Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Why comment when you can't read.  The 'cities' that are in the game were placed by the devs.  They were not built from the ground up.   

 

They are not, built by the devs.  There are about 100 of them sites where cities can be built.

When you caputure a site it consists of nothing but rubble and has numerous build slots in which to place buildings.  You have to build it yourself.  

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

Originally posted by rogert4221

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Why comment when you can't read.  The 'cities' that are in the game were placed by the devs.  They were not built from the ground up.   

 

They are not, built by the devs.  There are about 100 of them sites where cities can be built.

When you caputure a site it consists of nothing but rubble and has numerous build slots in which to place buildings.  You have to build it yourself.  

 

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

uhh huh? right...

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

Well I have read about guilds collecting the mats themselves and saying things like "we haven't got that building we should have enough mats tomorrow to build it".  I don't think the devs have just auto built structures.  Can someone in the beta confirm this?

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by rogert4221

<removed to shorten>

Lets go again.

Ah OU the great clan warefare game. o wait it wasn't about clan warefare just about people ganking each other o lol and them having their own house? ah alright just a bunch of people wanting to play Mr rogar's neighborhood with magic and killing.

First off, it's UO and if you believe what you said you never learned to play the game or just never played it. Go back to WoW.

The care-bears alway use the term ganking to describe any gameplay that doesn't have the happy-happy-joy-joy outcome that they expect. Again, go back to WoW. You deserve each other.

EDIT: Removed top post to shorten.

AH HA  you found me out. I didn't play UO at all I knew the OU hint would work. but this guy is just saying a bunch of crap.

and you are also.. lol me carebaer. and WoW.

You sir are nuts golden rosted with salt, but still pure nuts

*sigh* Another 12 year old who managed to squeak through the registration system...

Originally posted by rogert4221

1. The rogue system is by no means as involved as the one in UO, in this game it practically doesnt matter after u leave the beginner zones. While we certainly might see Blue-PKers preying on beginners, UO -style, a person who has played the game past these areas will not really care about algnment anymore as it will not affect him in any way.

The murder system doesn't matter?  Darkfall has a red penalty.     All there will be is 'blue-pks'.  Here is exactly how it will play out.  I come across you in the woods.  You are fighting a mob.   You have 3 choices.  1. you let the mob kill you and I loot you.   2.  You continue to fight the mob and I just run in front of your attack and you go grey and I kill you.  3.  I make you go grey, you kill me, then you get a murder count. You have no other options except run away.  There is no point in having a red/grey system when it is soooo easily exploited.

lol, If u run in front of my attack as im fighting a mob, ill procced to killing u, hey u allowed me to get the first hit in so ive got the upper hand. Will it make me go red? maybe, but im bound in my guild town so i dont give a damn, later that day ill run over to some faction enemies and kill some of them and go back to being blue. That is if Ill bother.

 

 2. Every MMO has macro/bot problems, the question is only what the devs will do to deal with it, and the answer is we have no idea yet. Fact remains that in THIS game macroers can be killed, and very little can be macroed without either starting with alot of regs in ur backpack or aquiering alot of resource materials while macroing, in other words macroers have backpacks full of stuff that other people will want.

And THAT gives darkfall a leg up in the anti-macro department as opposed to the majority of MMOs out there.

Just not true.  You can't gain skills/levels in WOW, LOTRO, AOC or Warhammer by macroing. 

Thats line is funny to me, ever head of wowglider ?

Ever seen city-chat in wow without gold sellers for that matter?

Oh YES!! u can totally level up to at least lvl 70 in wow without EVER playing ur character.

 

3. Speaking as a former hally-mage, Id have to disagree, the problem with UO was Magery was EVERYTHING, it was the only skill required to gain every spell in the game. Not so in Darkfall as a massive amount of spell schools will give us plenty of variation.

Again? are you in beta?  Darkfall has a massive amount of spell schools, but they are all nearly identical.  It's the same as weapon skills.   In UO, you could just pick magery and macro it up and get full benefit.  In Darkfall, the only difference is you have to pick a school and macro it up and get full benefit.  The 'variety' in the schools is cosmetic.

nono, the spell school are MUCH more varied then the weapon skills.

