Originally posted by Torik

I most definetly enjoy things that I worked harder for.  I just do not see how gambling on the outcome is going to increase the challenge.  If I want to climb a mountain, it will not get higher just becasue I bet someoen $1000 that I could do it.

Climbing a mountain is an excellent analogy, but you did it wrong.  It has nothing to do about gambling and everything about the challenge.

On almost any mountain there is more than one way to the top. (i.e, via the north face vs the west face)  One way is always considered the "easier" route, (even if its still quite hard) and other routes are considered so challenging that they've never been successfully conquered.

Yet people keep trying the more challenging routes until eventually they've mastered them.

And other folks would take a helicopter to the top (if they actually could) and skip all that stupid challenge stuff. (think gold buyers)

MMO's are the same. Some players want to get to the top (or end game) in a route more challenging, because it will be considered far more of an accomplishment.

Anyone can get to the Southpole in a chopper, but getting there by dogsled? People still try to do it today, even though there are more modern, easier ways to reach it.

I never made it past level 55 in Lineage 2.  But I have respect for the many people who toughed it out and got to 74 or whatever (honestly, not by botting) and even got more advancements beyond. (to this day I regret not sticking it out longer, I switched over to WOW)

And to those who think it was a grind to find a camp of mobs and battle them in group combat, you are wrong.  Someone mentioned grinding trees in DAOC.  I loved doing that, it was great, and I made tons of friends of everyone I pugged with there.

I recall camping redcaps on Mordred with my guild of 35 or so and still having to be careful not to over pull or we'd get rolled.  We fought, we laughed, made fun of the puller when he got us killed, and always had to keep a watch out for gank squads that would try to hit us in mid pull.  It was the best of times IMO, and I've not really experienced anything quite like it, not even in EVE. (too easy to solo in EVE sometimes)

I did experience some of that same feeling in WOW when we used to run the 40 man raids, in the early days, was good times, especially when there weren't any guides on how to kill Ragnaros and we were trying to figure it out on our own.

Later I ran BWL following guides and while fun, it still lacked some magic because all we did was try to follow the script. (but at least there were fewer trash mobs in the way)

To be sure, WOW had some good moments, but none that compared to the fun I had with some early games like Lineage 1/2, DAOC and Shadowbane.

i sometimes feel that people remember their old mmo days with rose tinted glasses on, i remember my daoc days playing with my university buddies forming groups then grinding for 20 hours straight.

begging to get into fins group getting on lists for final push to 50, the darkness falls raids where a load of you went off to kill legion.

I played daoc up to very nearly the end and by that time i had done everything in the game, lgm crafters, multiple 50's high realm ranks raided every major dungeon and boss + dragons.

The game is still excellent but i feel that its one of those games best experienced with friends NOT as a new experience. I went back after all my friends had stopped playing for one last attempt at fun. And frankly even with a buffbot and multiple mls the game was lacking the drive towards RVR only works with a set group of friends who know what they are doing.

I do somtimes feel that modern mmo's have dumbed down the whole genre they got rid of a lot of down time in mmo's and i think that lost some of the charm. During down time you chatted and got to know your fellow players. Now the game play is so fast and furious you cant really get to know your buddies.

as for Mythic and screwing up warhammer ill put it down in terms that folks can understarnd "scenarios killed the game for me". why you ask scenarios are great fun and fast ways to level. thats the problem everyone is in scenarios because it is the fastest way to level. I feel that mythic had a very very good plan but somewhere along the way they lost it.

I think what we are all waiting for is a next generation MMO one which will truely push the boundaries back. NOT basically a WOW clone which some bizaro back story but effectivly the same "quest to cap" design mentality.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Waterlily

I'm disregarding your opinion because you know absolutely nothing about current EQ or old school EQ.

Not every class should be able to solo, that's your opinnion but that wasn't what EQ was about at all. If Verant wanted every class to solo they would have, the reason they didn't is so you would group.

If you wanted to solo you could, you picked a solo class, so your point is moot.

 

The instances have been in EQ for years, since 2002. WoW based the instance model on EQ.

Seriously, your post was garbage.

edit: I can't spell

 

It was released in 1999 and I started as a beta tester. I don't see ur opinion as more valid and I will disregrad yours too.

If you can't see that WOW takes the EQ trend and does everything BETTER .. then too bad for you. The market has moved on as demonstrated succinctly by all the numbers. You can wallowed in the old glorious days as much as you want and we move on.

Oooh i was gonna simply reply to this thread but bah,,, WOW is nothing like old school RPG not even close to EQ  ya WOW fanboi. What WOW did was scalp the good ideas from games gone by which wasnt necessarily a bad thing but it surely wasn't creative by any means.  I do give credit to Blizzard for spying on other games and making nice improvments from games currently existing. WoW is the king of easy mode. Every single class can solo to max level with little to know effort like old school MMO's. What WOW did was attract first time gamers and make it so easy that grandma could play it with little thought. Us veterans that have been on the internet since before inception do NOT want easy mode.

 To the OP, I've played nearly every title ever released. I'm going back to DAOC at the end of this month because there is NO better realm vs realm game in the world.  Old games are gaining popularity. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

The thing is that puts a nail in this coffin is arguing taste. There is no arguing taste.

