Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

Originally posted by rikilii

Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

I don't believe you. You first.

If you want to get away from the formula you would need to turn the focus of the game away from aggro, that is the crux of the whole sytem.  It makes tanking possible, which makes healers needed to do the tank and spank tactic.

If you made it where mobs were a little smarter and attacked people based on whatever tactics that mob type uses most often, then you could start to move away from tank and spank, but if you allow any form of holding aggro then you will get the typical formula again.

From there you could make all kinds of different ways to balance, like an FPS with offensive characters that push the attack, defensive characters that defends areas and allies and support that bolster their allies or weaken their enemies.  You could even still have tank types and healers they would just have to opperate differently.  Healers would heal if people got hurt and tanks could use knockdowns and stuns or something to save people from doom.

I'm happy with the holy trinity. To me it's a keeper. i love playing healers, buffers ,tanks, dps classes. If a game came along where you can be anything aka DCU you can bet i won't be playing it

Instead of having predetermined class paths, take a DDO style of approach to classes.

Past a certain time in the game, after a lot of experience with classes and builds, two friends and I formed a trio. We each had like 3 roles within the group, all mixed classes. I was a two weapon fighting paladin that could tank, dps, assist heal with wands, and took a level of cleric to DV the others.

Problem solved. If you want to break away from the classic dps/tank/healer NEED for an MMO, try DDO... you only need the three in really late in the game like raids. (Not saying that leveling part of the game is easy, it is pretty difficult to do some quests without healers, and most all of the dungeons are very hard on Elite without a healbot... but they are very possible to do with teamwork and diversity among the players)

The holy trinity works well for MMO's as it encourages groups through the creation of roles for the group.  To move away from group roles will lead us to be playing solo-type MMO's where we can do everything on our own.  Then what's the point in having it be an MMO.

Guild Wars doesn't pigeonhole classes into tanks, healers, and damage dealers, and the combat there works just fine.  You can kind of say that at any given time, a character either is a healer or isn't one, I guess.  Still, the lack of an aggro system and smarter AI makes the combat in Guild Wars far superior to that of, say, WoW.

The Chronicles of Spellborn makes every class a hybrid class, so every class has to deal some damage and heal some in order to be done properly.  It also avoids tanking, by instead emphasizing avoiding damage in the first place by getting out of the way.

Puzzle Pirates boarding combat system isn't class based, has no aggro system, and no concept of tanks or healers at all.  Damage is also a rather dubious concept in the boarding battles, though there is a clearer notion of damage with ships shooting each other.  The latter has a bunch of players on a single ship, though, so it's hardly a case of, this or that player dealt the damage.  I guess you could claim that people doing carpentry are "healers", but that's a stretch.

And then, of course, there is A Tale in the Desert, which completely avoids the tank/healer/damage dealer paradigm by not having combat at all.  That's probably the easiest alternative.

Holy Trinity works for me as well.

And you might as well throw CC in there also.

Originally posted by MangoXII

Originally posted by rikilii

Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

 

I don't believe you. You first.

I'm thinking about making combat more interesting by integrating a few simple aspects of realism, and making MMO combat more like movie combat (i.e. more exciting, and not just chipping away at a bunch of green bars).

Here are some basic aspects of realism that could be integrated into MMO PVE combat:

1.   It's nearly impossible to survive a fight against 2 or 3 opponents unless you are vastly superior in skill to the 2 or 3.

2.  You can't walk through other people (collision detection)

3.  You can't shoot through people (without hurting them, at least).

4.  People don't usually die from 50 cuts in sword fights.

First, I think the idea of "tanking" is stupid, because you'd never voluntarily attempt to engage multiple opponents.  A typical "holy trinity" fight involves one tank grabbing "aggro" on many enemies so they are all attacking him, while everyone else pours dps on them (usually through the tank), while the healer heals him over and over again to keep him alive.  In a more realistic model, you would try to make sure that each person is engaged with no more than one enemy, or you'd use formation tactics to take away the enemy's numerical superiority (e.g. standing in a narrow corridor). 

