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Originally posted by zantax
While I will agree on most of your points, none of them are particulary game making or unique to EVE.  I am currently playing EVE, and being someone who is very cautious when it comes to RISK vs Reward I don't PvP unless I am drawn into it with my corp.  I don't sit in low sec space just waiting to gank someon.  Instead I do my thing, support the economy and grow stronger so that I can someday go to Low Sec and help out.  Now honestly I have tried this game 3 times before this run, and played it for about 2-3 months each time.  I am pushing my 3rd month on this round and although the game is still a bit interesting, I can feel the boredom starting to take over.  The monotony of doing Level 3 missions, the monotony of scanning out people or belts or plexs, Lets not talk about the mining or production of things.  The skill system although unique in the way you can train skills is by far not ground breaking and definatly not the best I have saw.  Instead I find it one of the biggest annoyances of the game.
Now please remember that again i don't "Hate" Eve it has its place among the MMO crowd.  It has done well it is I just think that in the long run this game is not for me.
A game that is for me, well in that case there is only one that I truely enjoyed playing, and that kept me interested for a VERY long time 4 years I think.  Asheron's Call, yes a game that is 10+ years old.  Its graphics are one of the only things that are lacking in my opinion, that and Botting.  AC's Skill and attribute system were by far the best of any game out there even by todays standard.  Just the right amount of skills and the ability to raise them with experiance you make off of kills or by repeatedly useing those skills.  Quests that were unique, long and complex if you don't believe me look up the Lady Aerifall quest, or the Olthoi Queen quest.  A PvP system that was second to none, if you went RED and lived that life you were respected.  Corpse Looting was allowed but you didn't drop all of your stuff instead you dropped a set number of items that was decided by the computer, and those were supposed to be random.  A guild system that actually promoted someone to build a good guild.  Also MONTHLY updates and only 2 paid updates in 10 years, and finally a world full of Lore that is unique not just goblins, dwarfs, elves and humans.  Truely original game, and one that I am thinking I may go back to even though the graphics are not the best anymore, but it beats all the SHIAT that has being released in the last 5 years hands down.

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I think the reason you end up moving on is a pretty simple one. You haven't gotten into the territorial warfare aspects of the game. I think this happens to a lot of people. unless they feel grabbed by a social network to then hold some 0.0 or at least fight for some, there is nothing but grind.

The bulk of the lore in the game is player made, the trials over the loss of a station,. The battle that gained one. The politics of negotiating blue and then keeping it. These stories are the ones that give the game longevity.

@ the comment about the real-time skill training screwing over the newer player:

I would agree 100% if....  There was no cap on said skills.  I, II, III, IV, V.  Done.  No mas.  A veteran Eve player can only get Frigate to Level V, he cannot get that skill any higher once V is reached.  A new player comes into the game and can have that exact same skill to V within their first few weeks thus being on par, in that paticular skill, with ANY "veteran" of the game.

Compare that to any of the games that use experience based systems.  Forgive me but I'll use everyones favorite comparrison:  World of Warcraft.  Find me one person who can defeat/out dps/out tank/out heal someone that has been playing WoW for a few years geared out in full Tier 80billion (or wtfever they are up to now) gear vs someone who has only been playing for two weeks.  Can't.  Won't.  Impossible - well - unless they've got some uber hardcore guild behind them that focuses soley on leveling/gearing that player to the teeth...

The leveling system in Eve being unfairly balanced towards older players is a myth, a heavily toted myth by those that like to argue against Eve.  That's fine.  This post will do nothing to dispel that myth, but meh...  Gotta say it....

gl hf

o7

I like Eve alot, but I have friends who don't care for it, none that really 'hate' it and the reason for them is pretty simple.  They feel a disconnect between their character and the world.  Basically you're a still picture and a spaceship.  This turns some people off. 

In Eve you get immersed in combat, corporations, the market all sorts of things, but in many ways your character, the thing that links you to the world is what you feel the least immersion towards.  Not sure if that makes sense the way I wrote it, but some people need to love their character.  I think the ambulation project and how they move forward from that point will go a long ways in solving this issue and will bring alot of players into the fold.  Alot of it will be fluff at first, but Eve is at a point where it can add that sort of thing, especially if it helps to invest people in the world.

There's no game that touches Eve in my opinion.  No dev team has the long term vision of CCP.  That being said, there is room for improvement and frankly everyone looks for something different in a game so some people just flat out won't like it.   