And the point here is that u wont see the same build, since there is a large number of spell schools.

 

4. Out there there is a game called Shadowbane, in that game players are to this very day constructing towns and sieging each others cities, the political landscape of such a sandbox constantly shifting as alliances are broken and new ones are formed, in my opinion this is the ultimate Endgame. Everyone wants to be the legendary conqueror, few will achieve it, but most will try.

Shadowbane is Free.   Shadowbane has buildable cities.    Darkfall will cost money (which is why I used the term p2p in my original post).  DF doesn't have player housing or cities.

Shadowbane has only been free since Ubisoft stopped the live team, it was p2p for years.

And Darkfall has buildable cities too.

 

Basically what Darkfall is doing is taking back some of the original features of UO and say, hey u didnt have to remove that, it is possible to build a game around it.

 

 

 

-Darkstar

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by rogert4221

1. The rogue system is by no means as involved as the one in UO, in this game it practically doesnt matter after u leave the beginner zones. While we certainly might see Blue-PKers preying on beginners, UO -style, a person who has played the game past these areas will not really care about algnment anymore as it will not affect him in any way.

The murder system doesn't matter?  Darkfall has a red penalty.     All there will be is 'blue-pks'.  Here is exactly how it will play out.  I come across you in the woods.  You are fighting a mob.   You have 3 choices.  1. you let the mob kill you and I loot you.   2.  You continue to fight the mob and I just run in front of your attack and you go grey and I kill you.  3.  I make you go grey, you kill me, then you get a murder count. You have no other options except run away.  There is no point in having a red/grey system when it is soooo easily exploited.

 

2. Every MMO has macro/bot problems, the question is only what the devs will do to deal with it, and the answer is we have no idea yet. Fact remains that in THIS game macroers can be killed, and very little can be macroed without either starting with alot of regs in ur backpack or aquiering alot of resource materials while macroing, in other words macroers have backpacks full of stuff that other people will want.

And THAT gives darkfall a leg up in the anti-macro department as opposed to the majority of MMOs out there.

Just not true.  You can't gain skills/levels in WOW, LOTRO, AOC or Warhammer by macroing.   There are no other skill based systems on the market except UO and soon darkfall.  Are you in the beta?  Do you not see EVERYONE shooting missles in the air.   Darkfall is exactly like UO... you could kill macroers and mages required regeants.   People have already written programs to harvest raw materials while they are afk.    

 

3. Speaking as a former hally-mage, Id have to disagree, the problem with UO was Magery was EVERYTHING, it was the only skill required to gain every spell in the game. Not so in Darkfall as a massive amount of spell schools will give us plenty of variation.

Again? are you in beta?  Darkfall has a massive amount of spell schools, but they are all nearly identical.  It's the same as weapon skills.   In UO, you could just pick magery and macro it up and get full benefit.  In Darkfall, the only difference is you have to pick a school and macro it up and get full benefit.  The 'variety' in the schools is cosmetic.

 

4. Out there there is a game called Shadowbane, in that game players are to this very day constructing towns and sieging each others cities, the political landscape of such a sandbox constantly shifting as alliances are broken and new ones are formed, in my opinion this is the ultimate Endgame. Everyone wants to be the legendary conqueror, few will achieve it, but most will try.

Shadowbane is Free.   Shadowbane has buildable cities.    Darkfall will cost money (which is why I used the term p2p in my original post).  DF doesn't have player housing or cities.

 

Basically what Darkfall is doing is taking back some of the original features of UO and say, hey u didnt have to remove that, it is possible to build a game around it.

 

 

 

Ug omiting my crazy babel which I do like doing more than this.

1. as soon as your out of the noob zone the alignment system dosn't matter there is no diffrence between being red or blue, and if you want to be blue just go kill some race foes or get a clanmate to leave clan so you can farm him up for some blueification.

2. new patch, you will be able to kill macroers I can't wait this will be pure joy, also for the MM macroers they have always been easy to kill.

