Doubt they will change it, and they are right.  First person is just more immersive.  They are doing first person right as well with true first person.

i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.

Originally posted by miagisan

i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.

I disagree.  I think that is almost as ignorant as saying that being able to get off of your ship in a space game is a requirement.  EVE is a perfectly viable game and you can't see your avatar, clothing, or emotes. 

First person is almost always more immersive even if you prefer it the other way around.  I didn't believe this until I was forced to run around first person in Darkfall when it is a much more tense environment.  I guess thought that is an opinion.  I wouldn't care about 3rd person being optional except that I think twitch based PvP with sneaking is more fun with forced first person where you actually have to turn your character to see behind you.  I find it entirely unrealistic and uninspired to be able to attack in front of you while looking backwards with the camera so I would hope if there was 3rd person it still was bound to your characters FOV.

No one needs TPV. Star Vault can add in-game mirrors for all you narcissists.

Originally posted by miagisan

i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.

Have you ever consider that TPV can be used to look around corners if there is a player there, or spin the camera around to see if someone is sneaking up on you while you are fighting a mob?

TPV.....NO THANKS

Originally posted by Torgrim

Have you ever consider that TPV can be used to look around corners if there is a player there, or spin the camera around to see if someone is sneaking up on you while you are fighting a mob?

 

TPV.....NO THANKS

If the camera is free roaming or the viewpoint is too far behind the player, then yes you can use it to look around corners. 

TPV immersion vs. FPV immersion is a preference and there really isn't anything to discuss about who is right or wrong.  I think they both equally important to make a game feel fluid, and any development team that completely disregards one is making a terrible mistake.

---

Originally posted by thinktank001
If the camera is free roaming or the viewpoint is too far behind the player, then yes you can use it to look around corners. 
 
TPV immersion vs. FPV immersion is a preference and there really isn't anything to discuss about who is right or wrong.  I think they both equally important to make a game feel fluid, and any development team that completely disregards one is making a terrible mistake.

---

Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.

Originally posted by joshe

 

plenty successful FPV RPGs on the market without TPV.
So maybe reconsider again what you said about those "terrible mistakes".

 

Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.

Pull your head out of your ass and read what I wrote.  I did not say anything about it not being successful.  I said it was a terrible mistake because you are excluding a portion of your possible players, and it limits the amount things you can do.

Interaction with the environment and gauging distances is much more realistic in TPV.   It actually opens up the game to more platform type elements.   Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a  TPV.  A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives ( i.e. same as bringing a binoculars along on a sight seeing trip ).

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by joshe

 

plenty successful FPV RPGs on the market without TPV.
So maybe reconsider again what you said about those "terrible mistakes".

 

Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.

 

Pull your head out of your ass and read what I wrote.  I did not say anything about it not being successful.  I said it was a terrible mistake because you are excluding a portion of your possible players, and it limits the amount things you can do.

  

Interaction with the environment and gauging distances is much more realistic in TPV.   It actually opens up the game to more platform type elements.   Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a  TPV.  A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives ( i.e. same as bringing a binoculars along on a sight seeing trip ).

I indulge you to go and read the various topics discussing FPV and TPV on the MO official forums.

How is it a terrible mistake to not add TPV? Care to explain in detail? FPV a game design decision made by the devs, many of the core features of MO, like the combat system, are designed around the fact that the game will be FPV and FPV only. If they were to add TPV in this stage they would have to redesign quite a few of the games features, which will add months to the development time and also steer the game away from its original concept, which is a fully FPV experience.

How exactly is interaction with the environment more realistic in TPV? I'd say it's quite the opposite. In FPV you see the world and interact with the world as if you are the character, you see the world through the eyes of your character. In TPV you are the puppet master who's hovering above the character and manipulating it.

How can you state that melee combat will always look more fluid and professional in TPV? That's a completely subjective opinion and there is no factual proof to back that claim. I'd say games like Mount&Blade and Dark Messiah have very fluid melee combat. Furthermore, even if you believe that every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid, how on earth can you claim MO won't be? You have not played the game so making such a claim is simply stupid.

Again, claiming that "a game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewing perspectives" is a completely subjective opinion and should not be stated as fact. Furthermore, playing in TPV has many advantages over FPV, so basically adding TPV would mean that all competitive players would be forced to play in TPV all the time, since it will give them the edge in battle.

