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Originally posted by SignusM No idea what they're doing? They're showing more foresight than Blizzard did.
When more people than the estimated numbers showed interest in WoW, what did Blizzard do? Sell as many copies as possible, and then have their servers crash every 10 minutes for the first few weeks because they couldn't handle the load.
What did Aventurine do? They limited the number of copies that people could buy so they wouldn't sell more copies than their servers could handle. They opted for their fan's playing experience over making more money.
Who sounds more professional? (pro tip, its not Blizzard)
Its kind of sad that the vapor trolls are left with nothing to say really. For years they got their rocks off saying this game was a basement scam using Gmod. Now all they can hope for is "this game will fail, cause that's the last excuse I've got left!"
What it shows is they havent done a stress test and need to add players in small amounts at a time to make sure the servers can handle that magic 10k at one time number. I wouldnt call it foresight, I would call it a paid stress test. |
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Originally posted by gamerman98
Hahaha, this is epic. "i think im 1337 so i call everything fail emo gamer". Too bad I don't think I'm "1337", as a matter of fact, I expect to get my ass handed to me quite often in Darkfall, but I'll enjoy every bit of it when I take down someone myself. Yes, subscribers DO matter, and it DOES matter to an extent for one's success. But you fail to see that Darkfall can be a success, even if it's subscriber base doesn't reach the heights of LOTRO , WoW, or any other game on the market. This game isn't for most people, since most people can't handle a FFA PvP environment. That's not dissing anyone who plays games like WoW, AoC, or any other themepark game, because I've played my fair share as well, it's merely that a lot of people will not like the fact that their items will drop and be looted when they die, will not like the fact that people can kill anyone, anytime, and will quit. So by your logic, since Darkfall doesn't appeal to the masses (because again, the masses WILL NOT ENJOY Darkfall), it fails? No, it sure doesn't. |
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Originally posted by epoq
For me, WoW did not crash every 10 minutes for the first few weeks. It was more like once a day with a couple of 12 hour maintenance cycles (in addition to the normal tuesday ones). Lag spikes were more the issue. As one who played at release, I encountered very few problems with the early WoW. Anyways, I would not call Aventurine's handling of this ordering process professional. Just reading folks' queries you can tell there are tons of mis-orders and the simple fact that people don't know if they are in the pre-order or not. Hell, half the posters can't tell the difference between the account creation process and the pre-order process. That is not the players' fault, it is squarely AV's fault (they should be more clear with a better online handling system). With WoW, you, at the very least, had your box and pretty much everyone knew if the account was live or not. Billing was NEVER a problem for Blizzard. I can appreciate Aventurine's idea of a staggered release. That idea is very smart. The implementation of such has been very much less than "professional."
Agreed. Their handling of the entire pre-order process was definitely not professional. They don't even have any solid info on the main page of their site, minus a release schedule link to the forum. These guys have absolutely no idea what they are doing when it comes to marketing, and ultimately that could make or break a game. Doesn't really even matter if the game was pure gold, which I'm already thinking it's not, if you don't know how to market it, no one will play it.
Except for all of the people on here waiting for it, who managed to sell out the pre-orders.
Definately.. nobody is gonna play this game. 
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Originally posted by Kasmos
Hahaha, this is epic. "i think im 1337 so i call everything fail emo gamer". Too bad I don't think I'm "1337", as a matter of fact, I expect to get my ass handed to me quite often in Darkfall, but I'll enjoy every bit of it when I take down someone myself. Yes, subscribers DO matter, and it DOES matter to an extent for one's success. But you fail to see that Darkfall can be a success, even if it's subscriber base doesn't reach the heights of LOTRO , WoW, or any other game on the market. This game isn't for most people, since most people can't handle a FFA PvP environment. That's not dissing anyone who plays games like WoW, AoC, or any other themepark game, because I've played my fair share as well, it's merely that a lot of people will not like the fact that their items will drop and be looted when they die, will not like the fact that people can kill anyone, anytime, and will quit. So by your logic, since Darkfall doesn't appeal to the masses (because again, the masses WILL NOT ENJOY Darkfall), it fails? No, it sure doesn't.
