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Originally posted by TheHavok You need to realize that warcraft lore also has a big emphasis on engineering and machinery. World of warcraft is an expansion to that warcraft lore. Also why the hell is your sig showing hitler's supporters and trying to make it a subtle connection to world of warcraft? Dont you have any sense of decency? You are pathetic. Nobody should glorify what Hitler did and think that Blizzard even remotely is similar. I think you're missing the point of his signature. All he wanted to say is that Popular does not equal Good. It's an extreme and, yes, Godwin-worthy example, but that is what his signature states, and nothing more. Glorify Hitler? Only if you think having 11 million subscribers glorifies WoW. Which is the point of this entire thing. "If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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Originally posted by Dioren I am a big fan of the Warhammer Table Top game. WH TT is all about army identities and their performance on the table top as ONE unity and identity. Magnificent miniatures game. Mythic just wanted the lore and screwed it up to a terrible bad Wow clone with mixed factions, and scenario play. A typical Mark Jacobs production: "I know it all". "I can beat it". Warhammer Lore couldn't be more screwed. As for 1983 and the origins of the best TT fantasy, this has nothing to do with a computer game in a different universe of "inner corruption". It suffices to read the Army books and novels of War TT and the novels and books of the Warcraft universe. I still love playing the TT fantasy game, but at least I see the big difference in both lores. War to me was by far the worst MMORP published in years. Too long to explain and not relevant in this thread. ----- But Wow has a very good indepandant Lore of its own, built up since1994 (1992 actually). A magnificent rules book just in front of me with a magnificent map of all the places we know now.
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There have been tanks and biplanes in ironforge since the games release. There are all manners of mechanized vehicles crashed all over the world in various zones. Choppers (both motorcycle and helicopter) are not a huge leap from the games original release. These items are right in line with the lore of the game and what was put in place during the games launch.
I personally would prefer they were not player mounts, but that doesn't change what the game was designed to have in its lore.
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Originally posted by Vetarnias I think you're missing the point of his signature. All he wanted to say is that Popular does not equal Good. It's an extreme and, yes, Godwin-worthy example, but that is what his signature states, and nothing more. Glorify Hitler? Only if you think having 11 million subscribers glorifies WoW. Which is the point of this entire thing.
Just to explain this for all: the Goldwin law: The law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."[2][3]. References to Godwin's Law often actually refer to a corollary of it which determines that the person who first makes an unwarranted reference to Nazi Germany or Hitler in an argument loses that argument automatically. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. ... For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, because although mentioning and trivializing Nazism in an online discussion, this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent. Your last sentence just confirmed the above. --- And ... the thread was about ... why are there mechanical things in Wow Lore .... |
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Originally posted by Zorndorf I am a big fan of the Warhammer Table Top game. WH TT is all about army identities and their performance on the table top as ONE unity and identity. Magnificent miniatures game. Mythic just wanted the lore and screwed it up to a terrible bad Wow clone with mixed factions, and scenario play. A typical Mark Jacobs production: "I know it all". "I can beat it". Warhammer Lore couldn't be more screwed. As for 1983 and the origins of the best TT fantasy, this has nothing to do with a computer game in a different universe of "inner corruption". It suffices to read the Army books and novels of War TT and the novels and books of the Warcraft universe. I still love playing the TT fantasy game, but at least I see the big difference in both lores. War to me was by far the worst MMORP published in years. Too long to explain and not relevant in this thread. ----- But Wow has a very good indepandant Lore of its own, built up since1994 (1992 actually). A magnificent rules book just in front of me with a magnificent map of all the places we know now.
Whether it's accepted or not is irrelevant. For that matter, most of what you said is irrelevant to what my reply was. If we're speaking lore wise, then you're dead wrong. If we're speaking purely game wise, then you're right. Warhammer hasn't implemented any PvE that would tie in with the rest of the game universe.
Edit: And the TT for both games are totally relevant for the games. It's the basis for the lore.
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Originally posted by Zorndorf I think you're missing the point of his signature. All he wanted to say is that Popular does not equal Good. It's an extreme and, yes, Godwin-worthy example, but that is what his signature states, and nothing more. Glorify Hitler? Only if you think having 11 million subscribers glorifies WoW. Which is the point of this entire thing.
