| 84 posts found | |
|---|---|
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I was referring to the AIG situation. I think it is disgusting that they decided to incentivise these people but they did. It was negotiated between the 2 parties and agreed upon. Also add to it that congress expressly voted on keeping these contracts with the recent stimulus package signed into law. If the government can now come in and void legally negotiated contracts no matter how morally disgusting they may be then contract law and really the constitution no longer exists. Lets keep in perspective that if you had 100 dollars the AIG bonuses represent less than 10 cents of it. The bigger concerns should be the giving away of public funds for the bailouts to begin with as well as the Federal Reserve deciding yesterday to print 1 trillion dollars. Inflation is coming. Just look at what the price of gold has done in the last 24 hours and really the last 10 months. But I digress...EULAs are really worthless legally.
Well it was a fun digression, and I do get where you're coming from ^_^. We certainly agree on the EULA issue too lol. Hey, while we're on the topic of EULA's I'd like to hear you opinion on something. So, this guys successfully challenged a mobile phone company's EULA. A judge found that one paragraph was unconscionable. He therefore deemed the entire contract void. The guy then got some form of compensation. Sorry more details are sketchy, this was about a year ago. You know SOE's EULA where it says they can change the EULA at any time without notifying the consumer? Since you pay for 30 days, and they can change the contract after less than one if they want, what do you think the chances are that this would be unconscionable? If it is deemed so, what kind of possibilities do you think that might open up?
I think a lot will depend on what state it is in assuming we are talking the US. Many states have strict consumer laws and allow for puntive damages. If we are talking federal then it will depend upon which state to determine which laws will apply due to the way federal appeals work. If someone files a class action it could be interesting. You do not need punitive damages to collect attorney fees. -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
|
Originally posted by ummax This is the very concept the OP postulated, the fact that as costumers we really dont have laws that can protect us from the managment of their service besides the cancel button. Wich infact is a very jaded feature and delicate matter: No Refund Forfeit of playtime and ingame acomplishment Looking for a way to vent this fustration, only takes: a freandly face, be it the company or the ones still playing. Now, to tell you the truth i dont think the company will listen, becuse your no longer paying them, and this is the key of the issue. Originally posted by ArcAngel3
With contract law are you referring to Obama's taxation of the executive bonuses at AIG? I have a lot of thoughts on that, personally. If you mean something else, feel free to ignore what follows lol :). The understanding of the government funds was that they would be used to stabilize the financial institution. I believe the argument is that paying the executives bonuses was not the use of the funds that was understood. The counter-argument was that the bonuses were paid to retain highly skilled executives, and that this would thereby stabilize the company and its role in supporting the global economy. ------------------------------------- I see a very obscure situation in this AIG scandal, not only the company but (i think) the federal reserve knew about the contract, before the baillout went thru. |
|
Originally posted by Valeran
I think a lot will depend on what state it is in assuming we are talking the US. Many states have strict consumer laws and allow for puntive damages. If we are talking federal then it will depend upon which state to determine which laws will apply due to the way federal appeals work. If someone files a class action it could be interesting. You do not need punitive damages to collect attorney fees. This is actually one of the issues that have always puzzled me when it came to EULAs. If the company changes the EULA and you refuse to accept the new version, the company by all rights should offer to refund you any money remaining in your subscription. They have essentially exercised their option to cancel the contract and now want to negotiate a new one. That is one issue that is bound to bite them in the legal ass soon enough. |
|
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I'm not sure I would call the connection to MMORPGs that some players have Stockholm Syndrome. There are a few things that keep a player who is no longer enjoying an MMORPG in the game. One is the addictive personal quest of making yourself one of the best. People want all of the time and effort they have put into a game to amount to something, and quitting the game might be thought of as giving up. Also, a player develops a social network within the game they are playing. I believe this social network is the strongest force for retaining a player. H A D O K E N !
