Remember your favourite Nintendo, SuperNintendo, Sega Genesis, Playstation 1 or Playstation 2 games?  How 'bout good PC games like Knights of the Old Republic or the Kyle Katarn series?  Well, I remember all of these, and all the fun I had with friends and family gaming together.

It always seemed like the games were made for the purpose of entertaining people (this used to be a given).  Many of them were well done and they brought people hours of enjoyment that they didn't mind paying for.  The fun was worth the price of admission so to speak.

What do we see now though?  Games are released before they are working so that they can begin generating revenue ASAP.  Things are advertised to get people to subscribe, but some of those things never materialize.  Bug fixes are promised to keep people paying, but the fixes never take place.  Virtual items are sold to people, but the company selling them claims to retain ownership of them after the sale.  People pay for a random chance of getting  a virtual item, and receive no entertainment value whatsoever for their money.  Intellectual properties are seen as ways to hook people into a virtual community where they will become emotionally attached--and then the fleecing begins.  SWG seems to fit many of these examples, but it's not alone.

When did video gaming change so drastically?  I have to wonder what that's all about and whether or not the industry will ever find its way back to the roots that made it so popular.

P.S. A few MMO companies seem to have maintained a healthy vision, and I hope they continue to do so.  As for the others, it really seems like they've lost their way, and I wonder if they even realize it.

Things changed with the rise of consoles and the fact that the gaming industry just about pulls in the same, if not more, than the movie industry.

Get that money. That's what's about. The whole industry changed too when you had non-gamers becoming producers and developers and executives.

I miss those old early days of Electronic Arts when they were one of the most respected gaming companies around. As a child, we lived for any new EA release. Now, I can't even remember the last time I bought an EA game.

The all mighty buck ruels all.

A lot of the blame has to go to the consumer also.  We have such high expectations of the "Next Big Game" that the studios have to hype the heck out of their next game or run the risk of having their game branded a failure before it even launches.

Realistic expectations by the consumer and realistic promises by the studios will go a long way to bring the fun back to our favorite pasttime.

Ion

This has arisen due to the spread of online gaming.  You rarely saw an unfinished console game in the past because no one would buy it.  Now with the ability to download more content after release, you're seeing more console users accept a lower standard of game.  PC games were a bit ahead of this curve in that regard. 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Remember your favourite Nintendo, SuperNintendo, Sega Genesis, Playstation 1 or Playstation 2 games?  How 'bout good PC games like Knights of the Old Republic or the Kyle Katarn series?  Well, I remember all of these, and all the fun I had with friends and family gaming together.

It always seemed like the games were made for the purpose of entertaining people (this used to be a given).  Many of them were well done and they brought people hours of enjoyment that they didn't mind paying for.  The fun was worth the price of admission so to speak.

What do we see now though?  Games are released before they are working so that they can begin generating revenue ASAP.  Things are advertised to get people to subscribe, but some of those things never materialize.  Bug fixes are promised to keep people paying, but the fixes never take place.  Virtual items are sold to people, but the company selling them claims to retain ownership of them after the sale.  People pay for a random chance of getting  a virtual item, and receive no entertainment value whatsoever for their money.  Intellectual properties are seen as ways to hook people into a virtual community where they will become emotionally attached--and then the fleecing begins.  SWG seems to fit many of these examples, but it's not alone.

When did video gaming change so drastically?  I have to wonder what that's all about and whether or not the industry will ever find its way back to the roots that made it so popular.

P.S. A few MMO companies seem to have maintained a healthy vision, and I hope they continue to do so.  As for the others, it really seems like they've lost their way, and I wonder if they even realize it.

whilst i agree that gaming in general does seem to have taken a turn to the worse, i dont think it is due to many of the reasons you post above, or how these reasons have affected the "fun" factor.

for instance: how does virtual item properties have any effect on the fun factor? how does the choice of buying virtual items influence the core game's entertainment? or let me put it this way - what difference is there between a bought virtual item and one that is included in the game in terms of entertainment value (it seems to me you are questionning the value of games here, not their fun factor)

how does intellectual property hook people into the game, and why is this less entertaining?

as for when did gaming change so drastically, for some reason WoW comes to mind here. i believe developers have seen this game as a universal recipe for "fun", and creativity has gone out the window ever since.

Originally posted by Hozloff

for instance: how does virtual item properties have any effect on the fun factor? how does the choice of buying virtual items influence the core game's entertainment? or let me put it this way - what difference is there between a bought virtual item and one that is included in the game in terms of entertainment value (it seems to me you are questionning the value of games here, not their fun factor)

I believe that it's about the experience of getting that item. Buying it lessens the experience IMO.

Also, someone who buys via an online store a comparable item to something I've worked for essentially devalues what I've worked for.

Originally posted by Hozloff

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Remember your favourite Nintendo, SuperNintendo, Sega Genesis, Playstation 1 or Playstation 2 games?  How 'bout good PC games like Knights of the Old Republic or the Kyle Katarn series?  Well, I remember all of these, and all the fun I had with friends and family gaming together.

