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2/26/09 2:20:36 AM#21
Even though you prefer Lord of the Rings: Online, JackDog, I would assume you were aware that there are others on the market. Also please note that I could care less about looks for your Character. Especially in Lord of the Rings: Online where the character models and their animation looks extremely awkward and sometimes downright scary (remember the twisted spine elves?) What I care about is how the Character plays. If you are into looks I think it was a good enough move to simply copy EQ2's method of having a set of clothing you wore visually and another you wore for stats. That way they could also get away with a very limited selection of graphics so good choice. In Lord of the Rings: Online your Traits offer minimal changes and your abilities will always be the same as the next player with the same Class at the same Level. You don't excel at specific areas, sacrificing others, you tweak certain narrow areas to a minuscule degree. Take City of Heroes for instance. You have a Primary Power Set, a Secondary Power Set and from level 6 (of 50 levels, so it's VERY early) you can choose Auxillary Power Sets. There are five Archetypes that each must choose a Primary and a Secondary Power Set (from a list of variable length, none have less than 8 different sets in each of their Selections). This causes HUGE differences already at Level 1. Every even level you get one more Power to choose from either your Secondary or Primary Power Sets (or from Level 6, Auxillary Power Sets). Every odd Level you get to Slot your Powers (two Slots every odd Level), which opens up options in the Relevant Power. Each Power can take a maximum of 6 Slots and in these Slots you can insert Enhancements. Every Power will take various Enhancements that can range from Increased Accuracy, Better Recharge Time, Longer Range, Higher Damage, Better Damage Resistance, Better ToHit Buffs (or Debuffs), Better Heal, and so on. If you later on decide you want to have different Enhancements, you just put in new ones. You can also find Recipees and craft your own that will give you cross bonuses and set bonuses (one Enhancement that has both Accurary and Damage for instance and when Slotted along with similar Enhancements, they will all Recharge Faster or something). From Level 4 there are about 20.480 different combinations of viable, different Character Builds, more than 4.000 for each Archetype. Character Customization. Player choices that impact performance and playstyle. That matters. Seems like you're the upset fanboi, JackDog. |
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2/26/09 3:13:46 AM#22
Originally posted by nitefly
Actually this does not hold water anymore, as traits do these days have pretty significant effect how character plays. And in addition to traiting you have still the old way of making characters different, by choosing the equipment you use. And of course traits have changed skills from the start, so even if the name is the same, the end effect for 2 different characters using the same skill can vary. As it is LotRO actually offers these days pretty good mix of player skill tempered with class abilities - there are no killer builds as the thing which seems mostly matter is how you play in your preferred style. Is LotRO a perfect game then - No, it's just at the moment the most polished and best executed DIKU out there. Of course Turbine had it easy lorewise, as there is a huge background to draw upon but also boundaries that give limits to the world. And as someone with bacground in arts, those limits are actually needed in any project that needs to stay a coherent whole, you can't add things just because. Character Customization. Player choices that impact performance and playstyle. That matters. Seems like you're the upset fanboi of another game, Nitefly. Playing: Vanguard |
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2/26/09 3:27:23 AM#23
Originally posted by nitefly
I just can't agree with Nitefly about this.
As a first point, looks are important to the point where people's characters should look different. With appearance slots it helps. It matters perhaps not to you, but it matters to a lot of people. How many times have you come across complaints in forums like these from players that everyone looks the same? I only have low level toons right now, and they all look very different from each other and look different from other peoples' characters because I've made good use of the appearance slot.
As a second point, the traits make a huuuuuge difference, even at low level. Sure, I don't have much choice yet since I'm still working on getting traits, but I have already changed my traits based on whether I want to solo or fellow. I've chosen slow character progression for being thorough and I'm getting my traits leveled up. My character already has much better stats than many of the characters the same level I've fellowed up with and who have raced through the low level areas. Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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Originally posted by nitefly so you are saying that traits do not matter And would not call changing my max power 20 or 30% minuscule, or increasing my armor 10% minuscule, or increasing my damage by double digits miuscule. Sorry to derail your derail but you just are dead wrong here. I miss DAoC
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2/26/09 5:28:04 AM#25
that $200 was easily the best i ever spent.
bored of all the current P2P MMO's? load up LOTRO for a week or 2. I ususally end up finding something new to play after 2-4 weeks and LOTRO is perfect to fill that gap MMO wish list: -Changeable worlds |
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2/26/09 5:51:01 AM#26
I agree that Traits make a difference, more so at higher levels but a small difference at lower levels. It becomes really important in the 40's. Yes it makes a difference at lower levels but nothing like the difference it makes at higher levels. And I was asked a number of times by people what traits I had before they invited me into groups. The grind that is required in the game for traits does put me off but it's a great game overall. I will miss it but not enough to go back to it. If there are people who haven't tried it they really should give it a go, it's not a bad game at all.
