I like PvP. Competetive PvP that is, not ganking. I find the combat in PvP more exciting for obvious reasons like there's a human player against you but also for the mechanics how it works. Mainly there are no tanks or aggro in PvP. Why would anyone want to hit the strongest target in the group?

This brings me to the topic since I'm playing with the idea how these mechanics would transfer to the PvE aspect of the game. I'm not suggesting that you take your average MMO and take the tank away, no. -Rather I'd like to suggest that the game would be designed from ground up without the traditional aggro system and the traditional tank. What would this require from the game? What does it need to work?

First thing that comes to my mind is that it would require an advanced AI from the mobs. I see too dumb AIs in the MMO genre. I feel the traditional aggro/hate/taunt system is a poor coverup of some horrible AI. Pull/lure, tank, kill, heal/recover, pull/lure, tank, kill... -formula is way too old and hasn't seen any real improvement.

For example: Melee mobs should attack the closest target at first but change their target to one more suitable target to do more effect. Avoiding these enemies might require snares, roots, bodyblocking or other means of debuff or protecting buffs. Just like you'd do when playing against a human opponent. Just to add some salt, mobs should be linked (if they have aggro bubble), get help or back away if needed, avoid aoe and protect their key characters.

I'm sure AI isn't the only thing that needs to be changed for this to work. If you have any other ideas how a game would work without tanks, post please. I want to see where this goes.

I believe that the game you're looking for is Guild Wars.  At first glance, it looks similar to the usual tank/healer/damage dealer setup.  Certainly there are healers.

But there is no aggro system in Guild Wars.  Mobs instead target whoever they think they can kill the fastest.  This is a combination of who is in range, who has light armor, and who doesn't have much health (whether due to a low max health or having already taken damage.  A "tank" can body block mobs so that they can't get at the weaker members, but the nearest notion of tanking that Guild Wars has is making sure that everyone in the group can take a good beating.

A Tale in the Desert and Puzzle Pirates also have no tanks.  But then, A Tale in the Desert has no combat at all, while Puzzle Pirates combat is weird enough that even if the company were to inclined to add a tanking system, the notion simply wouldn't make sense. 

I think more magic damage, a little less heals, and the last thing we need it faster hits for rouges and fast damage dealers.

Tanks are basically defensive characters which I think you will always find a need for in games.  So I do not think you need to drop the tank but instead change what it means to tank.

I agree that better or at least different AI is need, but also drop the concept of taunting and forcing a mob to fight you.  Of course there is still a defensive role in this situation.  Like a Paladin using stuns and knockbacks to protect his teamates, controlling enemy movements so the squishies can get away.  Instead of a tank making enemies come to them to protect his team the tank could remove the enemy threat from their allies. 

You really don't need to preach me about GW, Quizzical . GW is definately one significant milestone in MMO history. It's on the right track atleast. However I'm not looking for a game. I only want to map the features that make these games work.

Well UO never really had tanks (at least in now traditional sence) but think that was mainly because AI was so stupid. Basicly whoever hit it first was "it" and players could generally easyly kite anything and where kiteing would not work you just pulled out tamers with dragons

As to what the OP is suggesting, sounds good but doubt will happen for simple reason, too hard/complicated for average "mmo player"

Notice how i don't use phrase "MMO gamer"? That's because they probably could handle it, but game that would would be only playable for dedicated gamers would not really "succeed" in todays market place and games these days are so costly that it would be foolish really for anyone to spend (gamble) the tens of millions to create a quality game for what they would know from the outset would be at best just a nitch market

I still play D2 off and on.  If only I could convince blizzard to turn that into an MMO...

A good way to go about this problem is not removing tanks, but instead looking at targetting behaviour in PvP and adapt the classes to that.

Now Healers are most of the time targetted first. As such it would make sense to put all healers into heavy armor. Most MMOs go with the idea of healing = prayers and as standard lore goes you can still pray in heavy armor ( unlike casting spells. ) so there would really be no reason at all for priests/clerics etc. to not wear the heaviest armor they can find. They're the primary target after all!

Warrior-like classes on the other hand are hardly ever targetted except for the notorious crowd control. So to be honest it would make perfect sense for them to be decked out in slightly lighter armors such as mail to give them increased mobility. The things warriors most often do in PvP besides single-target damage is knockdowns and snares AKA controlling enemy movement. I think this would be the way to tank in PvE as well. Making warriors prevent damage not by armor but by controlling their enemies movement so that enemies can not hit cloth targets. In addition to interupting key abilities.

Mage-like classes would pretty much remain more or less the same. No big changes would be needed with them.

