Now that Adventurine has said it's okay to macro away from guard towers, don't worry, by the time you get into the game, everyone who pre-ordered will have max. magic skills.

I'm not trolling, actually. I am exaggerating a little but I've seen the evidence myself: people are open about the fact they're macroing their skills. Hell, over half of the people in one of the polls I saw were people saying they do or will macro.

Don't even think about getting into a debate with me about what a macro is vs. a bot or anything. That's a waste of time and you know it. In a game where you can skill yourself by simply pressing a button under cover of safety with very little chance of dying, the intricate differences between 'macro' and 'bot' are moot at best.
 

As a frame of reference, I pre-ordered and I can play the release game right now.

Also: there is nothing in the game that kicks you for being AFK. You heard me right: you can AFK level your Rest, Run, or Swim without using anything other than the DFO client.

These are serious issues.

Anyone who didn't know that macroing would be a problem is naive. That said, they didn't give a person a free pace to marco out side of towns. They just said that it comes with inherent dangers of players killing them easily.

Originally posted by xpiher

Anyone who didn't know that macroing would be a problem is naive. That said, they didn't give a person a free pace to marco out side of towns. They just said that it comes with inherent dangers of players killing them easily.

They said they 'frown' on people macroing their skills outside the safety of towns. Frown? FROWN?

FROWN?!

They should take a hard line against botting and macroing. If they don't they are going to totally screw their game.

People needs to stop crying over macroing.

I'm not saying I'm pro macro, but the thing is, it is there. And it is there for everyone, therefore it means that every can use them, and actually should.

Maxing Run / Rest / Swim isn't going to be an issue for everyone, so no one will actually be above someone else. It only means that leveling those up in normal ways aren't going to apply (as they should be IMO) but everyone will max them out with macro.

This topic doesn't need to be discussed and re-discussed every day, maybe you think you are a special kid for bring it up, but you aren't. Stop crying over something that you have no control over and that is obviously not going to change at this point and start macroing.

Originally posted by kedoremos

Originally posted by xpiher

Anyone who didn't know that macroing would be a problem is naive. That said, they didn't give a person a free pace to marco out side of towns. They just said that it comes with inherent dangers of players killing them easily.

 

They said they 'frown' on people macroing their skills outside the safety of towns. Frown? FROWN?

FROWN?!

They should take a hard line against botting and macroing. If they don't they are going to totally screw their game.

They (the devs) played UO back in the day when many PKers macroed everything. Even a lot of non PKers macroed.

Thing is people think "Meh, I can kill a macroer and ruin them macroing" when in actuality it doesnt. They will just come back, check their toon and start naked macroing again. Killing a macroer doesnt do anything to ruin their skills because what they got for skill increases before they were killed are still there. Death is just a minor setback.

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

People needs to stop crying over macroing.

 

I'm not saying I'm pro macro, but the thing is, it is there. And it is there for everyone, therefore it means that every can use them, and actually should.

 

Maxing Run / Rest / Swim isn't going to be an issue for everyone, so no one will actually be above someone else. It only means that leveling those up in normal ways aren't going to apply (as they should be IMO) but everyone will max them out with macro.

 

This topic doesn't need to be discussed and re-discussed every day, maybe you think you are a special kid for bring it up, but you aren't. Stop crying over something that you have no control over and that is obviously not going to change at this point and start macroing.

Serious question: Everyone macros unabated for the next week say, everyone now has maxed out skills. What now?

Shouldn't an MMO provide up to years worth of accomplishment? Everyone stands in place afk and maxes their character...then what endless PvP with no advancement?

They should nip the macroing in the bud.

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

People needs to stop crying over macroing.

 

I'm not saying I'm pro macro, but the thing is, it is there. And it is there for everyone, therefore it means that every can use them, and actually should.

 

Maxing Run / Rest / Swim isn't going to be an issue for everyone, so no one will actually be above someone else. It only means that leveling those up in normal ways aren't going to apply (as they should be IMO) but everyone will max them out with macro.