3. yes I am in beta and every school of magic offers something diffrent...

4. Shadowbane was retarded.

so basicly darkfall was all like I'm awesome the trolls then were like AHHH IT BURNS QUICK LETS FLAME A DIFFRENT WAY BUT THEY STILLL SUCKED AT IT.

1. There is a big difference between being red or blue.    Bind points?  City access?  Freely attackable without penalty?  ring a bell?

2.  Like I said.. you could easily kill macroers in UO too.  But everyone macro'd almost every skill up to 100 before they even started playing.  Again.. the entire point of my post is that DF learned nothing from UO.  Players are still going to macro most skills up to 100.

3.  No.  Every school has a differently named main attack spell, but the main attack spell is exactly the same.  Each school has a few different minor spells, but the 'corp por' spell will be the same with just a different name.

4.  Someone else brought Shadowbane up as the 'proof' that mindless pvp was enough 'endgame'.  I was simply pointing out that it was a free game that is barely played.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by rogert4221

<removed to shorten>

Lets go again.

Ah OU the great clan warefare game. o wait it wasn't about clan warefare just about people ganking each other o lol and them having their own house? ah alright just a bunch of people wanting to play Mr rogar's neighborhood with magic and killing.

First off, it's UO and if you believe what you said you never learned to play the game or just never played it. Go back to WoW.

The care-bears alway use the term ganking to describe any gameplay that doesn't have the happy-happy-joy-joy outcome that they expect. Again, go back to WoW. You deserve each other.

EDIT: Removed top post to shorten.

AH HA  you found me out. I didn't play UO at all I knew the OU hint would work. but this guy is just saying a bunch of crap.

and you are also.. lol me carebaer. and WoW.

You sir are nuts golden rosted with salt, but still pure nuts

*sigh* Another 12 year old who managed to squeak through the registration system...

*sigh* another confused indiviual that thinks they know what they are talking about but yet just dosn't understand that simply saying one true thing means they can spout as much bullshit after it as they want to make them feel better.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

 

Well I have read about guilds collecting the mats themselves and saying things like "we haven't got that building we should have enough mats tomorrow to build it".  I don't think the devs have just auto built structures.  Can someone in the beta confirm this?

Never heard of it happening.

Originally posted by rogert4221

While the developers claim to want to make 'old school' UO.  They have failed to learn any of the lessons of UO, and in some cases have gone backwards.  The below list are ALL gamebreaking flaws with Darkfall, and are all things that UO 'fixed' very early on.  There is no reason why the developers of Darkfall should be 'reinventing' the wheel.  They will end up spending the next year implementing 'fixes' to things they should have fixed in their initial design.  They should have learned from the mistakes of UO, rather than repeat them.

1.  The rogue system -  I've staed this before..  the BEST murderers in the game will never go red, they will be the ones who trick their targets into going grey to get a free kill.  This is exactly what happened in UO.   A player will step in front of an attack, and then his guild will gank the 'target'.  The entire murder system will turn into being good at 'semi-exploiting' it.  Why have an artificial system (going grey) when the main use of that system will end up being people abusing it?   Just get rid of 'rogue status' and instead give the attacker a murder count if he kills the player.   The entire 'going grey' thing never actually had a good purpose in UO.. the only thing it did was be abused by semi-exploiters.   Darkfall is already backtracking on it with guard towers and the new 10 second rule.  My guess is they will go through the exact same learning process that UO did, which is stupid.. they should have learned from UO BEFORE they implemented this system.

