Originally posted by shadow417

 Well, Darkfall is doing good, They are listening to the cummunity so it will be good (i think).

listening to them community? They kicked everyone out of the forums, they don't care what you think...lol....

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

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Originally posted by qazyman

It will be interesting to see how Darkfall resist these calls. If it's ever released and if it's a sandbox.

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LOL! Way to keep up with current events. It released yesterday ;)

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

At times yes EVE can be frustrating, you can actually rage at your machine because of a loss....but dude that first time i was minding my own business and some twit decided to attack for no reason than his ego and I blasted him into oblivon with one broadside....sigh....I was hooked.......

I'm not even that smart and I've been to a billion isk (game currency).....and back to being poor.  I've quit, looked for better, found none, and returned. I've been in great Alliances that have failed, and now am chewing on the corpse of the greatest game alliance that was. Been from Jita to the very edge of the universe. Hated the game, Loved the game.

If a game makes you passionate about it, gotta be good.  If a single character can change the history of the game.....gotta be things to do. 

Not saying it is your game. But it sure is mine.

Proud Member of TGRADS

Originally posted by Taram

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Originally posted by qazyman

It will be interesting to see how Darkfall resist these calls. If it's ever released and if it's a sandbox.

 

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LOL! Way to keep up with current events. It released yesterday ;)

A day late and a dollar short....story of my life.
 

In my defense I was busy playing EVE 

Sandbox games are only "unpopular" because

A) they are a bit less accessible and intimidating when you are new

and

B) Becuse there has been a HUGE LACK of them in recent years.

That said, in response to the OP, the main thing I think people dislike about the game is simply the "click to move" movement of the game.

I know when I first played Eve, I was expecting to zoom around Wing Commander style, and was a bit dissapointed.

Dont get me wrong, I do like Eve and I have 2 active accounts right now. Just saying that the movement and game mechanics are not exactly what most people expect. The gameplay actually plays out more like a RTS game then an MMO.

The final thing people dont always like is that it is definately not a game for "instant action". Sometimes it is a long time before you find a good fight, which makes it take alot of work for new players to actually find some enjoyable action so that they know what the game really has to offer.

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

While I agree with what you said, I do think there is a major problem for Eve. It's not that you can "never catch up", but the major problem is that many players can not experience what the game is "really" like on their trials. Just raising learning skills to what all the "new player guides" advise will take up nearly an entire trial. This does not include that new players actually DO need to raise some base-skills to be effective, in PvE or PvP.

For PvE there is the issue of combat pilots not being able to efficiently make cash for the first month or 2, and a huge amount of (boring) mission farming. For PvP money isnt really an issue as much as frigates being one of the harder ships to efficiently pilot, not knowing which skills to train because they dont know what role they want to fit, and not being able to do anything solo as a new player. Corps are not too welcoming to characters on trial, and sure there is FW but a noob has to do quite a bit of grinding before they can join - which means skilling for PvE for a couple weeks if they dont have help (although buying the box will address this next month...)

They are changing the "new player experience" in the new expansion which is going to start youa t only 50k SP, but you will get double SP until 1.6mill. I think this is not going to help things at all and only make this problem worse.

Right now you can make a new character and be somewhat-efficient in a frigate. Youll have a few lvl 5 skills, which leaves you ready for t2 small weapons or drones depending on race. Drone interfacing for example gives 20% damage per point, so lvl 3 alone is 60% damage boost. While t2 weapons wont be a huge boost of damage for a new player, the real issue here is that they are far cheaper then going with Named weapons, and money is an issue for new pilots.

Once the expansion drops... they lose all of this. Sure they have double SP, but it will be approx TWO WEEKS before they have those same lvl 5 skills! This is actually NERFING new characters effectiveness! This is going to hurt trial accounts VERY badly. Their basically losing 750-850k SP. And sure, after that htey will have double SP for the next 800k. But think about it - if you make a new character new, you will be at 1.6mill approximately the same  time as that new player reaches 1.6 mill!  The only difference is they will be less effective for their first few weeks!

The game would be much, much more popular and welcoming to new players if they addressed this problem, and I think it is very sad that their "fix" is addressing the wrong problem, and making the real problem worse.

I made an in depth post with more precise numbers about this issue - here is a link - www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2653134#2653134

Check post #10

I have to agree with this. So many times I've tried to get into eve as a new player, and just got discouraged...

It would help if solo pvp was somewhat feasible, but it's not, and especially not for the new player. New players in MMO's don't want to jump into some guild as a noob because they bring ZERO VALUE. They want to get their feet wet in PvP first by themself and gain some value and then bring it to a group of people so they don't feel like some homeless bum coming into someones house. When you go into a game like WoW, or EQ2, or any other MMO, you can without much care just go jump into a BG, or go outside the safe city limits and get your feet wet... In EVE, for noobs, it's like "uh, I gotta config all this stuff, and I gotta find where to go, and uh, I need help? WHAT?!!!?? *cancel trial*".

There's a reason there's endless posts of people saying they've tried the trial multiple times. It's because the game has great potential, but it needs to be tweaked for noobs.

newbs in eve are welcome in lots of different corps and do bring value to pvp fleets, we always need tacklers and scouts, hell a newbie can be in an ewar cruiser within a day of starting.

the new player experience is being tweaked in the next patch and has undergone several revisions recently, however, EVE will not hold your hand and point you to the next group of dire rats, if it did, it wouldnt be the game we all love.

actually was thinking about playing EVE.But being that the new stuff coming is gonna change a lot for new starting players and the debate about it scares me a bit..