It always seemed like the games were made for the purpose of entertaining people (this used to be a given).  Many of them were well done and they brought people hours of enjoyment that they didn't mind paying for.  The fun was worth the price of admission so to speak.

What do we see now though?  Games are released before they are working so that they can begin generating revenue ASAP.  Things are advertised to get people to subscribe, but some of those things never materialize.  Bug fixes are promised to keep people paying, but the fixes never take place.  Virtual items are sold to people, but the company selling them claims to retain ownership of them after the sale.  People pay for a random chance of getting  a virtual item, and receive no entertainment value whatsoever for their money.  Intellectual properties are seen as ways to hook people into a virtual community where they will become emotionally attached--and then the fleecing begins.  SWG seems to fit many of these examples, but it's not alone.

When did video gaming change so drastically?  I have to wonder what that's all about and whether or not the industry will ever find its way back to the roots that made it so popular.

P.S. A few MMO companies seem to have maintained a healthy vision, and I hope they continue to do so.  As for the others, it really seems like they've lost their way, and I wonder if they even realize it.

 

whilst i agree that gaming in general does seem to have taken a turn to the worse, i dont think it is due to many of the reasons you post above, or how these reasons have affected the "fun" factor.

for instance: how does virtual item properties have any effect on the fun factor? how does the choice of buying virtual items influence the core game's entertainment? or let me put it this way - what difference is there between a bought virtual item and one that is included in the game in terms of entertainment value (it seems to me you are questionning the value of games here, not their fun factor)

how does intellectual property hook people into the game, and why is this less entertaining?

as for when did gaming change so drastically, for some reason WoW comes to mind here. i believe developers have seen this game as a universal recipe for "fun", and creativity has gone out the window ever since.

Hey there Hozloff, good questions, very thought provoking.  I think some specifics are needed to communicate my thoughts better.  Here's a simple comparison as it relates to RMT and fun factor.  Is it more fun to complete a well designed quest to gain good loot, or to purchase it from an item shop?  This seems to be taken even a step further via the buy TCG cards hoping to get certain loot items in SWG.  So, you buy a card pack hoping to get a sith speeder and get no loot items at all.  How much fun is it buying virtual card packs trying to get something, and ending up with nothing you wanted?  Probably not very.  The only exictement probably comes if you ever hit the jackpot.  Otherwise buying the packs is about as much fun a pulling the lever on a slot machine. 

Regarding intellectual property, people get drawn to a particular game because of the IP.  Who gets drawn by a StarWars title for example?  Well, StarWars fans...and others of course, who are just video game enthusiasts.  Then many game mechanics are designed to foster social and emotional connections.  This is fine, mind you, in and of itself and is part of what immersion is all about I think.  However, more and more these attachments seem to be used to hook people into an environment that then makes it necessary for them to buy the latest RMT gear to remain competitive. 

They come to the virtual world to check out the IP.  They get hooked by the social/emotional dynamics of the online community, and then they want to remain useful and competitive, or gain access to the places that all their friends go to--so they become prime targets for the RMT dairy farm.  I was reading an interview with an MMO exec where he talked about the power of the community to hook people.  In another interview he then talked about the desirabiltiy of moving to an RMT model because these invested people will pay you more than you might expect in an RMT model, more than the traditional subscription model.

This kind of philosophy seems to be a massive departure from the one that used to ask, "how can I make a kickass videogame that everyone's gonna want to play?"  Game companies used to try to outdo each other in terms of entertainment value to earn our dollars.  Now some of them are admittedly just strategizing how to suck us into a situation where they can hook the milking machine directly to our Visa account.  They seem to view gamers as cows to be milked rather than persons to be entertained.  I'm old lol, and I remember when it just wasn't like that. 

The only thing that used to hook us was the fun, and we knew exactly what we were getting and how much we were paying for it up front.  Not so any longer with some MMO companies.  It's a sad state of affairs.

It's not just the companies, it's the kids playing the games these days. I have 2 sons, one is almost 10 and the other is to young. Now, I am old enough to remember when video games first went to consoles. Really, the only time i ever played my atari was when it was to shitty outside to do anything else or I had a bunch of friends sleeping over. It was basically like that for me through the whole side scroll era, arcades were fun though. Same thing on commodore 64 and amiga.  Anyway, i won't bore you with my gaming history.