***********The rogue system was recently changed in order to allow 10 seconds of rogue to dissapear, if you attack again before that 10 seconds is up it goes up to 2 minutes.  Leaves less time for griefing to occur, doesnt eliminate it but its a bandaid fix before they can revamp.***********

2.  Macroing -  Having a skill system is great, but having a skill system with easy macroing is worse than having a leveling system.  Which is better 'gameplay' to you..  Being forced to go into the woods and kill 1000 boars to grind up a level?  Or running a macro while you are watching TV?    Yes, you have a choice.  You don't have to macro... but it is so rampant in the beta, and so openly talked about.. that if you do NOT macro, you will never catch up.   Gathering raw materials?  Forget about it.  The amount of materials a macroer can gather will dwarf what you can do by hand.    Gain skill or gather armor by fighting mobs?  Forget it, that person who macro'd their skill to max will be plowing down mobs way faster than you.   All of the benefits of a 'skill based' system are thrown out the window when macroers race past you.   In UO, I would say about 75% of skills were macro'd.  You didn't see players running around fighting mobs or each other with 37 in a skill.  Instead, they simply macro'd the skill up to 100 and THEN started playing.

********You show me a player macroeing his attack skills and I will show you a player whom will get owned several times over by people with half their attack skill owning them cause they know how to use their character, once everyone gets off their naked starter weapon there is very little variance between the damage/armor (depending on what type)*********

3.  Weapons/Armor -   Even if you assume that nobody will macro.. the skill system in Darkfall is very 'basic'.  There was about a 6 month period in UO's history where 90% of characters were mages who wore plate armor and carried a halbard.  There was absolutely no character diversity.   Darkfall is setting itself up to be exactly that.  There is no real penalty for having plate armor, and their are no negatives to having certain weapons.  Everyone will use a polearm (range), and everyone will wear plate armor.   While the greatest part of a skill system is supposed to be player diversity... the weapon/armor system in Darkfall will throw that completely out the window.  Everyone will have the same skills.

*****well looks like they're following UO now doesnt it ;-)  there will be changes to the game, its ever evolving happens with all MMO's.  *********

4.  Endgame Content -   I called this in warhammer right before launch.   Killing the same players repeatedly gets old very fast in a p2p game.   Even if you discount macroing skills.. players are going to max out their skills very fast.. then what?  Stand around the same area of the woods and fight the same players and reloot the same armor they looted off you 30 mins earlier.   UO had player housing... Darkfall doesn't.   There is nothing currently in the game that gives any longevity to gameplay.  Will player cities be that?  will they be implemented fast enough?  Going by what I've seen in beta, player cities are probably a long way off, and again, because of macro's, they will either be absurdly easy for macroers, or near impossible for normal players.  I know this is a semi- indictment against ' open world'.... but really there does need to be a 'goal' for players to play for other than 'kill the same players over and over'.  At the moment, Darkfall doesn't have those type of things that UO had.

**********ITS BETA!!!  there will be thousands more players and much more land to fight over since more players will be making places for you to crash down.  UO has been going for 11 years.  Darkfall has been developing for almost 8 (Off and on).  Keep in mind even though they have some things to workon it will come in tme.**************

UO made a lot of mistakes... but they also did a lot of things right over the years.  It seems to me that Darkfall has gone too far back into UO's history and didn't pay attention to some of the problems it fixed along the way. 

 Good points OP, you have some valid complaints. Jezvin, quit typing, it clearly shows you haven't played the game and have only watched beta videos. And yes, I beleive the guild cities were auto'd up. If the betaleak site had not got infected with porn, I'd double check because if I recall there was a post there about it. I have some odd assumption this game is nothing more than a huge FFA quake map with bots. For awhile it might be fun, but after the first month, I hope it will keep me entertained. Oh well, moneys done spent, well will be on the 25th. 

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

 

Well I have read about guilds collecting the mats themselves and saying things like "we haven't got that building we should have enough mats tomorrow to build it".  I don't think the devs have just auto built structures.  Can someone in the beta confirm this?

Never heard of it happening.

If it is possible that it happened, it would be STRICTLY because of the fact that it is beta and they werent able to create the proper GUI for it.  I have not heard of this occuring either but its possible.
 

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by rogert4221

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by rogert4221

1. The rogue system is by no means as involved as the one in UO, in this game it practically doesnt matter after u leave the beginner zones. While we certainly might see Blue-PKers preying on beginners, UO -style, a person who has played the game past these areas will not really care about algnment anymore as it will not affect him in any way.