Just to explain this for all: the Goldwin law: The law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."[2][3]. References to Godwin's Law often actually refer to a corollary of it which determines that the person who first makes an unwarranted reference to Nazi Germany or Hitler in an argument loses that argument automatically. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. ... For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, because although mentioning and trivializing Nazism in an online discussion, this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent. Your last sentence just confirmed the above. --- And ... the thread was about ... why are there mechanical things in Wow Lore .... Well, at least you didn't distort the definition of Godwin while copy-pasting it here. However, there is some debate over whether a reference to the Nazis immediately means losing the argument. What if the comparison is valid? I'm pretty sure that there is something in the scope of human activity being done that warrants a comparison to Hitler and/or the Nazis, so I'm not a subscriber to the "mention the Nazis and you lose the argument" theory. This is what Godwin himself is referring to in the second paragraph of the definition you reproduced above, and you get a more lighthearted example here. But more to the point: Is the comparison of WoW to the German election of November 1932 (where the Nazis obtained 11.7 million votes) warranted? To be honest, no, it isn't. Not only because of Godwin but because of historical and political factors which have nothing in common with a video game. However, we get the more apt comparisons to McDonald's or Britney Spears, and they are just ridiculed. Wasn't it to be expected that someone would bring out the Godwin card sooner or later, when every suitable point comparison had been dismissed and derided by the WoW fanboys? But McDonald's is a valid example. Any nutritionist will tell you that it's schlock (unless you go for the salad cop-outs, but how many McD's patrons actually do that?), yet the McDonald's-WoW comparison has been ruled out a priori by the fanboys. The salient point, however, needs to be addressed: "Popular" does not mean "good", and popularity does not make a "bad" product "good" for no other reason than because it is popular. This is tyranny of the majority at its basest -- "50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong". The fact that there are 50 million of them is no guarantee that they are right -- I'm guessing that this was the point of the Hitler signature. However, I don't subscribe to the opposing elitist view that says Elvis must be bad because 50 million fans love him. The lesson to be learned from it -- and I know that you, Zorndorf, won't bother -- is that 11.5 million players does not make a game "good"; nor does it make it "bad". Nor does it force every individual on the planet to shut up and love WoW, especially at a time when all other MMO games (save a few niche exceptions) seem to be going down the drain. As for your accusation that I'm just trying to end the thread by pulling a Godwin: Meh. Weren't you the one who did everything in your power to lock up any sign of negativity on these forums, for instance your petty inquisitions against anyone (such as myself) who disputed the greatness of your beloved WoW, even appealing to Stradden himself by mentioning how advertisers would pull out of a site that isn't 100% positive? "If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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to make a further point of vetarnias' last post, here's an example of my own. 500 years ago everybody in europe "knew" that the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe. everybody knew this therefore it was a "fact". but then it turned out they were wrong. like vetarnias said, having the majority of votes for 1 thing doesn't make it wrong, it doesn't make it right either. |
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Originally posted by midillusion There is a major difference, however, between the shape of the Earth and one's appreciation of WoW. The former can be proved scientifically -- and in fact that had been done by the Ancient Greeks long before the Middle Ages, with Eratosthenes giving a rather close estimate of the Earth's circumference in the 3rd century B.C. Blame religious obscurantism for what happened thereafter. In the case of WoW, what can we say? You like it or you don't -- purely a matter of taste. It can't be proved either way. For all my saying that the quests are repetitive, you might say that you just enjoy socializing in Orgrimmar with the occasional raiding on the side. Even something as technical as game performance varies from one person to another. For all the people who said, for example, that Age of Conan crashed all the time, I can say that although it was sluggish (as my computer was actually below system requirements) it only crashed once, and this very early on. So there is no universal standard in the case of a game by which to judge it -- no, not even popularity, or critical reception. "If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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Originally posted by Vetarnias
I disagree. There are plenty of examples in history of things that have been chosen as "best" by popular vote. The American system of belief is dependent almost totally on the opinion of the majority. We (among many other countries) even select our President by it, which is arguably one of the most important decisions to be made. People have an unconscious obsession with finding the very best, by whatever definition. When there is no objective way to decide, we revert to opinion. Since individually our opinions are irrelevant to each other, a statistical analysis is used. It could be argued that the statistics are skewed since WoW has reached a "critical mass" (which is, that many of the people playing it are only playing it because it is popular) but it's the best and only method we have to decide what is "best," by any definition. Since the majority like playing WoW over other games, it's statistically the one most likely to be enjoyable to any one specific person, and therefore the "best." It's nice to have an actual debate about this though, and see some real, intelligent responses instead of the usual "LOL PHAIL" garbage we see around here. |
