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tombear81
Novice Member
Joined: 3/17/07
"Meeza spullon and gramma is ou me ma taut me. Yousa no write be nasta to ma speelin n a grumma !" |
3/08/09 3:29:57 PM#76
PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive of one another if you build them in from the beginning. What is not good is bolting PvP onto a game which was PvE in origin but the company are after more subscriptons. Its the same argument with themepark and sandbox. Elements of both can be in one single game. Most people veer between such playstyles anyways. |
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3/08/09 3:59:58 PM#77
Originally posted by Arndur Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours. /endsarcasm *rolls eyes* "Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria "The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci |
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Moaky07
Advanced Member
Joined: 2/24/07
MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry. |
3/08/09 6:53:08 PM#78
Originally posted by ArcheusCross Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours. /endsarcasm *rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that. I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties. I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale. What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us. PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around. For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides. No thanks Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored* I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em. Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games. Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget. |
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3/09/09 1:05:11 AM#79
Originally posted by Moaky07
Yeah lets do just that. I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties. I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale. What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us. PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around. For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides. No thanks Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored* I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em. Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama. Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money. Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that? |
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3/09/09 1:16:01 AM#80
Originally posted by tombear81
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence! |
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3/09/09 1:40:10 AM#81
To the OP.. Welcome to the world of MMOFPSRPG.. Yeah I miss the good ole days and I still play DAoC, AO and Eve. The mmorpg scene went to shit after the release of World of Warcraft entered our lives. SWG Pre-Cu was the best game I ever played and still have the most memories in. WoW definetly kicked ass the 1st year of release, but went to total garbage (imo) when burning crusade was released. With the introduction to console gamers like the xbox and playstation, corporate companys want more money by attracting that type of clientel to the pc gaming scene as well. I miss a good ole fashion mmorpg, but apparently we have to change with the times, because the mmo's we grew up with, would not stand a chance in todays market. Companys are looking for the next big thing, will it happen anytime soon? I think it will probably be a mmorpg game we all under estimated. Heres to the future of mmorpgs! GOODLUCK! |
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3/09/09 1:43:07 AM#82
Originally posted by ChicagoCub
The most successful game of all time is a PvE game at its core? Hmmm.....now could that have anything to do with the fact that........ NEARLY EVERY MMO IS A PVE GAME!!! We only have one decent mmo which was originally built around PvP and thats EVE......and even that game has a load of PvE elements to it. Oh and I suppose you could chuck Ultima Online in there as well which is over 10 years old.....but thats also built oroginally as a PvE game. Every other mmo which has PvP in it has been originally designed as a PvE game. The PvP elements were just added on as an extra......which is why PvP has such a bad rep in mmos because its always crap and it doesnt work. What we need is a developer to build a game that incorporates both playstyles into its game so well that people forget about comparing the two. The only reason people are choosing one side or the other on these forums is because all the games we have been playing have been deliberately keeping its PvE and PvP elements seperate. You're a human and you've been given a quest from an npc to go and ransack that temple up in the mountains? Ok fair enough. Lets go up to the temple then. Oh whats this? Its got a goblin tribe living in and around it. Lets start killing them. You're a goblin and an npc in your village just started giving out a new quest that wasnt available before. Whats this? He says that the village scouts have just got word of an impending expedition being sent out from the human city down in the lowlands. It seems they are interested in our holy temple. Better make sure none of them get inside and steal any of our shinies. Of course if there were no goblin players near the shrine when the human player/s took that quest then it would be a straight forward PvE experience. However if any goblin players were near the shrine and got wind of what the pesky humans were up to then they might try and organise the temples defence. Then again both sides might be able to come to some kind of compromise which could lead to alternative peaceful solutions to the quests. How would that not be fun? Pure PvE game? Stuff that! Pure PvP game? Stuff that too! Mixture of both? Hmmm a realistic roleplaying game! Now that would be a first! |