Rogue-like classes I'd say would need to become much more focussed on hit and run instead of stabbing enemies in the back constantly. A good way to do this imho would be to give them ranged debuffs and buffs. Select a target and 'prepare' your attack with by buffing yourself ( poisons, increased reflexes etc. ) and debuffing your enemy ( scan weaknesses, daze them etc. ) and then rush in with a speed boost, unleash a quick high damage melee assault and then retreat back out to repeat.

Hunter-like classes should be focussed on more mobile ranged combat. Relatively low damage but a lot of harassing abilities. Such as snares and interupts. Basically your standard ranger/hunter with less damage but more mobility.

I think with a setup like that, combined with decent AI PvE combat could start looking a bit more like PvP combat.

Tanking could be a combination of body blocking, cover abilities, knockdowns, knockbacks, grabs, and counterattacks when a cover ability is used sucessfully. Ai should go after the lighter armored players and players with the most utility and proximity.

Yes, it could be done.  Easily.  See the other thread on this same topic.

the reason 'tank n spank' is still around: It is still successful. For the vast majority of MMO players, twitch based fastthinking buttonmash is something they not only cannot do, but just don't WANT to do.

Magic, isn't it?

M

Check out Mass Effect.  Not a MMO but great class system.  And you do play with a squad of three. 

And I could see this as a MMO.

Darkfall is a MMO without "tanks".

Well they have no healers or DPS either for that sake. Only characters.

And yes, i know everyone hates it and my opinion about it does not fit into this discussion because it would just end the arguments. So everyone will just ignore it and continue...

Originally posted by daarco

Darkfall is a MMO without "tanks".

Well they have no healers or DPS either for that sake. Only characters.

And yes, i know everyone hates it and my opinion about it does not fit into this discussion because it would just end the arguments. So everyone will just ignore it and continue...

 

 

Does Darkfall still have aggro and tanking and healing skills?  If so, then it's no different than class-based games. 

It does not have "aggro" or "tanking" skills. Dont even know what that is. There are spells and skills that will help the health to recover a bit faster. And a healing spell will effect everyone in the AoE, both friends and foes (manual aimed, no auto targeting).

But mobs will taunt you to attack them : )

Edit: whow whow! What did you say about if there is skills, its the same as classes?? So if i take some crafting, riding, sword, archery, healing, magic missile, and skinning skills......im a healer??? What??

But does Darkfall have PvE? 

Chronicles of spellborn has no tanks, well I guess some classes might survive a hit or two longer.  But the only REAL method of tanking is not getting hit via physically moving your character.   It's to such an extreme that you can die to your first newbie mob if you play it like a stand and mash "MMO Traditional".

edit:

Mabinogi also isn't tank based.   Instead everyone learns the core skills and from they they'll have to use them in such a way to counter everything the enemy does.   It's actually an amazingly good implementation for a F2P game.

Originally posted by Quizzical

But does Darkfall have PvE? 

THAT's the crucial question here. No it doesn't, it's below minimum, it's less than in EvE, it has some kill 25 goblin quests and you can grind mobs to level up your skills. That's it.

No storylines, no complex quests, no dungeons, no raidinstances, no pvE minigames, no phat bossloot.

And before the hate starts to kick in; I don't blame DFO for not having it, it's just you can't praise a boat for not having crappy tyres...

M

Originally posted by Meridion

the reason 'tank n spank' is still around: It is still successful. For the vast majority of MMO players, twitch based fastthinking buttonmash is something they not only cannot do, but just don't WANT to do.

If we're being honest here, yes, that's mostly true.  People have always wanted easy mode game play in MMOs.  They were willing to spend 40+ hours per week grinding, but I'll be damned if they were going to put up with challenging game play...

Anyway, I don't see why you couldn't ramp up the AI and just design a few classes that are...well, easier to play?  This has always been the case with class based MMOs anyway, you have some easy mode, button mashing classes (usually DPS) and some more complex and challenging classes (usually the utility and PvP healers).

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Quizzical

But does Darkfall have PvE? 

 

THAT's the crucial question here. No it doesn't, it's below minimum, it's less than in EvE, it has some kill 25 goblin quests and you can grind mobs to level up your skills. That's it.

No storylines, no complex quests, no dungeons, no raidinstances, no pvE minigames, no phat bossloot.

And before the hate starts to kick in; I don't blame DFO for not having it, it's just you can't praise a boat for not having crappy tyres...

M

What the *¤#"?? Yes it have. And you dont grind mobs to gain skil, you spar with friends.

And DF dont have quest, thats right. Jusr some basic to learn the game. And in beta i did see major dungeons.  Raids? Dont even know wjhat that is. Just that we did raid a playercity.

And this is no hate post. I was trying to understand this thread, a MMO without "tanks" and posted that there is no "tanks" in DF......and you just pop up and says there is no PvE in Darkfall! What if some weak minded young person reads this and belive you? Did you think about that? I guess not.

