Thinking back on all the MMOs I've played, the most social being EQ and early DAOC, where not only was there lots of grouping, but also, dungeon camping, where players could chat between pulls.  I think quest driven grouping kills the social aspect.  And obviously a lack of grouping kills it, too.

Another thing is incentives to be part of a guild, an active part, where you work together to accomplish things, be it keep defense in RvR, or epic dungeon raids, or just helping members do things they can't do alone.  Makes people a lot more social, when they get to know each other, doing things like that together.

Otherwise, you just get the chatty people spamming guild and global channels, but I don't know if I'd call that social.  It doesn't have any feeling of camaraderie or anything important like that, the way guilds and groups working together does.

..but back to why even a lot of group content fails, now so much of it is quest based, it's just too temporary, too rushed.  People just join and part ways, hardly even getting the chance to speak to each other.  More of just a hassle than a social element at all.

Originally posted by Kartuhn

Originally posted by demc

You know what just dawned on me may actually be the reason the games have taken a turn on the social aspect. Back in the early days of the game industry a GM was always on and chatting or watching for players that were offensive. They give a warning and the the boot to anyone that was not playing nice.

 

think about that a minute old timers.

 

What is missing in todays MMOs?

 

GMs

 

Good point and perhaps dead on the money. The last game I played that actually had real GMs who actively enforced behavioral problems was Anarchy Online and as good as they were it was still up to the person or persons offended to make a complaint and copy/paste the chat log in private discussion with the GM. You're right about active GMs monitoring chat and I miss those days. I remember laughing when I would see someone go off in chat like they do these days because you KNEW it was all over for the bozo and the weeds were never allowed to grow and choke out the social landscape of the games.

 

Edit: One game currently using GMs is Perfect World International and they actively monitor World chat although the rules are very lax by comparrison to the "good old days". Still, they do a good job and the community is A+. Could be a sign that your thought is quite correct.

AO went the lines of no GM eventually though. There were times when you could not even find a ARK. My last log on to AO  was September last year and that game also changed.

/fixes the sentence to hopefully make sense

Originally posted by Vhaln

Thinking back on all the MMOs I've played, the most social being EQ and early DAOC, where not only was there lots of grouping, but also, dungeon camping, where players could chat between pulls.  I think quest driven grouping kills the social aspect.  And obviously a lack of grouping kills it, too.

Nod, which is why MMO need to be slow to accommodate for socializing. Make them into FPS and no one talks anymore.

People complain about travel times and complain about making groups, but many don't realise that it's actually that...the timesinks...that made a lot of the socializing possible.

I'm not in favor of really excessive timesinks, but I am in favor of slow tactical combat like EQ or for certain timesinks that enhance socializing.

The WAR / AoC / Aion button smashing is just , might as well play an FPS then, because you have no time to chat usually.

Originally posted by demc

Originally posted by Kartuhn

Originally posted by demc

You know what just dawned on me may actually be the reason the games have taken a turn on the social aspect. Back in the early days of the game industry a GM was always on and chatting or watching for players that were offensive. They give a warning and the the boot to anyone that was not playing nice.

 

think about that a minute old timers.

 

What is missing in todays MMOs?

 

GMs

 

Good point and perhaps dead on the money. The last game I played that actually had real GMs who actively enforced behavioral problems was Anarchy Online and as good as they were it was still up to the person or persons offended to make a complaint and copy/paste the chat log in private discussion with the GM. You're right about active GMs monitoring chat and I miss those days. I remember laughing when I would see someone go off in chat like they do these days because you KNEW it was all over for the bozo and the weeds were never allowed to grow and choke out the social landscape of the games.

 

Edit: One game currently using GMs is Perfect World International and they actively monitor World chat although the rules are very lax by comparrison to the "good old days". Still, they do a good job and the community is A+. Could be a sign that your thought is quite correct.