The murder system doesn't matter?  Darkfall has a red penalty.     All there will be is 'blue-pks'.  Here is exactly how it will play out.  I come across you in the woods.  You are fighting a mob.   You have 3 choices.  1. you let the mob kill you and I loot you.   2.  You continue to fight the mob and I just run in front of your attack and you go grey and I kill you.  3.  I make you go grey, you kill me, then you get a murder count. You have no other options except run away.  There is no point in having a red/grey system when it is soooo easily exploited.

 

2. Every MMO has macro/bot problems, the question is only what the devs will do to deal with it, and the answer is we have no idea yet. Fact remains that in THIS game macroers can be killed, and very little can be macroed without either starting with alot of regs in ur backpack or aquiering alot of resource materials while macroing, in other words macroers have backpacks full of stuff that other people will want.

And THAT gives darkfall a leg up in the anti-macro department as opposed to the majority of MMOs out there.

Just not true.  You can't gain skills/levels in WOW, LOTRO, AOC or Warhammer by macroing.   There are no other skill based systems on the market except UO and soon darkfall.  Are you in the beta?  Do you not see EVERYONE shooting missles in the air.   Darkfall is exactly like UO... you could kill macroers and mages required regeants.   People have already written programs to harvest raw materials while they are afk.    

 

3. Speaking as a former hally-mage, Id have to disagree, the problem with UO was Magery was EVERYTHING, it was the only skill required to gain every spell in the game. Not so in Darkfall as a massive amount of spell schools will give us plenty of variation.

Again? are you in beta?  Darkfall has a massive amount of spell schools, but they are all nearly identical.  It's the same as weapon skills.   In UO, you could just pick magery and macro it up and get full benefit.  In Darkfall, the only difference is you have to pick a school and macro it up and get full benefit.  The 'variety' in the schools is cosmetic.

 

4. Out there there is a game called Shadowbane, in that game players are to this very day constructing towns and sieging each others cities, the political landscape of such a sandbox constantly shifting as alliances are broken and new ones are formed, in my opinion this is the ultimate Endgame. Everyone wants to be the legendary conqueror, few will achieve it, but most will try.

Shadowbane is Free.   Shadowbane has buildable cities.    Darkfall will cost money (which is why I used the term p2p in my original post).  DF doesn't have player housing or cities.

 

Basically what Darkfall is doing is taking back some of the original features of UO and say, hey u didnt have to remove that, it is possible to build a game around it.

 

 

 

Ug omiting my crazy babel which I do like doing more than this.

1. as soon as your out of the noob zone the alignment system dosn't matter there is no diffrence between being red or blue, and if you want to be blue just go kill some race foes or get a clanmate to leave clan so you can farm him up for some blueification.

2. new patch, you will be able to kill macroers I can't wait this will be pure joy, also for the MM macroers they have always been easy to kill.

3. yes I am in beta and every school of magic offers something diffrent...

4. Shadowbane was retarded.

so basicly darkfall was all like I'm awesome the trolls then were like AHHH IT BURNS QUICK LETS FLAME A DIFFRENT WAY BUT THEY STILLL SUCKED AT IT.

 

1. There is a big difference between being red or blue.    Bind points?  City access?  Freely attackable without penalty?  ring a bell?

2.  Like I said.. you could easily kill macroers in UO too.  But everyone macro'd almost every skill up to 100 before they even started playing.  Again.. the entire point of my post is that DF learned nothing from UO.  Players are still going to macro most skills up to 100.

3.  No.  Every school has a differently named main attack spell, but the main attack spell is exactly the same.  Each school has a few different minor spells, but the 'corp por' spell will be the same with just a different name.

4.  Someone else brought Shadowbane up as the 'proof' that mindless pvp was enough 'endgame'.  I was simply pointing out that it was a free game that is barely played.

1. there is NO BIG difference between being red or blue, No noob bind points, NO noob cities, freely attackable just like anyone else. not to mention it is TRIVIAL TO TURN BACK BLUE FROM RED!

2. crafts harvests and MM are the only things that will be macroed everything else would be risky at best due to reagents and ease of killing you.

