How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

An Xbox game did it with left joy movement, left digital attack type, right joy move sword.

It was a dungeon crawler so beat down was more important than precision.   Something that would was pretty important since you can't even get something as natural feeling as a game console controler to comfortably "control" the 3-5 points on the human arm you'd be interestested in for combat, much less the rest of the body.

IMO precise weapon manipulation pretty much requires a whole new approach to input devices.  That is unless your goal is a "simple" system that uses guards/stances and predetermined swing and strike points from each (still a lot more advanced than most games).

I'm a bit more ambitious than that, I'd look for nearly full locomotive controls.  Think Wii on crack: a gyro on each hand, an elbow angle detector, and a multi-directional shoulder monitor.  That just covers the arms, I'd also want a fairly complex foot pedal assembly that would cover movement and ideally (as much as some people hate the idea) voice recognition for spell casting.

The gyro and elbow detector are fairly simple (largely off the shelf parts fairly simple to design) as would be the fool control (2 4-way pedals on a beam+ a beam angle sensor).  The shoulder is much harder but I'm guessing there is a cleaver person that could handle it (in a comfortable and universal fit manner).  I see Voice recognition as ready today, as long as the "magic words" are distinct from each other (we don't need the game to recognize every word, just spell triggers).

Now the problem is no one would play such a game (no matter how cool the game really was).  All those input devices would be $2-300 to buy (easily), and the nature of the controls would place something of a time limit on how long a play session could be.  It would also add time to "suit up" to the login which again is an annoyance to some.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

IMO precise weapon manipulation pretty much requires a whole new approach to input devices.  That is unless your goal is a "simple" system that uses guards/stances and predetermined swing and strike points from each (still a lot more advanced than most games).

I'm a bit more ambitious than that, I'd look for nearly full locomotive controls.  Think Wii on crack: a gyro on each hand, an elbow angle detector, and a multi-directional shoulder monitor.  That just covers the arms, I'd also want a fairly complex foot pedal assembly that would cover movement and ideally (as much as some people hate the idea) voice recognition for spell casting.

The gyro and elbow detector are fairly simple (largely off the shelf parts fairly simple to design) as would be the fool control (2 4-way pedals on a beam+ a beam angle sensor).  The shoulder is much harder but I'm guessing there is a cleaver person that could handle it (in a comfortable and universal fit manner).  I see Voice recognition as ready today, as long as the "magic words" are distinct from each other (we don't need the game to recognize every word, just spell triggers).

Now the problem is no one would play such a game (no matter how cool the game really was).  All those input devices would be $2-300 to buy (easily), and the nature of the controls would place something of a time limit on how long a play session could be.  It would also add time to "suit up" to the login which again is an annoyance to some.

I'd actually just go for brain scan helmets.   Rather than going with the traditional methods that scientists are using to use them for input devices(get the person to think of distinct feeling then use those).  I'd have them wear it while doing different actions,  for instance 30 some hours of typeing, then use all the stored input that a genetic algorithum will use to adapt to the person.

Granted it's another one of those nifty devices that are years out of "peak commercial" applications, and still insanely burdensome to the user since it'll be like training a voice to text app but take much much longer.

I think that's too far away ... even though technology is advancing each second but still i think ghstwolf words are more applicable in the current days 

Then , so don't you think there's a way of good manipulation of things like swords with current keyboards and mouses ?? ,  i think it needs good imagination and training to get it but still it will be a new good system that combines power of control and advanced skilling

Originally posted by magiix

I think that's too far away ... even though technology is advancing each second but still i think ghstwolf words are more applicable in the current days 

Then , so don't you think there's a way of good manipulation of things like swords with current keyboards and mouses ?? ,  i think it needs good imagination and training to get it but still it will be a new good system that combines power of control and advanced skilling

We actually already have the technology and the hardware decent enough to maybe pull it off.   We just don't have the software to do so, and the software developement know how to do so requires a lot of finely honed skills that anyone capable of doing so is already doing something else.

neurology, advanced AI, project design, a few other sub types of AI developement.

I think your stuck with either a lot of keys (the number pad) and having them correspond to directional swings, which isn't really as good as I think you want... Or its mr mouse. Swing the sword with the mouse, just be careful when your pressing a button of the UI- dont be chopping your pet up :)

I wouldn't go the directional route, they never work as well as they sound and usually turn into spastic flailing.  Especially when you have to block in a particular direction, like in MOunt and Blade, it is just easier to dodge.