 

This topic doesn't need to be discussed and re-discussed every day, maybe you think you are a special kid for bring it up, but you aren't. Stop crying over something that you have no control over and that is obviously not going to change at this point and start macroing.

Right. This is the same excuse 1st world companies use when they ship good jobs to 3rd world countries: "Because our competition does it, we have to."

Just because the person next to you is doing something completely wrong doesn't make it right for your to do it.

Macroing is cheating. Whatever happened to earning your stripes?

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

People needs to stop crying over macroing.

 

I'm not saying I'm pro macro, but the thing is, it is there. And it is there for everyone, therefore it means that every can use them, and actually should.

 

Maxing Run / Rest / Swim isn't going to be an issue for everyone, so no one will actually be above someone else. It only means that leveling those up in normal ways aren't going to apply (as they should be IMO) but everyone will max them out with macro.

 

This topic doesn't need to be discussed and re-discussed every day, maybe you think you are a special kid for bring it up, but you aren't. Stop crying over something that you have no control over and that is obviously not going to change at this point and start macroing.

I think what gets people is the fact everyone keeps calling the game 'Hardcore' while at the same time making fun of others for playing 'easy games that hold your hand' then at the same time saying 'Macros are not bad'.

Macroing makes the game easier, so that kinda kicks the whole 'Hardcore' thing out the window. Dying while macroing is nothing but a minor setback for the player as no skills are lost at all.

The fact that so many 'Hardcore' players talk about macroing as a bonus makes the game about as hardcore as a game of 'Go Fish'

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing makes the game easier, so that kinda kicks the whole 'Hardcore' thing out the window. Dying while macroing is nothing but a minor setback for the player as no skills are lost at all.

 

Macroing means the hardcore game degrades to watching TV and checking your progress now and then.

Not very hardcore. Specially when the excuse is other players will have to police things by killing macroers (sp?).

By macroing they meant setting up key bindings to perform the action for you.  They said they frown on unattended macroing, aka, having a program do that for you with you not even sitting at your computer.  There's nothing wrong with setting up a key to perform the tasks of a series of keys, if you're there.  It just takes away some of the tedium of leveling your skills.  What they said was that macroing under the protection of the guard towers - preventing players from killing you - will result in a kick, and if caught again, potentially a ban.  With the limited resources they have, I'd say that's about the best they can do for the time being.

Like I said in my first sentence, I'm not pro macro, in fact I dislike it.

But the thing is, macroing made it to... "release"... therefore I strongly foresee it to stay and people have complained for what...? Weeks now about it and it's getting old.

If it was "wrong", people would get ban.

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by tcosaddict

By macroing they meant setting up key bindings to perform the action for you.  They said they frown on unattended macroing, aka, having a program do that for you with you not even sitting at your computer.  There's nothing wrong with setting up a key to perform the tasks of a series of keys, if you're there.  It just takes away some of the tedium of leveling your skills.  What they said was that macroing under the protection of the guard towers - preventing players from killing you - will result in a kick, and if caught again, potentially a ban.  With the limited resources they have, I'd say that's about the best they can do for the time being.

Indeed.

Furthermore, in order to lvl magic skills you need consumeables to cast the spells past magic missle. You think a macro will get max magic skill without losing 100s of gold when he/she gets killed? I'm not saying macroing should be done, I'm just saying that Idont think it is as bad as you all think it will be.

Originally posted by tcosaddict

By macroing they meant setting up key bindings to perform the action for you.  They said they frown on unattended macroing, aka, having a program do that for you with you not even sitting at your computer.  There's nothing wrong with setting up a key to perform the tasks of a series of keys, if you're there.  It just takes away some of the tedium of leveling your skills.  What they said was that macroing under the protection of the guard towers - preventing players from killing you - will result in a kick, and if caught again, potentially a ban.  With the limited resources they have, I'd say that's about the best they can do for the time being.

Yeah I don't think so.

The word macro has been around longer than MMOs and I doubt anyone who works for Adventurine is going to attempt to redefine it.

Macro = Cheating.