Some would swear on salt that WoW was in fact the biggest failure of MMO history due to it's radical change of instant gratafication/gameplay goodies. The opinion of the masses is nay unless the target playerbase itself dislikes the game. Only when you start seeing every single fanboy voicing their dissaproval, and every single person who plays unsubscribing shortly after subscribing, only then is it really a failure. I judge a fail/succeed on whether it gets enough subscribers to keep modifying the game and at the same time, the subscriptions lenghts half to be stable. AOC for example had 700k+ in its peak subscriptions but funcom released a budget report stating that they are worth only around 34million and losing around 32million per fiscal quarter. In other words, in less then 4 months funcom will be practically broke unless they kill one of their MMO's. Atm AOC has less than 100k active subscribers, estimated around 70k-90k. That is what i call a failure, when a MMO failes to keep its subscribers and drives the company near bankrupt. Some people only talk sh!t online. I'll talk sh!t online and i'll say it to your face. |
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Originally posted by Kasmos
Hahaha, this is epic. "i think im 1337 so i call everything fail emo gamer". Too bad I don't think I'm "1337", as a matter of fact, I expect to get my ass handed to me quite often in Darkfall, but I'll enjoy every bit of it when I take down someone myself. Yes, subscribers DO matter, and it DOES matter to an extent for one's success. But you fail to see that Darkfall can be a success, even if it's subscriber base doesn't reach the heights of LOTRO , WoW, or any other game on the market. This game isn't for most people, since most people can't handle a FFA PvP environment. That's not dissing anyone who plays games like WoW, AoC, or any other themepark game, because I've played my fair share as well, it's merely that a lot of people will not like the fact that their items will drop and be looted when they die, will not like the fact that people can kill anyone, anytime, and will quit. So by your logic, since Darkfall doesn't appeal to the masses (because again, the masses WILL NOT ENJOY Darkfall), it fails? No, it sure doesn't.
Subscriptions are the basis of success in this industry. If a game does not reach a certain number of subscriptions, how will they be able to afford to continue putting out new material, paying their staff, hiring new staff, etc? I've got no idea what the numbers are for Adventurine, how much money they've truly put into the game, and what kind of numbers they need to reach to meet their quotas, but if they don't, then the game won't last long. Also just because a game is "hardcore FFA" and isn't for "themepark gamers" doesn't mean that the game is GOOD. They could very easily have good ideas with extremely poor execution of them, and fail. All in all, just like every Darkfall forum thread up until this point in time, doesn't really matter until tomorrow when the game goes live, where we can all run around a Euro server looking for people to band with who speak English. |
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i know blah blah blah blah blah...the same crap every other tacos ass kisser has said over the last week. But no i dont fail to see that DF can be a success. Anyone who knows anything about selling and maintaining ANY form of product knows FOR A FACT that with out the proper interest you will not gain the right amount of income to maintain said product. MMORPG games are no different. sure it has a fanbase, but making these games and maintaining these games cost lots of money that they dont have. See the difference between our views is that im looking at it from a business point of view, while you are looking at it as just a fan like everyone else. I guarantee you that if i were to put together a team to make a indie MMO like DF not only would i have people hating on the product because its not made by a mainstream developer, but I would know that it would not be able to survive without a successful profit.
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Originally posted by Zenasa
Agreed. Their handling of the entire pre-order process was definitely not professional. They don't even have any solid info on the main page of their site, minus a release schedule link to the forum. These guys have absolutely no idea what they are doing when it comes to marketing, and ultimately that could make or break a game. Doesn't really even matter if the game was pure gold, which I'm already thinking it's not, if you don't know how to market it, no one will play it.
Except for all of the people on here waiting for it, who managed to sell out the pre-orders.
Definately.. nobody is gonna play this game. Zing. |
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Originally posted by denshing
My Harmony pwns Tasos....lol Hello Kitty Online actually is a very good game if you like that sort of thing. Just some thoughts since you brought up DF vs. HKO... I can't think of two games being at so opposite ends of the gaming spectrum: FFA PVP vs. Carebear land; Gritty reality vs. cartoonville; Kill or be killed vs. cooporation and puzzles being the main focus; Asshats and trash talking l33tists vs. a very friendly and helpful community; A vast but empty world vs. a small but adventure packed one, and so on. Ironicly, both games take a lot of flack from the MMORPG community. Which one is better? I don't know for it depends on what you like. What game seems to be the more polished and professional product? That is an easy one to answer: Hello Kitty Online. |
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Originally posted by Korhindi
My Harmony pwns Tasos....lol Hello Kitty Online actually is a very good game if you like that sort of thing. Just some thoughts since you brought up DF vs. HKO... I can't think of two games being at so opposite ends of the gaming spectrum: FFA PVP vs. Carebear land; Gritty reality vs. cartoonville; Kill or be killed vs. cooporation and puzzles being the main focus; Asshats and trash talking l33tists vs. a very friendly and helpful community; A vast but empty world vs. a small but adventure packed one, and so on. Ironicly, both games take a lot of flack from the MMORPG community. Which one is better? I don't know for it depends on what you like. What game seems to be the more polished and professional product? That is an easy one to answer: Hello Kitty Online.