You can't tell people what to like or dislike. If 11 million people want a MMORPG that is snooze inducing easy then that's their prerogative. Calling it "better" is a matter of taste. I call it aweful you call it the golden goose. That's where the argument ends

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Torik

I most definetly enjoy things that I worked harder for.  I just do not see how gambling on the outcome is going to increase the challenge.  If I want to climb a mountain, it will not get higher just becasue I bet someoen $1000 that I could do it.

 

Climbing a mountain is an excellent analogy, but you did it wrong.  It has nothing to do about gambling and everything about the challenge.

On almost any mountain there is more than one way to the top. (i.e, via the north face vs the west face)  One way is always considered the "easier" route, (even if its still quite hard) and other routes are considered so challenging that they've never been successfully conquered.

Yet people keep trying the more challenging routes until eventually they've mastered them.

And other folks would take a helicopter to the top (if they actually could) and skip all that stupid challenge stuff. (think gold buyers)

MMO's are the same. Some players want to get to the top (or end game) in a route more challenging, because it will be considered far more of an accomplishment.

Anyone can get to the Southpole in a chopper, but getting there by dogsled? People still try to do it today, even though there are more modern, easier ways to reach it.

I never made it past level 55 in Lineage 2.  But I have respect for the many people who toughed it out and got to 74 or whatever (honestly, not by botting) and even got more advancements beyond. (to this day I regret not sticking it out longer, I switched over to WOW)

And to those who think it was a grind to find a camp of mobs and battle them in group combat, you are wrong.  Someone mentioned grinding trees in DAOC.  I loved doing that, it was great, and I made tons of friends of everyone I pugged with there.

I recall camping redcaps on Mordred with my guild of 35 or so and still having to be careful not to over pull or we'd get rolled.  We fought, we laughed, made fun of the puller when he got us killed, and always had to keep a watch out for gank squads that would try to hit us in mid pull.  It was the best of times IMO, and I've not really experienced anything quite like it, not even in EVE. (too easy to solo in EVE sometimes)

I did experience some of that same feeling in WOW when we used to run the 40 man raids, in the early days, was good times, especially when there weren't any guides on how to kill Ragnaros and we were trying to figure it out on our own.

Later I ran BWL following guides and while fun, it still lacked some magic because all we did was try to follow the script. (but at least there were fewer trash mobs in the way)

To be sure, WOW had some good moments, but none that compared to the fun I had with some early games like Lineage 1/2, DAOC and Shadowbane.

 

 

As usual, great post.  This pretty much sums up why I miss the true immersion and fun in MMO gameplay; it was the interaction whether forced or by choice because it was benefitial.

A lot of responses have been to "I don't like forced grouping" and while forced grouping is not something I'm fond of, I hate "anti-grouping" games even more so.  Since it seems to be common in this thread, I'll use WoW as an example.  It is and has become even more so a solo game with no real benefits to human interaction.  Why group with someone to quest while leveling when it just cuts experience and everything has been made easy to solo?  Why look for a top buyer for your tons of ore you spent hours mining in some dark hole for when you can just undercut and slap it on the auction house?  Why do an instance for gear when you'll just out grow it so fast the reward vs time ratio is almost non-existant?

While this is more noticable during the level progression and some will question why that matters, I have to point out that so many seem obssessed with this false ideal of "end-game" and whatever it stands for.  To be playing in the MMORPG genre and to be focused on such a fruitless idea is beyond my comprehension.  The reason to continue playing these types of games is the replayability factor and the progressive achievements you make along the way not to focus on "how to beat the game as quick as possible" because that, in a sense, IS NOT POSSIBLE.  There is no "definitive end-game" until you select the cancel subscription button and why someone would want to rush towards that is beyond me.

And here is the kicker.

You all who love the new MMOs like WoW are set, you have your game and even multiple others that can fit the bill. WoW, EQ2 and LoTRs are more or less the same game so you have plenty to choose.

Those of us who are looking for something else would really like some kind developer to make us the game that we are looking for. Make us EQ again but with a new world and maybe some shinny new graphics.

You guys have plenty of games, if we want our experience again we are forced to play a dated game that most of us have already put years into and arent that exited about going back. Not to mention that those games are not even what we are looking for anymore for the most part.

Originally posted by safwd

And here is the kicker.

You all who love the new MMOs like WoW are set, you have your game and even multiple others that can fit the bill. WoW, EQ2 and LoTRs are more or less the same game so you have plenty to choose.

Those of us who are looking for something else would really like some kind developer to make us the game that we are looking for. Make us EQ again but with a new world and maybe some shinny new graphics.

You guys have plenty of games, if we want our experience again we are forced to play a dated game that most of us have already put years into and arent that exited about going back. Not to mention that those games are not even what we are looking for anymore for the most part.

Ummm... This is the perfect post.   I coud have never said it better.   I just want a EQ game with a new twist.  Skills/levels does not matter to me really its all about feeling like I had "earn" my status.   That is why EQ was so great, it never made a difference what level you were, that "ding" always felt rewarding.   I don't know how else to put it.

i would prefer a fully populated daoc server, with at least 1000 people on all three sides. All rvr active.