I understand why people dislike macroing inherently. However, I have some very logical reasons for promoting macroing. The philosophical reason being that any task so simple to perform is unworth of human attention (which is why we have spreadsheets, etc). Also, I am philosophically against pointless, unchallenging repetition in video games.

Why I dislike 'unchallenging' repitition:

• Waste of time (why we have spreadsheets and calculators IRL)
• Does not measure player 'skill'
• Does not require thinking to perform
• There are inherent design flaws if a series of instructions can be repeated to win a game

How macroing can help MMORPGs:

• Repetitive tasks are performed by a program, so players will not purchase gold from gold farmers
• Players can reach the breakpoint required to achieve a certain ability, allowing them to compete with other players, as they originally intended.
• Outsources the monotony of the grind, so the player can enjoy the parts of the game they want to play
• Discourages pointless game design (remember clicking the rock 1,000,000 times in runescape?)
• Allows players to focus on the complex tasks of the game, such as fighting, trade management, and exploration.

How macroing can hurt:

• Allows players who macro a competitive advantage over non-macroers
• In very poorly designed pvp scenarios, can give players tactical advantages (eg, the hunter bots that were winning arena rounds in WoW by targetting the same units
  
  
  
   

The solution? Simply remove any game mechanics that can be macroed. They are inherently pointless. There are many ways to make tradeskills interesting without requiring repetition, such as the old SWG 'farms' and 'energy' collectors which required players to view maps, note trends, explore, and optimize their machinery in order to succeed. Resources can be 'mined' by capturing control points in combat, rather than by clicking on a rock 1,000,000 times.

Originally posted by Kaiphas

I understand why people dislike macroing inherently. However, I have some very logical reasons for promoting macroing. The philosophical reason being that any task so simple to perform is unworth of human attention (which is why we have spreadsheets, etc). Also, I am philosophically against pointless, unchallenging repetition in video games.

Why I dislike 'unchallenging' repitition:

• Waste of time (why we have spreadsheets and calculators IRL)
• Does not measure player 'skill'
• Does not require thinking to perform
• There are inherent design flaws if a series of instructions can be repeated to win a game

 

How macroing can help MMORPGs:

• Repetitive tasks are performed by a program, so players will not purchase gold from gold farmers
• Players can reach the breakpoint required to achieve a certain ability, allowing them to compete with other players, as they originally intended.
• Outsources the monotony of the grind, so the player can enjoy the parts of the game they want to play
• Discourages pointless game design (remember clicking the rock 1,000,000 times in runescape?)
• Allows players to focus on the complex tasks of the game, such as fighting, trade management, and exploration.

 

How macroing can hurt:

• Allows players who macro a competitive advantage over non-macroers
• In very poorly designed pvp scenarios, can give players tactical advantages (eg, the hunter bots that were winning arena rounds in WoW by targetting the same units
  
  
  
   

The solution? Simply remove any game mechanics that can be macroed. They are inherently pointless. There are many ways to make tradeskills interesting without requiring repetition, such as the old SWG 'farms' and 'energy' collectors which required players to view maps, note trends, explore, and optimize their machinery in order to succeed. Resources can be 'mined' by capturing control points in combat, rather than by clicking on a rock 1,000,000 times.

 

 

<snipped my reply>

You're actually making a good point here. Sorry for my initial reaction.

Don't forget, people, we BEGGED for a skill based system where assholes who macro their ways to the top.

What's that? What's that I hear?!

Oh right. It's the sound of World of fucking Warcraft saying "Well, we don't have bots. We took a hardline against them, unlike SOME people."

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

Why is there macroing?  Because the game is skill based and its so boring grinding skills.  Its even more boring because its pointless grinding skill through pvping b/c you are most likely killed when your skills are low, making it hard to stay long enough during fights when your skills are low and you need to stay alive to swing your sword to skill up.

This goes back to pure pvp game.  The best design is FPS.  Everyone is almost the same, and as long as you can shoot your gun, you are shooting.  All those attributes, skills and such are unnecessary complexity imposed on a game genre in which all ppl want is fast paced dueling or mass ganking.  Give the player a gun and an enemy, let them shoot.  Strength? dexterity? gun skill? what is it?