 

AO went the lines of no GM eventually though. there were times whan you could not even find a ARK last log on to AO was September last year and that game also changed

Yeah. That game provided for me more hours of pure fun, agony, mind-numbing challenges, thrills and real friendships than any game I've played before or since and it hurt to give it up. Funcom took the game down a new road and, sadly, killed some of the best gaming experiences to be found anywhere. I was just sitting here thinking about kiting Hecklers in the Shadowlands with my NT! What a rush that was! I miss AO deeply but I'm glad I had the chance to play it in it's heyday. For all it's faults, past and present, it will always hold a special place in my gamers heart of hearts and I'll always have the memories of my guildies and buddies there too. Saying goobye to AO was like going to a friends funeral but the game had changed so much over time that it just wasn't the same game I'd fallen in love with nor the community as friendly and welcoming as they used to be.

When I first started playing AO which was about 4 years ago, The very first day in game I made a couple great and long time friends because a ARK got us together. I was so lost and just standing there and this green name came by and asked me if I was new. I said I was and lost as hell. He gave me a name to send a tell to which was another friend of his. WOW That was sooooo different I was just floored by the help.

I started playing with some friends of the friend and built a friends list like no other except DAoC. Sadly all the friends started filtering out of the game after they hit the cap and I was like well ya know.. things had changed a lot..

AND..

I STILL HATE HWALL! LOL

Originally posted by demc

When I first started playing AO which was about 4 years ago, The very first day in game I made a couple great and long time friends because a ARK got us together. I was so lost and just standing there and this green name came by and asked me if I was new. I said I was and lost as hell. He gave me a name to send a tell to which was another friend of his. WOW That was sooooo different I was just floored by the help.

I started playing with some friends of the friend and built a friends list like no other except DAoC. Sadly all the friends started filtering out of the game after they hit the cap and I was like well ya know.. things had changed a lot..

That was one of the coolest parts of Funcoms approach to the game community. They actually got involved. When I first played AO I had the same experience, almost verbatim, and I too was floored by it. In that moment of time where an ARK made me feel welcome and personally took a few moments to get me going made me feel special in a way I had never imagined any game company even caring to do for it's players.

So many other comments in this thread hit on exactly why there is so little room for getting to know anyone in games anymore, questing, solo content and being rushed by group content... they all make very valid points. I can relate to each in regards to AO in that there was content of every sort and you could go from running solo content and questing to group farming insanely difficult mobs but there was always the opportunity to take a much needed break and just shoot the breeze without missing a thing. After running around the crater (I can't even recall the names of the mobs anymore!  ) killing hundreds of them we would all sit out of range of the aggro and laugh our heads off over close calls and the enevitable "oh shit!" moments.

There just isn't the same opportunities in so many games out there to get to know anyone and no reason other than convenience when you do. There's nothing that bonds people together through shared challenges since so many games have everything boiled down to specific jobs... a tank is a tank, the cleric heals... we all do our job and then it's just over. AO never felt like a job. I had a role to perform according to my skillset but questing wasn't like hitting up a hooker and going home for the night afterwards (pardon the analogy). The interactions always allowed everyone to shine and stand out in their own way and the inter-dependencies of the teams make-up made it so that we all palyed a significant role in the level of enjoyment that each of us shared.

Games like AO (way back when) that granted it's players those opportunities definitely had a huge impact on the social atmosphere of the game and I have to agree with nearly every point made in this thread to this point.

Honestly i think that in some respects the players and the game manufacturers killed the social aspects of gaming. I started with original EQ you didn't group unless you wanted to but you still made lots of friends in chat and kept them. Forced Grouping, Forced Raiding to attain end of game items or visit end of game zones, and Instant Gratification all played their part in the downfall. However the developers were giving (the "people"/ the vocal majority) us what "we" were asking for to the downfall of the social gaming.

Originally posted by jpowell

Honestly i think that in some respects the players and the game manufacturers killed the social aspects of gaming. I started with original EQ you didn't group unless you wanted to but you still made lots of friends in chat and kept them. Forced Grouping, Forced Raiding to attain end of game items or visit end of game zones, and Instant Gratification all played their part in the downfall. However the developers were giving (the "people"/ the vocal majority) us what "we" were asking for to the downfall of the social gaming.