3. I am sorry I do not intend to level my magic for the "main attack spell" and Plan to use the utility much to my advantange. and Yes I have looked at many of the spells and talked to people (who yes most likly macroed) that have unlocked some of them.

4. its not mindless.

1.  It is very easy to turn Blue again once red, just takes a bit of time and traveling.

2.  Which makes this game great

3.  Magic will have enough benefits to want you to grind it out to get the buffs and debuffs that comes with the magic.

4.  Its epic.

From a beta player most of the text IN RED is altered to make it seem ALOT worse than it is, there are player built cities.  Just some LARGE cities have been prebuilt in order for some clans to take over so that it gives another thing to continuously fight for.  BUT AGAIN THERE ARE PLAYER BUILT CITIES.

 

Originally posted by KOrnfan4evr

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by rogert4221 

Sorry if I confused you.   Yes, you are right.  The way you described it is the way it is supposed to work on the live server.

But the ones that are currently built in the beta were not 'built' by players.   The players didn't gather raw materials and build up the city.  The devs just popped in and 'auto finished' the city for a few guilds.

I'm talking about what is currently in the game now, not what the devs have planned. 

 

Well I have read about guilds collecting the mats themselves and saying things like "we haven't got that building we should have enough mats tomorrow to build it".  I don't think the devs have just auto built structures.  Can someone in the beta confirm this?

Never heard of it happening.

If it is possible that it happened, it would be STRICTLY because of the fact that it is beta and they werent able to create the proper GUI for it.  I have not heard of this occuring either but its possible.
 

But is it possible?
I also heard (can't find link - IIRC the N00B Review mentioned this too?) that the materials needed to build cities were not yet 'turned on' (debug mode...yada yada) and that the only cities that have been 'built' were built because the devs gave certain guilds the materials to do so.
That is to say... the players would NOT have been able to build the cities without direct Dev help.

Yes, the Clanstones might be in game - but so what?
It may as well be a "<TO DO>" marker?

If that is true then while building cities might be technically possible - you will NOT be able to do it in game.
No cities = no sieges and a big part of the reason for playing isn't there.
Also, if only a couple of cities exist then you can bet the siege warfare and city flip portion of the game has not been properly tested.

This all sounds remarkably like Age of Conan (AoC) at release:
Funcom>"Sieging works!"
Players>"No it doesn't!  We can't do it!?"
Funcom>"You need a Tier 3 City."
Players>"But they are not enabled yet!!!"
Funcom>"Yes they are."
Players>"No they are not.  We cannot build one!?"
Funcom>"Ah... that's because Tier 3 CRAFTING is NOT ENABLED yet.  But City Sieges and Tier 3 Cities ARE IN GAME!"

Which just goes to prove players don't learn.

Can anyone - anywhere - confirm a player city has been built WITHOUT GM/Dev assistance?

Originally posted by rogert4221

1. The rogue system is by no means as involved as the one in UO, in this game it practically doesnt matter after u leave the beginner zones. While we certainly might see Blue-PKers preying on beginners, UO -style, a person who has played the game past these areas will not really care about algnment anymore as it will not affect him in any way.

The murder system doesn't matter?  Darkfall has a red penalty.     All there will be is 'blue-pks'.  Here is exactly how it will play out.  I come across you in the woods.  You are fighting a mob.   You have 3 choices.  1. you let the mob kill you and I loot you.   2.  You continue to fight the mob and I just run in front of your attack and you go grey and I kill you.  3.  I make you go grey, you kill me, then you get a murder count. You have no other options except run away.  There is no point in having a red/grey system when it is soooo easily exploited.

 This is precisely what will happen at times.

It will not be game breaking though, meerly annoying for new players. But if you have bought a pvp gankfest game, this is what you have to expect. To expect WoW-style carebear levelling is naieve. For some players this will be a great wake-up call, give them a taste of the game to come. While im certain a lot will QQ and quit, as many will get the taste for it and stay and those are the kind of players this game is geared towards.

Don't confuse magic quantity with quality.  There my be a lot of different skills for magic but most do the exact same thing (copy/paste skills).  It lessens your ability to create a unique char.