|
|
|
ArcAngel3
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by Burntvet
That's a good point regarding the EULA not being available until after purchase. Something else that needs to be addressed by the FTC I think. Some EULA's even tell you to return the open software to the place of purchase, knowing full-well that in most jurisdictions this is disallowed. With contract law are you referring to Obama's taxation of the executive bonuses at AIG? I have a lot of thoughts on that, personally. If you mean something else, feel free to ignore what follows lol :). The understanding of the government funds was that they would be used to stabilize the financial institution. I believe the argument is that paying the executives bonuses was not the use of the funds that was understood. The counter-argument was that the bonuses were paid to retain highly skilled executives, and that this would thereby stabilize the company and its role in supporting the global economy. There are really two problems with this counter-argument. First of all, it appears that it was the wreckless decision-making of these executives that plunged the civilized world into recession. That's how Obama and others have characterized the situation it seems. So, paying these people bonuses to stay in their positions does not seem clearly linked to enhancing stability. Second, allegedly after receiving the retention bonuses, some of these people left--took the money and ran as it were. This certainly is not overtly linked to the intended use of the funds, and allegations of fraud have been discussed as a result. Having said that, however, it's very likely that the contracts were worded in such a way that these actions, disgusting as they are, could be defended. Think about EULAs and you'll get my meaning. There are actually a lot of parallels between the business practices of some of the banks, and some MMO service providers if you ask me. Money taken under the auspices of adding content to someone's game; meanwhile it is being funneled into the development of another product entirely, but I digress. Now, the Federal gov't could challenge the contracts in court. However, this would likely be a very costly and time-consuming endeavor. (Think why don't people sue MMO service providers over unconcionable EULAs--often--and you may see another parallel). The critical issue here is timing. If the global econony isn't stabilized as of yesterday, the entire free world system is still teetering on the brink of total collapse. It's really that serious. In other words, Obama doesn't have time to play word games with greedy, former executives of financial institutions, who put the stimulus money in their own pockets. The stimulus money needs to be used for its intended purpose right now. There is no other acceptable option. Hence the new taxation of those who received bonuses contrary to the intended terms of the bail-out package. There's no room to allow "legaleze" to obfuscate the matter in this instance. Hope that these funds will be recovered and put to their intended use is, I believe, one factor among many other stimulus initiatives that contributed to the small economics gains experienced world-wide today. I believe that Obama and his partners are on the right track. It's nice to see. This guy actually understands the complex systems and issues that need to be corrected, and how to go about it, in order to help the American economy rebound. Our economic trends here are also intricately connected to those in the U.S., so this has a positive impact for Canadians as well.
The reason most MMO EULAs have not been challenged in court, is that most people are not going to sue of $50/$15/mo. But for other kinds of software people have been suing, and the EULAs have been found wanting. The software in the following story was worth significantly more money, which is why it likely went to court.... (the software company in question got its collective azz kicked, btw)
This was from the Seattle Post Intelligencer or whatever it is called, from last year I think: A Seattle man is free to sell second-hand software on eBay, a US court has said. It found that the maker of the software, Autodesk, could not stop the resale by claiming that its software is licensed rather than sold. Software companies have long claimed that software is not sold to users but licensed, and many software licences forbid the resale of the software. A Seattle District Court has found, though, that the packages of software in question were sold, not licensed, and that the licence is not binding on subsequent buyers. Timothy Vernor bought several copies of Autodesk's AutoCAD design software in 2005 and 2007 from businesses that had originally bought the software from Autodesk. He then put the software up for sale on eBay. Each package contained discs, a copy of a licence agreement and other documentation. Each time, Autodesk issued a Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) take-down notice asking eBay to suspend the auction, which it did. Each time that happened Vernor wrote to Autodesk asserting his rights and saying that the software was legitimate and not a pirated copy, but received no reply. Ebay reinstated the auctions. At one point eBay suspended his seller's account for a month for repeat infringements of its policies when Autodesk had complained a number of times. Vernor applied to the Court for a declaration that he had the right to sell the software because he believed that this process would be repeated every time he tried to buy and sell software. The court said that Autodesk's initial transfer of the software to the businesses was a sale, not a licensing arrangement. Those businesses, therefore, had the right to re-sell the software with or without the permission of Autodesk. The 'first sale doctrine' is an important part of US copyright legislation. Richard Jones, the judge in the case, said that if invoked, the doctrine would protect Vernor. "If there were no License, there is no dispute that Mr. Vernor's resale of the AutoCAD packages would be legal," he said in his ruling. "The first sale doctrine permits a person