Gritty reality ... roflcopter of lolnuke... yes orcs are soo realistic,it's not gritty nor dark,it's just a cartoon with very bad graphics,soo they couldnt put in the rainbows. |
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Originally posted by SignusM
Agreed. Their handling of the entire pre-order process was definitely not professional. They don't even have any solid info on the main page of their site, minus a release schedule link to the forum. These guys have absolutely no idea what they are doing when it comes to marketing, and ultimately that could make or break a game. Doesn't really even matter if the game was pure gold, which I'm already thinking it's not, if you don't know how to market it, no one will play it.
Except for all of the people on here waiting for it, who managed to sell out the pre-orders.
Definately.. nobody is gonna play this game. Zing.
The generation of popular hype does not guarantee a professional product. That was the gist of what I was saying. That and the fact that certain recolections of WoW are exaggerated to pimp an otherwise sorry ordering set up. The game itself seems pretty cool, but what good is that if one cannot get in to try it, or if potential customers will not give the game a try for fear of lack of trust on the managing companies part? I see tons of interest in Darkfall (myself included). What I also see is pure chaos in how to participate in DF. Hopefully, once release comes and goes Aventurine will get its billing/ordering system fixed so that others can play too. |
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Originally posted by demolishIX
Gritty reality ... roflcopter of lolnuke... yes orcs are soo realistic,it's not gritty nor dark,it's just a cartoon with very bad graphics,soo they couldnt put in the rainbows.
Don't you know? Orcs are real! Anyone who has worked customer service would know that. |
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But for Darkfall this is a success? Thats odd what is a fialure for one MMO is a success for another? Hrmmmm something isnt making sense here. Its either one or the other. Darkfalls so revolutionary it uninstalls itself. |
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Originally posted by TrueWarrior1
But for Darkfall this is a success? Thats odd what is a fialure for one MMO is a success for another? Hrmmmm something isnt making sense here. Its either one or the other.
I suppose it would come down to an issue of profitability. If a game can turn a profit with only 25,000 subs, then it may well be "more successful" than a money loser at 250,000 subs. But yeah, usually, the more subs the better.... |
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Originally posted by Kasmos
And when it doesn't I can say, "Suck on this gamerman98!" ? God, some of you people really want this game to fail, don't you?
Why do you act so surprised, given that your original post was clearly meant to provoke it? And they wonder why the DF community has earned such a poor reputation.... And, for the record, I don't want DF to fail. I hope it does quite well, but AV has mishandled their own game through the prelaunch phase pretty badly. Perhaps it will get better/smoother soon, but given their track record and the things they are stumbling on, I doubt it. |
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damian7
Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/20/06
why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid? |
Originally posted by Kasmos
hi, in the interest of spreading knowledge and eliminating ignorance online... please take this moment to go to wikipedia.org, do a search for "vaporware", go to the vaporware page, read thru the vaporware page, read this page WITH COMPREHENSION turned on (if it means the page must be read multiple times, words looked up, whatever -- read it WITH comprehension)...
THEN, use the term "vaporware" CORRECTLY.
that term, vaporware, still applies to darkfall. in the sense you're using it, i could call you an umbrella pelican and i would be using the term as incorrectly as you are using the term vaporware.
being ignorant (i.e. not educated on a topic, which is the definition of the word ignorant) on a term (in our case vaporware), does not make your ill-use of the term correct. just because you think that the word encyclopedia means "big race car" -- it does not turn encyclopedias into big race cars... same with the term 'vaporware'.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please? |
Originally posted by gamerman98 wow flamerman88 your so cool i wanna be just like you. how do you do it? bash a videogame and all? you must have a pretty big pair to bash on something that cant fight back. im guessing your the type of kid who gets all of his friends and goes and beats up a little twelve year old. pathetic. btw i didnt preorder df nor do i plan on buying it tomorrow but if i hear good things about it i might check it out. i dont limit my horizon like you do. good look with sitting in your parents basement with no one or nothing to bash while ppl try out a game that has been pretty anticipated by the hardcore pvpers. i wont be playing cuz i have to go to college, get a good education, then go to work |
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damian7
Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/20/06
why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid? |
Originally posted by SignusM No idea what they're doing? They're showing more foresight than Blizzard did.