I think it's freaking hilarious that, when talking about a game with one of the harshest PvP systems out, the players can't stand anyone being harsh about the game. You have to issue carebear criticism or the little horde of Eve players will descend upon you and your comments.

Originally posted by Z3R01

Seriously, look at all the gameplay options this game gives you.

The freedom to do what you want.

Risk v reward for everything you do.

Amazing economy, a fully shaped gaming universe totally ran by the players.

The customization options within the game are mind boggling.

The graphics are second to none, they even kick the shit out of sci-fi space games that aren't even out yet!!!

When Corps (guilds) get thier ass kicked in this game, it isn't news on a game forum, the god damn BBC writes an article about it!!!!

The Devs give us constant updates and tweaks. 5+ years of game play and the game is as supported as any mmo that released this year.

 

Seriously while certain people may not like the sci-fi setting or the type of combat or risk the game holds it should still be respected for what it gives the players that actually play the game.

people that down right hate the game and say its the worst thing they ever played are insane.

Being a good or bad game is subjective, but to hate a game? I don't understand it.

A big thing people do not like is the effort vs. reward.  Think of effort as time, and reward as well, whatever your goal is.  To be successful in EVE it takes a significant time sink, morso than many popular games.  People like instant and fast.

WizardBlack:  "I think it's freaking hilarious that, when talking about a game with one of the harshest PvP systems out, the players can't stand anyone being harsh about the game. You have to issue carebear criticism or the little horde of Eve players will descend upon you and your comments."

Go away troll.  Nobody is doing that here.

I think the general consensus of this board is, and have been for a while, that EVE is probably the LEAST hated game of them all.

Sure there are many who do not like it but most respect it for what it is.

And CCP may be asshats at times but they are at least sticking to their guns so to speak.

The community on the other hand, well it is a whole different story wich I will not touch here.

This is a weird thread to post in the EVE forums I think.

slask, the reason you keep getting edited is because you admit that you're trolling. thats a red flag to a moderator.

i love eve, its really not for everyone and i can respect that. people who critisise the community i think are insane, i love eves community, its the most helpful and mature ive ever seen. anyone coming to the london meet up on saturday?

Originally posted by nurgles

 

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Originally posted by zantax
While I will agree on most of your points, none of them are particulary game making or unique to EVE.  I am currently playing EVE, and being someone who is very cautious when it comes to RISK vs Reward I don't PvP unless I am drawn into it with my corp.  I don't sit in low sec space just waiting to gank someon.  Instead I do my thing, support the economy and grow stronger so that I can someday go to Low Sec and help out.  Now honestly I have tried this game 3 times before this run, and played it for about 2-3 months each time.  I am pushing my 3rd month on this round and although the game is still a bit interesting, I can feel the boredom starting to take over.  The monotony of doing Level 3 missions, the monotony of scanning out people or belts or plexs, Lets not talk about the mining or production of things.  The skill system although unique in the way you can train skills is by far not ground breaking and definatly not the best I have saw.  Instead I find it one of the biggest annoyances of the game.
Now please remember that again i don't "Hate" Eve it has its place among the MMO crowd.  It has done well it is I just think that in the long run this game is not for me.
A game that is for me, well in that case there is only one that I truely enjoyed playing, and that kept me interested for a VERY long time 4 years I think.  Asheron's Call, yes a game that is 10+ years old.  Its graphics are one of the only things that are lacking in my opinion, that and Botting.  AC's Skill and attribute system were by far the best of any game out there even by todays standard.  Just the right amount of skills and the ability to raise them with experiance you make off of kills or by repeatedly useing those skills.  Quests that were unique, long and complex if you don't believe me look up the Lady Aerifall quest, or the Olthoi Queen quest.  A PvP system that was second to none, if you went RED and lived that life you were respected.  Corpse Looting was allowed but you didn't drop all of your stuff instead you dropped a set number of items that was decided by the computer, and those were supposed to be random.  A guild system that actually promoted someone to build a good guild.  Also MONTHLY updates and only 2 paid updates in 10 years, and finally a world full of Lore that is unique not just goblins, dwarfs, elves and humans.  Truely original game, and one that I am thinking I may go back to even though the graphics are not the best anymore, but it beats all the SHIAT that has being released in the last 5 years hands down.

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I think the reason you end up moving on is a pretty simple one. You haven't gotten into the territorial warfare aspects of the game. I think this happens to a lot of people. unless they feel grabbed by a social network to then hold some 0.0 or at least fight for some, there is nothing but grind.