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wow is just an chat room now with something to do on the side. |
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Originally posted by Aethios
I disagree. There are plenty of examples in history of things that have been chosen as "best" by popular vote. The American system of belief is dependent almost totally on the opinion of the majority. We (among many other countries) even select our President by it, which is arguably one of the most important decisions to be made. People have an unconscious obsession with finding the very best, by whatever definition. When there is no objective way to decide, we revert to opinion. Since individually our opinions are irrelevant to each other, a statistical analysis is used. It could be argued that the statistics are skewed since WoW has reached a "critical mass" (which is, that many of the people playing it are only playing it because it is popular) but it's the best and only method we have to decide what is "best," by any definition. Since the majority like playing WoW over other games, it's statistically the one most likely to be enjoyable to any one specific person, and therefore the "best." It's nice to have an actual debate about this though, and see some real, intelligent responses instead of the usual "LOL PHAIL" garbage we see around here. Fantastic post and I agree that it is nice to debate things like this instead of seeing the classical "WOW sucks" or "WOW is the bestest" arguments. A couple things I would like to comment on: For one, we often associate popularity as the best, i.e. the more popular something the better it is. This is a problem because popularity is, of course, measurable in some way. However, best is purely subjective and very difficult (if not impossible to measure). Further, better/best (from here on I will use quality to refer to this) has to be qualified in some way. So take any quality of any object and ask "Is it the best?" and the answers you will get are varied. For example, if I ask you which pizza place has the best pizza, you would probably want me to qualify that is some way, i.e. best crust, best sauce, best service, etc... The problem we have with WOW is that fans say its the best but they fail to qualify the statement. WOW is the best in some areas (no examples needed since they would all be my opinion). However, it is not the best in some areas either. This is why the common comparisons (WOW is Brittney Spears or WOW is McDonalds) fail so horribly. Even Brittney and McD's have there great aspects. Heck, in the South, McD's has the best fast food sweet tea one can purchase but that doesn't make me want to run out and eat mcD's food. I love WOW for a lot of reasons because it is the best game for me right now. It is a nice, casual, fun and enjoyable game that I can play with the family. That does not make it the best game on the market but it is the most popular game on the market. When someone says WOW is the best game, it is always good to qualify what they mean. When people ask me, I tell them like I like WOW and conversely, when people ask me about games I hate, I have my reasons as well. The market is amde up of people who play many different games and for many different reasons. The sad thing is that many who argue that WOW sucks, come to that conclusion because WOW isn't the best game for them but then take that and extrapolate out that WOW sucks period. That is a fallacy and an illogical argument since best is entirely opinion based. To settle the argument once and for all, what the MMO community needs to do is get a large group of people together (developers, game creators, major media, players, etc....) and look at the MMO genre like the AFI does with movies. They can take a lot of things into account including graphics, playability, sub numbers, amount of time played, story, lore, customer responses, customer service reactions, etc..... and then rank all of the major MMO titles to see where games rank. it would still be debateable but at least it would give a clearer indication where the "best" game stands. |
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Originally posted by Vetarnias
The McDonalds and Britney Spears analogy are fundementally flawed. Answer this: If wow = mcdonalds then what does [for exmample] Conan = ??? or any other mmo? Fine dining? Steak dinner? Moms home cooking? Why isn't every other mmo compared to a fast food chain since they are all fundamentally the same? What makes them the nutritional sound meal of awesomeness? Would you compare tic-tac-toe to grand theft auto and think that was a valid comparison? Both are games just like the above is both about food. You never see the comparison treated between similar products like burger king, because as "bad" as mcdonalds is, your nutritionist would tell you BK is far worse. Now the subject is about hamburgers as if it relates to video games. See how unrelated that is?
Maybe just because 2 items share one similar feature they don't make representative comparisons to each other.
Why not just make any analogy that has the mildest similarities and pretend it has merit on a discussion of video games. Why not call wow cancer since so many people die from that.
People only use these types of analogies to associate wow to something that has a negative stigma in todays society and then act as if that stigma applies equally to wow. Mcdonald is tagged with obesity and unhealthy life styles. Briteny for her crazy dramatic blowups or people thinking she is anything more than an ENTERTAINER aimed at teenagers. It is always some comparison to something in society that has a negative aspect associated with it, like hitler.
You never see anyone compare wow to google, ipods or something else that has the same level of popularity in their respective fields, but have a cool image associated with it. It really is just plain nonsense to make such comparisons.