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3/09/09 2:08:27 AM#84
Originally posted by popinjay
Nice to know you do everything full forced! ;) It's not about some game companies adopting ideologies and then making decisions about that. just as the music companies didn't adopt any sort of ideology when they changed gears time and time again. It is most definitely about the audience (players in this case) and what the game companies sense as to what they want. Just as you say. but it most definitely is about how humans are. They get tired of one thing, look for something new, that becomes the status quo and then the cycle continues. So you have the music of the 50's rock and roll which is different from the music of the 40's and incorporates elements of blues and jazz. Then it evolves to music of the 60's which is different as it doesn't involve the simplistic rock rhythms and harmonies, starts dealing with more serious subjects as early rock subject matter is rather direct and simple. Then unrest happens, a lot of social issues and the music of the 70's is born. The 80's is a reaction to the 60's and 70's and almost a revisitation of the sensibilities of the 50's with more fun subject matter and musical materials. But this can't sustain itself and you get another era starting in the 90's with more serious music, grunge, etc. rap of the 70's and 80's starts to widen it's audience. But with games it's more difficult because it's very young. There are technical hurdles to overcome. Still the gameplay continues, evolves and then reacts to what has gone before. You will not see pvp games as being a dominant force at all going forward and the death of PvE. Especially since the dominant games at the moment are PvE. Wow is not going to die any time soon. Neither are EQ II and LOTRO. To be honest, besides Lineage II in the east (as it doens't have nearly the same popularity here) Eve is the reigning pvp game. All these upcoming pvp games have yet to prove themselves. What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP. And I will ammend my initial statement that you were completely wrong. I apologize. What I should have said and what is more correct (and what I should have stated in the first place) is that I completely disagree with you. |
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Well, FFXI was a PvE based game, that had practically NO pvp in it. There was a small area that was barely used. That did not hurt the games subscriptions over the years and very few subscribers complained to Square Enix to put more of it in. That is a classic example of a PvE game not needed any PvP. So is LOTRO. So is EQ2. Vanguard, if it wasn't so half baked, would have not needed ANY pvp in it; the vast overwhelming majority who signed up wanted to A) Craft B) Group C) Raid. Because it was such a huge world, they wouldn't have needed it. Those games have some Pvp in it, but do not need it to survive. I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
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3/09/09 3:52:20 AM#86
I would liek to make a game similar to a sandbox game like Darkfall without the PVP.... Let mobs loot your equipment, use it against you, let the mobs build their own camps, and as you clear out a mob, they re-locate.. etc.... Use the traditional RPG/FPS real time combat style that it uses, get rid of the targeting, etc.. Get rid of the level grinding and the class based systems as well..... Allow players to train in any skill, tame pets, hire NPC's, train in any skills they wish, build cities, hire guards, build boats, use them anyway to their advantage, by attacking mobs on land etc, let people go out and tame their mounts or buy them from a stable, etc, etc...... Disable the PvP, and you would probably have the greatest PvE game of all time... Add in PvP, and you get a game like Earthrise, Darkfall, or Mortal Online..
The MMO industry started off with sandbox games such as UO, PvP was not a feature in this game, as it was a social experiment, it was not intended to be a hardcore PvP game, it was meant to be a realistic version of a virtual world, there was full loot + you could attack and kill anyone, but that was not a feature, the freedom and player choice of UO was the feature... I wish someone would make another UO, I really would, just better, better as in FPS/RTS combat, naval combat, city building and a better world.. UO has it down though, you build a house right there on the map, customize it anyway you want to, and decorate it, it is the only game I have see where you DROP your items on the ground, and you can lock them down in your house so they don't go anywhere, you lock down anything from chests, furniture, anything you can get your hands on, and you can craft and pick up any furniture peice, etc, and it goes right into your backpack... From what I heard, Link Realms is like this....