who owns a lawfully-made copy of a copyrighted work to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy." The Court relied on a 1977 decision involving prints of films, in which the US government took action against Woodrow Wise, who operated a film sales operation in Los Angeles. That case was the first to look at what is a licensing arrangement and what is a sale, Jones said. It found that in cases where a company expected the material to be returned – as it would if loaning a print to a cinema for display – that was a license arrangement. Where it never expected the material to be returned – such as when a studio allowed actress Vanessa Redgrave to have a print in return for money – that was a sale. Jones said that subsequent decisions had backed Autodesk's contention that software distribution could be a sale, he had to stay consistent with the earliest relevant ruling, which was that of the case of Wise. "Although technology has changed, the question at the core of this case is not technological," said Jones. "Mr. Vernor does not seek to take advantage of new technology to ease copying, he seeks to sell a package of physical objects which contain copies of copyrighted material. The essential features of such sales vary little whether selling movie prints via mail (as in Wise) or software packages via eBay." The ruling also dealt with the extent of the power of the original software licence. Vernor asked the Court to declare that the original licence, which forbade the re-selling of the software, did not control his behaviour. The Court said that the argument Autodesk had earlier made – that Vernor should not be allowed to own the software because the licence was non-transferable – must govern to whom it can apply. "Not only has Autodesk failed to surmount the thorny issues of privity and mutual assent inherent in its contention that its License binds Mr. Vernor and his customers, it has ignored the terms of the License itself," said the ruling. "The Autodesk License is expressly 'nontransferable.' License: Grant of License. Autodesk does not explain how a nontransferable license can bind subsequent transferees." The software industry relies on categorising what consumers often think of as software sales as software licensing agreements. If followed by other courts, the Autodesk ruling could affect the ability of software publishers to restrict the transfer of their technology in that way. The court denied Autodesk's motion for dismissal or summary judgment. The case continues.
That's a very cool case. Thanks for the info. I like this judge :) I also like the judge that found one EULA entirely void because of one unconscionable clause, and the judge that punished another company with a fine for their EULA and forced them to change it. The way it was worded contradicted consumer rights laws in a particular jurisdiction. I think people are starting to catch on that a lot of these service company's EULA's are full of it. Knowledge is power :). Also, courts are starting to catch on and put the hurt on these companies. I think this is only going to get better as awareness grows, and as more people stand up for themselves, which is the opposite of the problem highlighted in the thread. It shouldn't be too long before people challenge the notion that they do not own virtual property that they purchased from an online store. I'm also looking forward to the FTC's work on things like MMO EULA's. It seems that there is an overall general distaste for corporate policies that try to bend or circumvent regulations to take advantage of people. It was only a matter of time. Imagine if service providers feel they actually have to go back to providing quality goods and services for our hard-earned money... |
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by Velexia
I'm not sure I would call the connection to MMORPGs that some players have Stockholm Syndrome. There are a few things that keep a player who is no longer enjoying an MMORPG in the game. One is the addictive personal quest of making yourself one of the best. People want all of the time and effort they have put into a game to amount to something, and quitting the game might be thought of as giving up. Also, a player develops a social network within the game they are playing. I believe this social network is the strongest force for retaining a player. I think you're right about the social network. The hardest thing for me to do when leaving an MMO has been to say goodbye to my friends. What helped me do this was to realize that the service provider was charging me money to keep in touch with people I had met online, in a game that they had ruined. I refuse to pay money to stay in a broken game just to chat with friends. We started up our own private forum to stay in touch, without the monthly fee, and without the frustration of beta testing long after the game's release. |
|
It is extremely weird how people will stick up for developers/publishers through thick and thin. I suspect that the psychology behind the Stockholm Syndrome is something entirely different though, an emotional bond forged in close proximity by unimaginable stress or cruelty. Unsatisfactory development of an MMO hardly compares...though SWG's comes pretty close! I dont know but maybe being a fan of a sports team is a closer analogy. For instance, though I live in the UK, I'm a huge fan of the Washington Redskins. I hate the way the team has been run for the last 10 years and have no affinity for the current owner. But nothing will ever stop me supporting my beloved Redskins and I get annoyed if anyone criticizes them. And I still live in hope that they will do better next year |
|
Originally posted by Torik This is actually one of the issues that have always puzzled me when it came to EULAs. If the company changes the EULA and you refuse to accept the new version, the company by all rights should offer to refund you any money remaining in your subscription. They have essentially exercised their option to cancel the contract and now want to negotiate a new one. That is one issue that is bound to bite them in the legal ass soon enough.