True again. "The squeeky wheel gets the grease" as is said. From nerfing PVP for the carebears (god I hate to use the term) to unbalancing the games to satisfy the soloists all it's done is turn us players into NPCs with no more validity as individuals than we can provide at the next Boss battle.

Players and devs killed it because the players didn't want to be dependent upon other players for fun and the devs gave it to them.

Originally posted by Kartuhn

 

That was one of the coolest parts of Funcoms approach to the game community. They actually got involved. When I first played AO I had the same experience, almost verbatim, and I too was floored by it. In that moment of time where an ARK made me feel welcome and personally took a few moments to get me going made me feel special in a way I had never imagined any game company even caring to do for it's players.

So many other comments in this thread hit on exactly why there is so little room for getting to know anyone in games anymore, questing, solo content and being rushed by group content... they all make very valid points. I can relate to each in regards to AO in that there was content of every sort and you could go from running solo content and questing to group farming insanely difficult mobs but there was always the opportunity to take a much needed break and just shoot the breeze without missing a thing. After running around the crater (I can't even recall the names of the mobs anymore!  ) killing hundreds of them we would all sit out of range of the aggro and laugh our heads off over close calls and the enevitable "oh shit!" moments.

There just isn't the same opportunities in so many games out there to get to know anyone and no reason other than convenience when you do. There's nothing that bonds people together through shared challenges since so many games have everything boiled down to specific jobs... a tank is a tank, the cleric heals... we all do our job and then it's just over. AO never felt like a job. I had a role to perform according to my skillset but questing wasn't like hitting up a hooker and going home for the night afterwards (pardon the analogy). The interactions always allowed everyone to shine and stand out in their own way and the inter-dependencies of the teams make-up made it so that we all palyed a significant role in the level of enjoyment that each of us shared.

Games like AO (way back when) that granted it's players those opportunities definitely had a huge impact on the social atmosphere of the game and I have to agree with nearly every point made in this thread to this point.

hum. yep that is it. Every point here is exactly what has changed the MMO and is destroying the social aspect and you know what? We kind of all are to blame cause we all kind of asked for the changes.

That is kind of err.. scary.

wow! This thread is a eye opener.

Originally posted by Theocritus

    I think you guys have hit on quite a few things that have contributed....One thing I know has really changed it is that there isnt much downtime in games anymore........When I started in EQ1 back in 2000 there was alot of downtime.......Now combine downtime with group play and you will have more chat.........Solo quests and no downtime have really hurt the genre no doubt, at least from a social perspective........

Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play.  And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.

Originally posted by HDomni

Originally posted by Theocritus

    I think you guys have hit on quite a few things that have contributed....One thing I know has really changed it is that there isnt much downtime in games anymore........When I started in EQ1 back in 2000 there was alot of downtime.......Now combine downtime with group play and you will have more chat.........Solo quests and no downtime have really hurt the genre no doubt, at least from a social perspective........

 

Quoted for the absolute truth. I can remember playing SWG years ago standing at a starport waiting 10 minutes for the ship to take us to another town/planet etc and everybody was very social something always happened. I went back a few months ago now the ships are there in 1 min and very few to none say a thing or no one is around. I have played wow since open beta up january of this year and it was always GO GO GO the only reason I continued to play this game was a handfull of friends play.  And out of the timeframe I played WoW I made maybe 6 or 7 friends and this was at the begining of release when MMOs were not know very well by the general public.

When ya think about it all of this is pretty much  reflection of how the real world has evolved round us in our daily lives. Decades ago you actually got to talk to a real person when you called a company for whatever reason... now you get voice-recognition software menus. Decades ago when you went for gas in your car someone came out and pumped it for you and made change...now you swipe a card and do it yourself. Decades ago you used to have to break out a board game and play it with friends or family...now you just flip a switch, left-click an icon and you're in a whole new world that has fake people talk to you and give you something to do.