Here's the 21st century, it's all about instant gratification. I have spent 1000's of dollars on my kids gaming, 1000's, He's got all the systems. last year it was 360 and wii, this year it's ps3.  Think about that, when i was a kid 1 system would be good for 3 or more years. We have 3 pc's so he plays pc games as well. He won't start a noob out in WoW ( he loves wow btw) cause he has no money. If i give him 100 gold it's gone by the time he's level 12. I don't know how many damn games I have bought to hear him cry it's to hard, then find the cheat codes and play it for 10 more hours then it collects dust. These games are $80 a piece, I get furious but what can you do? you try to make your kids happy. He's doing pretty good with WoW, nhl09 and CODWaW but he never goes outside and plays. No kids go outside and play these days. He's in minor hockey but he'd rather stay home and nerd. he's in school but he'd rather stay home and nerd. Games and companies have gotten out of control. He basically has no friends that he plays with except for at school because all kids are like sociopath anti-socials these days. all of them do the same thing. Gaming has become the only form of entertainment for these kids. That said, they have this mentality that they have to be instantly uber. I try to tell him to" take your time" "enjoy the game" nope!  I try and make him figure things out for himself but nope! google! thotbott! there is always a guide somewhere. then when you've figured out how to be instantly uber, the game collects dust because you didn't take the time to have fun and actually invest in the game.

I think it's actually at the point of a crisis. we are so far away from tabletop games and mario brothers it isn't even funny.  The oldest generation that grew up on games is now a minority and the majority are kids. Who can't think for themselves, don't want to, and desire to be that instantly uber hero that everyone talks about in that mmo. when they realize that they aren't because they didn't take the time the game gets shelved and they move on to the next game. Companies are going to milk that for all it's worth. You can make the funnest game in the world but if it doesn't target the new majority it won't get anywhere. That's why games and companies suck now.

I am considering trying to get him into pre-cu and we'll see how that goes. Just to add my fear for the Old republic mmo, if you actually have to think and make decisions and it's not linear and you can't look up a guide. it will collect a lot of dust with this new generation.

Huge budgets mean the only major projects that get off the ground are ones that the folks putting up the money believe will sell enough to cover their investment with a decent profit.  It is also the reason so many existing IPs are used instead of original ones.  A popular IP guarantees a certain number of sales regardless of quality (SWG is a shining example).

In the old days, a game could be made by less than a handful of people being involved.  They didn't require a ton of money or time to be invested to produce.  As the gaming industry grew, budgets, along with consumer expectations, have grown exponentially.  Games are no longer made by a guy sitting in his closet (for the most part), they are made by teams of between fifty to over a hundred people, with budgets in the several million range.  The time when a couple of guys with an idea they think is interesting can make something of a similar quality to what  the major gaming companies are producing is long gone.

As to releasing games before they are ready, well that is mainly a result of hard drives becoming standard.  Prior to hard drives, a company would have to release a whole new set of disks (or cartridges on the console) to fix existing bugs or glitches.  It was very expensive to do this, and most companies would just add the updated version to the shelves without even offering the update to the folks who bought the original version (some companies would offer to replace the original version with the new version for a small fee, usually around $5).  Since hardware was more standard back then, it was less likely that a major game breaking bug would make it into the final product, so most updates were minor things that most consumers didn't really notice.

With the hard drive, companies could patch their products after release without the need to bother offering to replace the original disks.  Patches could be obtained from companies by contacting them and getting a patch disk sent to them (somethines for a small fee), from a dial-up server for folks with a modem, or from private BBSs that made them available.  As the internet became more and more standard in the home, companies could much more easily make patches available.  With the rise of the Windows based PC as the leasing home computing platform, the days of standardized hardware were gone, which greatly increases the chances of something not working correctly.

While the PC was seeing a major increase in unfinished products hitting the shelves, the consoles were not, mainly due to still lacking the ability to patch their product, along with still having standarized hardware.  Since todays generation of consoles now have hard drives, patches are becoming more prevelant on them.  With downloadable added content becoming standard for the consoles, many companies are choosing to hold back features so they can sell them at a later time.  They are also doing a bit of RMT by selling in-game items for a small fee.

To sum it all up, the gaming industry is in the state it currently is due to the ongoing forward march of technology, combined with the massive amount of money it can potentially generate.  Another reason for unfinished products is that sometimes the development money is used up, and a decision needs to be made to either scrap the project, or ship it with the intent to finish it later.

Originally posted by Obee

Huge budgets mean the only major projects that get off the ground are ones that the folks putting up the money believe will sell enough to cover their investment with a decent profit.  It is also the reason so many existing IPs are used instead of original ones.  A popular IP guarantees a certain number of sales regardless of quality (SWG is a shining example).

In the old days, a game could be made by less than a handful of people being involved.  They didn't require a ton of money or time to be invested to produce.  As the gaming industry grew, budgets, along with consumer expectations, have grown exponentially.  Games are no longer made by a guy sitting in his closet (for the most part), they are made by teams of between fifty to over a hundred people, with budgets in the several million range.  The time when a couple of guys with an idea they think is interesting can make something of a similar quality to what  the major gaming companies are producing is long gone.

As to releasing games before they are ready, well that is mainly a result of hard drives becoming standard.  Prior to hard drives, a company would have to release a whole new set of disks (or cartridges on the console) to fix existing bugs or glitches.  It was very expensive to do this, and most companies would just add the updated version to the shelves without even offering the update to the folks who bought the original version (some companies would offer to replace the original version with the new version for a small fee, usually around $5).  Since hardware was more standard back then, it was less likely that a major game breaking bug would make it into the final product, so most updates were minor things that most consumers didn't really notice.

