MMORPG.com Champions Online Correspondent Dana O'Shea writes this look at the lack of playable villains in th upcoming game from Cryptic Studios.

Heroes, but where are the villains?

Champions Online is made by Cryptic; Cryptic made City of Heroes; and City of Heroes made super-heroes come to life. I loved City of Heroes almost as much as I loved the expansion - City of Villains. I am not the only one; to this day CoH has a strong, loyal fan-base after several years. I have found that, though from time to time I left to pursue other games, I would come back to try out all the new toys that some new update had given us. At release City of Heroes was a long way from being the game that it is now. It took years to let it evolve and grow with the needs of the gamers. Cryptic treated us well. The biggest development along the way was surely the introduction of City of Villains. CoV appeals to the darker side of the super-hero fan with its sinister plots and lawless city. Yes, you will find police, but you will defeat them in battle right after you have taken care of the guys they were trying to arrest. Yet City of Villains added more than a new setting to show off your super-powers - it gave the do-gooders some quality evil to crusade against.

Read Where have all the Villains Gone?

I'm looking forward to playing this game, however they did take a step back. Arena pvp is weak at best. I know that CO is based off a IP but it did have very good villains so I believe they missed the boat here and clearly they've learned nothing from COH/COV. As you mentioned the Arena's were barely used, yet the fun was in the zones fighting the villains and or heroes.

So If this comes out before DC Universe i'll play it for a bit. However once DCU comes out, i'll be switching if it offers any kind of pvp beyond arenas.

A very nicely written article. One of the best I read on these forum for years.

I know some will say LotRo is an example of a good pve mmo without pvp, but I have to say I would prefer games with pvp at all times. I think mmo's without pvp are pointless. I also think no matter what some here will say that most players will agree.

Even Warcraft have some (lousy) pvp.

For this reason I am not going to play Champions Online.

Areanas give me nothing. I am looking for immersive open worlds, not games with mini-games in them. The more mini-games, arenas, battlefields, the more players tend to be removed from the game world.

Pvp was the reason I left COH. COV came waaaay too late. By then it wasn't fun any more. If COH had had COV and all the features of today I might have played longer, but the Villains were not working 100% because they were added much later.

Pvp is the excitement that you never know what happens next. Beating the AI in pve is easy. But players are more unpredictable.

Developers still take the easy route.. Even after reason big failures like AoC and War and the few that release something "new" like Darkfall releases a buggy mess.

Cryptic is going with that too. They forget the massive as well as the RPG aspect of mmos and in effect create linear games with little incentive to play after the first month and with little reason to pay 15-20$ a month.

On one hand mmo developers want millions to sign up for their games and at the same time release a hollow buggy mess... Something is missing here, incl. respect for their customers.

Yes, I have said it many times.  They need to have both.  This is one of the bad things (not having villains).  So far DCU has one thing better then CO.

I suppose pvp'ers (those that consider themselves hardcore) will stay away from CO because arenas aren't fun.  You're put into a controlled situation where participants are aware of each other and what to expect, in other words, a fair level playing field (skills or powers aside of course).  So its not enough to have the ability to attack other players but you need to gank and be ganked to have fun.   

I resent that you say cryptic treated us well, for a year after launch Emmert (probably mispelled) spent the time nurfing and balancing powers, no content nothing just nurfs.  Because of that mistake they haemorraged players, it could have been so much more.

Launching City of Villains saved a flailing game and for me its not till now when NCsoft has full control of CoX that I have come back.

Cryptic can build mmos but they do not understand their player base and they do not know how to look after a game.  I will be avoiding this game and will give ncsoft my money.

Also I only play Villains now in city of heroes I find the player base a bit more gritty and dirty than heroes who drop their internet when they see swearing.

There is nothing new in this game that adds to the genre there is no reason to play.

I prefer robbing banks to saving people :P

Originally posted by Spiritof55

I suppose pvp'ers (those that consider themselves hardcore) will stay away from CO because arenas aren't fun.  You're put into a controlled situation where participants are aware of each other and what to expect, in other words, a fair level playing field (skills or powers aside of course).  So its not enough to have the ability to attack other players but you need to gank and be ganked to have fun.   

If i'm going to play a MMO i'm looking for immersion. If i'm playing a Comic book style game i'd like the ability to challenge a hero or stop a villain. Stopping a PVE villain takes no skill. Once you know the AI it's game over. Fighting a human is different every time.

As far as arena's yeah your right they do provide a challenge in a 1 vs 1 setting. Great. However there is no immersion, it is just a mini game as another said. Immersion would be a Hero going into an area knowing or not knowing what Villain or bad guys will be attacking. With that you have strategy. Do I bring a friend? Do I go alone? Do I use brute force? Should I sneak around and watch my back? All of that is gone with arena only pvp.

Originally posted by Raevanhawk

Originally posted by Spiritof55

I suppose pvp'ers (those that consider themselves hardcore) will stay away from CO because arenas aren't fun.  You're put into a controlled situation where participants are aware of each other and what to expect, in other words, a fair level playing field (skills or powers aside of course).  So its not enough to have the ability to attack other players but you need to gank and be ganked to have fun.   