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards? took me awhile to upload this cause I wanted sharper images then the generic cut and paste had on it but anyhow for those that say you are agreeing to the eula after you buy this is not so and for as long as I have played these games I have been able to find a copy online somewhere before buying. The only issue of legality is the fact that a company reserves right to change its game as much as it wants after you buy it. Anyhow this is from inside a free station pass easy enough to get and i have had one since well forever before I even really knew what station pass was I had this free thingy and I was getting mails from it http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/ummax/EverQuestIISelectAdd-Ons.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/ummax/links.jpg the last one (the squashed one) is the sony elua you find when you open up a game its identical. All this is here for anyone to find free of charge and has been for a very long time. Again I dont blame players for what any company does to a game. I do however "blame" consumers for not properly educating themselves and then crying foul afterwards. I would hope that everyone on this board is an adult and is capable of making decisions about what risks they are wiling to take and not take. Given the problems that I see on this board with great regularity those that are so angry (to this day) and have not walked away it seems to me they didn't take the time to become educated and make a decision which would have made them much happier which would have been to not partake in the playing of any online games from any company given the contracts that are readily available before buying any of these games. The term buyer beware was not something that people made up for no reason. People didn't bother to research what they were getting into and 2 years later became angry when the terms they agreed to were put to the test. Two individuals came to the table and agreed to this contract. The correct thing to do when you read something you dont agree to is to walk away. I dont however think its totally legal, but given what is in print for one to read if I had felt like those who continue to lament this loss years later felt like I would not have agreed to the eula or even purchased the game.
|
|
Originally posted by ummax This is actually one of the issues that have always puzzled me when it came to EULAs. If the company changes the EULA and you refuse to accept the new version, the company by all rights should offer to refund you any money remaining in your subscription. They have essentially exercised their option to cancel the contract and now want to negotiate a new one. That is one issue that is bound to bite them in the legal ass soon enough.
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards?
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add. -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
|
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by Valeran
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards?
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs. |
|
Well its like this, you can play or not, kinda is messed up, ever hear of someone returning a game because they didnt agree? The only thing that really makes me mad, is all the SOE stole my kitten stuff. LA never got any blame in all this from fanatic fanboys, when they mess up SWTOR are you going to be blaming Bio-ware? 100$ says they will blame the messanger everytime meaning SOE and next on the plate will be Bio-ware, the devs said it, its pretty hard to develope a game with a fanbase. Just because Freeman and the rest made the NGE doesnt make them more guilty for ruining the game, me I blame Julio Torres and Nancy you read to much from LA. Because they ordered another major change to the game, and they approved it. |
|
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I will try a bit harder to explain why I dont think this is an issue of people being held hostage. I have stated awhile back now that I think most EULUA's are in fact illegal. Probably almost a year ago now, but in knowing that something is basically illegal before you get into it (the part of "buyer beware") we are all or should all have figured out by the time your an adult. There is still a choice in that this is the entertainment industry and the choice is to seak mmorpgs (not just swg I think all eula's are basically illegal which is why I cant stand seeing threads point out problems about all games targetting only one game as the problem is never gonna be fixed if you dont ask that ALL of them be looked at) as a source of entertainment of play offline games or heck go outside. If you can't deal with the fact that your basically seaking something with sketchy guidelines to start with be it this game or any other game (even WoW or EVE omg..) then as an individual capable of taking responsibility for your wallet and going in with eyes wide open then you need to either a) seak to take the risk and if it comes back to bite you in the butt 6 months later when they change something so be it or b) walk away At the present time those are the only choices one has until the system matures. It takes years for things to change so for now as an adult you have to accept it and do one of the above. I dont think its that huge a deal, but its been made one by people who had been reading eula which basically say "we can do whatever we want" from the get go and I guess not bothering to believe what they read. Thus one has to take responsibility for consciously ignoring a situation in the first place if you choose to click yes to such a contract repeatedly and keep at it and take your chances so be it, but you can't then scream foul when they actually abide by the terms of their contracts. In other situations one would refuse to agree to such a contract if one felt insecure but for some reason in this case when two parties are agreeing to the contract (which you are buy cliccking accept) one party is screaming foul. Games change like the wind I can't think of a single company that has not drastically changed their game now and taken the risk or is thinking of taking the risk. As a consumer one has to take some responsibility for the here and now and the correct action to take if you feel that this situation is one where you are being ripped off is to not click yes and walk away speedy fast and wait for change. Not hang around for like 2 years playing a game and cry foul after repeatedly clicking yes saying you were not expecting it, buying expansions ahead of time even clicking yes some more and then being upset afterwards?