Unfortunately, with most current game mechanics, there's no incentive to fight this way.  There's no penalty for engaging multiple opponents, and a healer can keep your one tank alive as long as he has mana.  Simply modifying the typical game rules to include statistical disadvantages if you are targeted by more than one enemy (e.g. a damage multiplier or a decrease in your defenses), along with use of collision detection for players and npcs in combat, would encourage a whole different style of group tactics. 

Second, I the whole concept of "combat healing" is pretty lame.  Relatively few people actually enjoy doing it, and in most games, it amounts to little more than standing back and playing whack-a-mole with your party's health bars.  As an alternative, the abililty to "heal" could be secondary to combat (a way to get injured allies back into the fight or on to the next one, but not something you do while an ally is actively fighting), and those who are skilled in the healing arts would participate more directly in the fight while it is raging.  

Third, the very idea of the health bar as a single measure of physical condition is weak.  If you've ever played a game called Runequest and understand its combat system, you'll understand what I'm talking about.  In typical MMO combat, you swing your sword at a guy 20 times, you hit him 18, and each time you take a little chip away from his green bar.  Sometimes you get lucky and take a bigger chunk of his health bar.  He does the same to you, and the winner is the guy with the bigger health bar, and/or the guy who breaks off bigger chunks of the other guy's health bar. 

In the Runequest system, as in your favorite movie sword fights, you swing your sword at your opponent 20 times.  You might "hit" him 10 of those times, and out of those 10, he might parry or dodge 5.  Of those 5, 2 or 3 will glance entirely off his armor, another 1 or 2 might injure him, but not enough to kill him, and 1 might penetrate or avoid his armor and incapacitate or kill him.  The ringer is that the killing blow might come on the 20th swing, or in might come on the first one.  That is a pen and paper system.  In an MMO, you can enhance it greatly, adding skill to the mix by factoring in positioning, fatigue, falling, movement impairment from wounds, etc.  This kind of system would give you more of that movie sword fight feel.  You'd have a lot of metal clanging against metal, the occasional gash across the leg, and then all of a sudden, someone get's run through.  Prolonged tension punctuated by sudden dramatic ending.

This kind of basic combat system could be made to work quite well with a secondary healing system.

This doesn't make any sense, the holy trinity is pretty much what makes an mmo, even though some mmos might seem like they have a different system it's still there in a way. Even though some may be capable of filling two slots of the holy trinity there is always someone taking the damage and keeping the agro, someone focusing on high damage output and a healer. The only real way to get around it is to have real time combat where you can actually dodge incoming attacks etc. Any PvE MMO that doesn't at least use the holy trinity as a base for the class system will probably fall fast unles they can offer some revolutionary alternative, which I don't see happening any time soon because any mmo that tries something different these days is shot down becuase it's not like WoW, Tabula Rasa for example.  I don't really see how there is an alternative to the holy trinity in terms of PvE like WoW but PvP there are deifnately options.

Edit: rikilii I don't know what you've been playing but all those things that you say you don't like about MMOs are what make a PvE MMO. Nobody likes combat healing? I do and I know there are tons of people who do as well. I think you're best off looking for another genre.

Originally posted by rikilii

Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes. Every Western, but especially Asian, cookie cutter game followed WoW and dumped those classes or made them less important.

For the fantasy genre, as in setting, though, there's not many alternatives. the fact that no one in this thread came up with a different setting proves my point. It's not easy to find an alternative. Medievel combat is slow paced and allows for tactics, not many settings can do that.

Originally posted by bagnol

This doesn't make any sense, the holy trinity is pretty much what makes an mmo, even though some mmos might seem like they have a different system it's still there in a way. Even though some may be capable of filling two slots of the holy trinity there is always someone taking the damage and keeping the agro, someone focusing on high damage output and a healer. The only real way to get around it is to have real time combat where you can actually dodge incoming attacks etc. Any PvE MMO that doesn't at least use the holy trinity as a base for the class system will probably fall fast unles they can offer some revolutionary alternative, which I don't see happening any time soon because any mmo that tries something different these days is shot down becuase it's not like WoW, Tabula Rasa for example.  I don't really see how there is an alternative to the holy trinity in terms of PvE like WoW but PvP there are deifnately options.