I would use something simple like using mouse button 1 and mouse button 2 for primary and secondary, ctrl to block, one block fits all, and use the R, F and C keys and the 1,2,3,4 keys for specials or combine shift and any of those keys to add different attacks you can string together in combos

Plays more like fighter at this point but I think you have more control over what you can do this way.

You can have WASD movement, Left click would be for your magic/bows and mining ect.

But, to manipulate the sword, this is how it would go down:

You hold right click, the direction you move your mouse is the way you swing. After letting off the right click, the sword moves back to position X. Theres a certain height ect. that the sword can move.

Idk if it would work, but would be nice.

I'm all for future applications of various input devices, but I agree that for now we just need to get the software and the connection speeds to the point where decent collision detection is even feasible.  Then we could have really great multi-directional input with the mouse and the keyboard like nothing we have ever seen before.

Has anyone ever gone through the thought experiment of implementing Melee Time?

It would be implemented such that getting into melee slows time in the vicinity of the melee.  That effect tapers off as you get farther from the point of melee.  It might taper off to zero at 100 feet.  At the point of melee, the adjustment might be 2, 3 or even 10 times slower than normal speed.

This would give players a chance to do more than hammer away at buttons in hopes of landing a blow.  They would be considering the posture of each character as well as the position of their shield, placement of weapon, etc.  There could be time to click on the part of the opponent that you want your character to strike at, or press the button that says "low slash" or "jump", etc.

Unfortunately, it would reduce or even eliminate the frantic sense of combat, depending on the slowdown applied.  But it would permit more involved melee combat.  If your character has the reaction time, it can even dodge arrows.  If your character is Neo, he'll just use his powers to react to the firing of the arrow and stop it in mid-air.

Originally posted by JB47394

Has anyone ever gone through the thought experiment of implementing Melee Time?

It would be implemented such that getting into melee slows time in the vicinity of the melee.  That effect tapers off as you get farther from the point of melee.  It might taper off to zero at 100 feet.  At the point of melee, the adjustment might be 2, 3 or even 10 times slower than normal speed.

I don't think it would work very well TBH.  A tapering time delay adds a whole new balance requirement for the various ranges of combat.  Considering the best most developers seem able to do is rock paper scissors (and most cannot even get this right) I see that part of it as nearly impossible.  Imagine an Archer, the tuning for his skills would need to be set for his primary range which just for example is 30 yards.  The time scale is say 1/2 normal speed at this range, however at 1 yard he would be at 1/4 normal speed.  That is a major shift, one that you'd either have to scale down attack times or scale damage up greatly, I'm not sure I like either option.

Personally I'd just tune combat as slower but more tactical.  Directing strikes is 1 such option, but IMO you must add equivilent systems to any magic and ranged systems to compliment the swing system.  Only then can you scale the speed of combat down, making tactical (stances/guards, position and targeting) choices fill that time.

I don't think I follow you.  Ranged attacks would definitely be odd, but the goal of the system would be to get combatants into Melee Time no matter how it is that they are fighting.  If I shoot an arrow at you, we both have to be in Melee Time.  Combatants are always in the full slowdown.

The tapering effect is to ensure that as someone attempts to close with me from a distance, they are smoothly transitioned from normal time to Melee Time.  Otherwise, if I was rushed by 10 guys, they'd all pile up at the interface point between the two timeframes.

If its triggered by melee fine, but when an archer is involved I guess you must slow time for both target and archer, hence you can trap people by getting your archers to slow them down while you close with them, sure you'll slow down as you get close but they'll always be slower till you intercept. One option could be to only apply time dilation to melee combat and any archers targetting into this melee, while archers targetting non-melee characters wont apply or suffer the effects. It might look a little odd, but will take a lot of stress of the server client interface as you crank up the complexity of combat.

1. Make Melee Time a voluntary setting.  Turning it off allows unimpaired movement, but prevents a player from issuing 'reflex' actions to the character.

2. Make weapons trigger Melee Time.  The first command to make a sword attack triggers Melee Time.  The release of an arrow from a bow triggers Melee Time.  Melee Time creates the bubble around the weapon, meaning that as the arrow flies, it carries a bubble of Melee Time with it.  The arrow only slows as much as the bubble of Melee Time around it influences a character.  If any character in the bubble has Melee Time enabled, then every character in the bubble is affected.