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest. |
|
Originally posted by BullseyeArc1
I personally can't wait for the bioware mmo to be released. It will prove once and forall that LA and bioware and any other holy grail company you can think of with regards to the supposed saviours of the SWG gaming community is just as greedy if not moreso then LA has been with the SWG game. They are attempting to design a game that will appeal mainly to kotor fans the artwork and everything about the game screams that. KOTOR fans are for the most part offline casual gamers (somewhat like oo the blizzard offline games) and F2P and online card TCG's are all the rage. I would bet good money its got a RMT system in place and that not long after a card game is invented to go along with the rest of it. I doubt reality will hit some of the regular posters here though. They will probably stil be hiding from the truth of the situation which was that gaming was changing and companies changed with it. |
|
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by BullseyeArc1
Nancy surely seemed to give the impression that reading and complexity are bad. As for Julio, I was never a fan of the way he seemed to market the game. I especially didn' tlike the way he threw current players under the bus (imo) during interviews. Although SOE invented, pushed and implemented the NGE (and other unwelcome changes), LEC certainly had a role to play. Most people I know don't deny this. However, it's SOE that often gets defended by spurious logic and/or insults (not by posters like you btw, which is very refreshing). As a result, I think they get the bulk of responses. Also, Smed seems to have this habit of saying one thing to players and then doing the opposite, and not just in SWG. I think he's his own worst enemy in this regard. He also seems to claim to learn things and then turn around and do them again. So, people listen to him, have a faint hope that their MMO of choice could improve, and then watch as the next buzz-kill is implemented amid the protests of his players. |
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by ummax
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
|
|
This is possibly the most worthless debate I've seen on these forums yet. Comparing people in a life and death struggle to mmo subscribers? get a grip. So some people like the current game? There's no more analasys required other than to say that they like something the vast majority don't like, no different to any other facet of human nature. ...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought. |
|
Originally posted by efefia
actually this thread does prove one very important fact. ARGUING ABOUT THE GAME IS LOADS MORE FUN THAN PLAYING IT. |
|
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Which games have changed their core like SWG has? More than once I might add.