 

Edit: rikilii I don't know what you've been playing but all those things that you say you don't like about MMOs are what make a PvE MMO. Nobody likes combat healing? I do and I know there are tons of people who do as well. I think you're best off looking for another genre.

Why is it that the healer is almost always the last person you find for your group?

Your assumptions about aggro and tanking are all based on the fact that no one has ever tried to do anything different.  It has nothing to do with whether a game is stat-based or twitch. 

Tanking makes sense in most MMOs because the mechanics of the MMO say it makes sense.  Simply changing the statistics would change that presumption.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by rikilii

Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

 

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes. Every Western, but especially Asian, cookie cutter game followed WoW and dumped those classes or made them less important.

For the fantasy genre, as in setting, though, there's not many alternatives. the fact that no one in this thread came up with a different setting proves my point. It's not easy to find an alternative. Medievel combat is slow paced and allows for tactics, not many settings can do that.

I can't agree with you.  WoW just combined those roles into one or more classes.  Mages are DPS and CC.  Priests are healers, buffers, mitigation, some CC, and potentially dps.  Paladins can be tanks or healers, or even dps, with buffing as well.  Rogues are CC and DPS.  Hunters are CC, DPS, buffing.  And so on.

PS:  I did come up with an alternative.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by bagnol

This doesn't make any sense, the holy trinity is pretty much what makes an mmo, even though some mmos might seem like they have a different system it's still there in a way. Even though some may be capable of filling two slots of the holy trinity there is always someone taking the damage and keeping the agro, someone focusing on high damage output and a healer. The only real way to get around it is to have real time combat where you can actually dodge incoming attacks etc. Any PvE MMO that doesn't at least use the holy trinity as a base for the class system will probably fall fast unles they can offer some revolutionary alternative, which I don't see happening any time soon because any mmo that tries something different these days is shot down becuase it's not like WoW, Tabula Rasa for example.  I don't really see how there is an alternative to the holy trinity in terms of PvE like WoW but PvP there are deifnately options.

 

Edit: rikilii I don't know what you've been playing but all those things that you say you don't like about MMOs are what make a PvE MMO. Nobody likes combat healing? I do and I know there are tons of people who do as well. I think you're best off looking for another genre.

 

Why is it that the healer is almost always the last person you find for your group?

Your assumptions about aggro and tanking are all based on the fact that no one has ever tried to do anything different.  It has nothing to do with whether a game is stat-based or twitch. 

Tanking makes sense in most MMOs because the mechanics of the MMO say it makes sense.  Simply changing the statistics would change that presumption.

I like your idea of combat, and yes it is more realistic, but i question how simple your simple combat would be to program.
 

And i certainly dont remember Healers being that last member in a group in EQ. It was usually a Healer and a Warrior looking for a chanter and maybe a shammy, Monk and something else.

Originally posted by bagnol

This doesn't make any sense, the holy trinity is pretty much what makes an mmo, even though some mmos might seem like they have a different system it's still there in a way. Even though some may be capable of filling two slots of the holy trinity there is always someone taking the damage and keeping the agro, someone focusing on high damage output and a healer. The only real way to get around it is to have real time combat where you can actually dodge incoming attacks etc. Any PvE MMO that doesn't at least use the holy trinity as a base for the class system will probably fall fast unles they can offer some revolutionary alternative, which I don't see happening any time soon because any mmo that tries something different these days is shot down becuase it's not like WoW, Tabula Rasa for example.  I don't really see how there is an alternative to the holy trinity in terms of PvE like WoW but PvP there are deifnately options.

 

Edit: rikilii I don't know what you've been playing but all those things that you say you don't like about MMOs are what make a PvE MMO. Nobody likes combat healing? I do and I know there are tons of people who do as well. I think you're best off looking for another genre.