I mean players saying they will blow all noobs out of space because of the changes sorta scares me..

bobm111 

... that logic is pretty odd. where are people saying this?

protip: highsec space is not being removed in the expansion.

Originally posted by bobm111

actually was thinking about playing EVE.But being that the new stuff coming is gonna change a lot for new starting players and the debate about it scares me a bit..

 

I mean players saying they will blow all noobs out of space because of the changes sorta scares me..

 

bobm111 

Don't be afraid, If you don't want to pvp you can get around being blown up.

My brother in law stays 100% in high sec and has a ball.

He runs missions in fleets and runs mining Ops with his casual corp.

in four months hes logged in everyday, he loves the game.

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Originally posted by SpyridonZ

While I agree with what you said, I do think there is a major problem for Eve. It's not that you can "never catch up", but the major problem is that many players can not experience what the game is "really" like on their trials. Just raising learning skills to what all the "new player guides" advise will take up nearly an entire trial. This does not include that new players actually DO need to raise some base-skills to be effective, in PvE or PvP.

Agreed, focusing only on Learning skills during the trial is likely not the right way to go. You can always come back to them if you decide to stay beyond the trial.

For PvE there is the issue of combat pilots not being able to efficiently make cash for the first month or 2, and a huge amount of (boring) mission farming.

I disagree. My first few months playing I had no trouble making enough ISK via missions to replace and/or upgrade my ships as I advanced through each level of missions.

For PvP money isnt really an issue as much as frigates being one of the harder ships to efficiently pilot, not knowing which skills to train because they dont know what role they want to fit, and not being able to do anything solo as a new player. Corps are not too welcoming to characters on trial, and sure there is FW but a noob has to do quite a bit of grinding before they can join - which means skilling for PvE for a couple weeks if they dont have help (although buying the box will address this next month...)

I'm not sure what experience you've had with Corps not excepting newer players but it's too bad that you apparently didn't have a good time with it. This also simply was not my, nor the majority of folks, experience. There are many many corps out there specifically for newer players and the training/supporting of such.

They are changing the "new player experience" in the new expansion which is going to start youa t only 50k SP, but you will get double SP until 1.6mill. I think this is not going to help things at all and only make this problem worse.
Right now you can make a new character and be somewhat-efficient in a frigate. Youll have a few lvl 5 skills, which leaves you ready for t2 small weapons or drones depending on race. Drone interfacing for example gives 20% damage per point, so lvl 3 alone is 60% damage boost. While t2 weapons wont be a huge boost of damage for a new player, the real issue here is that they are far cheaper then going with Named weapons, and money is an issue for new pilots.
Once the expansion drops... they lose all of this. Sure they have double SP, but it will be approx TWO WEEKS before they have those same lvl 5 skills! This is actually NERFING new characters effectiveness! This is going to hurt trial accounts VERY badly. Their basically losing 750-850k SP. And sure, after that htey will have double SP for the next 800k. But think about it - if you make a new character new, you will be at 1.6mill approximately the same time as that new player reaches 1.6 mill! The only difference is they will be less effective for their first few weeks!
The game would be much, much more popular and welcoming to new players if they addressed this problem, and I think it is very sad that their "fix" is addressing the wrong problem, and making the real problem worse.

When I started the "new player experience" was non-existent. What did we get, 8000 SP to start? I mean seriously... You'll get no sympathy from me on this one. I remember being thrilled when I finally broke 1 Million SP....

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Originally posted by Baseline

I have to agree with this. So many times I've tried to get into eve as a new player, and just got discouraged...
It would help if solo pvp was somewhat feasible, but it's not, and especially not for the new player. New players in MMO's don't want to jump into some guild as a noob because they bring ZERO VALUE. They want to get their feet wet in PvP first by themself and gain some value and then bring it to a group of people so they don't feel like some homeless bum coming into someones house. When you go into a game like WoW, or EQ2, or any other MMO, you can without much care just go jump into a BG, or go outside the safe city limits and get your feet wet... In EVE, for noobs, it's like "uh, I gotta config all this stuff, and I gotta find where to go, and uh, I need help? WHAT?!!!?? *cancel trial*".
There's a reason there's endless posts of people saying they've tried the trial multiple times. It's because the game has great potential, but it needs to be tweaked for noobs.

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Originally posted by kovah

 

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Originally posted by SpyridonZ

 

While I agree with what you said, I do think there is a major problem for Eve. It's not that you can "never catch up", but the major problem is that many players can not experience what the game is "really" like on their trials. Just raising learning skills to what all the "new player guides" advise will take up nearly an entire trial. This does not include that new players actually DO need to raise some base-skills to be effective, in PvE or PvP.

Agreed, focusing only on Learning skills during the trial is likely not the right way to go. You can always come back to them if you decide to stay beyond the trial.

For PvE there is the issue of combat pilots not being able to efficiently make cash for the first month or 2, and a huge amount of (boring) mission farming.

I disagree. My first few months playing I had no trouble making enough ISK via missions to replace and/or upgrade my ships as I advanced through each level of missions.

For PvP money isnt really an issue as much as frigates being one of the harder ships to efficiently pilot, not knowing which skills to train because they dont know what role they want to fit, and not being able to do anything solo as a new player. Corps are not too welcoming to characters on trial, and sure there is FW but a noob has to do quite a bit of grinding before they can join - which means skilling for PvE for a couple weeks if they dont have help (although buying the box will address this next month...)