With the hard drive, companies could patch their products after release without the need to bother offering to replace the original disks.  Patches could be obtained from companies by contacting them and getting a patch disk sent to them (somethines for a small fee), from a dial-up server for folks with a modem, or from private BBSs that made them available.  As the internet became more and more standard in the home, companies could much more easily make patches available.  With the rise of the Windows based PC as the leasing home computing platform, the days of standardized hardware were gone, which greatly increases the chances of something not working correctly.

While the PC was seeing a major increase in unfinished products hitting the shelves, the consoles were not, mainly due to still lacking the ability to patch their product, along with still having standarized hardware.  Since todays generation of consoles now have hard drives, patches are becoming more prevelant on them.  With downloadable added content becoming standard for the consoles, many companies are choosing to hold back features so they can sell them at a later time.  They are also doing a bit of RMT by selling in-game items for a small fee.

To sum it all up, the gaming industry is in the state it currently is due to the ongoing forward march of technology, combined with the massive amount of money it can potentially generate.  Another reason for unfinished products is that sometimes the development money is used up, and a decision needs to be made to either scrap the project, or ship it with the intent to finish it later.

 

 

That's a great history of the evolution of video gaming there Obee.  One thing I'd like to add though is that some companies choose not to release a game unfinished.  Wow is a good example of a game that was released in a highly functional state, compared to SWG for instance.  Lotr also had a postive release. 

These companies could have chosen the "release now, get money now, fix later" approach, but they did not.  They seemed to be more capable of long-range thinking.  They seem also to take more pride in their work as well, and have customer satisfaction as a core value.  Happy customers are likely to stay and invite other happy customers.  Blizz seems to get this.  I've been invited by at least a dozen friends in rl or online to join them on WoW, simply because they love it and think I'd have a good time.

I think Blizz has core values that lead to success.  A few MMOs seem to have this, but most in my opinion do not.  It seems that they've fallen prey to the instant gratification (regarding a quick turnaround on their investment)  that we see so often in some of their customers.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Obee

Huge budgets mean the only major projects that get off the ground are ones that the folks putting up the money believe will sell enough to cover their investment with a decent profit.  It is also the reason so many existing IPs are used instead of original ones.  A popular IP guarantees a certain number of sales regardless of quality (SWG is a shining example).

In the old days, a game could be made by less than a handful of people being involved.  They didn't require a ton of money or time to be invested to produce.  As the gaming industry grew, budgets, along with consumer expectations, have grown exponentially.  Games are no longer made by a guy sitting in his closet (for the most part), they are made by teams of between fifty to over a hundred people, with budgets in the several million range.  The time when a couple of guys with an idea they think is interesting can make something of a similar quality to what  the major gaming companies are producing is long gone.

As to releasing games before they are ready, well that is mainly a result of hard drives becoming standard.  Prior to hard drives, a company would have to release a whole new set of disks (or cartridges on the console) to fix existing bugs or glitches.  It was very expensive to do this, and most companies would just add the updated version to the shelves without even offering the update to the folks who bought the original version (some companies would offer to replace the original version with the new version for a small fee, usually around $5).  Since hardware was more standard back then, it was less likely that a major game breaking bug would make it into the final product, so most updates were minor things that most consumers didn't really notice.

With the hard drive, companies could patch their products after release without the need to bother offering to replace the original disks.  Patches could be obtained from companies by contacting them and getting a patch disk sent to them (somethines for a small fee), from a dial-up server for folks with a modem, or from private BBSs that made them available.  As the internet became more and more standard in the home, companies could much more easily make patches available.  With the rise of the Windows based PC as the leasing home computing platform, the days of standardized hardware were gone, which greatly increases the chances of something not working correctly.

While the PC was seeing a major increase in unfinished products hitting the shelves, the consoles were not, mainly due to still lacking the ability to patch their product, along with still having standarized hardware.  Since todays generation of consoles now have hard drives, patches are becoming more prevelant on them.  With downloadable added content becoming standard for the consoles, many companies are choosing to hold back features so they can sell them at a later time.  They are also doing a bit of RMT by selling in-game items for a small fee.

To sum it all up, the gaming industry is in the state it currently is due to the ongoing forward march of technology, combined with the massive amount of money it can potentially generate.  Another reason for unfinished products is that sometimes the development money is used up, and a decision needs to be made to either scrap the project, or ship it with the intent to finish it later.

 

 

That's a great history of the evolution of video gaming there Obee.  One thing I'd like to add though is that some companies choose not to release a game unfinished.  Wow is a good example of a game that was released in a highly functional state, compared to SWG for instance.  Lotr also had a postive release. 