Please try reading a thread before you reply.  As I said above, Guild Wars does not have an aggro system.  I'm not sure of the exact formulas they use to determine mob targets, but it's mainly built around mobs targetting whatever they can kill the fastest.  The game is hardly a failure.  I list some other games that don't do the tank/healer/damage dealer bit, either.

As far as no one liking combat healing, the problem is rather that not enough players like combat healing.  If an average group needs 30% of its members to be healers, and only 15% of the playerbase likes to heal, an awful lot of groups are going to have trouble finding the healers they need.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by rikilii

Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs.

There are so many other alternatives.  I have ideas.  Let's hear yours first.

 

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes. Every Western, but especially Asian, cookie cutter game followed WoW and dumped those classes or made them less important.

For the fantasy genre, as in setting, though, there's not many alternatives. the fact that no one in this thread came up with a different setting proves my point. It's not easy to find an alternative. Medievel combat is slow paced and allows for tactics, not many settings can do that.

I can't agree with you.  WoW just combined those roles into one or more classes.  Mages are DPS and CC.  Priests are healers, buffers, mitigation, some CC, and potentially dps.  Paladins can be tanks or healers, or even dps, with buffing as well.  Rogues are CC and DPS.  Hunters are CC, DPS, buffing.  And so on.

PS:  I did come up with an alternative.

Ok, healers aren't always the last person in groups, maybe in your experience but not necessarily everyone elses, Tanking in MMOs makes sense because the system is what MMOs are now, and like I said the PvE side of MMOs doesn't have any worth while gameplay alternatives. Your "alternative" is really quite irrelavent because those may work great is games like RTS and FPS but flanking, pushing back front lines or whatever belong in the said game types.If you want to play a game with your "alternative"I'm afraid you're going to have to play an FPS because it's not going to happen any time soon in a PvE MMO.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by bagnol

This doesn't make any sense, the holy trinity is pretty much what makes an mmo, even though some mmos might seem like they have a different system it's still there in a way. Even though some may be capable of filling two slots of the holy trinity there is always someone taking the damage and keeping the agro, someone focusing on high damage output and a healer. The only real way to get around it is to have real time combat where you can actually dodge incoming attacks etc. Any PvE MMO that doesn't at least use the holy trinity as a base for the class system will probably fall fast unles they can offer some revolutionary alternative, which I don't see happening any time soon because any mmo that tries something different these days is shot down becuase it's not like WoW, Tabula Rasa for example.  I don't really see how there is an alternative to the holy trinity in terms of PvE like WoW but PvP there are deifnately options.

 

Edit: rikilii I don't know what you've been playing but all those things that you say you don't like about MMOs are what make a PvE MMO. Nobody likes combat healing? I do and I know there are tons of people who do as well. I think you're best off looking for another genre.

 

Please try reading a thread before you reply.  As I said above, Guild Wars does not have an aggro system.  I'm not sure of the exact formulas they use to determine mob targets, but it's mainly built around mobs targetting whatever they can kill the fastest.  The game is hardly a failure.  I list some other games that don't do the tank/healer/damage dealer bit, either.

As far as no one liking combat healing, the problem is rather that not enough players like combat healing.  If an average group needs 30% of its members to be healers, and only 15% of the playerbase likes to heal, an awful lot of groups are going to have trouble finding the healers they need.

Guild Wars is a lot different to a lot of MMOs because the gameplay and control scheme are completely different, not to mention it's mostly focussed on PvP. I don't mean that the games will 100% fail but if anyone expects to get near WoW's sub base they probably aren't going to get it without using the holy trinity because the 3 main MMORPGs out at the moment are using it and it works. And the percentages of healers is irrelavent, if there's a need it will be filled, I'm sure you've seen/ heard of people so devoted to their guild/clan/whatever that they play the class that is needed for the guild.

Originally posted by Waterlily 

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes.