www.linkrealms.com is going to apparently be a game where the players completely shape the world, everyone gets their own realm and in your realm, you build a house, and shape your realm anyway you want to with a map editing tool, and the monsters and NPC's in the game from what I hear are dynamic, they will raid your lands and your houses, you build forests, mountains, dungeons and mines with your map editing tool, and you set the rules of your realm, wether it has PvP, or full player loot, or none at all, and all the realms are linked together and are non-instanced, and there is no load screens, the game is also suppose to have many, many skills, in a classless, non-level based world... If Link Realms is like UO with better animation + graphics, and even more sand, then count me in..... I don't play a game for PvP, in Darkfall I wanted to be a merchant sailor, and that is exactly what I am!! I have no combat skills with my character, no magic, so far my mining is 70 and I got my weaponsmithing and armorsmithing skills to 60, in a game such as WoW, I am forced to pick this class, I have to level my character through PvE, in a game such as Darkfall, you level your character just by swining your weapon, shooting your arrow at a wall or shooting your spell into the sky, can raise your skills... Very realistic..... So on topic with WoW again, I pick a class and I am like, this sucks, why can't they make some kind of class for just crafting skills?? And then lol and behold, you can only pick two professions when you get to that point....
I guess I should say, I like PvE, I love it, I even like PvP, and I like crafting even more, which is why I play UO still, I consider UO the ultimate PvE/PVP game over any other... Even in its current WoWish state.. You can war guilds, join factions, fight for control over certain cities in factions which gives you benefit, fight your own guild members, etc.. It is not made of mini games, you do not have to grind to the end game content, cause there is no END GAME content in UO, games I have seen such as WoW have less content at the end game, even Age of Conan, they have no content.... UO on the other hand, has content, and it is all right there in front of your face, and there is so much you can do, so much possibilities, every day, something new, this is how you make content, so far UO is the only game that did it right throughout the years.... Sad to say, Trammel ruined it, but they still did a nice job with some features.. |
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3/09/09 4:02:32 AM#87
Originally posted by popinjay If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW.. |
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Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
EDIT: wrong game listed^^ |
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3/09/09 4:47:53 AM#89
Originally posted by popinjay
I heard that Asheron's Call was very good int he beginning... Fury was a very laughable game, and it didn't appeal to myself or other people I knew who enjoyed PvP, it basically came down to whoever could button smash the fastest, wins.. I had to buy a new keyboard after playing that game because I messed it all up... In PvP, you need twitched based combat, this means real time combat, in either first or third person and first person shooter when it comes to spells and arrows, etc.... I hate grinding, I hate button smashing, I do not like the click and watch, I like doing everything manually like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, or Fallout 3, the combat is more immserive this way, more fun, less grindish and it takes more player skills as you can block, dodge, etc, and it is all done manually.. This is how combat in a MMO should be, and this is what makes the "combat" in a game should work and it is rarely seen in a MMO.. If WoW had tactical, skill based combat, wether PvP or PvE, it does not matter, if this game allowed me to be a straight crafter and just work up my skills without leveling, if they had the kind of Real Time and FPS combat, then I would be all down for WoW... But I am not, it is not my kind of combat, the click and watch, spam a few spells, it is boring to me for some reason, I lose control of my character.. It is the same reason why I was never into the Final Fantasy games.. |
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Moaky07
Advanced Member
Joined: 2/24/07
MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry. |
3/09/09 10:14:19 AM#90
Originally posted by neonwire
Yeah lets do just that. I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties. I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale. What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us. PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around. For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides. No thanks Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored* I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em. Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama. Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money. Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that?