These companies could have chosen the "release now, get money now, fix later" approach, but they did not.  They seemed to be more capable of long-range thinking.  They seem also to take more pride in their work as well, and have customer satisfaction as a core value.  Happy customers are likely to stay and invite other happy customers.  Blizz seems to get this.  I've been invited by at least a dozen friends in rl or online to join them on WoW, simply because they love it and think I'd have a good time.

I think Blizz has core values that lead to success.  A few MMOs seem to have this, but most in my opinion do not.  It seems that they've fallen prey to the instant gratification (regarding a quick turnaround on their investment)  that we see so often in some of their customers.

For most companies, it isn't about instant gratification, it is that they overestimate their ability and don't realize they cannot finish the project until they are out of money.  That is the reason many developers only release a game or two before closing or selling the company (which are usually only bought for their IPs, not talent).  That isn't to say there aren't many companies that just don't care about quality, as SOE is a shining example of one.  The fact that unfinished games can still sell in large numbers has made the 'Ship now, fix later' mentality much more common than it should be.  If fewer gamers were willing to pay for crap, less crap would be released, which would also result in fewer releases.

Also keep in mind that most game development companies are founded by coders and designers, not people with business backgrounds.  It makes the atmosphere at these companies much more informal, which is better for creativity, but horrible for structure and discipline, which snowballs into missed deadlines and no money.

no. It's always been about money. Entertainment is a path to money. And I don't think the path ever changed either. What maybe changed is the fact that there are currently some crappy companies making dumb decisions while trying to entertain us in order to make money. But that probably didn't even change. You might just be noticing it more.

Originally posted by the_lizard

It's not just the companies, it's the kids playing the games these days. I have 2 sons, one is almost 10 and the other is to young. Now, I am old enough to remember when video games first went to consoles. Really, the only time i ever played my atari was when it was to shitty outside to do anything else or I had a bunch of friends sleeping over. It was basically like that for me through the whole side scroll era, arcades were fun though. Same thing on commodore 64 and amiga.  Anyway, i won't bore you with my gaming history.

 

Here's the 21st century, it's all about instant gratification. I have spent 1000's of dollars on my kids gaming, 1000's, He's got all the systems. last year it was 360 and wii, this year it's ps3.  Think about that, when i was a kid 1 system would be good for 3 or more years. We have 3 pc's so he plays pc games as well. He won't start a noob out in WoW ( he loves wow btw) cause he has no money. If i give him 100 gold it's gone by the time he's level 12. I don't know how many damn games I have bought to hear him cry it's to hard, then find the cheat codes and play it for 10 more hours then it collects dust. These games are $80 a piece, I get furious but what can you do? you try to make your kids happy. He's doing pretty good with WoW, nhl09 and CODWaW but he never goes outside and plays. No kids go outside and play these days. He's in minor hockey but he'd rather stay home and nerd. he's in school but he'd rather stay home and nerd. Games and companies have gotten out of control. He basically has no friends that he plays with except for at school because all kids are like sociopath anti-socials these days. all of them do the same thing. Gaming has become the only form of entertainment for these kids. That said, they have this mentality that they have to be instantly uber. I try to tell him to" take your time" "enjoy the game" nope!  I try and make him figure things out for himself but nope! google! thotbott! there is always a guide somewhere. then when you've figured out how to be instantly uber, the game collects dust because you didn't take the time to have fun and actually invest in the game.

 

I think it's actually at the point of a crisis. we are so far away from tabletop games and mario brothers it isn't even funny.  The oldest generation that grew up on games is now a minority and the majority are kids. Who can't think for themselves, don't want to, and desire to be that instantly uber hero that everyone talks about in that mmo. when they realize that they aren't because they didn't take the time the game gets shelved and they move on to the next game. Companies are going to milk that for all it's worth. You can make the funnest game in the world but if it doesn't target the new majority it won't get anywhere. That's why games and companies suck now.

 

I am considering trying to get him into pre-cu and we'll see how that goes. Just to add my fear for the Old republic mmo, if you actually have to think and make decisions and it's not linear and you can't look up a guide. it will collect a lot of dust with this new generation.

I agree. When I finished my degree in History I decided to try teaching for some years. I was like 24 then. Had students between 15 and 18 years, the later ones in the final stage of education. Overall I was 10 years older than the youngest ones and around 6 with relegation to twelve graders- what means that when they were born I was like runniing in a tricycle .

I couldn't believe that the gross majority of the stundents I had were not capable of thinking by themselfes. I had to downgrade the kind of questions I made in test to a shameful level. I remember that in my 10th grade  the economy teacher asked a guy in my class who won WWII, that guy was on drugs and booze like every day and answered "the germans"..(notice this is in europe, if it was in the US i guess he would have answered US) we all laughed hard... he was like the dumbest guy in the class.... some years ago I made a similar question ... I got even worst answers....I ended up thinking that the guy on drugs, that skipped classes like day in day out....knew that at least the germans had something to do with WW2.

I had kids with 14  or 15 years that don't know how to climb a tree to fetch a ball that got stuck !  