In the case of an arrow, when it arrives at its destination, it will trigger a slowdown if any character in the Melee Time bubble around the arrow has Melee Time enabled.  That means that somebody wants to be able to use their Melee Time capabilities to defend against arrows.

In the case of a sword attack, the sword creates a Melee Time bubble around it.  If either the attacker or defender has Melee Time enabled, then both are in Melee Time.  If both have it off, then the sword attack happens in real time.

If a character is trying to escape, he turns off Melee Time and runs.  He'll initially run in slow motion because he's near people who are using Melee Time in combat.  But as soon as he's clear of the battle, he can run in real time.  Archers can take shots at him, but they won't slow his escape because he's turned Melee Time off and there are no characters around to force him into Melee Time (the arrow itself doesn't count).  The only way an archer can slow his escape at that point is to hit him.

This package eliminates the abuse of Melee Time by archers.  It does not prevent its abuse by melee types who chase down a fleeing character.  If they chase the character down and initiate a melee attack, then the fleeing character is forced into Melee Time.

The game could introduce character actions that quickly move a character out of Melee Time range so that flight is more practical.  These would be disengage-style actions.

I was actually thinking about this a while back. The major problem is that, if it's an MMO, once combat has finished there would have to be a taper back to normal time and if that isn't smooth as chrome-plated grease nipples people who just finished combat will be forced to go through one or two hits before their time tapers back down. As for the Idea of Melee Time, I'm all for it. I would get to making it now if I could program that well :P.

1) About fleeing, that could be a problem if the enemy is faster than you.  Having Melee "bursts" like in POP: The Two Thrones, where time slows down only when The Prince is about to stab someone, then it resumes. So a person "legging it" would go into slow-mo, dodge, and continue legging it.

2) In terms of accurate manipulation, you could use a modelling program to set "Bones" that restrict movement, fast AND slow twitch muscles and make it take into account the player agility, weight, height and strength.  You would only need to set this on several models; one slim male, one fat male, one buff male, one slim female, one fat female and one buff female. After that all you need is a formula for people who are in between those body types.

In any case, it's long, hard work, but so damn worth it.

Originally posted by diediedie119

The major problem is that, if it's an MMO, once combat has finished there would have to be a taper back to normal time and if that isn't smooth [...] people who just finished combat will be forced to go through one or two hits before their time tapers back down.

The transition out of Melee Time shouldn't be an issue.  If I am involved in combat, Melee Time will vanish perhaps 10 seconds after my opponent and I stop exchanging attacks - however that plays out.  Everyone around me loses Melee Time at the same moment that I do.  If anyone around me is fighting, then I will remain in Melee Time until I either get out of range of their fighting or 10 seconds after they stop fighting.

There's no real issue with smooth transitions out of Melee Time.  It will all play out on the server where everything gets synchronized.

The 10 seconds that I'm referencing is a guess that is intended to keep Melee Time active through melee that consists of attacks that might be initiated every 2 or 3 seconds.  Each time an attack is made, a 10 second timer is restarted.  If 10 seconds pass without an attack being made, the timer expires and Melee Time ends.

Good idea... I'm an idiot :P.

Next on the agenda is the actual slowing of time. Remember that if you're in slow-mo for 10 seconds, realistically only 1 second has passed. Question is how do you catch up? should the computer just ask for the newest packet or go through the ones it missed in fast forward?? (( That question has kept me up at night ))

Rest easy.  The answer is that no catching up is necessary.

This time slowdown is nothing more than the character models involved moving more slowly.  That's it.  Everything remains the same.  There's no true time dilation going on.  No special treatment of network packets.  Nobody gets ahead or behind in time.

A caveat to that is that any timers that are running would be slowed by Melee Time.  If I'm lighting a stick of dynamite on an 8 second fuse, then while in Melee Time, that 8 seconds will extend to 24 seconds if we assume a 3x time modification.  Taken to an extreme, if I light that fuse, you could immediately throw a punch at me to put us both into Melee Time.  You can continue to throw punches to keep me in Melee Time and drag those 8 seconds out to the full 24.  That gives somebody else who is outside of our melee 24 seconds to grab a bucket of water, run over to us and toss the water on the fuse to extinguish it.  (The water would slow to Melee Time as it entered our bubble of fist-throwing melee)

When Melee Time ends, it just ends.  There is no reconciliation of time.  I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out what to do if characters are wearing watches.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

IMO precise weapon manipulation pretty much requires a whole new approach to input devices.  That is unless your goal is a "simple" system that uses guards/stances and predetermined swing and strike points from each (still a lot more advanced than most games).