Rubbish. Instead of having specialised classes that were only good for one thing; the pulling / CC / Buffing (etc) mechanics that you describe were incorporated into existing classes resulting in a more complex game experience that would arguably require more skill, not less.

Though WotLK did reduce the difficulty curve, no argument there.

I like the trinity; it's simple .. it works .. and it's a hell of a lot better than any of the other "alternatives" that I've ever seen/read about.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Waterlily 

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes.

Rubbish. Instead of having specialised classes that were only good for one thing; the pulling / CC / Buffing (etc) mechanics that you describe were incorporated into existing classes resulting in a more complex game experience that would arguably require more skill, not less.

Though WotLK did reduce the difficulty curve, no argument there.

I like the trinity; it's simple .. it works .. and it's a hell of a lot better than any of the other "alternatives" that I've ever seen/read about.

Not Rubbish. Everyone is a tank in WoW, everyone is DPS in WoW, everyone is a buffer in WoW, everyone can PULL in WoW, everyone can mitigate in WoW.

What do you have in WoW? A single player game full of kids. GG.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Waterlily 

There is pulling / CC / Bufing / Slowing / Mitigation and many other options available, but since WoW came out they dumped the idea of specific classes. I guess 4 year olds can't handle more than 3 classes.

Rubbish. Instead of having specialised classes that were only good for one thing; the pulling / CC / Buffing (etc) mechanics that you describe were incorporated into existing classes resulting in a more complex game experience that would arguably require more skill, not less.

Though WotLK did reduce the difficulty curve, no argument there.

I like the trinity; it's simple .. it works .. and it's a hell of a lot better than any of the other "alternatives" that I've ever seen/read about.

in EQ it did take more skill than you see in lets say WoW?. Reason for that was agro management. being a specialized class you had to manage your agro carefully. Since ihave played both extensively for several years each i can tell you that WoW requires very little skill. Playing a Rogue , Mage or Lock in WoW is easy mode They have one or two crowd control forms where as the Enchanter from EQ had a whole range. You could effectivly CC very big crowds all at once. in WoW there is no need for mass crowd control making the game easy mode. I played the endgame in both games. in EQ up until PoP expansion and WoW until WotLK.

Same goes for pulling classes. Agro management being the prime concern. Again something that is missing in WoW since most if not all instanced has very few connected mobs. sure you need a puller in WoW.. hunter being the best at it, the job is an easy one. EQ had feign death to control these things you had to carefully time. in WoW all you do is stand around and wait until the patrol passes a certain point before pulling. I can see how that takes any kind of skill. EQ had pulling down to an artform not many could perform well.

WoW did dumb down classes by giving them multiple purposes. Most classes able to CC has one or two spells to concentrate on and that's it. Couple with the fact instances in WoW making CC even easier. Same goes for pulling.

Hmm to come at it from another angle, I've actually come to like omni do-anything tank-mage-healer-dps-puller-crowdcontrol classes (or no classes). It allows for some more tactical depth to the gameplay because you have to decide which function to emphasize at any given moment.

Originally posted by bagnol

Guild Wars is a lot different to a lot of MMOs because the gameplay and control scheme are completely different, not to mention it's mostly focussed on PvP. I don't mean that the games will 100% fail but if anyone expects to get near WoW's sub base they probably aren't going to get it without using the holy trinity because the 3 main MMORPGs out at the moment are using it and it works. And the percentages of healers is irrelavent, if there's a need it will be filled, I'm sure you've seen/ heard of people so devoted to their guild/clan/whatever that they play the class that is needed for the guild.

So wait, your point is that every game in existence does something, except for the ones that don't?  No game that does go the healer/tank/damage dealer route has anything remotely approaching WoW's subscription numbers apart from WoW itself.  If one excludes WoW, it's unclear which game has the largest playerbase, but it's plausible that it could be Guild Wars, as the game is still getting a little shy of 100k new accounts (not recurring subscription charges or even returning players who played, quit, and came back) per month.