1.) I agree the rogue system is stupid as is.  However no matter how you design it, it'll be exploitable in one way or another.

2.) Name a MMO where players don't macro / afk something.  Every game has this "problem" but at least in DF players are able to kill those players if they wish. 

3.) Weapons / Armor, I agree that this should be fixed.  With that said, every MMO has one template that is better than the rest at launch, and with most there always is one. Given some time I bet AV will balance things out more.

4.) I haven't played any mmo that has much for end-game content.  Everything gets old after you've done it hundreds of times.  However, I'd rather kill the same players over and over than the same scripted AI.  Sure other MMOs have both, but they lack any meaning in the PvP aspect so I don't count that. 

Don't get me wrong I'm unhappy with DF as it is, and feel let down by it.  However, it's still more fun than any others out there atm.

Originally posted by rogert4221

Just get rid of 'rogue status' and instead give the attacker a murder count if he kills the player.   

The current game I'm playing, Requiem, does just that. You kill someone on the PK server and you are flagged as a murderer. The act is also very deliberate -- you can't just click on another player and start killing. You must use a key-mouse comination. This avoids accidental PK scenarios. At that point several things happen:

1) You no longer can group or belong to a guild until you "work off" your murderer status. You do this by questing and dying at the hands of other players.

2) As soon as you are flagged as a murderer, others can attack you without PK penalties. In other words, you become fair game.

3) You are de-buffed in a few other aspects of the game until your murderer status is removed.

I think its a great system and I rarely see people going around on a killing spree. This is probably due to the fact that you can't participate in the areas that have good loot, because they are group areas and you are barred from grouping. If you choose to be a murderer most of the time, that's OK but your character's life will be very lonely.

I'm not playing the beta of DF yet, but I suspect the devs tried to implement more of a PK system as opposed to a PvP system (someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm just speculating). PvP and PK are NOT the same. PvP is by design consentual in the sense that you choose to be in a PvP or non-PvP area on a server. On a purely PK server, you are killable whether you like it or not. The only way to avoid it is to log off.

So, to make a long post short , I agree that the rogue system could be replaced with a murderer penalty and everyone would be much happier (maybe) 

Despite what people tell you, Darkfall *IS* a carebear game.

Why? Because the combat mechanics allows people to run. The game encourages people to chugg potions, eat foods and RUN from danger. Little if any mezzing in the game. I contend that games with mezzes are less carebear than Darkfall. Only the bad players will die and they are probably wearing crap too. I'll bet people will carry around hundreds of junk in their packs just to piss their killers off....drag drop...drag drop....

Originally posted by PeZzy

Despite what people tell you, Darkfall *IS* a carebear game.

Why? Because the combat mechanics allows people to run. The game encourages people to chugg potions, eat foods and RUN from danger. Little if any mezzing in the game. I contend that games with mezzes are less carebear than Darkfall. Only the bad players will die and they are probably wearing crap too. I'll bet people will carry around hundreds of junk in their packs just to piss their killers off....drag drop...drag drop....

Yep, JUST like in UO. 68 bags of various colors spring to mind hehe.

 Also potion tiemr is 45 seconds so thats been fixed pretty well, the running makes for dynamic combat, and is a necesity considering the rules of the game.

If u call that Carebear, as opposed to, "im dead, ding im alive, back to fighting" which is the norm then I shudder to think about what game u would want to play.

Originally Darkfall was supposed to have Perma-death, maybe that would be more ro ur liking.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by PeZzy

Despite what people tell you, Darkfall *IS* a carebear game.

Why? Because the combat mechanics allows people to run. The game encourages people to chugg potions, eat foods and RUN from danger. Little if any mezzing in the game. I contend that games with mezzes are less carebear than Darkfall. Only the bad players will die and they are probably wearing crap too. I'll bet people will carry around hundreds of junk in their packs just to piss their killers off....drag drop...drag drop....

Sorry but this must be one most stupid replys on whats carebear and hardcore is ever, you obvious have no clue what carebear means.

Go play wow arena or CS, Darkfall is is absolutly not for you nub.