I'm not sure what experience you've had with Corps not excepting newer players but it's too bad that you apparently didn't have a good time with it. This also simply was not my, nor the majority of folks, experience. There are many many corps out there specifically for newer players and the training/supporting of such.

They are changing the "new player experience" in the new expansion which is going to start youa t only 50k SP, but you will get double SP until 1.6mill. I think this is not going to help things at all and only make this problem worse.
Right now you can make a new character and be somewhat-efficient in a frigate. Youll have a few lvl 5 skills, which leaves you ready for t2 small weapons or drones depending on race. Drone interfacing for example gives 20% damage per point, so lvl 3 alone is 60% damage boost. While t2 weapons wont be a huge boost of damage for a new player, the real issue here is that they are far cheaper then going with Named weapons, and money is an issue for new pilots.
Once the expansion drops... they lose all of this. Sure they have double SP, but it will be approx TWO WEEKS before they have those same lvl 5 skills! This is actually NERFING new characters effectiveness! This is going to hurt trial accounts VERY badly. Their basically losing 750-850k SP. And sure, after that htey will have double SP for the next 800k. But think about it - if you make a new character new, you will be at 1.6mill approximately the same time as that new player reaches 1.6 mill! The only difference is they will be less effective for their first few weeks!
The game would be much, much more popular and welcoming to new players if they addressed this problem, and I think it is very sad that their "fix" is addressing the wrong problem, and making the real problem worse.

When I started the "new player experience" was non-existent. What did we get, 8000 SP to start? I mean seriously... You'll get no sympathy from me on this one. I remember being thrilled when I finally broke 1 Million SP....

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Originally posted by Baseline

 

I have to agree with this. So many times I've tried to get into eve as a new player, and just got discouraged...
It would help if solo pvp was somewhat feasible, but it's not, and especially not for the new player. New players in MMO's don't want to jump into some guild as a noob because they bring ZERO VALUE. They want to get their feet wet in PvP first by themself and gain some value and then bring it to a group of people so they don't feel like some homeless bum coming into someones house. When you go into a game like WoW, or EQ2, or any other MMO, you can without much care just go jump into a BG, or go outside the safe city limits and get your feet wet... In EVE, for noobs, it's like "uh, I gotta config all this stuff, and I gotta find where to go, and uh, I need help? WHAT?!!!?? *cancel trial*".
There's a reason there's endless posts of people saying they've tried the trial multiple times. It's because the game has great potential, but it needs to be tweaked for noobs.

---

I'm just curious... What happens in WoW when a new player join a BG... well, I guess they wouldn't be new cause you have to be level 10 before you can join the first BG... But, anyway... let's say that "new" player stands back at the flag and defends it solo... What happens to him when 2 or more enemies show up? Oh, that's right - SLAUGHTERED. Fair enough... So, new player runs outside of any city all by their lonesum to "get their feet wet" and who should turn the corner? 15 level 80s from the enemy faction... Yep. Your comparrisons fail my good man.

 

New players can (and DO) play plenty of roles in corps in PvP. Yes, personally I would like more solo PvP in Eve as well, and it does exist but to find it you have to learn to evade the zergs that are running everywhere.

It's only been said a thousand times but @ your: "It's because the game has great potential, but it needs to be tweaked for noobs." Eve does not hold your hand. Eve is harsh and unforgiving. If that does not appeal to some people then some people have the simple option of not playing. If you recognize that Eve is a great game then you suffer through and learn what you need to do so without waiting on the Obama admini... err, Eve developers to give you a hand-out...

gl hf
07

 

 

I just want to clear a couple things up.

I think some people who never played may have gotten the wrong idea from my post. I DO think Eve is a game that new players should try - I didnt mean to discourage anyone.

But I would tell new players not to get discouraged in their first week or two playing - because at times, its sad to say but it IS easy to get bored or discouraged. Especially depending on what advice you get. That's why I gave the learning skill examples.

I want player to be fully aware that their trial will not be a fair representation of the game, because the problems I discussed are mainly during that time. I encourage you guys to stick with it and just think of the time as training where you have to learn what you can. Getting discouraged and leaving without looking back would be a shame, because by the time your trial is up you are likely getting close to learning what the game is really about.

In response to the money topic - sure you will be able to afford ur new ships etc as you work your way up ratings.... that is until you get to lvl 3's. Then you will be getting your faction standings faster then your getting the money to afford those nice new battlecruisers AND rigs. It becomes a pretty heavy grind at that point. It is fairly discouraging for new players to have to grind missions for a whole month or 2 until they can be efficient in level 4's - and it will be much longer then this if you choose a race other then Caldari or Gallente. Once you get in to level 4's BS prices are crazy, plus you have to insure it, plus you have to get rigs - it comes out to near 150mill. That is a HUGE grind for a player doing only lvl 3's that give only a couple mill per mission. Learning lvl 4's you will lose the occasional ship as well, which isnt so bad if it wasnt for the rigs being so expensive, and if your just getting in to lvl 4's those rigs ARE going to be neccessary. As with the rest of Eve, corps help alot in this instance.

Also many new players go in to the game for PvP but think they have to PvE until they can make the cash to PvP but that is not true in Eve. My suggestion is play to PvP from day 1 - plan on doing the Faction War missions instead of normal ones.