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
I see another doctor in the house welcome to the looney bin take a seat, but dont tell people that your different. You just use larger paragraphs. I certainly understand what you say you simply dont like to read what others say and like everyone here you need at least one person to disgree with in order to argue. Since we both agree that elua's are probably not particularly legal then it stands to reason that they all are not legal in the gaming industry. I know exactly what happened with WoW and other games and I know why people put up with changes now and didn't then. It simple really beyond words ... people are now used to changes and have learned that if they want to play a game they choose one and go with it and that nothing lasts forever. Anyhow open your eyes its all around you and if you want change (and it appears you do) then your going to have to say something about the entire mess. You choose not to look that is your problem however anyone that has witnessed what other companies do and are doing will confirm what has been said and have in fact confirmed it on these boards for you and others who try to deny that it happened elsewhere. However each time conveniently I might add you ignore the posts and move to other threads and close your eyes tightly so that you can continue to hate just one company and post only in these forums as opposed to the general forums where people might actually disagree with you or discuss things with you. What YOU want is everyone to pat you on the back and tell you your right so sit down and pour your troubles out (again) and tell everyone around you that this is normal what you do and then turn around and tell those who call you on it crazy so as to make yourself feel better. I find it funny , but this is oo so seroius to you how you lost your loved on 3 years back and have not gotten over it.. and here we sit every day with archangel making sure that no one ever forgets. Unfortunately for you at this point no one cares and no one even knows swg or nge with the exception of the 5 or so people that clamour around here in these hollow boards of nothingness. I know what your doing so at least be kind enough to admit it to yourself. You dont want to discuss gaming you want to discuss GAME one game with one name called SWG but you dont really want to discuss that either you want everyone here to say your right every time and want to use words like delusion to "discuss". Well lets be darned sure here your not discussing you have placed a label on others cause you dont think like they do and they dont think like you. Have at it as it seems you have nothing else to do with your time and you do seem to enjoy hashing and rehashing the same 3 points over and over again with no new points of view to deal with I mean that would require that you think which you dont want to do. You just want to posts your essays and have everyone tell you how great they are. Okay for you and others here
Yes archangel your right and I pat you on the back for your magnificent incite the same one you post every week on these boards. The same incites you have posted repeatedly for 3 lonng years. Now that you too have judged a player base and posters using words like "delusional" I can say what others have said to you and others OMG get over it already and move on this is not normal. Bye (I will be back in 6 months to point out your still here saying the same thing you said the last time I was here. ) happy post grinding I hope you find a new and better hobby one day but I doubt it you seem perfectly happy having the same conversation every single day of your life. lol |
|
|
*Wall of Text crits you for 8831 points of damage*
|
|
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by ummax
Good point. In fact, Freeman once commented that before the NGE something like 99% of the MMO providers would never consider doing something like the NGE, and now it's 100%. Claiming that SOE's actions here are commonplace in the industry is once again a clear distortion of reality I believe. A further distortion of reality occurs when the EULA is portrayed as a contract between equal parties who come to a table and agree on it. In fact the EULA is a very one-sided affair, and the one-side changes the contract whenever it sees fit--no table, no agreement, not even any discussion. When put to the test, similar EULAs have been struck down in court repeatedly for just this reason. Furthermore the EULA gave the service provider permission to "enhance" the game over time. This was the language of one EULA, and people readily agreed to this. What people did not expect, and could not possibly foresee, was that SOE would interpret enhancement to mean the deletion of most of the games professions and a number of features just purchased in an expansion. These deletions were specifically called an "enhancement" if you recall, which matches the language of the EULA, but does not match the common meaning of the term. So, saying that people were warned in advance that SOE could and would pull a stunt like the NGE is another distortion of reality I believe, and a bad one. In fact, if people were so-warned in advance, and if they clearly agreed to this, I doubt SOE would have felt the need to provide the massive refund campaign that followed. Also, to claim that people are still venting anger about these events is also in many cases an inaccurate perception I believe. I think it's more likely that some people (myself for example) feel inclined to set the record straight when they read fresh attempts to deny the reality that we all experienced. Try denying someone's experience in almost any setting, and I think you'll get a similar response. When not attempting to provide a reality check (I'm starting to think this is futile btw lol), I've noticed that people have generally moved on to discuss other aspects of this game (present and future) as well as other upcoming StarWars and Sci-fi MMOs.
yeah actualy you need to like read what i say as for "distortion of reality" if you want to use words like that then your just using the backhanded insult crap. An insult is still an insult so realize that you just did exactly what you blame others for. YOu know archangel at this point I lump you with all the rest of the crusaders who just can't get over the past. You dont read anything said here unless it suits your purpose. Here is a newslash look up the words "NGE and WOW" and you will find articles likening the change of the WoW combat system to the Sony NGE and questions asked like "why did blizzard get away with it and sony not". Sad truth is you have blinders on. I have not found any games where they have not had to implement revamps as they age from adding level systems to totally open sandboxes (no I'm not talking about SWG I'm talking about another game) to complete combat revamps (again I"m not talking SWG I'm talking another game) you refuse to acknowledge that the grass is not any greener on the other side of the street and sit here piling all the woes of the gaming industry on one single company that is operating EXACTLY the same as any other company around .