So, in conclusion, the..

main reasons why MO will not have TPV:

- game features are designed around FPV and would need to be changed or removed when TPV is added.

- TPV has various advantages over FPV when it comes to combat. TPV would force all competitive players to always use TPV, because it gives them an advantage.

- the developers believe that for their game FPV will provide a more immersive gaming experience. (Note: they are not saying FPV is more immersive than TPV in all games, they are just saying that it's more immersive in the game that they have made.)

I think it sucks ass, the game seems like it could be really awesome, but it blows goats that they won't even have the option of zooming out.

If someone wants to play in first person, they can, if someone wants to play in 3rd they should be able to, who's to say which is more immersive?

What's the point of alienating people in todays tooth and nail market?

It's the Unreal engine for frik sake, what a waste of a liscense.

---

Originally posted by trembulant
I think it sucks ass, the game seems like it could be really awesome, but it blows goats that they won't even have the option of zooming out.
If someone wants to play in first person, they can, if someone wants to play in 3rd they should be able to, who's to say which is more immersive?
What's the point of alienating people in todays tooth and nail market?
It's the Unreal engine for frik sake, what a waste of a liscense.

---

Someone said that fpv would be "excluding a portion of possible players".
Those would be small % in the background of all players attracted by FPV only mmorpgame.

Originally posted by trembulant

I think it sucks ass, the game seems like it could be really awesome, but it blows goats that they won't even have the option of zooming out.

If someone wants to play in first person, they can, if someone wants to play in 3rd they should be able to, who's to say which is more immersive?

What's the point of alienating people in todays tooth and nail market?

It's the Unreal engine for frik sake, what a waste of a liscense.

Are you just trolling or did you not even read the post that I made just before you?! I gave very clear reasons as to why adding TPV is out of the question.

You say not adding TPV will alienate people. Well, adding TPV will alienate people as well, since when TPV is in everyone who wants to play competitively will be FORCED to use TPV, since it gives them advantages in combat.

So it's a councious choice by the developers, they wish to cater for the people who understand the benefits of FPV. The people who refuse to try it can stick to other games.

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

Are you just trolling or did you not even read the post that I made just before you?! I gave very clear reasons as to why adding TPV is out of the question.

You say not adding TPV will alienate people. Well, adding TPV will alienate people as well, since when TPV is in everyone who wants to play competitively will be FORCED to use TPV, since it gives them advantages in combat.

So it's a councious choice by the developers, they wish to cater for the people who understand the benefits of FPV. The people who refuse to try it can stick to other games.

I so second that.

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

I indulge you to go and read the various topics discussing FPV and TPV on the MO official forums.

- I have 

How is it a terrible mistake to not add TPV? Care to explain in detail?

- I already explained in my previous post one aspect of how adding a TPV can enhance a players game play.

FPV a game design decision made by the devs, many of the core features of MO, like the combat system, are designed around the fact that the game will be FPV and FPV only. If they were to add TPV in this stage they would have to redesign quite a few of the games features, which will add months to the development time and also steer the game away from its original concept, which is a fully FPV experience.

- Thats perfectly fine, TBH I don't know why you went on a Rant here.

 How exactly is interaction with the environment more realistic in TPV?

-  Watching your character  doing animations of; pulling / pushing a wagon full of loot or harvested material,   holding the reigns of a mount,  pushing the door open as you walk through a castle doorway,   pouring tar on your enemies as they try to siege a castle, jumping from the edge of the moat onto the vines that have crept up the castle wall.   

In FPV most of these actions are just;  you moving and the wagon following, or you with your "face" against the object, the mount is just there,  a bucket and a hand are shown on the screen,  the player watches the ground and the camera jerks up towards the sky when you reach the castle wall.

I'd say it's quite the opposite. In FPV you see the world and interact with the world as if you are the character, you see the world through the eyes of your character. In TPV you are the puppet master who's hovering above the character and manipulating it.

- Thats your Opinion and I can respect that.  BTW you are actually looking at the world through a wide angle camera, and not a players eyes.