 

If i'm going to play a MMO i'm looking for immersion. If i'm playing a Comic book style game i'd like the ability to challenge a hero or stop a villain. Stopping a PVE villain takes no skill. Once you know the AI it's game over. Fighting a human is different every time.

 

As far as arena's yeah your right they do provide a challenge in a 1 vs 1 setting. Great. However there is no immersion, it is just a mini game as another said. Immersion would be a Hero going into an area knowing or not knowing what Villain or bad guys will be attacking. With that you have strategy. Do I bring a friend? Do I go alone? Do I use brute force? Should I sneak around and watch my back? All of that is gone with arena only pvp.

I agree with you, pvp for me was dark age of camelot, arenas are just a stupid esport and I hate blizzard for it too. I have had a hard time finding a game to come up to DAOCs standards tbh and Im still searching.

Oh will say this too non of champions ideas hold a candle to CoXs Architect system I cannot wait to find out what people create. If they put in proper base raiding into CoX it will be the cream on the cake.

Originally posted by Colonial

I resent that you say cryptic treated us well, for a year after launch Emmert (probably mispelled) spent the time nurfing and balancing powers, no content nothing just nurfs.  Because of that mistake they haemorraged players, it could have been so much more.

Really unfounded hatred torwards Jack is just stupid. 

Lets see Game Launched April 2004

Issue 1 (Edit June 2004) with The Rikti Crash Site, Peregrine Island, home of Portal Corp, and The Sewer Trial Room.

September 2004

Issue 2 with The Hollows and The Shadow Shard.

Its got to be Issue 3 right.  No one would say something so stupid where people wouldn't just go and look it up.

Issue 3 January 2004 New Zone: Striga Isle and EPIC archtypes (Peacebringer and Warshades).

The only real nerf that got everyone upset was Enhancement Diversification.  Which was the best thing for the game.  There was really no sense in playing anything other then a tank until this happened.  Which pretty much saved the game in the long run.

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? They could destroy entire spawns and then Regen Scrappers finally it was the Eden Nurfs that nailed the coffin in.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I was personally in the game from beta to launch and a few times inbetween, I know whats gone on and as I know insiders I will let you into a known fact.  They regretted the nurfs later but had to put a public show on, the reason why they regretted it is because what happened harmed business so much that they lost alot of revenue from players leaving.

Its a fact that Emmert dropped the ball and many many players know it, I just happen to post about it.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

Originally posted by Colonial

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? and Regen Scrappers think it was called the Eden Nurfs.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

Yeah I saw first hand.  I have been playing since city of heroes beta.  I have taken a total of 6 months off the game in the 4+ years its been out.  I was on the boards when Mc was around and when Rhyno was on.  I know the original plans were to choose ANY power which made several people leave after they changed that. 

So really stop trolling.

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Colonial

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? and Regen Scrappers think it was called the Eden Nurfs.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

 

Yeah I saw first hand.  I have been playing since city of heroes beta.  I have taken a total of 6 months off the game in the 4+ years its been out.  I was on the boards when Mc was around and when Rhyno was on.  I know the original plans were to choose ANY power which made several people leave after they changed that. 

So really stop trolling.

You posted after me questioning my information, I was answering to that, I am a troll on some occassions this time my friend you are the one living under the bridge (this post exempt)

Originally posted by Colonial

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? They could destroy entire spawns and then Regen Scrappers finally it was the Eden Nurfs that nailed the coffin in.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I was personally in the game from beta to launch and a few times inbetween, I know whats gone on and as I know insiders I will let you into a known fact.  They regretted the nurfs later but had to put a public show on, the reason why they regretted it is because what happened harmed business so much that they lost alot of revenue from players leaving.

Its a fact that Emmert dropped the ball and many many players know it, I just happen to post about it.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

Please stop trolling.  They FAR from regretted the nerfs.  They even commented that it drove 20k away yes but it saved FAR more then that.  Many MANY MANY (I can do it also) people know emmit saved the game.  Only the haters think he dropped the ball.

Really stop the trolling.

Originally posted by Colonial

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Colonial

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? and Regen Scrappers think it was called the Eden Nurfs.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

 

Yeah I saw first hand.  I have been playing since city of heroes beta.  I have taken a total of 6 months off the game in the 4+ years its been out.  I was on the boards when Mc was around and when Rhyno was on.  I know the original plans were to choose ANY power which made several people leave after they changed that. 

So really stop trolling.

 

You posted after me questioning my information, I was answering to that, I am a troll on some occassions this time my friend you are the one living under the bridge (this post exempt)

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Hmm, sounds like your first post to me.  Don't need to worry.  I won't discuss anything more on this topic.  I won't be suckered in by a troll.

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Colonial

So you saw first hand what they did to Fire Blasters? They could destroy entire spawns and then Regen Scrappers finally it was the Eden Nurfs that nailed the coffin in.  Enhancement diversification was nothing to what that did.