About the "new player experience thing", well if you start playing with the current one, or if you start playing in the new one in the coming expansion... I just want to make it clear to players on trial that their trial time will NOT be a good representation of what Eve really is.

I do believe one of the problems with the game is that players cant have fun on the trial, and I do think the "new experience" their adding addresses the wrong problems as I've already discussed. But I didnt tell you this so you would not play. I'm telling this so that you are aware and so you hopefully stick with the game past that, so you can experience the real fun the game has to offer.

About Corps, if there are more "noob friendly" corps nowdays that as great. But when I first played - far before FW was added and all that - it was pretty bad because any Corps that were oriented towards PvP (the reason I was playing the game) required 8-12mil SP or more. I stayed in 0.0 my first couple months and had chats with everyone I ran to and everything, and none of them had any Corps I would have been allowed to join with my SP. I also remember one common rule was no trial players allowed in Corps. That said, I hope there is more noob friendly corps, especially w/ the expansion and re-release of boxes coming up.

Corps will greatly enhance your game experience in Eve . Even if you are typically a solo player (I typically am too) find one anyway. You can make it clear you like to solo - but it is good to have people to talk to because just being in a corp with them allows them to help you even if your not playing with them at the time. They can give really good advice, they can help guide you with fittings, they may even do something like hook you up with some blueprints and teach you how to make some cash with them on a manufacture alt so you can  get established for making YOUR OWN money easier - I seen this happen a few times and it is great for new players who do not want to feel like they have to "rely on their corp mates for money".

Even if you are a new player who plans on checking out the Faction War - still find a corp. Just find a Faction War corp. For anyone who is interested in Eve's PvP, if you CANT find a corp for whatever reasons - just learn how to join the faction war and sign up as soon as possible, because you will quickly see what Eve is about. PvP players typically wont be entertained by missions for long - but once you get a taste of war and work with some war buddies the game will start to dramtically change.

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

I just want to clear a couple things up.

I think some people who never played may have gotten the wrong idea from my post. I DO think Eve is a game that new players should try - I didnt mean to discourage anyone.

But I would tell new players not to get discouraged in their first week or two playing - because at times, its sad to say but it IS easy to get bored or discouraged. Especially depending on what advice you get. That's why I gave the learning skill examples.

I want player to be fully aware that their trial will not be a fair representation of the game, because the problems I discussed are mainly during that time. I encourage you guys to stick with it and just think of the time as training where you have to learn what you can. Getting discouraged and leaving without looking back would be a shame, because by the time your trial is up you are likely getting close to learning what the game is really about.

I agree

In response to the money topic - sure you will be able to afford ur new ships etc as you work your way up ratings.... that is until you get to lvl 3's. Then you will be getting your faction standings faster then your getting the money to afford those nice new battlecruisers AND rigs. It becomes a pretty heavy grind at that point. It is fairly discouraging for new players to have to grind missions for a whole month or 2 until they can be efficient in level 4's - and it will be much longer then this if you choose a race other then Caldari or Gallente. Once you get in to level 4's BS prices are crazy, plus you have to insure it, plus you have to get rigs - it comes out to near 150mill. That is a HUGE grind for a player doing only lvl 3's that give only a couple mill per mission. Learning lvl 4's you will lose the occasional ship as well, which isnt so bad if it wasnt for the rigs being so expensive, and if your just getting in to lvl 4's those rigs ARE going to be neccessary. As with the rest of Eve, corps help alot in this instance.

Not so sure I would agree here. Saying that its a grind to just be able to do level 4s. Im sorry but 2 months time is not much considering the cash flow from 4s which IMO is too much money made too easily.  You wouldn't expect a 2 month old player to go out to 0.0 and rat hunt triple BS spawns and survive would you ? As far as rigs are concerned they are NOT needed. Sure they are nice to have if you have the money to spend but they are most definitely not needed. My mission setup typhoon doesn't have rigs and it works great. If you want to use rigs though a shield tanked ship is a good choice, shield resist rigs are cheap (5mil approx) and free up some hardener slots for other modules.

You make more money in missions from the salvage and loot you sell. Even the lower frigate mission npcs can drop modules worth a couple of mil each. Plus all the shit loot refines very nicely into minerals to build your own ships or sell for the money. Now throw in spending your loyalty points and selling those items gets you money too. Don't just look at what your agent is going to give you, that is usually just a fraction of the rewards you gain

Money from missions comes from:

1. Agent reward
   
2. Rat bounty (if you are fighting pirate faction npcs and not faction npcs)
   
3. Tags from faction npcs since you get no bounty (some are worth quite a bit)
   
4. Salvage, even if you can't salvage find someone to team up with and let them get the salvage for a small fee of course.
   
5. Loot. Both good items to sell and refinables. Don't forget a lot of the loot you might save for use later when you need to refit.
   

Out of all of those I would say the actual agent reward of cash is the smallest percentage of what you will make from missions.

By the time you get to level 4s you should have made plenty of money to buy your level 4 ship. You will make more than enough if you do all the things I said.

Also many new players go in to the game for PvP but think they have to PvE until they can make the cash to PvP but that is not true in Eve. My suggestion is play to PvP from day 1 - plan on doing the Faction War missions instead of normal ones.

I half agree here. Though you can start pvping day one as a new player you really do need to spend some time learning the game and making a little cash (more learning the game over collecting some money). If you have some friends or get into a corp that helps and supports new players then go right ahead and jump into pvp day 1.