 How can you state that melee combat will always look more fluid and professional in TPV? That's a completely subjective opinion and there is no factual proof to back that claim. I'd say games like Mount&Blade and Dark Messiah have very fluid melee combat.

- Mount & Blade isn't a very good example, since 90% of the videos (Youtube) melee is done in TPV, and if you don't think watching a player; set, swing, follow through looks more professional and fluid, than half an arm and sword moving frantically across the screen I will respect your opinion.  

Furthermore, even if you believe that every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid, how on earth can you claim MO won't be?

- Please point to me where I said " Every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid " and related it back to MO. 

Again, claiming that "a game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewing perspectives" is a completely subjective opinion and should not be stated as fact.

- This is how you state a fact:

1) A game is much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives.

- This is how you state an opinion:

2) A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewing perspectives.

I did number 2 so please tell me why you are stating my opinion as a fact?

Furthermore, playing in TPV has many advantages over FPV, so basically adding TPV would mean that all competitive players would be forced to play in TPV all the time, since it will give them the edge in battle.

- That has nothing to do with POV, but how the game mechanics were designed. 

- the developers believe that for their game FPV will provide a more immersive gaming experience. (Note: they are not saying FPV is more immersive than TPV in all games, they are just saying that it's more immersive in the game that they have made.)

- TBH the only intelligent thing in your post is the last statement.

 Next time spend more time reading what you are replying to so I don't have go through and discredit every stupid remark you make.

Originally posted by thinktank001

Thats perfectly fine, TBH I don't know why you went on a Rant here.

- Where was I ranting? I was explaining why it's a bad idea to add TPV in this stage of development.

 Watching your character doing animations of; pulling / pushing a wagon full of loot or harvested material, holding the reigns of a mount, pushing the door open as you walk through a castle doorway, pouring tar on your enemies as they try to siege a castle, jumping from the edge of the moat onto the vines that have crept up the castle wall.

In FPV most of these actions are just; you moving and the wagon following, or you with your "face" against the object, the mount is just there, a bucket and a hand are shown on the screen, the player watches the ground and the camera jerks up towards the sky when you reach the castle wall.

- But everything you described is not realistic. You can't magically see yourself interacting with the environment in TPV in the real world and if realism is what you strive for then you shouldn't be able to do that in the game either.

If you are behind a battering ram for example and are pushing it forward, then you shouldn't be able to see what's going on in front of you. This is how it is in FPV and it's a hell of a lot more immersive than being able to magically see over the battering ram by zooming out into TPV.

Mount & Blade isn't a very good example, since 90% of the videos (Youtube) melee is done in TPV, and if you don't think watching a player; set, swing, follow through looks more professional and fluid, than half an arm and sword moving frantically across the screen I will respect your opinion.

- Personally I don't think it looks more fluid in TPV. In my eyes it's a lot more realistic to play M&B in FPV, it really gives you the feeling that you are actually in the middle of the battle and it takes a lot more skill to be able to do well when you can't see 360 degrees around your character.

Please point to me where I said " Every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid " and related it back to MO.

- You said "Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a TPV", which implies that you think FPV combat is not fluid. This topic is about MO and we are discussing MO, so everything relates back to MO. Stop trying to go back on your words.

This is how you state a fact:

1) A game is much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives.

This is how you state an opinion:

2) A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewing perspectives.

I did number 2 so please tell me why you are stating my opinion as a fact?

- So you agree that MO can be much more dynamic and a lot more fun with only FPV?

That has nothing to do with POV, but how the game mechanics were designed.

- It has a lot to do with PoV, since MO has been designed as a FPV game and TPV would give players an advantage due to having a better view of their surroundings. This means that all competitive players would use TPV, thus forcing those players who'd actually like to play in FPV to switch to TPV as well to stay competitive.

Next time spend more time reading what you are replying to so I don't have go through and discredit every stupid remark you make.

- I have read every argument there is against FPV in the past 10 months I've been following MO and have countered every single one of them. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make my remarks stupid. On the other hand, you claiming that the arguments people who disagree with you make are stupid makes you look rather childish.

Why do we not see people who play FPS games complaining about FPV? Easy, it's because there is nothing wrong with FPV. It's only the people who are not familiar and comfortable with FPV who constantly claim that it's a terrible design decision by the developers.