Tho at the same time we (people of my age) are the ones to blame. We invested so much in our careers and our bank accounts, worry so much about mortages and country houses  that he forgot to teach our own sons what is living  and having fun all about .

I honestly wouldn't trade what I had in my early years (like from 6 to 16 or so) for what I would have now at the same age.

you " think it's actually at the point of a crisis.", I honestly believe we are already. In fact, in direct result of that I quited teaching since it was "stupifiying" me .

It is not a surprise we get rushed out games this days. The target public doesnt invest enough time on them to actually see the game is rushed or incomplet.

LOOL u have fuked up ur kid, and its ur own foult. Parents dont have time for kids and buy em all shit... but thats not rly parenting. or how to raise a child. thats everywhere. and y its fucked up.

Talkin bout my lil brother whos well 13 atm, he doesnt have PC or anything. and i am glad about that. Hes out along time every day with friends haveing fun doing stupid things what kids do.  If he had pc he would sit at home pretty much.

video games suck now

i have not played anything good in the last 5 years outside swg pre-cu before it was stolen from us by $OE

i blame this casual gaming fad and yes it is a fad and the consoles

casual gamers are a ton of kiddies who need to go back to watching mtv or the wwe and consoles are the worst thing to ever happen to gaming

but i have seen a drop in gaming sales meaning the kiddies are going back to watching mtv and the wwe so i think we will have good gaming back in another year

 I remember when video games used to be about entertainment New.

I don't only remember as I still do the same thing, only play a game if it's entertaining and since the topic title spoke about video games I can say they are still entertaining to me.

Now if we talk MMORPG I agree many are not that entertaining to me, but thats personal as I see many people enjoying games I am not enjoying which is a fact that even if I personaly do not like those games they are still entertaining towards other people.

Ever since I am into gaming, which is since PONG there would be games I would dislike and simply would not play, nothing really changed as I know not every game could or wants to satisfied my personal needs.

 

Originally posted by Reklaw

 I remember when video games used to be about entertainment New.

I don't only remember as I still do the same thing, only play a game if it's entertaining and since the topic title spoke about video games I can say they are still entertaining to me.

Now if we talk MMORPG I agree many are not that entertaining to me, but thats personal as I see many people enjoying games I am not enjoying which is a fact that even if I personaly do not like those games they are still entertaining towards other people.

Ever since I am into gaming, which is since PONG there would be games I would dislike and simply would not play, nothing really changed as I know not every game could or wants to satisfied my personal needs.

 

I get what you're saying, I think, and I must say I don't play anything I don't find entertaining either--whether that's an MMO, a single-player PC game, or a console game.

My thinking is more about trends in the industry.  With pong, for instance, you knew what you were getting when you paid for it: two sticks and a floating dot.  You paid your money, you enjoyed yourself, often with a friend, and that was the end of the story.  A happy ending too I think.

Now, it's like companies set up money pits intentionally.  Take the TCG loot items as just one example.  They have a huge marketting push for the loot items, and then make them available via a game of chance.  I've looked at the official forums and seen people losing their shirts over this.  Make no mistake though, I'm not anti-gambling.  What I'm not cheerful about is the idea that this game of chance is being misrepresented.  It's not advertised as a game of chance, even though it is one.  It's not controlled or regulated like a game of chance, even though it is one.  People with a gambling addiction are not told that they're being invited to participate in a game of chance.  The "free" cards that can't be sold or traded function much like "complimentary chips" at a hotel with a casino.

Did SOE implement a strategy like this primarily to entertain people?  I doubt it.  How entertaining is it to pay money for virtual cards?  If you randomly get what you're hoping for, I suppose it's fun, but the chances are you won't.  That's about as much fun as swiping my visa card--it doesn't really have that much entertainment value.

Other game companies seem to have the same mind-set.  I just read an interview about a CEO discussing how the gaming community is really little more than a "hook" to get people emotionally invested in the virtual world.  Then they tie successful gaming to the ongoing purchase of virtual items.  They code social tools to hook people, and then print themselves money by creating virtual gear that you need to pay for in order to be competitive.  They don't come right out and tell you this though.  They make it seem as though they're only interested in giving you a "free" game for you own enjoyment.  Sounds too good to be true, really; and it is.

The also seem to treat intellectual properties not as an opportunity to create something enjoyable in a known world, but again primarily as hooks.  Get them into something based on the IP, even if it's broken and incomplete, then try to get them tied to the community, then string them along with promises that may or may not ever be fulfilled.

No, this is not the gaming culture I grew up with.  I was a gaming super-nerd.  I played in tournaments, won awards, even set a national record for one video game.  It really was all about the fun.  The companies wanted to make money, sure, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  They wanted to earn our money though by giving us the best game out there.  They competed with each other for our hard earned cash, and we'd pay whoever gave us the most entertainment value.

Now, signing up for an MMO is too often like shopping for a used car.  There so much fine print it's ridiculous, and once decoded, most of it seems to mean, "you give us cash, and we do whatever the hell we want, whether you like it or not."  I give games and companies that run these games a lot of space.  I don't touch them, and I'm happy to point out which ones seem to be going in that direction.