About the "new player experience thing", well if you start playing with the current one, or if you start playing in the new one in the coming expansion... I just want to make it clear to players on trial that their trial time will NOT be a good representation of what Eve really is.

Agreed. Eve changes as you play and learn it. And I don't mean in terms of patches and game changes. I mean more in terms of how you see the game as time goes on.

I do believe one of the problems with the game is that players cant have fun on the trial, and I do think the "new experience" their adding addresses the wrong problems as I've already discussed. But I didnt tell you this so you would not play. I'm telling this so that you are aware and so you hopefully stick with the game past that, so you can experience the real fun the game has to offer.

About Corps, if there are more "noob friendly" corps nowdays that as great. But when I first played - far before FW was added and all that - it was pretty bad because any Corps that were oriented towards PvP (the reason I was playing the game) required 8-12mil SP or more. I stayed in 0.0 my first couple months and had chats with everyone I ran to and everything, and none of them had any Corps I would have been allowed to join with my SP. I also remember one common rule was no trial players allowed in Corps. That said, I hope there is more noob friendly corps, especially w/ the expansion and re-release of boxes coming up.

There are more and more new player friendly corps out there all the time. Sure some corps have SP restrictions but thats their choice. Just like joining a guild in WoW, you won't be getting into a high end raiding guild at level 10. Hell most raiding guild won't even look at you unless you actually have some of gear out where ever they are raiding at that time. So really no different in Eve than WoW that way. Its a guild choice and not a game choice. As far as trial account go, well yeah no one takes in trials. Too easy to make spies with them and since most new players run away taking in trial account players is a waste of time. Unless of course the corp is one dedicated to taking in new people and helping them.

Corps will greatly enhance your game experience in Eve . Even if you are typically a solo player (I typically am too) find one anyway. You can make it clear you like to solo - but it is good to have people to talk to because just being in a corp with them allows them to help you even if your not playing with them at the time. They can give really good advice, they can help guide you with fittings, they may even do something like hook you up with some blueprints and teach you how to make some cash with them on a manufacture alt so you can  get established for making YOUR OWN money easier - I seen this happen a few times and it is great for new players who do not want to feel like they have to "rely on their corp mates for money".

Agreed. Even if you like to play solo it's best to find a corp friendly to that play type. They are out there.

Even if you are a new player who plans on checking out the Faction War - still find a corp. Just find a Faction War corp. For anyone who is interested in Eve's PvP, if you CANT find a corp for whatever reasons - just learn how to join the faction war and sign up as soon as possible, because you will quickly see what Eve is about. PvP players typically wont be entertained by missions for long - but once you get a taste of war and work with some war buddies the game will start to dramtically change.

100% agree here.

I just wanted to add some things here. I agreed with most. Im not sure if understood you completely on the money issue and that's why I added so much there.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Not so sure I would agree here. Saying that its a grind to just be able to do level 4s. Im sorry but 2 months time is not much considering the cash flow from 4s which IMO is too much money made too easily.  You wouldn't expect a 2 month old player to go out to 0.0 and rat hunt triple BS spawns and survive would you ? As far as rigs are concerned they are NOT needed. Sure they are nice to have if you have the money to spend but they are most definitely not needed. My mission setup typhoon doesn't have rigs and it works great. If you want to use rigs though a shield tanked ship is a good choice, shield resist rigs are cheap (5mil approx) and free up some hardener slots for other modules.

You make more money in missions from the salvage and loot you sell. Even the lower frigate mission npcs can drop modules worth a couple of mil each. Plus all the shit loot refines very nicely into minerals to build your own ships or sell for the money. Now throw in spending your loyalty points and selling those items gets you money too. Don't just look at what your agent is going to give you, that is usually just a fraction of the rewards you gain

Money from missions comes from:

1. Agent reward
   
2. Rat bounty (if you are fighting pirate faction npcs and not faction npcs)
   
3. Tags from faction npcs since you get no bounty (some are worth quite a bit)
   
4. Salvage, even if you can't salvage find someone to team up with and let them get the salvage for a small fee of course.
   
5. Loot. Both good items to sell and refinables. Don't forget a lot of the loot you might save for use later when you need to refit.
   

Out of all of those I would say the actual agent reward of cash is the smallest percentage of what you will make from missions.

By the time you get to level 4s you should have made plenty of money to buy your level 4 ship. You will make more than enough if you do all the things I said.

 

I just wanted to add some things here. I agreed with most. Im not sure if understood you completely on the money issue and that's why I added so much there.

 

Well, the thing is, if your a PvE mission runner, the main "goal" is to be able to do your level 4's solo. It's pretty much the benchmark every PvE player is going after until they consider themselves sufficient for missioning. For example, a RL friend of mine just decided that in his Domi he is sufficient enough that he could do any level 4's. So for the last couple weeks hes only now starting to put his SP into PvP-centric skills. He just trained up interceptors and I believe hes working on his T2 hybrids. So thats the goal people are going to go after - people want to get to the level 4's asap.

That said, on the subject of 0.0 ratting, I actually find that quite a bit easier then missioning - at least for killing the NPC's. The main issue with 0.0 ratting is that you likely need a corp out there, because if your flying a Domi out to 0.0 chances are you arent going to make it far solo.

As for rigs, thats likely dependant on your race and how you initially spent your SP. The Typhoon you mentioned will need quite a bit more SP to be sufficient then a Domi or Raven, which will mean more time until you could do them. Also, most sources will recommend starting Caldari or Gallente for missioning.