I'm not saying FPV is perfect in todays games, the lack of perephrial vision is an issue, but FPS gamers have learned to compensate for that by simply looking around with their mouse and keeping a closer eye on their surroundings.

It comes down to personal preference, but claiming that FPV is a bad design choice is simply arrogant, especially if you haven't actually tried the game yet.

Originally posted by L1ghtsabeR

Originally posted by thinktank001

 

 

- Where was I ranting? I was explaining why it's a bad idea to add TPV in this stage of development.

 

+ Its a rant because you went off-topic on the Dev's design decision, and did not discuss solely on FPV vs. TPV.   Granted it was still nice information on their decision. 

 

 

- But everything you described is not realistic. You can't magically see yourself interacting with the environment in TPV in the real world and if realism is what you strive for then you shouldn't be able to do that in the game either.

 

+ TPV isn't about how you are viewing a character, but about the increase in self awareness with in the environment.   In FPV you are stuck with focusing only on these tasks, and have no idea what is around you, but that just isn't true irl.  If a person jumps off the ledge they don't watch ledge, but look ahead to where they are jumping.   If your pushing/pulling an object you don't watch the object 100% of the time, but you grasp it and look ahead.   When you open a door your automatically know where the handle is, and you are looking ahead to see what is inside.  

The mundane tasks that require 100% attention in FPV don't accurately portray a person's awareness of their surroundings.

 

 

If you are behind a battering ram for example and are pushing it forward, then you shouldn't be able to see what's going on in front of you. This is how it is in FPV and it's a hell of a lot more immersive than being able to magically see over the battering ram by zooming out into TPV.

 

+ You are touting a TPV that is much more free than what I had envisioned.   Of course you would probably know that if you actually did read my previous posts.

 

 

- Personally I don't think it looks more fluid in TPV. In my eyes it's a lot more realistic to play M&B in FPV, it really gives you the feeling that you are actually in the middle of the battle and it takes a lot more skill to be able to do well when you can't see 360 degrees around your character.

 

+ Again you aren't reading my previous posts, and throwing your own ideas on what you believe about TPV .  I never ever said the TPV should have unlimited freedom (360 degree rotation, fairly far zoom out function), and I can surely respect your opinion on M&B + FPV.

 

 

- You said "Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a TPV", which implies that you think FPV combat is not fluid. This topic is about MO and we are discussing MO, so everything relates back to MO. Stop trying to go back on your words.

 

+ Stop quoting my words and adding your own delusional shit to it, and I'll ask you to prove where I had stated, " that every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid, how on earth can you claim MO won't be? "  

 

 

 

 

- So you agree that MO can be much more dynamic and a lot more fun with only FPV?

+ Where did I agree that MO can more dynamic and fun with only FPV, and why did you answer my question with your own question?

 

- It has a lot to do with PoV, since MO has been designed as a FPV game and TPV would give players an advantage due to having a better view of their surroundings. This means that all competitive players would use TPV, thus forcing those players who'd actually like to play in FPV to switch to TPV as well to stay competitive.

+ The point I was trying to get across to you (it failed obviously) is if a game is built with both TPV and FPV in mind, then no one will be at a disadvantage.

 

- I have read every argument there is against FPV in the past 10 months I've been following MO and have countered every single one of them. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make my remarks stupid. On the other hand, you claiming that the arguments people who disagree with you make are stupid makes you look rather childish.

+ Yeah failing to answer questions in my posts, and trying to tell another person their opinion is wrong and touting it with the remark that it was a game design choice really makes you look all grown up.  TBH it makes you look like a blind Fanboi.

 

Why do we not see people who play FPS games complaining about FPV? Easy, it's because there is nothing wrong with FPV.  

O wow that completely explains everything.  My facet doesn't leak because I have not complained to the landlord. 

---

Originally posted by thinktank001
 Next time spend more time reading what you are replying to so I don't have go through and discredit every stupid remark you make.

---

Obviously proving that this game doesn't meet your expectations, and jumping on users , leads me to ask: wtf are you trying to achieve here ?
Simple: don't want fpv, don't touch it even with a stick.