With no expansions OTHER than Darkness falls and maybe Shrowded isles, no catacombs, no darkness rising, no toa. Just drop based rvr where you chose capped stats or capped resists but not both.

With massive fights sneaking into the enemy realms by avoiding the guards getting up to the gates of the relic keep and knowing you had about 10 minutes before you were steamrollered back to the stone age :)

They were the memories i enjoyed, standing behind the gate of an open relic keep with a mana chanter and a bard while i was dropping stack after stack of mushrooms (being the only animist at the raid) and just laughing at anything coming through the door.

OR rvring on midgard with 5 trolls all assisting a single lurikeen into the floor :P

Or the 8 man fire wizard team we made on classic that assist nuked anything we targetted with bolts and no matter how far they ran they were going to die.
 

They are true memories knowing most of the players in your realm knowing who does what and when proper comadrie, before the game turned into Hunt the holy RP.

I'm not sure.

I remember doing what OP did a while ago (when i was waiting for AoC to come out?). I downloaded and trialed many mmo's some very old: shadowbane, doac, eve, I forget the rest. none were enjoyable now.

and its very much like when people told me morrowind was better than oblivion so I bought it. they where wrong. I modded morrowind ALOT so the graphics weren't that much worse than oblivion. but the gameplay is still ancient and sucky same as these old MMO's. the combat in morrowind is no way near as fun and responsive as in oblivion, questing is just walls of text.

I look back at the fun I used to have in older versions of runescape the same way people look back at pre trammel UO and pre CU SWG, but I know its nostalgia the game is never as fun now as you remember.

some older games are actually still fun now but many (like morrowind, shadowbane, doac for me) are just unplayable its hard to puy my finger on why. they just feel very rough, unpollished and clunky.

Originally posted by Consensus

I'm not sure.

I remember doing what OP did a while ago (when i was waiting for AoC to come out?). I downloaded and trialed many mmo's some very old: shadowbane, doac, eve, I forget the rest. none were enjoyable now.

and its very much like when people told me morrowind was better than oblivion so I bought it. they where wrong. I modded morrowind ALOT so the graphics weren't that much worse than oblivion. but the gameplay is still ancient and sucky same as these old MMO's. the combat in morrowind is no way near as fun and responsive as in oblivion, questing is just walls of text.

I look back at the fun I used to have in older versions of runescape the same way people look back at pre trammel UO and pre CU SWG, but I know its nostalgia the game is never as fun now as you remember.

some older games are actually still fun now but many (like morrowind, shadowbane, doac for me) are just unplayable its hard to puy my finger on why. they just feel very rough, unpollished and clunky.

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Agreed, but I think most of us would think like that also, I don't want to play the old ones again....I played them alot when they were top of the line.  We are looking for that new one that challenges us as much as some of the old ones. 

UO/EQ were great.....I went pretty much everywhere and did pretty much everything.....When I left EQ was right before a raid one night.......decided I didn't want to go.....let a note on the officer board and told them I was gonna go look for something new.  Seems to me like I went overseas while playing UO....got back and thought what the heck I'll try EQ it's out soon and looks like fun.  They were fun and I can watch the nostalgia films and remember the old days but just like most things in my life, had a great time but don't want to do it again.  But man I sure would like one that can challenge me enough to hold my attention for 5 years or so again.  Think most are just looking for that level of play, as most the new ones now are fine for a while, but are so much easier that I hit that been there done that wall way too quick.

1.The thing is they are not magical so to speak any longer because in our eyes we beat them thats why we quit.  We did everything we possibly wanted to do in them so we moved on.

2. Either this or the games we played got messed up  so much that we just did not want to play the game any longer because it was not the same game. I know this is true with pre tram UO for me. I could probally say if they never made tram I would still be playing UO right now.  This also happened with SWG. I was playing it then my computer blew up and I got a new one later on after I could afford one and the whole game was not the same. Why do this? Why not make a classic server for the people that wanted it not changed. I am sure it affected alot of people just from peoples opinions I see.

I just got back into playing Shadowbane.  It is clunky somewhat but at least by helping a nation out I can feel like I am accomplishing something again. I played it about a year and a half ago and alas I had to get a new computer again lol.

I have never tried Asheron's Call. I am thinking about giving it a try but I hear that hardly anyone plays any longer and they also changed things from how it was originally. I resubbed to daoc and its just not the same people moved on to different games and hardly anyone plays any longer. it is also not the same game becasue they changed things like with all mmo's. I don't know about Lineage 2 from what I hear it is a long grind and I can not play games that way like I used to be able to because of wife and children now.

What I really think they should do is make a new server that is classic style in mmo's every so often to keep things how some of us want them.  Either that or whenever they make new features in an mmo make a new server. MMO companies are combining servers now but when they combine servers they should also make a whole new server for people that want to try it BEFORE they combine servers. Then after the new server is made they can see how many people is left on the old servers to get an idea on which servers need combined.  Just my opinions I don't know if it would fix things or hurt the situation even more.