Dont even throw that irrational chit my way pal...I am not the one throwing hissy fits to get my gaming style included into games like the simmers. Adventure gamers wanna group or raid for their equipment. Thus there is no need for crafters for weapons/armor/etc. So then where is Uncle Owen gonna get his content? If Adventures arent buying, and arent required to, then it isnt going to leave much for him to do. EQ hit trades perfect IMO. Secondary skill that everyone has. Makes a few good things, but nearly everything of importance comes from fighting/questing. Like I indicated...simmers match up with PvP games. PvP spend their time fighting each other...thus it doesnt matter if they are buying their gear...especially if they are getting it looted constantly. Totally different in a PvE game, where a person slowly builds his gear by camping various zones/raids. So I will say it one more time...traders match up with PvP games...they dont belong in PvE games. If you are talking minor trades ala EQ then yeah it works...but the second trader becomes a full blown game unto itself, it no longer has a place in a loot oriented game. Simmers are a niche in the market...but think they deserve equal treatment in all games. Sorry...I dont subscribe to that notion. There are games catered to them, or in production currently...let them go play those, and leave the PvE games alone. Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget. |
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3/09/09 10:39:59 AM#91
PvE isn't going any where. A lot of us have just been bored with it since, well, since the old days even, because no game has ever (IMO) done a good job with PvE. It's either been pointless, repetitive mob grinding or pointless, repetitive questing. The community never has a collecitve goal or motivation for going out and slaughtering wolves other than xp. The closest any one has come to this is just having a really good faction system. But, thats about it... And, like we've said many times before, PvE is too damn easy/predictable. That's why theres such a shift towards PvP, because people want a thrill and a challenge. |
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You said you played Horizons. Did you find it to be a well made game, or one that had coding or other problems? Is it possible it failed not because it was a PvE game, but simply because it was a badly MADE game?
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3/09/09 12:09:59 PM#93
Originally posted by popinjay
Yes but those are two games. Out of how many? You are correct in that WoW doesn't need pvp. They didn't have battle grounds when it launched though they did have pvp servers. And Final Fantasy most likely doesn't need pvp because it's final Fantasy. Take WoW and Final Fantasy and we can see that people will play them for their names or IP alone. But I believe that some form of pvp needs to be present to at least give players who enjoy pvp but are not interested in a pvp game some outlet of play. Even if its just dueling. |
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The Final Fantasy MMO is really nothing like the Final Fantasy series. It's not even based on it really, there are only some things that are related (like chocobos) and only some things included from the line (Bahamat). It's somewhat like how each Final Fantasy console game is not wholly connected to the previous game, but takes place in a different time. The name is there, but the storyline is very different. So anyone buying it and expecting/wanting to have it follow along the consoles storylines and combat style, probably didn't stick around very long.
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3/09/09 2:30:31 PM#95
Originally posted by neonwire
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence! I'm glad to see there are other people like me. I was beginning to think I was some form of mutant gamer who enjoys aspects from all of the "factions" (as you put it) of the MMORPG world. Granted over the year I have begun to lean towards the more difficult games but I try to keep an open mind. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." |
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3/09/09 4:35:38 PM#97
PvE MMORPGs will still be made, even not being a fan of them myself look at how WoW still got a huge population. The smaller amount of similar games on development can be explained by how hard is to compete directly with the leader of the sub-genre. A fresh popular PvE centric MMORPG will have to surpass WoW in so many ways, and it's not an easy task I would say. But this doesn't mean no company will ever produce a PvE MMORPG anymore. PvP games if well made can give players endless entertainment with sieges, massive battles and so on (however cheating on a competitive environment is far harder to tolerate if compared to PvE ones), requiring less focus on creating dungeons, bosses not to mention scripted battles get very dull after people have figured the patterns. Expansions are necessary for keeping players on the loop. Also, fantasy PvP centric MMORPG games featuring higher risk and reward have a niche without any games to fill the gap, thus why so many companies are trying to get this slice of the pie with titles as Darkfall, Mortal Online and others. |
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3/09/09 11:29:54 PM#98
Fact is, PvP belongs to fps and fps only. It is wrong to make a RPG game, made for simple PvE and intensly fun grouping PvP. Let us look at it like this, if i was looking to blow of some heads, or kill someone I would be playing Call of Duty 4. For now lets play some diablo 2 and try to tell developers the mistake they're making. 
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