For MMOs, with statistics and attributes, minimaxing is the norm.  Ok, you may enjoy charging out nake, unoptimised and hoping you can kill someone.  yeah good luck.  If you enjoy charging out every time, all the time, eating dirt and hoping you will max your skills eventually, fine.  Not many players do.  If they minimax, they will try to gear up, skill up.  If skill up requiring pressing button X 1 million times they will try to macro.  In the morrowind days, I press the run button and go to bed to max out my stamina and agility before I start exploring.  I do.  What is so immoral about that.

For those who try to argue about hardcore, its not hardcore to design a game and insist that ppl stay online just to watch the repetitive grinding of skills.  Its lame design, lacking in creativity, and designing something that any sane normal person would find totally unrewarding as a form of digital entertainment.  We have skill ups in EQ, we got to lvl up a skill 5 times per level.  There are lots of things to do during that level and enough occasion for us to naturally max our skills as we go about questing, camping mobs or whatever.  Just go explore a dungeon fight with your sword and you usually maxed out way before next level.  Now that skilling is not boring, and we never macro level our weapon skills.  In DF you are gimped if your skills are not maxed and pvping, and pvping is all there is in this game.  So you max your skills first before you can do anything worth the trouble, you macro.  Its the stupid game design that makes macroing the preferring option of playing.

Get off your high horse, its a game ppl spend money to enjoy, not to be forced to whatever game mode the stupid developer wants.  There is no cheating there, as its something very obvious and common sense, unlike hacking code.  There is no point in insisting that player sit in front of the computer watching, as that does not contribute to the skillless grinding or personal entertainment.  You think its high moral trying to penalise people and make them suffer in real life?

Originally posted by Kaiphas

The solution? Simply remove any game mechanics that can be macroed. They are inherently pointless. There are many ways to make tradeskills interesting without requiring repetition, such as the old SWG 'farms' and 'energy' collectors which required players to view maps, note trends, explore, and optimize their machinery in order to succeed. Resources can be 'mined' by capturing control points in combat, rather than by clicking on a rock 1,000,000 times.

 

 

Good post, and this last paragraph is exactly what I was thinkg while reading it.

Remove the tasks that are so repetitve and mind numbing that macros are not viable.

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

Originally posted by kedoremos

Now that Adventurine has said it's okay to macro away from guard towers, don't worry, by the time you get into the game, everyone who pre-ordered will have max. magic skills.

I'm not trolling, actually. I am exaggerating a little but I've seen the evidence myself: people are open about the fact they're macroing their skills. Hell, over half of the people in one of the polls I saw were people saying they do or will macro.

Don't even think about getting into a debate with me about what a macro is vs. a bot or anything. That's a waste of time and you know it. In a game where you can skill yourself by simply pressing a button under cover of safety with very little chance of dying, the intricate differences between 'macro' and 'bot' are moot at best.
 

As a frame of reference, I pre-ordered and I can play the release game right now.

Also: there is nothing in the game that kicks you for being AFK. You heard me right: you can AFK level your Rest, Run, or Swim without using anything other than the DFO client.

These are serious issues.

The fact a game mechanic enables or inadvertantly encourages macroing..not the developers or the creators of the company... but the mechanics itself speaks volumes how little thought out this system is.

People are brainwashed into thinking that these highly educated people able to create an MMO can't make fatal mistakes you really don't have to look further than Shadowbane. Great concept and very interesting classes. A thief that can actually steal items from players..how awesome. The only problem is people spent insane amount of "gold" and man hours to build these great cities only to have them burnt down in one night when the guilds were asleep. Once that started to happen people left in very big numbers. The result?. A free game with an annual character wipe. They had to make it free because the whole system they created was extremely flawed. I am seeing some of the same trends in DFO as well. it may never end the way of Shadowbane but i see more similarities than differences

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

 

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

I agree, its like reading a hint book when playing the old day RPGs, you know the story, the know the plots, the twist, you know the linear shortest route to the end of the plot, you have no intention of exploring going thru the pains, dying trying and so on.  It becomes a movie.