The bulk of the lore in the game is player made, the trials over the loss of a station,. The battle that gained one. The politics of negotiating blue and then keeping it. These stories are the ones that give the game longevity.

 

While I do agree with you that the Territorial warfare aspects of the game do intrigue me, my cautious nature sees this as being a bigger time sink then anything else in the game.  Lets face it if you go out to 0.0 even with a corp within your first month or 2 your going to be living off your corp mates untill you can survive on your own.  I am a person who doesn't like to borrow isk off other players, I think buying isk online or gold online defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it skus a game a bit over inflating the economy in that game.  So being a self sufficiant person I work my butt off to get the things that I want to use, so the Risk in 0.0 really doesn't outweigh the rewards.
 

The arguement that the game doesn't really begin untill xxx, is a poor one.  I have seen far to many, "Shut up and get to level Cap then tell me if the game is easy." or "The game is a grind untill you hit level cap then the game is fun" or in Eve's case, "Once you get into 0.0 the game becomes fun".  I find all of these arguments really are self defeating, why does a game only become fun at level cap, or when you enter 0.0.  Why can't it be fun the whole time?  Asherons call was fun the entire time each level, the quests were not monotonus, exploring was interesting and fun.  It didn't matter if you were level 1 or level 125 at the time it was easy to find something fun to do, the journey was fun not the end result.  For any games where one of the above statements rings true why do you play them then?  Why not play a game like COD 4 or Day of Defeat Source, or Counterstrike source, instant gratification with little to no grind.  That is basicly what those statements want, and forgive me if I want a game that is fun to me from the begining to the level cap or area cap in Eve's case.

the game doesnt begin in 0.0, there are veteran players who have never set foot in nullsec, there are people rich enough to buy my entire alliance who have never undocked from jita 4-4.

eve is your story and you write it how you want to. if you are not having fun, its very likely to be because you are doing something that you find not fun. this is your fault. if you cannot find something that you think is fun to do in eve, then its likely not the game for you, but at least you gave it a shot.

Originally posted by zantax 

While I do agree with you that the Territorial warfare aspects of the game do intrigue me, my cautious nature sees this as being a bigger time sink then anything else in the game.  Lets face it if you go out to 0.0 even with a corp within your first month or 2 your going to be living off your corp mates untill you can survive on your own.  I am a person who doesn't like to borrow isk off other players, I think buying isk online or gold online defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it skus a game a bit over inflating the economy in that game.  So being a self sufficiant person I work my butt off to get the things that I want to use, so the Risk in 0.0 really doesn't outweigh the rewards.
 

The arguement that the game doesn't really begin untill xxx, is a poor one.  I have seen far to many, "Shut up and get to level Cap then tell me if the game is easy." or "The game is a grind untill you hit level cap then the game is fun" or in Eve's case, "Once you get into 0.0 the game becomes fun".  I find all of these arguments really are self defeating, why does a game only become fun at level cap, or when you enter 0.0.  Why can't it be fun the whole time?  Asherons call was fun the entire time each level, the quests were not monotonus, exploring was interesting and fun.  It didn't matter if you were level 1 or level 125 at the time it was easy to find something fun to do, the journey was fun not the end result.  For any games where one of the above statements rings true why do you play them then?  Why not play a game like COD 4 or Day of Defeat Source, or Counterstrike source, instant gratification with little to no grind.  That is basicly what those statements want, and forgive me if I want a game that is fun to me from the begining to the level cap or area cap in Eve's case.

First part get over having other people help you, If you think that will go away as you get an older character it won't. In fact things like capital ships which are strictly one year+ player tools are specifically designed not to work solo.

Second, Don't get stuck in the I need to be older/richer/stronger bit either. Its a mentality that cripples people in the game, because there are people that never get rid of it and keep saying that no matter how old they are. My roommate is has a three year old character that most people would die to have and swears that he can't compete

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Originally posted by zantax

While I do agree with you that the Territorial warfare aspects of the game do intrigue me, my cautious nature sees this as being a bigger time sink then anything else in the game.  Lets face it if you go out to 0.0 even with a corp within your first month or 2 your going to be living off your corp mates untill you can survive on your own.  I am a person who doesn't like to borrow isk off other players, I think buying isk online or gold online defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it skus a game a bit over inflating the economy in that game.  So being a self sufficiant person I work my butt off to get the things that I want to use, so the Risk in 0.0 really doesn't outweigh the rewards.
 