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2/26/09 6:19:36 AM#27
Traits can (in my view) only be seen as a drastic influence on Character Performance if you have only played Lord of the Rings: Online, World of Warcraft or Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Take two Minstrels level 60. Look at their Skills. How many Skills are not the same? There might be something pointless like 10% this or 20% that (I don't dispute there are some very minor elements in the game) but at the end of the day, those two Minstrels can do the same things bar one or two additional powers. That's the degree of customization that is available gameplay wise. I noticed that everybody who defended Lord of the Rings: Online eloquently chose to ignore the example I gave of what Character Customization is in for instance City of Heroes, so I would expect this next paragraph would be filtered out by your rose-tinted pro-LotR:O glasses but I'll type it out anyway: Take another Turbine game: Dungeons & Dragons: Online. Roll a Level 1 Wizard. Now level him to 12. During those 11 Level-ups you could have multi-classed that Character to such a degree so that he could have become an Arcane-savvy (allow use of certain magical items) Fighter specializing in the use of the Long Bow, or a mighty Undead Turning Cleric, equally skilled in both Arcane and Divine Magic, or a stealthy Rogue type Character that uses just enough Magic to give him the Perception he needs in certain hairy situations (Detect Undead, Knock, Web for getting away, etc.) Take Feats into the equation and you have so many combinations that calculating it would become ridiculous. How many Lord of the Rings: Online players can post a screenshot of their Character Selection where they have, say, 3 Minstrels? I would bet only one (and two would be very low level) because there is no point, the similarities would far outweigh any disparities or specializations. At least in World of Warcraft you have some General Paths (not an example of what I want but at least they try) with Shadow Priests vs. Holy Priests being the most apparent example. In that case the Character will also look different and have several Powers available that the other build won't have. Cosmetic changes to the Character via the wardrobe system is all very good, but again, having played for instance City of Heroes and EverQuest2 it seems either like very little or just a copy. In Dungeons & Dragons: Online they did something brilliant: Same armour (stats-wise) with several different looks. I loved that. |
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2/26/09 9:09:45 AM#28
Originally posted by Guillermo197
Well, first off, you don't need radiance gear unless you are doing the watcher. Really. I have all my Radiance pieces and was comparing them to my other gear and quite frankly there is not really a huge difference between items, and in some cases I prefer using non-radiance shoulders over my radiance shoulders. It's beyond hysterical when I see someone shout "6/6 (6 out of the 6 radiance pieces for those who don't know) hunter looking for grand stair loot runs..." Welll that's great. But you don't need radiance in any runs except for the watcher. Granted, they need to do something about crafting so that aproximately equal gear can be made for those who are not interested in running for gear. But in the end, many of those gear run items (that are not radiance) can be purchased on the AH for very cheap prices. So yes, crafting does seem borked but in no way do people need to raid for gear if they don't want. |
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2/26/09 12:00:19 PM#29
Originally posted by nitefly No-one here is saying that LoTRO offers character cusomization on par with CoH. Very few MMOs do. DDO, EQOA, FFXI and a few others I can think of off the top of my head are also standouts. And obviously no level based game is going to approach a point based game (EVE, UO, AC) or a game wher you are forced to head out with limited power loadouts (for example GW). If by "Lotro offers minscule" character customization that it isn't as flexible as CoH, then sure I'd have to agree. However, that not really how the above statement comes off. At the very least, it makes it seem as if LoTRO offers below average character customization for a level based MMO. That simply isn't true. If you really understand the trait system, you can see very clearly that LoTRO is on par with WoW, WAR, EQ II, AO, EQ, (yes I've played all of those) and the majority of other level based MMOs. It isn't exceptional, but it's not nearly as limited as you seem to think. Statements like the above reek of ingorance. For example, a fully offensively specced Minstral is a completely sucktastic healer compared to one that is specced out for healing. You are looking at at least a 40% difference in base healing output, as well as a potentially completely different set of legendary abilities (yes, just like WoW you gain or lose abilities depending on what traits you slot, and what race you pick). No, it isn't CoH or DAoC. But LoTRO does offer a decent level of character customization at higher levels. It's at least on par with WoW, EQ, WAR, ect.. And as for no-one having multiples of the same class on the same server, why would you want to do that? A full respec at a Bard is less than a gold. The only thing you can't change at will is your race. Some of the racial abilities are substantial (feign death, stealth, lay on hands, party wide hope bonus, ect.). However most of the customization is with class traits. It's a hell of a lot easier to visit a Bard than raise a new alt to 60 if you want to change up your playstyle. And really, how many of the same class do you generally have on the same server in an MMO anyway? I can't think of a single game where I have currently two of the exact same class on one server. I sure as hell don't run two druids in WoW, three shadowknights in EQ II, or four fire/ fire tankers in CoH. About the only time I've ever done that was the early days of DAoC before they added talent respecs. If you wanted to see how a void eldy played differently from a mana eldy, you had to play two up. It was honestly a pain in the butt, and it didn't take Mythic long to cave and add respecs. I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us. |
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2/26/09 12:45:21 PM#30