When more people than the estimated numbers showed interest in WoW, what did Blizzard do? Sell as many copies as possible, and then have their servers crash every 10 minutes for the first few weeks because they couldn't handle the load.
What did Aventurine do? They limited the number of copies that people could buy so they wouldn't sell more copies than their servers could handle. They opted for their fan's playing experience over making more money.
Who sounds more professional? (pro tip, its not Blizzard)
Its kind of sad that the vapor trolls are left with nothing to say really. For years they got their rocks off saying this game was a basement scam using Gmod. Now all they can hope for is "this game will fail, cause that's the last excuse I've got left!"
being someone who was in on both the beta and retail release of wow, i feel that since i was there, i can correct your erroneous views, since you 1 are a community manager with darkfall, and 2 seem to have no idea how wow was at retail release.
firstly... there was nowhere near the percentage of people having problems setting up accounts, billing etc with blizzard/wow as there are with av/darkfall. so you need to take into account this, along with av has to be the ONLY gaming company that has suffered a dos (denial of service) attack in recent memory (or at least one that took them down). av seems to have an idea of how many people want to sign up initially. do they not have money to purchase the hardware, or bandwidth, to accomodate that many people? or, are they concerned that all the things they didn't test during beta (a good max population stress test comes to mind), will bite them in the butt and they're trying to isolate the issues to semi-populated servers? what server EXACTLY were you on that went down every 10 minutes for the first few weeks? did you stand around in ironforge 24/7 for the first weeks and never tried to leave the city for some reason? other than that, i have no idea how it was possible for you to have a server go down every 10 minutes for the first few weeks.
so which server, by name, is it that you played on which went down every 10 minutes for the first few weeks? or did tasos tell you, as a darkfall community rep, to spread outright lies about other games in order to try to do damage control for darkfall? after asking several friends (who also beta'd and were in at the initial retail for wow), if they could remember ANY server going down every 10 minutes for the first few weeks, no one could recall. i say this, having spent most of the first month on the Hyjal server, which was EASILY the worst server for the first 6 months of retail, and it was no where near as bad as your statement.
vaporware... yet another "poaster" that does not know the definition of the word "vaporware". please go to wikipedia.org, search for the term 'vaporware', read the vaporware entry WITH comprehension; then, moving forward, please use the word correctly. even if darkfall releases tomorrow and is up for the next 100 years, BY DEFINITION, it is vaporware. so, should we start calling people who intentionally use the term "vaporware" incorrectly -- darktards? i mean, there is no such thing as a 'vaporware troll' in the sense that it is being used by darktards... i.e. it could be used correctly in that people trolling darkfall by correctly calling it vaporware are labeled vaporware trolls; BUT, that is not the sense it is being used. so, should we then label individuals incorrectly using this term, as darktards; seeing as this term is fitting to darkfall fans attempting to belittle others, yet doing so by incorrectly using terms?
edit: typo could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please? |
Originally posted by SignusM No idea what they're doing? They're showing more foresight than Blizzard did.
When more people than the estimated numbers showed interest in WoW, what did Blizzard do? Sell as many copies as possible, and then have their servers crash every 10 minutes for the first few weeks because they couldn't handle the load.
What did Aventurine do? They limited the number of copies that people could buy so they wouldn't sell more copies than their servers could handle. They opted for their fan's playing experience over making more money.
Who sounds more professional? (pro tip, its not Blizzard)
Its kind of sad that the vapor trolls are left with nothing to say really. For years they got their rocks off saying this game was a basement scam using Gmod. Now all they can hope for is "this game will fail, cause that's the last excuse I've got left!" Problem is, AV is going into extreme with the restrictions. I mean, who would want to slow down their business on purpose? And btw, Blizzard did what any regular business does - they make too much of a product in case it does really sell out. There is no reason NOT to think your product wont sell, unless its crap? As a manager, wouldn't you rather be overstocked then sold out ? Bliz tried to be overstocked, but they underestimated their sales.. by a lot! Hence all the problems with the servers.It was a bad call, but it didnt last long. I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time. |
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Originally posted by jimmyman99 Problem is, AV is going into extreme with the restrictions. I mean, who would want to slow down their business on purpose? And btw, Blizzard did what any regular business does - they make too much of a product in case it does really sell out. There is no reason NOT to think your product wont sell, unless its crap? As a manager, wouldn't you rather be overstocked then sold out ? Bliz tried to be overstocked, but they underestimated their sales.. by a lot! Hence all the problems with the servers.It was a bad call, but it didnt last long.