I just had the craziest notion to step outside and go find my old baseball mitt but I can't think of anyone who would be there to toss the ball to.... Yep. We're evolving as a species. We can even go have children without having sex and the television makes a great babysitter until they can flip a switch, left-click an icon and enter their own new world.

Dunno if I'm all that happy with the prospect though

And you are right. But I dont understand why games are suppose to follow this type of advancement. A game last I check was meant to place you in a alternate life, a fantasy. By trying to match todays world I dont quite understand. Hell im better off playing a single player game, I get more depth in it then I do in just about any MMO i have tried recently.  Really I had more fun exploring a world and running into monsters that ripped me to pieces and having to ASK for advice then having a arrow point me in the right directions without having to communicate with anybody.

The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers.

When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere.  Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged.  People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish.

Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:

• swear all the time - every second word is a swear word
• are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face
• will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete
• fill global and local channels with with personal conversations
• some take long breaks for smokes, etc
• some do not take any breaks
• some bag other players all the time

A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died.  He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time.  A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller.  The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour.  If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well.

In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes.  Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments.

My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.

Didn't bother reading all the replies so if this has already been mentioned then excuse me.

This one is easy. 3 things has ruined socialization

1. Introduction of solo quest grinds

2. Instances.

3. Lack of beneficial buffs that has a great impact on advancing through the game.

-Explained further

1* 10 years ago you got the best exp from joining a full group grinding mobs. Because this was a tedious way of getting your levels, people would pass the time between pulls to actually talk to eachother in the chat.

2* 10 years ago when there was no such thing as instances you would meet other people in dungeons. On your way to the deepest part of the dungeon where you were to replace the healer, you would run into other groups on the way. You would buff them, heal them and even resurrect if needed. Sometimes a group in another spot would be in trouble and you could run up and help them. There are plenty of other examples how you got to know other players in these non instanced games.

3* Because we no longer have great buffs to offer people such as faster travel buffs. Better mana regenerative buffs. Faster attack buffs. There really isn't anything in place where you can stop and help somebody out with a good boost to their tedious grind. Nor is there anything to help people with at different camp spots. This is in part tied into introduction of quest grinds.If you don't have any tools to help other players out then that also kills an aspect of meeting new friends.

These three things alone has done more damage than anything else. Communities haven't changed. The games has changed. Regardless if quests or mob grinding is a preference there is no denying it had a great impact on killing the one thing that would make people talk to eachother. The fact games has become so solo friendly you see more and more people less inclined to socialize

Originally posted by thorwood

The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers.

When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere.  Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged.  People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish.

Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:

• swear all the time - every second word is a swear word
• are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face
• will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete
• fill global and local channels with with personal conversations
• some take long breaks for smokes, etc
• some do not take any breaks
• some bag other players all the time

A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died.  He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time.  A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller.  The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour.  If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well.

In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes.  Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments.

My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.

This is exactly what we were talking about eariler in the thread about no GM in game. In the old days the offending parties would have been banned.  The GM kept the game in what is called 'the spirt of gameplay'

Originally posted by thorwood

The community has changed. It is the players that have killed the community, not the developers.

When I first played Everquest, I was mostly in a family friendly atmosphere.  Kids played with their parents and good sportsmanship was encouraged.  People did not fill local channels in busy zones with rubbish.

Now I find in all MMO's that too many people:

• swear all the time - every second word is a swear word
• are rude - I wonder if they speak the same way to people face to face
• will join groups on misssions that they know they do not have the time to complete
• fill global and local channels with with personal conversations
• some take long breaks for smokes, etc
• some do not take any breaks
• some bag other players all the time

A couple of nights ago on LoTRO I watched a bunch of creeps (creepy creepside creeps) on Elendilmir server bully a player. One player taunted the victim using the fact that their mother had died.  He/she followed the victim around using "laughing at you emote" for some time.  A friend of the bullies volunteered to (falsely) report the victim as a gold seller.  The excuse given for the despicable behaviour was it is only a game and that the victim did not fit in with the community. Sadly no one (including me) spoke out against this behaviour.  If you speak out, the community just comes down on you as well.