You will never beat Watcher with iout tje radiance gear, the ammount of dread it produces about +50 I think so that is a lot of your HP almost 1/2 to 3/4 of your hp down by dread. Quick test of this is to go into the chamber in the Water Works near the salamanders and see the dread. |
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2/26/09 12:46:28 PM#31
Originally posted by Jackdog so you are saying that traits do not matter And would not call changing my max power 20 or 30% minuscule, or increasing my armor 10% minuscule, or increasing my damage by double digits miuscule. Sorry to derail your derail but you just are dead wrong here. Jack you are correct lol
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2/26/09 3:31:17 PM#32
On a more thorough review I think you are right about that, the character customization is comparable to World of Warcraft, EverQuest, or Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Not exactly the same, but the level of impact is very similar. There are obvious routes laid out by the developers and within the confines of the original class, the player then chooses between those previously implied routes. It is possible to make mix-matches but they are more a sort of self-imposed increased difficulty, the community will quickly gravitate towards the developer determined setups. Good thing about such a setup: It's easy to understand and the only demand on the part of the player is to know the various web sites where the best builds are posted. Then learn what each button does. But the result is that it just artificially doubles/triples the amount of Classes (if viewed as positively as possible). In most modern MMOs the world has become so rigid and static that the Character is the only element you can really experiment with and take an active interest in. If that element is also diminished to such a hefty degree it takes away the splendour of the RPG part of MMORPGs. I'm aware it is a trend largely promoted by the success of World of Warcraft but I really don't think all developers have to emulate the market leader in this aspect. Extremely personal closing thought: Especially one based on such a great story with such magnificient Character portrayals. EDIT: On the other hand, in games like World of Warcraft or EverQuest2 you can change your Class from one role to another using the Character Customization, so you end up with multiple Classes that can fill the various MMO roles of Tank, Healer, DPS, and Control. The obvious example from World of Warcraft is that people will look for a Healer (Druid, Priest, Paladin, or Shaman) or a Tank (Warrior, Death Knight, Paladin, or Druid). Same with EverQuest2. I'm aware you can do the odd ball party in Lord of the Rings: Online (as in any MMO) but the roles feels tighter and more set from the get go. At least to me. |
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2/26/09 7:47:08 PM#33
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Online MMO's are nothing like games like Baldur's gate or any of the offline RPG game experiences where you had to use your head to figure out alot of the story line. I remember it taking hours to try and figure out a storyline puzzle per say. LOTRO is a beautiful game graphically. The game mechanics are very slow. Combat feels slow-mo. I remember reading Tolkeins books that my uncle had on a bookstand when i was like 10 years old. So the story has been around for ages. My sub is active but i seem to go one month here then a new game next month. Heck i even tried EVE Online and well how exciting is flying around looking at asteroids lol.. LOTRO seems to have a more mature community then most games but from a gamer perspective its still a go kill 20 bears and come back and get another quest for 30 bears game. LOTRO hand feeds you just like every other MMO. I miss the exploration experience we used to get in older MMO's. I used to search for hours just to find an NPC in DAOC when it was first released. Many times there location had no direction at all other then they were in a certain zone lol.. I remember exploring and being instead dead because i didn't know what mob was there until it was to late. Games today have nothing like that not even LOTRO. |
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2/27/09 3:15:45 AM#34
If you think that is all that EvE is about, then you've really missed about 99% of EvE.
I found myself having to use my head more in BG and BG2 for sure, but it wasn't that hard to solve the puzzles in their games. I think that the poster who made the comparison between LotRO and BG was trying to say that the experience in LotRO was one of the most immersive, on the order of the older cRPGs. I kinda agree with him though the world is architectured in a somewhat organised and contrived way. Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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2/28/09 1:44:02 AM#35
As a first point, looks are important to the point where people's characters should look different. With appearance slots it helps. It matters perhaps not to you, but it matters to a lot of people. How many times have you come across complaints in forums like these from players that everyone looks the same? I only have low level toons right now, and they all look very different from each other and look different from other peoples' characters because I've made good use of the appearance slot.
Looks most certainly matter, I've had several people telling me my monk-like appearance gives a certain calming prescene in the heat of battle. As you might be able to guess, I play a minstrel, and wearing the ballader's robe (dyed to a more subdued rust-color to avoid the horrible screeching green that was the color originally) combined with my shiny bald head, it all adds to that serene monk-like prescene. Likewise you might get inspired by seeing the dps's and tankers wearing cool battle armour in the front line, and so yes, looks (and colors, I would argue) do matter :) |
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Are you sure you have even played the game? I can make a dramatic difference in my characters attributes simply by visiting a bard a bard. With my minstrel I can change his focus from solo oriented "smite cleric" to group oriented wimpy healer using either trait changes or gear changes or a combination of the two.