My main motivation for doing that is that I like gamers.  I've always liked gamers, and have spent much of my social time with gamers.  It'll be a bright day when game companies remember that gamers are interested in quality entertainment, not in buying an Edsel on the monthly installment plan.

Originally posted by PreCU

no. It's always been about money. Entertainment is a path to money. And I don't think the path ever changed either. What maybe changed is the fact that there are currently some crappy companies making dumb decisions while trying to entertain us in order to make money. But that probably didn't even change. You might just be noticing it more.

We're also a consumer base that will buy things based on what we want them to be rather than wait to find out what they are. A certain portion of that stems from the *need* to get games at release despite history proving for over a decade or so that the sensible approach would be to wait until someone else spends the 40-60 bucks to find out if it's decent or if it sucks.

Originally posted by stillkillin

video games suck now

i have not played anything good in the last 5 years outside swg pre-cu before it was stolen from us by $OE

i blame this casual gaming fad and yes it is a fad and the consoles

casual gamers are a ton of kiddies who need to go back to watching mtv or the wwe and consoles are the worst thing to ever happen to gaming

but i have seen a drop in gaming sales meaning the kiddies are going back to watching mtv and the wwe so i think we will have good gaming back in another year

Casual Gaming Fad? Consoles? These are the problems? I disagree it is profiteering money hungry whores making the games.... I remember games on the NES and SNES being 80 hours of gameplay.... some more some less... but if it was a 10 hour game people would not have touched it. I think perhaps you should think about this a little more. The problem is that too many companies have started to believe that graphics are everything and invest so much time and money making the game look great, but leave the gameplay to dwindle.

Part of the problem is also the elitist attitude between gamers, instead of supporting great ideas and embracing quality work. PC Gamers refer to console gamers as being a "Lesser species" and console gamers often thinking the pc gamer "Fat and living in moms basement". But lets face it, gamers come from all walks of life, does it matter if they choose to play on a console or PC? No, quit preaching that one "class" of gamer has caused this.... it lies upon all of us gamers. We have all accepted crappy games, and supported companies not worth supporting. If we want an end to this problem here is the solution.......

STOP buying overhyped crap games, make the companies improve what they are releasing. Buying games just because of the name is also to blame... for example Halo 1... Fun game, however as it progressed the quality also took a plunge Ie. look at Halo 3. As for MMO's I truely believe a try before you buy attitude is the best.

As you get older and start balancing a career, family, and entertainment you will find that a casual gamer is what you will become.

My 2 cents

xXSeraphielXx

Originally posted by xXSeraphielX

Originally posted by stillkillin

video games suck now

i have not played anything good in the last 5 years outside swg pre-cu before it was stolen from us by $OE

i blame this casual gaming fad and yes it is a fad and the consoles

casual gamers are a ton of kiddies who need to go back to watching mtv or the wwe and consoles are the worst thing to ever happen to gaming

but i have seen a drop in gaming sales meaning the kiddies are going back to watching mtv and the wwe so i think we will have good gaming back in another year

 

Casual Gaming Fad? Consoles? These are the problems? I disagree it is profiteering money hungry whores making the games.... I remember games on the NES and SNES being 80 hours of gameplay.... some more some less... but if it was a 10 hour game people would not have touched it. I think perhaps you should think about this a little more. The problem is that too many companies have started to believe that graphics are everything and invest so much time and money making the game look great, but leave the gameplay to dwindle.

Part of the problem is also the elitist attitude between gamers, instead of supporting great ideas and embracing quality work. PC Gamers refer to console gamers as being a "Lesser species" and console gamers often thinking the pc gamer "Fat and living in moms basement". But lets face it, gamers come from all walks of life, does it matter if they choose to play on a console or PC? No, quit preaching that one "class" of gamer has caused this.... it lies upon all of us gamers. We have all accepted crappy games, and supported companies not worth supporting. If we want an end to this problem here is the solution.......

STOP buying overhyped crap games, make the companies improve what they are releasing. Buying games just because of the name is also to blame... for example Halo 1... Fun game, however as it progressed the quality also took a plunge Ie. look at Halo 3. As for MMO's I truely believe a try before you buy attitude is the best.

As you get older and start balancing a career, family, and entertainment you will find that a casual gamer is what you will become.

My 2 cents

xXSeraphielXx

Some words of wisdom here I think.  Regarding sending a message to the MMO industry as consumers, I think the population ratio between quality games like WoW and busted to hell games like SWG and Vanguard at release screams a fairly clear message to companies like SOE.  Are they listening though?  It sure doesn't seem like it to me.  Tabula Rasa also had a rough release according to the guy who designed it, and what happened?  R.I.P.  I wonder if anyone learned anything from that one.
 

it is clear

in order for real gaming to come back we need to get rid of casual games and the consoles

Originally posted by stillkillin

it is clear

in order for real gaming to come back we need to get rid of casual games and the consoles

Well I'm old now lol, and have career responsibilities, family and other community involvement, so I like games that make room for casual players.
 

