the first mmorpg maker where some bosses are SCALED in difficulty, making for a very very small percentage to have the fantastic black or red dragons in its end game. Downing a boss on easy mode is to let everyone enjoy the scenery, but that's NOT the aim of the game anymore.

The aim now is prestige of downing them in a hard setting with all achievements up (like downing Sart has 8 different hard modes).

On my server only ... 0.3% of the Raiders could do all these Raid achievements. That's perhaps 0.01% of total players on a server.

Easy? Only for those not daring the difficult challenges in the Raid or PvP competitions....The others show off with their red and black dragons. Show me your armory and I'll laugh with the "easy" boosts.

No longer the gear is elite, it's the titles and mounts that do the shows these days. And everyone can look at the armory how poorly 99% of the people play. :)))

 

Wait?  So the point of raiding now and what decides its difficulty are optional achievements which give you nothing?   So your saying if a game made an achievement for a raid that was beat 90 bosses in 3 seconds which would be impossible, then it would therefore be the most challenging end game out there?    I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
 

BAsed on numbers Since TBC the raids have gotten easier.  Look at vanilla wow, how many progressed, look at TBC slightly more did,  Now in northrend you have guilds full of retarded monkeys clearing every raid.

It's not that there's no company that's trying compete with WoW, it's more about companies trying to copy Blizzard's mmo business and WoW's design. There are several companies shipping games like that, and it will never work because no one wants to play another WoW. Period.

The only way to grow a subscriber base in another mmo is to be radically different. The newcomer with the radically different game design may not be the one to succeed, but the genre shift will be enough to get people interested, and whoever does it right and markets the game right will see a lot of interested gamers.

The success of WoW is a phenomenon. There's no point in trying to compete using a similar plan. It's like trying to compete with google with a new search engine that does exactly the same thing. There's just no point to it. And I'm seeing  a lot of corporate idiots thinking that it can be done. Warhammer Online is the perfect example. It's a great game, but no one really wants to play another WoW. And that's why it's failing.

Originally posted by arimer

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by xeniar

no game competes with WoW because the WoW audience are easymode basterds.

EQ2 is too hard for them to be playign they would get confused trying to find the mobs they need to kill, and they would whine because the have a experience penalty in death.

not gonna make other comparisons you guys catch my drift anyway.

Yes im a ex-WoW player and ive quit because blizzard has made content too easy nowadays and evrything is unbalanced (no plans of returning...)

Dura Dwarf warrior Outland EU

 

The fact that nobody could even do the achievement lists 5 months after launch (out of those 5 million players), shows that the challenge in the end game of Wow is fucking hard.

Show me another game where only 1 team of 2, 3 or 5 persons get the Brutal Gladiaor title in a rated ladder based PvP out of 200.000 players (20 servers clustered). Being Brutal Gladiator is a unique title on a server (and a lot of servers don't even have the title).

The same with PVE Raids these days.

Blizzard is the first mmorpg maker where some bosses are SCALED in difficulty, making for a very very small percentage to have the fantastic black or red dragons in its end game. Downing a boss on easy mode is to let everyone enjoy the scenery, but that's NOT the aim of the game anymore.

The aim now is prestige of downing them in a hard setting with all achievements up (like downing Sart has 8 different hard modes).

On my server only ... 0.3% of the Raiders could do all these Raid achievements. That's perhaps 0.01% of total players on a server.

Easy? Only for those not daring the difficult challenges in the Raid or PvP competitions....The others show off with their red and black dragons. Show me your armory and I'll laugh with the "easy" boosts.

No longer the gear is elite, it's the titles and mounts that do the shows these days. And everyone can look at the armory how poorly 99% of the people play. :)))

 

Wait?  So the point of raiding now and what decides its difficulty are optional achievements which give you nothing?   So your saying if a game made an achievement for a raid that was beat 90 bosses in 3 seconds which would be impossible, then it would therefore be the most challenging end game out there?    I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
 

BAsed on numbers Since TBC the raids have gotten easier.  Look at vanilla wow, how many progressed, look at TBC slightly more did,  Now in northrend you have guilds full of retarded monkeys clearing every raid.

youve said exactly what i wanted to say.

the achievments are meaningless its show to show your epeen to other players. and with a good grind most of em are not a chalange

the brutal gladiator. m8 let me tell you that me as a PVE prot warrior almost had the gladiator title season 1 (i was off by a few), yes things have changed now i know that but its not a chalange.

people with brutal gladiotor stuff have: no job, too much time on their hands, good gear, and are concentrated enough not to fuck up shit. and alot of luck is also a part of PvP (you cannot control absolutely evry aspect of the whole fight)

Vanila WoW was hardcore PVE we had to do bosses night after night after night.

in tbc it went down hill with a few walls here and there. raids now are nothing. the difrent achievment settings are a aim then but as far as i know most of the guilds on my server now have completed alot of it. so your server m8 must be bullshit.

The basic downing of bosses is easy mode. The achievements - getting the REAL status prices - are hard modes.

Or would you say that MMORPG's are not about prestige and honor to show off ?

Getting an achievement or title/show off piece in a guild these days is hard work and every fun when it "bumps" up.

the basic downing on a mob was hard in the old days it would be better to have that return and then make achievements on top of that.

then i would be impressed with peopel getting them.

One thing that WoW showed is the value of having an IP that extends beyond the traditional RPG crowd. It brought in a lot of customers through its RTS games who have showed little interest in other MMOs, before or since.

LotRo seems like a solid game and it has what should be the mother of all IPs but I suspect the reason that it hasn't made more impact is because it has little of the cross-genre appeal you now need to make a dent in WoW's subscription numbers.

WoW created a paradigm shift in what it now takes to be considered a hit MMO in terms of subscriptions. Before WoW, games such as EVE and LotRo would actually have been thought of as rather successful.

I think it remains to be seen how much the MMO market has grown since WoW but it seems likely that as WoW fades from the MMO scene so will a reasonable proportion of its customers. To that extent it is nearly impossible to compete with WoW because the genuine MMORPG market is smaller than WoW's subscription base.