I was personally in the game from beta to launch and a few times inbetween, I know whats gone on and as I know insiders I will let you into a known fact.  They regretted the nurfs later but had to put a public show on, the reason why they regretted it is because what happened harmed business so much that they lost alot of revenue from players leaving.

Its a fact that Emmert dropped the ball and many many players know it, I just happen to post about it.

I know what went on, don't treat me like a fool troll.

 

Please stop trolling.  They FAR from regretted the nerfs.  They even commented that it drove 20k away yes but it saved FAR more then that.  Many MANY MANY (I can do it also) people know emmit saved the game.  Only the haters think he dropped the ball.

Really stop the trolling.

Brian, by your theory and information loosing 20 thousand subscribers at the games peak was a smart business move? I'm afraid my friend you have your head in the sand and replying to you is like shooting a puppy but you really leave me no choice.

I would like to add in my opinion city of heroes/villains is a good game and the invention system and the new architect system developed by ncsoft is great.

Getting back on topic... I was looking forward to CO until now. I don't see any reason to move from CoX. I might take a second look at DC, but CoX keeps improving an already good game. And on the topic of PvP... The constant grinding and bunny bashing quests in most MMOs get old quickly. PvP is what makes the game interesting and is the only real end game once you max level.

Reno

Originally posted by Reno0513

Getting back on topic... I was looking forward to CO until now. I don't see any reason to move from CoX. I might take a second look at DC, but CoX keeps improving an already good game. And on the topic of PvP... The constant grinding and bunny bashing quests in most MMOs get old quickly. PvP is what makes the game interesting and is the only real end game once you max level.

Reno

Truth! Although still looking forward to DC Universe if done right, atleast for a change anyways.

Im looking forward to Aion and hope that ncsoft do a multisub so I can get my super fix as well.

/ignore troll  

Back to the Subject.

I am not a big DC fan, DC online has its own share of problems (FPS type and Real money equalling items in game) but it definately gone up in stock because you can start off with Villains.  For that reason alone I will try it and it will have a shot in taking my money instead of Champions Online.

Delete.

Originally posted by Manchine

/ignore troll  

Back to the Subject.

I am not a big DC fan, DC online has its own share of problems (FPS type and Real money equalling items in game) but it definately gone up in stock because you can start off with Villains.  For that reason alone I will try it and it will have a shot in taking my money instead of Champions Online.

Yes Brian ignore the troll just don't pass any mirrors!

On topic: SOE worry me more than cryptic, DC is out the window for now unless theres some genius gameplay trick to it that will attract me in. At least it has villains though.

I will be trying out CO, and am anxiously waiting on it. As for DC, I played EQ1, then SOE ruined it; so tried EQ2, SOE failed again; but since I am a sucker for a shiny new MMO, I tried Vanguard, EPIC FAIL. Also both Vanguard and EQ2 continue to have issues and SOE just keeps pumping out content as opposed to bug fixes. So I will stay far away from DC, sadly not even sure I will try it out.

Played City of Heroes through most of beta and for 3 and half years following. I pretty much let my subscription drop when Cryptic sold off to NCSoft. So, I've seen the ins and outs of all that they did as they did it.

Frankly, I'm perfectly happy with the direction Champions is headed. Too much time and effort was spent in City of.. balancing classes for a pvp that perhaps 20% of the population ever engaged in, and only a fraction of that stuck with regularly. The City of Villains, City of Heroes enmity is not a major component of the game, but is limited to small conflict zones where very few people go to battle it out.

You see, it turns out, that just like most level-based games with player choice in powers, or in most cases these days Feats, certain combinations tend to beat out all others. This takes a game that is supposed to be all about choice, and reduces it to a scant handful of choices.  To try and fix the fact that one class with one build can beat any other, changes must be made, changes that will earn the cry of "Nerf!". Yet, it's a whack-a-mole game that never ends. Until you either reduce every class to a Quake space marine, with zero difference between them and every other player, or simplify the power system down to a set of identical powers and defenses with different effects, a truly mind-numbing prospect, you will NEVER have"balance".

I think Cryptic realizes that the effort required for pvp on the part of developers, along with the serious impact the needs of pvp has on the characters in the game whether they want to pvp or not, does not deliver a proportionate return in terms of subscribers who make their decisions purely on the presence of pvp play.

In a pve-only world, the developers are freed up to be much more creative without worrrying that adding a smokey induced coughing effect at the end of a smouldering fire attack might give a flame-based hero too much of an advantage in pvp.

Or to put it another way, if everyone who played CIty of Heroes playes Champions... except for the 8 people per server who lived for pvp... I think Cryptic will be perfectly happy.

The reason I quit CoX was the lack of good open PvP. I was waiting for this game to come out cause I thought that Cryptic would learn from its mistakes. and now what' Again Arena??? Again a launch with only a faction?? SHAME ON YOU CRYPTIC!!!!

Just glad this got some reading :)

And huge thanks to Draccan for the kind words!