In the real world its all about anticipation and compensation. When we were setting up the infrastructure for this company we were contracted to, we didnt just anticipate the here and now. That would have been stupid as all hell. If we just set up the servers and the backbone to handle what they had without compensating for what would/could happen a year from that point, they would have been in the same boat as they were when we were first hired. The rule is, when setting up for say the use of 100 people that you know will be using the service, you add half that number to the 100 and multiply by 2. You figure you will have 100 people using the service, you compensate and allow for 300. The problem Blizzard faced was expecting servers to balance as they filled up and that they didnt need all that many servers from the start (preorders only allow you to know a small percentage of your overall base). The first week was bad due to servers hitting max pop in the first few days and the pounding the login/authentication servers took from everyone and their grandmothers trying to log in. After that first week it was smooth with the only issues being the random stuck in loot mode bug. Aventurines problem is they really have no idea what their servers can handle, so instead of your normal MMO launch its more like a pay to play stress test (hence the limited release). Sure its an easy way to make it look as though it was the smoothest launch ever, but there will be a few people left waiting for a chance to get in. And those who are waiting may decide to not bother playing due to negative word of mouth from friends and reviews, so Aventurine might actually hurt themselves more in the long run. |
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Originally posted by fyerwall Thats exactly why I am so critical of AV. Its like they are a business that wants to make money but.. they don't want to make a lot of money, just a little bit. I understand business caution, but this is like cutting off your hand just because you paper cut your finger. Weird business practice. I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time. |
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Originally posted by jimmyman99 Thats exactly why I am so critical of AV. Its like they are a business that wants to make money but.. they don't want to make a lot of money, just a little bit. I understand business caution, but this is like cutting off your hand just because you paper cut your finger. Weird business practice. May not be as weird as you think of a practice. Let me explain: I worked as the General Manager for a computer company in 2000 that was owned by a German lady. Boot magazine had a challenge to build the fastest, and highest quality machine. We built one that beat every one they tested by an average of 30% but she wouldn't let us send it to them because "we can't be without those parts for 30 days". The winners of the competition? Falcon Northwest and Alienware. As my wife said later "it was like she didn't want to grow the business and make money" It may not be as strange Jimmy as you think. Remember much of Europe has Socialistic ideas and wants everything to be equal and a shade of grey. They don't have the step all over everyone way of thinking we have here in the states. Now I will admit I have run the numbers and can't see how they can stay afloat with less then15K subs just to pay the payments on the business loans of 10 mil. euros, and that is with no salaries, rent, taxes, server rentals, internet backbone, etc.... |
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I'm sure the majority of us are thrilled this game is finally launching because were tired of it and its community........Go ahead and blindly hand them your money but absolutely do not say one word when this game is not what you thought it would be.......We dont want to hear a peep from you fanbois about this game....You say its the greatest game ever and this mickey mouse company is great so you have made your bed, now sleep in it. |
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I'll believe it when I can purchase the game and log in. Otherwise, its just the moon landing shot in the Holleywood back lot all over again MMORPG Characters immortalized! |
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yeah no point in bashing a game...its best to let the fanboi's pay to fix the game...then the rest can get in on it if its good.... WOW launched when the mmo player base was much smaller, they have pretty much gobbled up the increased number of players in mmo's over the last couple of years.... This gave wow a lot of cash and resources, to build good solid expansions..... When i say good and solid..it in pure business terms....as long as the subs keep increasing its good....blizz shouldnt bother about the rants of the minority..... Its not the sub quality or the numbers or churn that counts, what matters is your balance sheet..... DF on the other hand has a lot to prove, lets just see how it works out...people will eventually play the game if its good...even if they bash it now...... With so much competition coming up in the new mmo's ..they have to sprint right off the blocks...or they wouldnt corner enough of subs to keep the game alive....until the completion heats up later this year...... In a recession, no investor is going to chuck a lot of money at DF..unless the game is perfect..... Every product has a life cycle...wow is nearing its end..blizz knows that..and are thefore obviously planning their next big mmo. |
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