You are still right to your opininon, but if you are interestd in FACTs...just do a search for Darkfall PvE on youtube

This for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69ZkXbynjaA&feature=related

It's exactly how I said.

You get 'kill xy gobbos' quests and you - sorry - CAN kill mobs to level your skills (since how would you spar with anyone if you're alone)...

The tank/heal/dd-system as was critizised is, in its very essence, a system of PvE. Instancing, questing, dungeonrunning, raiding (like 20 people vs. a AI-controlled boss), things like that.

DFO does not have this (and probably won't need it, time will tell), so DFO is not a very good example of alternative PvE. In fact it's only an example of 'close to no' PvE at all...

Or the other way around, a tank/heal/dd-system does only apply in PvE situations, PvP is a different party alltogether

M

Originally posted by Meridion

It's exactly how I said.

You get 'kill xy gobbos' quests and you - sorry - CAN kill mobs to level your skills (since how would you spar with anyone if you're alone)...

The tank/heal/dd-system as was critizised is, in its very essence, a system of PvE. Instancing, questing, dungeonrunning, raiding (like 20 people vs. a AI-controlled boss), things like that.

DFO does not have this (and probably won't need it, time will tell), so DFO is not a very good example of alternative PvE. In fact it's only an example of 'close to no' PvE at all...

Or the other way around, a tank/heal/dd-system does only apply in PvE situations, PvP is a different party alltogether

M

Ahhhh!

I have always wondered what the "tank/healer/dps" thing was all about. PvE!

But, we do PvE in DF without "tank/healer/dps" all the time agenst dragons, giant golems and monster....it took one group three hours to fight one dragon! So i still dont get the whole mentality that you need a "tank" to do PvE. Its very alien and strange thought for me to say you need one?

I really like this thread now.

It can be done, simply dont put classes in the mmorpg. Make whatever weapon you have equiped at the time define your class in the game. If you equip a bow you are an archer, if you equip a dagger you are a Rogue or a Thief, change to a spear and you are a Knight or a Lancer. There is room in the industry for this kind of innovation to come. I hope a game like this soon hits the market. As well as games that are smart enough to make currency non tradable to get rid of the RMT problem for good.

- "Looks at monster hunter series"

MMO without a tank - Can it be done?

For me yes it can be done, as a matter of fact in all the MMORPG's I have played I never made use of the holy trinity atleast not when I made groups, joining one was different as I notice that most seem to rely on the holy trinity, for me it's much more challenging  going into a dungeon/instance without the holy trinity. And I also agree on that system being far to old to still be used these day's.

What I would like to see "in the future" is similar or even better AI then what we see with singleplayer games, I mean at the moment playing FEAR2 and yeah thats the type of AI I would love seeing one day in a MMORPG, but fully know the tech is not there yet to impliment such a AI in a MMORPG....one day my friend.....one day it will be there........

Originally posted by Reklaw

MMO without a tank - Can it be done?

For me yes it can be done, as a matter of fact in all the MMORPG's I have played I never made use of the holy trinity atleast not when I made groups, joining one was different as I notice that most seem to rely on the holy trinity, for me it's much more challenging  going into a dungeon/instance without the holy trinity. And I also agree on that system being far to old to still be used these day's.

What I would like to see "in the future" is similar or even better AI then what we see with singleplayer games, I mean at the moment playing FEAR2 and yeah thats the type of AI I would love seeing one day in a MMORPG, but fully know the tech is not there yet to impliment such a AI in a MMORPG....one day my friend.....one day it will be there........

This system is already getting translucent and watered down. the iron rule of the holy trinity is long gone, with hybrid and skillable classes in most games...

Even in very traditional class-based-PvE games like LotRO, more than one class can be a 'tank', more than one class can heal if needed and a very broad range of classes can damage and CC.

Still, this system bears as many downsides as it has upsides.

A class system with the holy trinity allows people to _know_ what they can't and can do. you can choose to play a hybrid class if you want to be a hybrid, or you can choose to be a specialized class.

The argument that is - often rightfully - brought up against class-systems is that people are not really free to develop and are fixed to one playstyle unless they create alts; While this is true, it is also something that can be very satisfying: You play a role, everyone knows what you do, doesn't expect you to do anything else, you have your job and you can focus on doing it right. Additionally, if you have classes in a PvE game, you can be sure that the encounters you'll face are pretty much balanced towards the abilities a balanced group setup has; 

It eventually depends on what you want; In a game with fixed classes only so much can go 'wrong', everything is a LOT more plannable, where at the same you buy this controllability with the loss of a huge amount of freedom.

I myself am playing games on both sides of this bench, and I'm enjoying my ride in LotRO as much as the unpredictable fleet fights in EvE...

M