I'm a bit more ambitious than that, I'd look for nearly full locomotive controls.  Think Wii on crack: a gyro on each hand, an elbow angle detector, and a multi-directional shoulder monitor.  That just covers the arms, I'd also want a fairly complex foot pedal assembly that would cover movement and ideally (as much as some people hate the idea) voice recognition for spell casting.

The gyro and elbow detector are fairly simple (largely off the shelf parts fairly simple to design) as would be the fool control (2 4-way pedals on a beam+ a beam angle sensor).  The shoulder is much harder but I'm guessing there is a cleaver person that could handle it (in a comfortable and universal fit manner).  I see Voice recognition as ready today, as long as the "magic words" are distinct from each other (we don't need the game to recognize every word, just spell triggers).

Now the problem is no one would play such a game (no matter how cool the game really was).  All those input devices would be $2-300 to buy (easily), and the nature of the controls would place something of a time limit on how long a play session could be.  It would also add time to "suit up" to the login which again is an annoyance to some.

I'd buy it. Do you realize how many birds you'd be killing with one stone? 1) Full-body workout 2) Top-notch entertainment 3) Family quality time (if you get multiple sets). If they pulled off an MMORPG like this where your own physical skill determined the outcome of PvP, I would be sold for life.

Originally posted by CactusmanX

I wouldn't go the directional route, they never work as well as they sound and usually turn into spastic flailing.  Especially when you have to block in a particular direction, like in MOunt and Blade, it is just easier to dodge.

I would use something simple like using mouse button 1 and mouse button 2 for primary and secondary, ctrl to block, one block fits all, and use the R, F and C keys and the 1,2,3,4 keys for specials or combine shift and any of those keys to add different attacks you can string together in combos

Plays more like fighter at this point but I think you have more control over what you can do this way.

This is also a very, very good idea. This is what devs should be doing now until the above comes public.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

IMO precise weapon manipulation pretty much requires a whole new approach to input devices.  That is unless your goal is a "simple" system that uses guards/stances and predetermined swing and strike points from each (still a lot more advanced than most games).

I'm a bit more ambitious than that, I'd look for nearly full locomotive controls.  Think Wii on crack: a gyro on each hand, an elbow angle detector, and a multi-directional shoulder monitor.  That just covers the arms, I'd also want a fairly complex foot pedal assembly that would cover movement and ideally (as much as some people hate the idea) voice recognition for spell casting.

The gyro and elbow detector are fairly simple (largely off the shelf parts fairly simple to design) as would be the fool control (2 4-way pedals on a beam+ a beam angle sensor).  The shoulder is much harder but I'm guessing there is a cleaver person that could handle it (in a comfortable and universal fit manner).  I see Voice recognition as ready today, as long as the "magic words" are distinct from each other (we don't need the game to recognize every word, just spell triggers).

Now the problem is no one would play such a game (no matter how cool the game really was).  All those input devices would be $2-300 to buy (easily), and the nature of the controls would place something of a time limit on how long a play session could be.  It would also add time to "suit up" to the login which again is an annoyance to some.

I was thinking Eye-Toy.

Oooo that would be simple you just need to train your program to reconize two points on a sword and from there you can figure out it's exact position, angle, and whatever.   Then toss in some body position reconization to get those.

Well simple compared to everything else.  

Originally posted by magiix

How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

Assuming we're using the good ole keyboard & mouse, I would do it in First Person with mouse/cursor system that allows you to draw out your swords attack/guard path|pattern of motion.

Originally posted by techlord

Originally posted by magiix

How do you can be done a  full manipulation of the sword ??? Go

 

Assuming we're using the good ole keyboard & mouse, I would do it in First Person with mouse/cursor system that allows you to draw out your swords attack/guard path|pattern of motion.

First , Actually i thought about it but still can't imagine the whole image ... Even if it would be hard but good , that would be enough as i think ...

Second , i still don't know how the slow motion would be part of the online game  ... If you are used to kill a monster with 10 secs so actually you wasted 10 secs from the Game day ( say it would be 6 hours )  >>10 secs(real) =  10secs(game) , so in slow motion with 3X you will kill it with 30 secs , so when you go back to the realtime gaming you would have wasted in real 30 secs but should just have wasted 10 secs in the game which isnt ...cuz the game couted 30 secs with the realtime .