Let me know when you want to actually have a discussion because right now your disguising your hate for a single company attempting to call it a discussion in general but not all at the same time. Make up your mind do you want to discuss games? or simply be like everyone else here and insult present day players and accuse everyone of defending a company for actually stating an opinion on gaming in general. If your not interested in it please say so and I wil just let you go on your crusade and ignore you like all the rest.
I really don't think you understand many of the comments I make. You then seem to project negative meanings onto them, that simply aren't there. For instance, now you're accusing me of being hateful and insulting. It's also clear that you don't understand my comments about EULA and contract law. It's clear that you don't see the difference in magnitude of game changes in SWG versus WoW. You also don't seem to see the difference between how the changes were implemented. You also seem to make statements and then later deny doing so, or perhaps forget what you said for some reason. It's clear that whatever our differences of opinion, they can't be resolved using simple communication. I think that's unfortunate, but it seems to be realistic. Ignoring me probably isn't a bad idea. As I've read through this thread, however, I'm even more convinced that some (probably a few) players are vulnerable to what I've highlighted as "identification with the aggressor" though. It seems that offences are excused, explained away and blamed on players. It seems that some players also think that all MMOs are the same and will treat them with equal disdain. All I can say is that I've played three MMOs since this one, and the quality and customer service between the other companies and SOE was like night and day to me. It was very refreshing. So, there is life outside of SWG, and it seems to be a lot more hassle free and entertaining imo. For those that are unwilling or unable to see this for some reason, I respectfully choose to leave them with their worldview.
I see another doctor in the house welcome to the looney bin take a seat, but dont tell people that your different. You just use larger paragraphs. I certainly understand what you say you simply dont like to read what others say and like everyone here you need at least one person to disgree with in order to argue. Since we both agree that elua's are probably not particularly legal then it stands to reason that they all are not legal in the gaming industry. I know exactly what happened with WoW and other games and I know why people put up with changes now and didn't then. It simple really beyond words ... people are now used to changes and have learned that if they want to play a game they choose one and go with it and that nothing lasts forever. Anyhow open your eyes its all around you and if you want change (and it appears you do) then your going to have to say something about the entire mess. You choose not to look that is your problem however anyone that has witnessed what other companies do and are doing will confirm what has been said and have in fact confirmed it on these boards for you and others who try to deny that it happened elsewhere. However each time conveniently I might add you ignore the posts and move to other threads and close your eyes tightly so that you can continue to hate just one company and post only in these forums as opposed to the general forums where people might actually disagree with you or discuss things with you. What YOU want is everyone to pat you on the back and tell you your right so sit down and pour your troubles out (again) and tell everyone around you that this is normal what you do and then turn around and tell those who call you on it crazy so as to make yourself feel better. I find it funny , but this is oo so seroius to you how you lost your loved on 3 years back and have not gotten over it.. and here we sit every day with archangel making sure that no one ever forgets. Unfortunately for you at this point no one cares and no one even knows swg or nge with the exception of the 5 or so people that clamour around here in these hollow boards of nothingness. I know what your doing so at least be kind enough to admit it to yourself. You dont want to discuss gaming you want to discuss GAME one game with one name called SWG but you dont really want to discuss that either you want everyone here to say your right every time and want to use words like delusion to "discuss". Well lets be darned sure here your not discussing you have placed a label on others cause you dont think like they do and they dont think like you. Have at it as it seems you have nothing else to do with your time and you do seem to enjoy hashing and rehashing the same 3 points over and over again with no new points of view to deal with I mean that would require that you think which you dont want to do. You just want to posts your essays and have everyone tell you how great they are. Okay for you and others here
Yes archangel your right and I pat you on the back for your magnificent incite the same one you post every week on these boards. The same incites you have posted repeatedly for 3 lonng years. Now that you too have judged a player base and posters using words like "delusional" I can say what others have said to you and others OMG get over it already and move on this is not normal. Bye (I will be back in 6 months to point out your still here saying the same thing you said the last time I was here. ) happy post grinding I hope you find a new and better hobby one day but I doubt it you seem perfectly happy having the same conversation every single day of your life. lol
/politely refuses to dance :) |
|
Jesus these wall of text are taller than the Eifel tower! List of SOE lies |
|
Even when I need the break, I keep going back to City of Heroes/Villains because of its combat system, it's the closest there is to pre-CU's combat system (lock target, queue attacks, non-diminishing chance rolls, etc.) plus the game has decent support from devs & customer services and they release free content at least twice a year. Tabula Rasa had excellet customer service, probably the best I've seen but unfortunately that game didn't live for long. The current combat system in SWG is so disheartening, I can't even stand it and they continue to change/nerf something with it.