And no, Guild Wars isn't mostly focused on PvP.  The game has a PvP side and a PvE side, each of which is arguably a complete game in itself.  The PvE does have a little more of a PvP feel to it than most other games, as killing mobs is less about manipulating AI to make mobs act incredibly stupid.  But that's one of the things that makes the PvE in Guild Wars so good.

Finally, the percentages of players who want to play a healer is very relevant.  Suppose that there are 100 players online who want to do a given dungeon in groups of five.  Suppose that ten of them are healers, and each group needs exactly one healer.  There are only enough for ten groups to have a healer, so only 50 of the 100 players can get a group.  The other 50 are stuck with the dilemma that you need a healer to do some content, and you're unable to get a healer.  That's hardly irrelevant.  That's game-breaking, and really no better than if the other 50 players simply couldn't connect to the game servers that day.

Are there people who play healers mainly because more healers are needed?  Yes, and that mitigates the problem somewhat, but doesn't solve it.  Without that factor, there might have only been five healers in the above case.

Originally posted by Cydmab

Hmm to come at it from another angle, I've actually come to like omni do-anything tank-mage-healer-dps-puller-crowdcontrol classes (or no classes). It allows for some more tactical depth to the gameplay because you have to decide which function to emphasize at any given moment.

What you like i absolutely hate. Players have no identity in those games outside your own personality. One of the things that drew me to MMO's in the first place was filling a class role i could do better than most. Being known for being a very skilled player people would WANT in their groups. I also liked being needed.

We all have horror stories where we had to disband our groups because we couldn't find a healer or tank etc but to me that added another motivation to the game to create an alt. If i knew tanks were in demand i would make one and love being wanted to join groups. Same goes for any class be it DPS, CC, Puller, Healer, Buffer etc. Coming from Hellgate London where a group setup could be anything you wanted and still able to get the job done just made you anonymous and the game so much easier. Easier is not the road i want my MMO to take.

I don't like every class being able to perform any role which is why you won't see me in DCU. Specializing is where the fun is at. You are better able to create a world reputation that way. In WoW and the like you are more or less anonymous. in games such as EQ everybody knew who the good and the bad players were.

Originally posted by Fibsdk 

What you like i absolutely hate. Players have no identity in those games outside your own personality. One of the things that drew me to MMO's in the first place was filling a class role i could do better than most. Being known for being a very skilled player people would WANT in their groups. I also liked being needed.

We all have horror stories where we had to disband our groups because we couldn't find a healer or tank etc but to me that added another motivation to the game to create an alt. If i knew tanks were in demand i would make one and love being wanted to join groups. Same goes for any class be it DPS, CC, Puller, Healer, Buffer etc. Coming from Hellgate London where a group setup could be anything you wanted and still able to get the job done just made you anonymous and the game so much easier. Easier is not the road i want my MMO to take.

I don't like every class being able to perform any role which is why you won't see me in DCU. Specializing is where the fun is at. You are better able to create a world reputation that way. In WoW and the like you are more or less anonymous. in games such as EQ everybody knew who the good and the bad players were.

This. In EQ everyone knew when you messed up because the casters and healers getting hit a few times usually meant a wipe. A puller bringing 2 mobs was a wipe without CC. An enc not being able to CC and add, wipe. The class ability should make you shine, the skill you have by playing in groups. 

Anyway, I just agree.

Skill-based sandbox!

Forget about defenders, priests and berserkers! Now you can play as the stealthy THIEF or the drunken PIRATE! You also have the skillful TINKER, the hardworking MINER or even the lovely COOK.

Now, seriously, I never really liked the 3-role system. Mainly because I'm not a PvE fan. And as for PvP, I preffer skill-based games all the way, that give you freedom to make your own role.

The only PvE game which I really got into was FFXI, and it wasn't based on that 3-role system anyway. Most of the times you couldn't switch your blackmage (ranged dps) for an archer (ranged dps) depending on the dungeon your group was in. I think tankers were more generalized, but the support classes were pretty unique, I suppose. Bards, blue mages, red mages and such couldn't be replaced equally in most of the cases.