If you are piloting a Domi or a Raven, you WILL need rigs to be able to do it efficiently - especially when you are first learning how to do the lvl 4's and which ones to take/which to skip. Let me open EFT to give some examples...

Lets take the Domi first. On a character who is newly piloting a BS to get in to level 4's, they will only be working with named gear. Even if you use all cap recharger 2's in your mids, you will not be able to run 2 reppers for long at all - which is neccessary for level 4's to be able to tank. WIthout rigs, you can only run those 2 reppers for 2mins 43 seconds. That wont be enough to survive the beginning of a battle - especially when your DPS is only in the 200's without t2 drones. With double hardeners and both reppers running, this will only grant defense in the 400's in EFT.  It can run a single repper permenantly, but this brings the defense to barely over 200. This simply will not cut it in level 4's.

Now lets put rigs on - 3 CCC and you are cap stable with both reppers running. Peremenant defense in the 400s actually is sufficient for some level 4's, but still not all. 2 CCC and 1 Aux nano pump, and you pull up to 550-600 defense and can run that for 13 minutes - this will actually be able to handle most level 4's. Without these rigs you will have no chance.

My first character was Gallente so I know this to be true. By the time I was able to do level 4's, I actually could not afford a domi and rigs. I wasnt even close to being able to afford it until I was able to do some of the higher quality level 4's. So a friend lent me the money to buy the ship and rigs. I made back the money in level 4's to pay him back pretty fast - lvl 4s are a HUGE increase in cash compared to 3's, salvage and all, seriously.

So I paid him back, but soon after I dont remember what happened but I ended up losing the ship. I purchased it again from the insurance, but couldnt afford all the rigs. I was only able to afford 1 CCC but I gave it a try anyway, and it was a very hard time. I ended up borrowing money to get the rigs again. You have to be very careful not to lose the ship with rigs unless you have the money to replace them. After this point I remember spending an entire day farming which was going to make some decent cash for me, and then at the end of the day, ended up losing the ship. Those 3 rigs cost approx 50mil, and this basically wiped out all the money I made during the day. It is very discouraging when you work hard all day and then end up where you started.

Now factor in a new player, who dont know how the missions really work, and dont know which to avoid, your going to be losing some ships. It's not an easy transition to start those 4's.

Now lets look at the Raven - I actually have a new alt that is a lil over 3mil SP so this one will be easy. If you stack up on Capacitor Flux Coil II's and pop on cap rechargers... to be able to fit a shield booster and 2 hardeners, without rigs your cap will only last a minute and a half. With named cruise launchers you will be doing about 250ish DPS. This simply will not cut it, again.

But what happens when you toss 3 CCC's on there? Bam, cap stable, and your in a ship that can do level 4's. So for the Raven too, without a very skilled character, the rigs are competley neccessary.

With all that said, the last lvl 3 I did with salvage and all only gave around 5mil after selling salv etc. This means to afford that raven which is bout 85mill right now, plus 3 CCC's which are 16mil each right now, you are looking at 133mil. This is not including insurance which is approx 35-40m. Just for arguments sake to be lenient, lets say 160mil, thats 32 missions until you can even afford your level 4 ship.

To me, that is quite a grind.

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Well, the thing is, if your a PvE mission runner, the main "goal" is to be able to do your level 4's solo. It's pretty much the benchmark every PvE player is going after until they consider themselves sufficient for missioning. For example, a RL friend of mine just decided that in his Domi he is sufficient enough that he could do any level 4's. So for the last couple weeks hes only now starting to put his SP into PvP-centric skills. He just trained up interceptors and I believe hes working on his T2 hybrids. So thats the goal people are going to go after - people want to get to the level 4's asap.

Yeah and like I said just because you want to do level 4s asap that doesn't mean you should be able to. Either get some friends at lower levels or step back down to level 3s. The point is people want to be at the so called end game immediately when it doesn't work that way.

That said, on the subject of 0.0 ratting, I actually find that quite a bit easier then missioning - at least for killing the NPC's. The main issue with 0.0 ratting is that you likely need a corp out there, because if your flying a Domi out to 0.0 chances are you arent going to make it far solo.

Easier or not you still wont have the tank and dps needed to take down triple bs spawns.

As for rigs, thats likely dependant on your race and how you initially spent your SP. The Typhoon you mentioned will need quite a bit more SP to be sufficient then a Domi or Raven, which will mean more time until you could do them. Also, most sources will recommend starting Caldari or Gallente for missioning.

Ok since the Raven and Domi take less skills then it should be easier to do level 4s in without rigs than a Typhoon. Eveyone goes for a Caldari character for missions because they are the easiest to skill for and missles will always hit and and have huge range.

If you are piloting a Domi or a Raven, you WILL need rigs to be able to do it efficiently - especially when you are first learning how to do the lvl 4's and which ones to take/which to skip. Let me open EFT to give some examples...

How did people do level 4s in these ships before rigs ? Rigs are great to have but they are not needed and they are a luxery if you can afford to lose them.

Lets take the Domi first. On a character who is newly piloting a BS to get in to level 4's, they will only be working with named gear. Even if you use all cap recharger 2's in your mids, you will not be able to run 2 reppers for long at all - which is neccessary for level 4's to be able to tank. WIthout rigs, you can only run those 2 reppers for 2mins 43 seconds. That wont be enough to survive the beginning of a battle - especially when your DPS is only in the 200's without t2 drones. With double hardeners and both reppers running, this will only grant defense in the 400's in EFT.  It can run a single repper permenantly, but this brings the defense to barely over 200. This simply will not cut it in level 4's.