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In another thread I've proven the Britney Spears analogy with Wow fails.... ....Simply because World of Warcraft was the FIRST mmorpg that was such a gigantic commercial succes. The King of its MMO generation in generating that massive amounts of supporters/players in the western society. Elvis is considered the King of Rock 'n Roll because of this. The Beatles are considered the Kings of 60's Pop Music. Wow = the equivalent of 30.000.000 sold copies in the western world each year (5.000.000 X 6 bi-monthly subscriptions). That's by far the MOST succesful single game of the last 30 years in the COMPLETE video game industry. No other game "sells" the equivalent of 30.000.000 copies in the western world EACH year. Britney Spears is just another commercial singer who doesn't have this impact in only one branche of the pop music. --- Ignoring these facts and just speak of "pffff just another million" is being based on pure subjective personal reasons which do not bring any contribution to the explanation of that success... and so ... are IRRELEVANT. Certainly not if you haven't experienced the game at all. No Raid expreience, No BG's experience, etc. Stating "some" like it and "some" not,... is stretching the truth in an extremely odd way because that "some" stands for the single most "sold" video game ever for the last 30 years. And by sold it is clearly stated "value in $$" in our western cultural society. If that equivalent of 1 billion dollars yearly revenu means ... you can deny it by having a banner of 'lies just plain lies", It shows indeed that as a last resort Wow haters refer to ...the Goldwin law (without knowing of course) and so just loose the discussion.
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Yes, WoW is a freak show... Mainly because of people. There's too many different twisted minded people playing it. :P |
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Originally posted by happytklz Sounds like we would be in a world with so many fun games to play we would have to invent some sort of time machine to have time to play them all. |
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Originally posted by Zorndorf
"If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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Originally posted by Daffid011
The McDonalds and Britney Spears analogy are fundementally flawed. Answer this: If wow = mcdonalds then what does [for exmample] Conan = ??? or any other mmo? Fine dining? Steak dinner? Moms home cooking? Why isn't every other mmo compared to a fast food chain since they are all fundamentally the same? What makes them the nutritional sound meal of awesomeness? Gaute Godager said steak. I once said elsewhere I'd compare AoC more to Red Lobster -- fast food that pretends it is somehow above that. At least WoW doesn't claim to be something it isn't; still doesn't excuse what it is, though. Would you compare tic-tac-toe to grand theft auto and think that was a valid comparison? Both are games just like the above is both about food. At least tic-tac-toe doesn't set off moral red flags in my head, like GTA does. You never see the comparison treated between similar products like burger king, because as "bad" as mcdonalds is, your nutritionist would tell you BK is far worse. Now the subject is about hamburgers as if it relates to video games. See how unrelated that is? I have no idea about BK versus McD. But the subject is about taste -- McDonald's isn't bad, but you don't need Morgan Spurlock to tell you that you shouldn't build your diet around it, and it's the general idea that they've sold I don't know how many gazillions of burgers that really matters. I will refrain from saying WoW is in bad taste, although those pop-culture references in the game nearly tip it over. Maybe just because 2 items share one similar feature they don't make representative comparisons to each other.
Why not just make any analogy that has the mildest similarities and pretend it has merit on a discussion of video games. Why not call wow cancer since so many people die from that.
People only use these types of analogies to associate wow to something that has a negative stigma in todays society and then act as if that stigma applies equally to wow. Mcdonald is tagged with obesity and unhealthy life styles. Briteny for her crazy dramatic blowups or people thinking she is anything more than an ENTERTAINER aimed at teenagers. It is always some comparison to something in society that has a negative aspect associated with it, like hitler. For the purpose of the analogy to be effective, the comparison point HAS to be negative. Otherwise it doesn't work, for the purpose is to demonstrate that something can be popular while being bad. Hitler being the extreme example, unless someone would like to claim that anything good came out of him. You never see anyone compare wow to google, ipods or something else that has the same level of popularity in their respective fields, but have a cool image associated with it. It really is just plain nonsense to make such comparisons. For the record, Google's near-monopoly in the search-engine market is worrisome, and I've always been wary of anything that came out of Apple. Just saying.