The arguement that the game doesn't really begin untill xxx, is a poor one.  I have seen far to many, "Shut up and get to level Cap then tell me if the game is easy." or "The game is a grind untill you hit level cap then the game is fun" or in Eve's case, "Once you get into 0.0 the game becomes fun".  I find all of these arguments really are self defeating, why does a game only become fun at level cap, or when you enter 0.0.  Why can't it be fun the whole time?  Asherons call was fun the entire time each level, the quests were not monotonus, exploring was interesting and fun.  It didn't matter if you were level 1 or level 125 at the time it was easy to find something fun to do, the journey was fun not the end result.  For any games where one of the above statements rings true why do you play them then?  Why not play a game like COD 4 or Day of Defeat Source, or Counterstrike source, instant gratification with little to no grind.  That is basicly what those statements want, and forgive me if I want a game that is fun to me from the begining to the level cap or area cap in Eve's case.

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the first part shows you don't work well in a large group, it is give and take to get stuff done and also that a tackle frigate or fighter bomber is cheap and easy to build in 0.0. Also 0.0 is very very rewarding in terms or cash supply.

so you can go there easily, even if you are cautious. You could also dive into logistics and supply for them if you don't want to fly much direct PvP. Or you could getinto the politics, who is blue, who is red, friendly fire analysis, defusing arguments etc.

I was also not saying that the game doesn't start till 0.0. Just that for you it seems the interest isn't maintained by anything else in the game beyond 3 months, so maybe the territorial warfare is the hook you need to have a reason to get things done.

For me, a game is easily sorted and boring after 3 months of gameplay. Sure there is a few that are fun for playability but they don't keep my mind working or interest high. but i been playing eve for 3 years now.

Basically, with EVE if you are getting tired of the gameplay you are doing, you can do something else. You mention a lot of PvE activities and how they are a grind. Without a doubt this is true, but unless you get beyond these activities and enjoy the interactions with other players you will simply leave EVE again. Remember that is fine, it is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it then don't play.

Also take what I say with a grain of salt, I have never played any other MMO. Simply because I want a persistant world above all else. For grinding for loot/levels I can play Diablo, for fast instant PvP I can play Team Fortress. For a game that I take part in its history and help build/destroy/fail/succeed with hundreds of others, I play EVE.

Originally posted by Umbrood

And CCP may be asshats at times but they are at least sticking to their guns so to speak.

 

Well said 

If it weren’t for CCP's commitment to create a unique gaming universe I would probably be playing some generic cookie cutter MMO. 

It's not like there aren't constant calls for PVP servers, end game content, and a whole host of other changes usually associated with more linear games.

It will be interesting to see how Darkfall resist these calls. If it's ever released and if it's a sandbox.


 

 Well, Darkfall is doing good, They are listening to the cummunity so it will be good (i think).

Originally posted by shadow417

 Well, Darkfall is doing good, They are listening to the cummunity so it will be good (i think).

Well thats great, the more fun sandbox MMOs on the Market the better imo.

Originally posted by shadow417

 Well, Darkfall is doing good, They are listening to the cummunity so it will be good (i think).

listening to them community? They kicked everyone out of the forums, they don't care what you think...lol....

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

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Originally posted by qazyman

It will be interesting to see how Darkfall resist these calls. If it's ever released and if it's a sandbox.

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LOL! Way to keep up with current events. It released yesterday ;)

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

At times yes EVE can be frustrating, you can actually rage at your machine because of a loss....but dude that first time i was minding my own business and some twit decided to attack for no reason than his ego and I blasted him into oblivon with one broadside....sigh....I was hooked.......

I'm not even that smart and I've been to a billion isk (game currency).....and back to being poor.  I've quit, looked for better, found none, and returned. I've been in great Alliances that have failed, and now am chewing on the corpse of the greatest game alliance that was. Been from Jita to the very edge of the universe. Hated the game, Loved the game.

If a game makes you passionate about it, gotta be good.  If a single character can change the history of the game.....gotta be things to do. 

Not saying it is your game. But it sure is mine.

Proud Member of TGRADS

Originally posted by Taram

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Originally posted by qazyman

It will be interesting to see how Darkfall resist these calls. If it's ever released and if it's a sandbox.

 

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LOL! Way to keep up with current events. It released yesterday ;)

A day late and a dollar short....story of my life.
 