But my point is, why should I subscribe to a game so designed as DF? In which my main source of entertainment is grinding skills before I feel strong to go out and fight?  In PVE games, i start low and the mobs in that zone are in proportion.  In DF i start low and I face fully geared and skilled gankers right upon first log in.  Is this a game worth subs?  If not there is no poison.

If the developers cannot make a game I enjoy, they failed.  Not my fault.  If people does not enjoy the way the developers intend ppl to play, the developer need to relook at their design philosophy.  They want to force ppl to grind so they can earn sub money?  This is just short of robbery.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Die_Scream

Originally posted by Pumpkinhero

Macroing is "available", and that's quite a difference. Those of you who won't do it out self rightousness, be my guess, but the fact is, everything gets maxed, sooner or later. If you take the long road or the express one, the end result is the same, in the end it doesn't matter.

From the developer's point of view (and bottom line) the difference means months of subscription money.

When people max out in a very short time in an MMO, they leave. They get the carrot in a week or a month, then..no more carrot. Until an expensive to develop expansion is released.

 

So a developer develops and sells a game in which they hope ppl sit in front of the computer for months pushing the same button?  Hmm quite an ingenious developer, and we are supposed to respect them?

 

...erm...Yes. That is exactly what MMO devs want. Obviously, no MMO has you hitting one button...except MACRO games, where you assigned a bunch of binds to one key. Like this one apparently(?).

I never said to respect them, I'm saying that any game with shortcuts to the top, will have players reaching the top in a very short time. That, is poison to a subscription based game.

 

I agree, its like reading a hint book when playing the old day RPGs, you know the story, the know the plots, the twist, you know the linear shortest route to the end of the plot, you have no intention of exploring going thru the pains, dying trying and so on.  It becomes a movie.

But my point is, why should I subscribe to a game so designed as DF? In which my main source of entertainment is grinding skills before I feel strong to go out and fight?  In PVE games, i start low and the mobs in that zone are in proportion.  In DF i start low and I face fully geared and skilled gankers right upon first log in.  Is this a game worth subs?  If not there is no poison.

If the developers cannot make a game I enjoy, they failed.  Not my fault.  If people does not enjoy the way the developers intend ppl to play, the developer need to relook at their design philosophy.  They want to force ppl to grind so they can earn sub money?  This is just short of robbery.

That was the problem UO faced back in the day before the split. Players would start an account and step out into the world only to get ganked and looted. The game went from a fun sandbox game to the virtual equiv of dropping a bar of soap in a prison shower. People who tried it said "F this" and went somewhere else. Those who played stayed in town macroing their skills up so they could at least walk out of town and have a fair chance at making it down the road.

They then split the world in two at the request of the playerbase (though the whole hardcore pvp crowd wont admit this part) so those who didnt want to have anything to do with PvP could play the game without getting ganked by the rofltards (rofltard was a name given to most griefers due to them killing you and spamming 'ROFL!')

Also the skill system was revamped due to players and macroing. Gaining skills got easier to do without macros, but by then it was too late and macro'ers were just able to max up faster than before (13 hours to GM)

To fyrewall, no more quoting, I reply here.

I have my share of UO days, when we all start exploring (on a slow modem lol) and lack to hell.  When we have to walk up to talk to someone by regional say, only to have him walked away when I finally got my say typed out.  Lags lags lags.

It was fun till ganking becomes the norm.  It was over for me.  Ever since that I do not want to be part of any ffa pvp fest, as the bad players drive out the good players (good as in community sense, not in gameskill), and all ffa pvp servers can retain are gankers.

DF looks like another weak attempt to pool gankers.  Won't last long if that is true as the gankers leave when there is no one to gank but themselves.  Its just so much fun dueling while hoping for a newbie to log on.  Other pvp games at least got some form of PVE to waste time, from what I hear, DF got nothing.

If the developer cannot provide some miraclous recovery fast, they will sink when the hype dies.  Tabula Rasa anyone?