"If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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Originally posted by Aethios
I disagree. There are plenty of examples in history of things that have been chosen as "best" by popular vote. The American system of belief is dependent almost totally on the opinion of the majority. And in a way, that's a problem, and not a new one either. Tocqueville wrote about that in the 1830's when he visited the United States. We (among many other countries) even select our President by it, which is arguably one of the most important decisions to be made. Then what do we make of Hayes vs. Tilden, or Bush vs. Gore? Loser gets more votes, but the other guy becomes President. (And I'm coming from a country where 38% of the votes or so will get you an ironclad majority government, so we're subjected to that all the time.) People have an unconscious obsession with finding the very best, by whatever definition. When there is no objective way to decide, we revert to opinion. Since individually our opinions are irrelevant to each other, a statistical analysis is used. It could be argued that the statistics are skewed since WoW has reached a "critical mass" (which is, that many of the people playing it are only playing it because it is popular) but it's the best and only method we have to decide what is "best," by any definition. The only critical mass I'm willing to consider, as far as a game is concerned, is the one that is required for a game to be fully functional, e.g. how many people are needed for the economy, RvR, etc. to work. Since the majority like playing WoW over other games, it's statistically the one most likely to be enjoyable to any one specific person, and therefore the "best." If popularity were the only measurement of quality, then it would be so. But it's essentially meaningless, like who wins American Idol -- such as that guy I remember reading about a few years ago, who advanced to the finals (or semifinals, not sure) because he was a soldier at the time of the Iraq war. Nothing to do with his voice -- he was reportedly mediocre -- and everything to do with his uniform. Popularity means absolutely nothing because it is affected by so many other factors; is a blockbuster film better than an indie film that only played in the arthouse circuit? That's really what we're talking about here. It's nice to have an actual debate about this though, and see some real, intelligent responses instead of the usual "LOL PHAIL" garbage we see around here.
"If you experience performance issues playing Limousine Online, please update your chauffeurs." |
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WoW being original, and about fighting the evil within? Fanbois even you are not that deluded. Warcraft copied WH IP and there's no arguing that. Damn, original Warhammer FRP had a campaign called The Enemy Within which i've played when i was a kid... It was about how easily corrupted humans were by evil forces like Skaven and Chaos.It took players on an epic journey through the Old World. So saying that WoW is about fighting evil within and other bullshite is so funny... It's about grinding gear without which you're nothing, easy quests and raids a gaming equivalent of McDonald's. Kids and trailer park people entertainment...
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it is really amazing. i never knew that playing a videogame put a person in a category of maturity in comparison of a person playing another 'video game'. so basiclly under this way of thinking me and people i know in real life who play this game just because we might 'like it' are without a doubt bad, horrible people to you. i have stopped playing wow many times from complete bordom. big surprise huh? also i find alot of the people i encounter to be totally annoying and rude...even childish. do u think for a second that makes everyone playing a child just because its not hard to find brats? there are somany things i am unhappy about with wow that its foolish to start. because its just a game. none of them will ever be perfect. and from what ive looked at i cant find any better mmo for me and my gf and others. i also will not play a mmo with only humans. i find that plain and not worth paying a sub for. im drawn to dark elfs and i might add Wow has the most suited dark elves for myself that ive come across in any video game. moon worship. druids. its away from the normal ' sacrafice to the dark goddes' type dark elf setting. so unfortuantly wow has that hold on me. ive loved Night elves for years since Wc3 and i only started playing Wow because of them. so here is one example of a person who isnt playing because its popular or because i thinks it perfect because i obviously dont. i dont even care for raiding not because i find the killing boring(thats the fun part) but becaue i hate hearing people in vent ramble on as if anyone really gives a %$#@ about what they are saying. and im not trying to fight with the wow haters. just asking why its neccesary to generalize over something as trivial as a video game. also. if wow is so bad then what other fantasy setting mmo with dark elves do any of you suggest me try? and nothing older than wow i might add. ( i tried - eq2 - vangaurd - war-) be an adult please and if u reply to this try to actually suggest something maybe. |
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Originally posted by Omyicanfly
Yes. Stupiest thing I've ever seen. But I'm more of a fan of high fantasy, not the hodgepodge mess that has become Wow (ie. Blizzard has borrowed from about every fantasy/sci-fi IP out there). |
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Originally posted by Isaralas
Calling the Warcraft playerbase kids is real mature right? I'm sure it statistically correct thought. Based on my 3 years of playing (on and off) the vast majority of players fall in to two categories: they are kids or they act like kids. My reaching this conclusion has nothing to do with my level of maturity. It is what it is. |
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Originally posted by Zorndorf Please point out one single thing that makes the World of Warcraft IP unique from other fantasy IPs. One thing... |
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Originally posted by Omyicanfly
This is why I hate Gnomes, Im starting up WoW again because I miss my family on there. I always seem to come back to this game, even though there are Parts I dislike about the game. But I wish there was a way to kill off all the gnomes in this game I think Azeroth would be a better place without gnomes.
"So I slathered the bat with wesson oil and cream cheese." Johnny Tug |
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Originally posted by Thradar Please point out one single thing that makes the World of Warcraft IP unique from other fantasy IPs. One thing...
Fantasy motorcycles...
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