Fit a large nos or 2 and then the cap recharge isn't a problem (tip: NPCs have unlimited cap to nos from them) With 2 cap rechargers and 2 large nos I can run 1 large and 1 med rep, i just pulse themdium as needed. Basically though you are trying to bite off more than you can chew so get some friends or step back down to level 3s.

Now lets put rigs on - 3 CCC and you are cap stable with both reppers running. Peremenant defense in the 400s actually is sufficient for some level 4's, but still not all. 2 CCC and 1 Aux nano pump, and you pull up to 550-600 defense and can run that for 13 minutes - this will actually be able to handle most level 4's. Without these rigs you will have no chance.

Oh you wanna put CCC rigs in. Yeah news flash they are pricey as hell. And you complain if you lose them ? Maybe use some cheaper rigs and take care of your cap issues with the slots those rigs fill.

My first character was Gallente so I know this to be true. By the time I was able to do level 4's, I actually could not afford a domi and rigs. I wasnt even close to being able to afford it until I was able to do some of the higher quality level 4's. So a friend lent me the money to buy the ship and rigs. I made back the money in level 4's to pay him back pretty fast - lvl 4s are a HUGE increase in cash compared to 3's, salvage and all, seriously.

Yeah I know the cash difference. But level 4s are meant to be higher end for larger solo ships or groups. Level 4s are actually way too much money and the agents should be moved to low sec space.

So I paid him back, but soon after I dont remember what happened but I ended up losing the ship. I purchased it again from the insurance, but couldnt afford all the rigs. I was only able to afford 1 CCC but I gave it a try anyway, and it was a very hard time. I ended up borrowing money to get the rigs again. You have to be very careful not to lose the ship with rigs unless you have the money to replace them. After this point I remember spending an entire day farming which was going to make some decent cash for me, and then at the end of the day, ended up losing the ship. Those 3 rigs cost approx 50mil, and this basically wiped out all the money I made during the day. It is very discouraging when you work hard all day and then end up where you started.

Umm yeah I believe this is something I said would happen in my previous posts. You are doing something wrong, not the game.

Now factor in a new player, who dont know how the missions really work, and dont know which to avoid, your going to be losing some ships. It's not an easy transition to start those 4's.

No but once you get to level 4s chances are a new player will know about mission guides that break them all down and tell you how to fit and what to shoot first. Not too hard really.

Now lets look at the Raven - I actually have a new alt that is a lil over 3mil SP so this one will be easy. If you stack up on Capacitor Flux Coil II's and pop on cap rechargers... to be able to fit a shield booster and 2 hardeners, without rigs your cap will only last a minute and a half. With named cruise launchers you will be doing about 250ish DPS. This simply will not cut it, again.

3 mil sps to fly a battleship. Theres your problem right there. You are just not ready to fly that ship and you wanna throw  in CCC rigs.

But what happens when you toss 3 CCC's on there? Bam, cap stable, and your in a ship that can do level 4's. So for the Raven too, without a very skilled character, the rigs are competley neccessary.

Ok so with 3 mil sps and 3 CCCs tihs makes you able to do level 4s. Ok seriously stop crying.

With all that said, the last lvl 3 I did with salvage and all only gave around 5mil after selling salv etc. This means to afford that raven which is bout 85mill right now, plus 3 CCC's which are 16mil each right now, you are looking at 133mil. This is not including insurance which is approx 35-40m. Just for arguments sake to be lenient, lets say 160mil, thats 32 missions until you can even afford your level 4 ship.

To me, that is quite a grind.

Did you forget about all the other ways to make money off missions ? I listed 5 but you only picked 1. Did you get any good loot drops ? You will even get good loot off frigates. Did you refine the shit loot and sell the minerals ?

At this point all I get from you is that you want to walk into level 4s damn near immediately and clear them out. Sorry man but it really is only a matter of time before level 4 agents get moved into low sec (just my opinion here based one what I have seen CCP do over the last 6 years.

What you are asking for is the game to just be made stupid easy for new people to come in and have everything. Not gonna happen in Eve. Think yourslef lucky that you can actually do a level 4 mission in a battleship with only 3 mil sps and in safe and secure space. You take the risk by spending 50 mil on rigs or you don't, it's your choice. Either pay the money and keep your ship alive or lose it and be out that money, risk vs reward.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by SpyridonZ

Yeah and like I said just because you want to do level 4s asap that doesn't mean you should be able to. Either get some friends at lower levels or step back down to level 3s. The point is people want to be at the so called end game immediately when it doesn't work that way.

Most people dont do missions for the sake of doing them, or to experience "end-game". Most people do them just so they have an established money making character. That's why probably half the people on the game have a missioning alt. CCP has made it clear multiple times that they have no plans of making it HARDER to get ISK, but easier.

Easier or not you still wont have the tank and dps needed to take down triple bs spawns.

Triple BS spawns arent really too hard, especially compared to missions. You can align and warp away if your in trouble and take them out 1 at a time if you have to. You get pounded much harder in missions and have to worry about ewar.

Ok since the Raven and Domi take less skills then it should be easier to do level 4s in without rigs than a Typhoon. Eveyone goes for a Caldari character for missions because they are the easiest to skill for and missles will always hit and and have huge range.