One game that I thought did this well was City of Heroes.  They have 8 hour Task Forces for the hardcore PC gamer, and 20 minute missions for old, busy people like me ^_^.

On the console point, I kind of agree, in a way.   I like my console games, mind you, but don't think they should be mixed with PC gaming until the consoles can handle things that my PC can.  My PC is still a lot smarter than most consoles for example, and I have a bazillion control options on the PC compared with what feels like a rather limited amount of options with most console controllers.  I just don't think they should mix platforms until they're more equal in capability.  If I feel that my PC capabilities are being squandered to accomodate console players, I'm going to feel that I'm getting less than I could and should from the service provider.

Really the only reason I can think think of that a service provider (SP if you don't mind) would do that is to maximize market exposure and profit--at the expense of the PC gamer.  Of course PC gamers aren't going to go for that, but some of the corporate fat cats calling the shots these days in the MMO world don't seem to have a clue.

This cluelessness and focus on nothing but the gamer's visa card (to hell with quality and customer support)  is really what I think needs to go; and I think that would solve the cross-platform issue too--that is until PCs and consoles are truly equal in processing and control power, if that ever happens.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

When did video gaming change so drastically?  I have to wonder what that's all about and whether or not the industry will ever find its way back to the roots that made it so popular.

I'll save you the wondering: no it won't.  As for when did it happen, that's harder to say, but whenever gaming became 'mainstream' is when it happened. 

The reason for that initial popularity (the late 80s/early 90s) was because an entire generation of kids grew up nerdy, and games (and early incarnations of the Internet) were their playground. 

Online gaming used to be almost exclusively the province of geeks and engineering types, and some would argue that those were the days.  Now, pre-pubescent girls and grandmothers are on mySpace, Twitter, and Warcraft, and the folks that used to think of the 'net and online gaming as a sort of refuge from the socialite masses they had to deal with in their real lives are seeing their favorite pastimes diluted because they've suddently become 'cool,' and hence an avenue to profitability.  There are more games now than ever before, and many of high quality, but there is also more shit, and something has very definitely been lost as the medium has gained social acceptance.

Too bad, but that's the way of things. 

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

When did video gaming change so drastically?  I have to wonder what that's all about and whether or not the industry will ever find its way back to the roots that made it so popular.

 

I'll save you the wondering: no it won't.  As for when did it happen, that's harder to say, but whenever gaming became 'mainstream' is when it happened. 

The reason for that initial popularity (the late 80s/early 90s) was because an entire generation of kids grew up nerdy, and games (and early incarnations of the Internet) were their playground. 

Online gaming used to be almost exclusively the province of geeks and engineering types, and some would argue that those were the days.  Now, pre-pubescent girls and grandmothers are on mySpace, Twitter, and Warcraft, and the folks that used to think of the 'net and online gaming as a sort of refuge from the socialite masses they had to deal with in their real lives are seeing their favorite pastimes diluted because they've suddently become 'cool,' and hence an avenue to profitability.  There are more games now than ever before, and many of high quality, but there is also more shit, and something has very definitely been lost as the medium has gained social acceptance.

Too bad, but that's the way of things. 

 

I think they still are about entertainment, but the "target" has changed as you say and that the good games and bad games are there also as you say. 

 In one game I play I am in  a guild of people where at 45 I'm ancient and they all like twitch fps and can game me under the table.  In another game I play similar in many respects but its more fantasy based I play in a guild where i am in fact the YOUNGEST.  The bulk of players are pushing 65+ and I play with one that is over 80.. they play the game differently of course and I have a night and day experience between the two games and guilds I'm a member of.   The 80 year old lady has just had her cataracts removed, can stil barely see , has slow reaction time and can't take part in large group events .  Actualy about half the guild is like that lol but it stil functions and we have fun.   In both cases both types of guilds exist in both games.  Obviously there is something for both types of people to enjoy in both games.   The population diversity of people behind the computers is something that truly amazes me.  I mean I'm playing computer games with people who are on one side of things young enough to be my kid on one and and grandmother materials (well not mine she would be over 100..) on the other end.  This could not be said about past games.  They were not kid friendly nor where they grandma friendly.  I dont think that part is a bad thing.   I just dont want to see the cost of these games skyrocket this is my issue.   However obiously the grandma who can't take part in huge group functions wants access to uber weapons and loot to.  She likes "epics" just as much as the 16 year old kids perhaps more.  IN fact at times she seems to play the kids under the table as far as staying power.    Gaming is now in flux and I hope when it adjusts itself that it is something I will still enjoy.  For the moment though I still enjoy it.  Yes its changed, but I find what is present now to be fun and of good quality as well its just not the same as it was when gaming first started out.    I enjoy my huge guild stuffed with young males filled with testosterone and my guild of old farts who look at me as the youngster and the games they are a part of lol.