In my defense I was busy playing EVE 

Sandbox games are only "unpopular" because

A) they are a bit less accessible and intimidating when you are new

and

B) Becuse there has been a HUGE LACK of them in recent years.

That said, in response to the OP, the main thing I think people dislike about the game is simply the "click to move" movement of the game.

I know when I first played Eve, I was expecting to zoom around Wing Commander style, and was a bit dissapointed.

Dont get me wrong, I do like Eve and I have 2 active accounts right now. Just saying that the movement and game mechanics are not exactly what most people expect. The gameplay actually plays out more like a RTS game then an MMO.

The final thing people dont always like is that it is definately not a game for "instant action". Sometimes it is a long time before you find a good fight, which makes it take alot of work for new players to actually find some enjoyable action so that they know what the game really has to offer.

Originally posted by Taram

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I don't agree with your statement about the skill training system screwing over new people at all though. It's a topic thats been discussed to death in these forums already.

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Don't worry about it. People who don't play EVE for at least a few months don't really understand the skill system. Trying to explain it to them is a total waste of breath. Witness the dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in these forums about how 'new players can't catch up' despite the fact that vets and newer players alike have stated time and time again that 'catching up' just really isn't important in EVE.

While I agree with what you said, I do think there is a major problem for Eve. It's not that you can "never catch up", but the major problem is that many players can not experience what the game is "really" like on their trials. Just raising learning skills to what all the "new player guides" advise will take up nearly an entire trial. This does not include that new players actually DO need to raise some base-skills to be effective, in PvE or PvP.

For PvE there is the issue of combat pilots not being able to efficiently make cash for the first month or 2, and a huge amount of (boring) mission farming. For PvP money isnt really an issue as much as frigates being one of the harder ships to efficiently pilot, not knowing which skills to train because they dont know what role they want to fit, and not being able to do anything solo as a new player. Corps are not too welcoming to characters on trial, and sure there is FW but a noob has to do quite a bit of grinding before they can join - which means skilling for PvE for a couple weeks if they dont have help (although buying the box will address this next month...)

They are changing the "new player experience" in the new expansion which is going to start youa t only 50k SP, but you will get double SP until 1.6mill. I think this is not going to help things at all and only make this problem worse.

Right now you can make a new character and be somewhat-efficient in a frigate. Youll have a few lvl 5 skills, which leaves you ready for t2 small weapons or drones depending on race. Drone interfacing for example gives 20% damage per point, so lvl 3 alone is 60% damage boost. While t2 weapons wont be a huge boost of damage for a new player, the real issue here is that they are far cheaper then going with Named weapons, and money is an issue for new pilots.

Once the expansion drops... they lose all of this. Sure they have double SP, but it will be approx TWO WEEKS before they have those same lvl 5 skills! This is actually NERFING new characters effectiveness! This is going to hurt trial accounts VERY badly. Their basically losing 750-850k SP. And sure, after that htey will have double SP for the next 800k. But think about it - if you make a new character new, you will be at 1.6mill approximately the same  time as that new player reaches 1.6 mill!  The only difference is they will be less effective for their first few weeks!

The game would be much, much more popular and welcoming to new players if they addressed this problem, and I think it is very sad that their "fix" is addressing the wrong problem, and making the real problem worse.

I made an in depth post with more precise numbers about this issue - here is a link - www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2653134#2653134

Check post #10

I have to agree with this. So many times I've tried to get into eve as a new player, and just got discouraged...

It would help if solo pvp was somewhat feasible, but it's not, and especially not for the new player. New players in MMO's don't want to jump into some guild as a noob because they bring ZERO VALUE. They want to get their feet wet in PvP first by themself and gain some value and then bring it to a group of people so they don't feel like some homeless bum coming into someones house. When you go into a game like WoW, or EQ2, or any other MMO, you can without much care just go jump into a BG, or go outside the safe city limits and get your feet wet... In EVE, for noobs, it's like "uh, I gotta config all this stuff, and I gotta find where to go, and uh, I need help? WHAT?!!!?? *cancel trial*".

There's a reason there's endless posts of people saying they've tried the trial multiple times. It's because the game has great potential, but it needs to be tweaked for noobs.

newbs in eve are welcome in lots of different corps and do bring value to pvp fleets, we always need tacklers and scouts, hell a newbie can be in an ewar cruiser within a day of starting.

the new player experience is being tweaked in the next patch and has undergone several revisions recently, however, EVE will not hold your hand and point you to the next group of dire rats, if it did, it wouldnt be the game we all love.