In WoW the local channels were constantly spammed by Chuck Norris jokes.  Offensive comments were used by trolls to generate arguments.

My impression now is that grouping only works with real life friends.

The original premise for MMOs was to give people a new way to get together and discover a new world(s) and work together for common goals. They were intended at the outset to be social constructs. It's always been the responsibility of the community to police itself using the same social guidelines that we find acceptable in our daily lives when interacting with people and those guidelines grew from the values we were taught to abide by: courtesy, respect, fairplay and, as said, good sportsmanship.

The sad thing now is that those people who once took an active role in keeping the sanity of the game communities together and civil have been driven into the underground or have left the games entirely because they cannot abide by nor tolerate what is now considered acceptable behavior. Such reprehensible behavior as you have witnessed and the fact that you cannot do anything because you will suffer consequences yourself is now all too common. The bullies and the unrestrained have gained the upper hand all "good manners" are reserved for our very small inner circle of friends and we are forced to ever smaller and smaller circles.

Once the values that are necessary for polite and amicable socializing are no longer important to the majority of that community there is no way possible to reintroduce it without being "tarred and feathered" by the status quo. Gaming is what it is for good or bad and we have done it as much to ourselves as we have done it to each other and the rewards of it are what you saw the bullies do and your helplessness in the matter. There is no way back and when we enter a new game we can only hope for the best. Social atmosphere not the least of it.

And to think I was seriously entertaining the thought of a lifetime membership for LoTRO! Guess that goes back into the "wait and see" pile.

 

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Well MMOs are no longer limited to the nerdy niche that inhabited them earlier, now more regular gamers play them, most of which have no desire to play the game to make friends.

I don't think newer MMOs are easier though, since there was nothing really hard about the older ones they just forced you to group to do anything in a timely manner and even then took forever to go places and level.  But going back to the group heavy focus won't make the communities like ye olde MMOs because there is no going back.  Your best bet is to find a really niche game, like Ryzom, which is unknown and unappealing to a wider audience, if you like the game then you will probably like the community because it is comprised of people who think like you.

I don't think WoW has a bad community, it just has a particular style, particularly for those people that like Chuck Norris jokes and visit 4chan.  Exclusion makes the best communities, when people that all think similarly get together to do something they tend to enjoy themselves more. 

 

OMG blasphemy... whats wrong with Chuck Norris jokes?h Ok, I guess he is a little old now, and most people have turned towards either Britney Spear jokes or Paris Hilton.. she is a joke in herself, but... dont you dare talk badly about our hero Chuck Norris !!

Things that have depleted the social element in recent MMO's:

1.  Reduction of downtime (you need time to talk; cannot do this if you are busy mashing hotkeys)

2.  Increased soloability of gameplay (you need "someone" to talk to)

3.  Poor chat system (have to be able to read what folks are saying)

4.  Vent-like systems.  Arguably, Vent and similar systems detracts from roleplaying, and in fast-paced combat, simply degenerates into commands, such as a sports coach might give to players via a mike.  

A great post and alot of good answers :) And Ive to agree that it is the players fault that it looks like this. We said what we wanted and the developers gave us that. And hopefully next great game in this genre is a game that puts social aspects in the frontier and not fat loot. Hopefully there will be mechanisms in the game that force pepole to enjoy the virtual world togheter and also force pepole to behave like a gotdamn human being :)

I for myself often see mmos as an refleaction of the modern world. For example a teenage boy sees how angry (in diffrent ways) his family gets when they cant afford the same standards as the next door family. He logs into his virtual world and links his epic loot in /general to create the same feeling for others, greed. Its sadly the poor mans way (often pepole in the lower teenage)