Not true. Even with all lvl 5 skills your going to have cap issues in a Raven w/o rigs.

How did people do level 4s in these ships before rigs ? Rigs are great to have but they are not needed and they are a luxery if you can afford to lose them.

Level 4 missions arent meant to be as hard as they were then. Thats why they added lvl 5's.

Fit a large nos or 2 and then the cap recharge isn't a problem (tip: NPCs have unlimited cap to nos from them) With 2 cap rechargers and 2 large nos I can run 1 large and 1 med rep, i just pulse themdium as needed. Basically though you are trying to bite off more than you can chew so get some friends or step back down to level 3s.

It's not biting off more then you can chew if you can do them with rigs. I was just stating that rigs are neccessary to do it effectively. 2 Heavy Nos only brings it up to 5.5 minutes of cap, and for the Domi the Aux Nano Pump is important for the defense it adds.

Oh you wanna put CCC rigs in. Yeah news flash they are pricey as hell. And you complain if you lose them ? Maybe use some cheaper rigs and take care of your cap issues with the slots those rigs fill.

I'm not speaking in current terms- I have 3 characters that can do lvl 4's and money isnt a problem.  I'm speaking in the view of a new player. Using cheaper rigs does not help new players at all when every fitting they look up has Aux Nano Pumps and CCC's.

Yeah I know the cash difference. But level 4s are meant to be higher end for larger solo ships or groups. Level 4s are actually way too much money and the agents should be moved to low sec space.

There are already agents in low sec and high sec for most factions.

Actually, what you think they should do is the OPPOSITE of how CCP feels. They stated that they are NOT going to reduce the amount of money that can be made from lvl 4's. They are balancing high-low sec by INCREASING the profit you can get in low sec. Thats why once the patch drops, you will be seeing BS spawns in low-sec as well.

Umm yeah I believe this is something I said would happen in my previous posts. You are doing something wrong, not the game.

Eve is a Sandbox game. There is no "Right or wrong" way to play.

When did this become a discussion about right or wrong, anyway? What I said was it is not possible to be effective in a Raven or Domi in level 4's without the rigs at low SP, and I gave the numbers to back up the claim. It IS possible to do them with the rigs giving you the numbers I gave.

If you really want to prove me wrong, why dont you bust out EFT and see for yourself if you can find a setup that can match the numbers I gave with the limit of skills I have been discussing?

No but once you get to level 4s chances are a new player will know about mission guides that break them all down and tell you how to fit and what to shoot first. Not too hard really.

The guides are often wrong or outdated. Especially when it comes to which enemies will trigger a spawn - which is the big issue that gets new players killed - either too much DPS from the additional spawn, or an unexpected scram.

3 mil sps to fly a battleship. Theres your problem right there. You are just not ready to fly that ship and you wanna throw  in CCC rigs.

3mil SP is the breakpoint for Domi and Raven pilots - WITH rigs. If you do a search, you will see loads of players giving the same advice.

Ok so with 3 mil sps and 3 CCCs tihs makes you able to do level 4s. Ok seriously stop crying.

I was never crying. I simply stated that the rigs were neccessary, and the reason I stated that was because you asked me what the money issue was for new players.

Did you forget about all the other ways to make money off missions ? I listed 5 but you only picked 1. Did you get any good loot drops ? You will even get good loot off frigates. Did you refine the shit loot and sell the minerals ?

The 5 mill figure I gave was including everything except for LP rewards - the mission reward and bountys gave approx 1mill. The other 4 mill was from selling/salvage/etc.

 

At this point all I get from you is that you want to walk into level 4s damn near immediately and clear them out. Sorry man but it really is only a matter of time before level 4 agents get moved into low sec (just my opinion here based one what I have seen CCP do over the last 6 years.

What you are asking for is the game to just be made stupid easy for new people to come in and have everything. Not gonna happen in Eve. Think yourslef lucky that you can actually do a level 4 mission in a battleship with only 3 mil sps and in safe and secure space. You take the risk by spending 50 mil on rigs or you don't, it's your choice. Either pay the money and keep your ship alive or lose it and be out that money, risk vs reward.

 

Dude, to get 3mill SP takes a couple months anyway. That's not immediately.

It's not even all my words either - the advice that Caldari or Gallente players are set for lvl 4's at 3mill SP are all over the official Eve forums, and the noob guides.

The agents wont be moved to low-sec either. They are increasing low sec rewards, not reducing the rewards from anywhere.

The only changes they stated that may happen to lvl 4 missions is they may add the improved AI to them at sometime, in which case they will be increasing rewards due to the difficulty.

I havent asked for the game to be made easier either. I simply brought up money issues for new players. I dont know why you go from us having a somewhat-friendly discussion, to this post where you are being condenscending and attempting to talk down to me and putting words in my mouth. I never once said that I want the missions to be made easier. Did you forget that you asked me what money issues new players have? I simply explained why it is not an easy time, and that it is a grind to be able to afford an adequate ship for level 4's if you are limited on skills.

Originally posted by TheGrue

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

Nuff said.

You may now begin with the "omfg troll!!!eleventyones" 

I too agree with Zeropunctuations review of EvE it is a very accurate review of the SINGLE PLAYER side of EvE. Now what i would like him to do is review the Corp side of EvE you know the bit in EvE where you work with others.

Of course its well known that he Detests MMORPG games of any type so that probably tends to colour his reviews a little.