Originally posted by thinktank001

 

+ TPV isn't about how you are viewing a character, but about the increase in self awareness with in the environment. In FPV you are stuck with focusing only on these tasks, and have no idea what is around you, but that just isn't true irl. If a person jumps off the ledge they don't watch ledge, but look ahead to where they are jumping. If your pushing/pulling an object you don't watch the object 100% of the time, but you grasp it and look ahead. When you open a door your automatically know where the handle is, and you are looking ahead to see what is inside.

The mundane tasks that require 100% attention in FPV don't accurately portray a person's awareness of their surroundings.

- In TPV you have more self awareness than you would in real life, in FPV you have less. It's a matter of preference. Some people like the challenge FPV brings to the game, others don't.

I have no idea what those examples you provided have to do with PoV. I have no problem doing any of those things in FPV and I don't feel that it takes some super human level of attention. I'm sure most players who are experienced with FPS's and other FPV games would agree.

+ You are touting a TPV that is much more free than what I had envisioned. Of course you would probably know that if you actually did read my previous posts.

 

- Even with a limited locked TPV you will still have an unrealistically wide PoV which allows you to see around corners and over objects. FPV doesn't allow this, which is why I feel it provides a much more realistic and enthrilling gaming experience.

+ Again you aren't reading my previous posts, and throwing your own ideas on what you believe about TPV . I never ever said the TPV should have unlimited freedom (360 degree rotation, fairly far zoom out function), and I can surely respect your opinion on M&B + FPV.

 

- Again, even with a locked TPV you can still see behind your character which makes playing the game a lot easier.

 

+ Stop quoting my words and adding your own delusional shit to it, and I'll ask you to prove where I had stated, " that every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid, how on earth can you claim MO won't be? "

 

- So basically you are resorting to calling my posts "delusional shit" because you don't wish to stand by what you said. Whatever floats your boat.

I already answered your accusation in my last post.

 

+ Where did I agree that MO can more dynamic and fun with only FPV, and why did you answer my question with your own question?

 

- You said that you are not stating it as a fact that multiple PoV's make the game more dynamic and fun. You said that it's only your opinion. Opinions are usually based on past experiences and since you have not played MO you have no way of knowing if MO is or is not more fun and dynamic with multiple PoV's.

I answered your question with a question to confirm if I understood you correctly that you are willing to accept that since you have no experience with MO's FPV-only gameplay it might be more fun and dynamic than having multiple PoV's.

 

+ The point I was trying to get across to you (it failed obviously) is if a game is built with both TPV and FPV in mind, then no one will be at a disadvantage.

- But here's where you are dead wrong and if you had actually understood my previous posts then you would know why.

When both TPV and FPV are available, then competitive players will 90% of the time use TPV, since it gives them an advantage in combat. This basically means that the players who'd rather play in FPV are forced to use TPV.

The fact is that MO has been built with only FPV in mind, it's a FPV game. You might as well go and ask Infinity Ward to add TPV to CoD: Moder Warfare 2. The game just wouldn't work in TPV since it's never been designed with that in mind.

+ Yeah failing to answer questions in my posts, and trying to tell another person their opinion is wrong and touting it with the remark that it was a game design choice really makes you look all grown up. TBH it makes you look like a blind Fanboi.

 

- So basically I'm a fanboy and not grown up, because I disagree with you? I've answered every quote and line in your posts, at least the ones worth responding to. Yet all you do is claim that I don't read your posts (propably because you just can't find good counter arguments).

I'm not trying to tell you that your opinions are wrong, you have the right to like TPV. You were the one who came here and started spouting that making the game FPV is a "terrible mistake", you were the one who came here trying to force your preferences onto people who are anticipating a FPV MMORPG.

Ok, hope this amuses you for a bit. I'm off for the weekend, cya on monday.

I disagree. They need to keep it all in first-person, or none at all imo.

It's unique for an MMORPG, I like the idea of it and wish Darkfall always stayed in FP view.

For those of u who dont like first person view, try to play Oblivion a few hours in fpv and you will love it

It is so exiting going in a dark cave in fpv and wonder if that goblin, skeleton or even troll just starts mashing ur back, that is what can make an mmorpg very very epic. So we dont need 3rd person, we need 1ST PERSON VIEW.