List of SOE lies |
|
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by efefia
I agree with you on this, believe it or not. In my experience, 99% of people that still play and even defend the game do so simply because they enjoy their experience and their community. I don't think it's helpful at all to put these folks down, and some are my good friends. At the same time, I have seen a few things that have given me cause to reflect with concern on some of the social dynamics in MMOs. I have seen people develop what appears to be a strong emotional/social dependence on an MMO. I thought that it's possible that the MMO becomes more of a need than a luxury, and then when this need is threatened people may react defensively. I've wondered if this dependence could even lead to some people defending the MMO and the service provider at the expense of good reality testing. I've wondered if people would blame themselves and other gamers for poor treatment by the service provider. I've wondered if people would even become aggressive themselves in doing this. Frankly, I have seen all of these hallmarks from a very few SOE defenders, and it's led me to wonder exactly what's going on there. I've just finished visiting another forum where someone defending their MMO of choice provided their address to another poster along with an invitation to come and settle their difference through violence. This, in my opinion, is most certainly identification with the aggressor, quite literally. Having said that, I think it's important to highlight that "identification with the aggressor" is not only found in life and death struggles. I actually highlighted that much earlier in the thread. People can do it in peer groups for instance. Ever see someone put themselves down to try to gain the favour of a powerful peer group? I have, and that's the same principle at work. The principle is simply most evident when the stakes are the highest, which is why I used such a scenario as an example. All in all, if anyone finds him or herself aggressively defending an MMO at the expense of good reality testing, and at the expense of someone else's dignity, I think it doesn't hurt to take a step back and see what the hell is going on under the hood so to speak. |
|
ArcAngel3
Elite Member
Joined: 9/25/06
What makes a good MMO? Good quality, good customer service, good business model, good fun. |
Originally posted by sookster54 My customer service experience in CoH was also excellent. Once when an NPC wouldn't follow me, I got a CSR to correct the problem within 10 minutes of submitting a ticket. The person was very friendly and helpful. When I had the same problem in SWG, I frankly never got a response to my ticket. After about 6 months, there was a general post on the dev forum saying there were plans to address the issue; SOE eventually deleted the entire quest line. Problem solved I guess lol. Quite frankly, these are simply concrete examples of a different level of service. I hear similar good things from friends about EVE, WoW and Lotr. There is usually the odd horror story too, but it's a matter of degree. No game or service provider is perfect, but there are noticeable differences in my experience, and apparently in the experience of millions of other players that stick with the game that seems to have the most polish. Games also change, but once again this is a matter of degree. Was the core system ripped out and replaced as it was in SWG, twice? (some would argue 3 x) Also, there are differences in communication. Are players given fair warning about upcoming changes? Are the changes left on test for days, or a month or more? Do the changes add to the game or take away from it? Does player feedback influence the upcoming patch or doesn't it? If it does, how much so? I think it's good reality testing to recognize that all games and game companies are not equal when these questions are answered. Some seem to have a better track record than others. I think if people can recognize this, it opens up more positive options. I also think it holds the service provider accountable for some level of quality. Sometimes I get the impression that some SOE defenders would like everyone to believe that all MMOs have just as many bugs and issues, revamps, and poor customer service. If everyone sucks, why look for a better option? The trouble with this approach is that in my experience, it's simply not true. If anyone checks the rating/comments section of this site regarding the various games, I know I'm not alone in this assessment.
|
