Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

Really? Thats what u jump at? Semantics ?

U dont see that the ultimate responsebility lies in the developers?

And since they had to rearrange such a massive feature of the game with the renesciance expansion it shows that the original feature was a failure.

Playerbase policing itself is only a factor to the degree the game designers allow.

As for the rest of ur post, I get that u dont agree that a pvp-centric MMO with ffa and full loot is a good idea, well Darkfall is here to try to prove u wrong.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by todeswulf

Originally posted by BaconJA89

 

  All I am saying is that, from a historical perspectives, it seems as though old school gamers may finally have a medium through which to challenge WoW, which has dominated the genre for so many years. 

-John

 

Yes allof what fifty So called Old School gamers are rising up to challenge Twelve Million WoW players that consists of the biggest most diverse demopgraphic in any gaming genre....ever.

 

Put the crack pipe down Grandpa. 

 

I would really like to see a chart of this subscription demographics between active players/inactives players and gold sellers. When AOL gave out their 20 bucks deal for unlimited internet access  the entire USA join not that they all could log in at the same time nor they could stay long enough per call as it is said unlimited access per month and not per call.  I played wow for awhile most of the time I solo and when I group I wished I hadn't been in it and seeing how no one in group new what they were doing as well as all thought they were hot and uber with their elite armor yet no had no idea of group interaction. Sometimes I felt like a hired assasin go kill this one kill this many... The quest felt like random things to do. Oh an the continous and repeticious asking to pvp from people that new that they were gonna win. I really don't want to play a copy of EQ but I would like to find a game that the play style is a like where people burn time to learn their play style not go kill or do x quest and be 80 in 2 weeks.

Favorite memories is to go on PoKnowledge and see full of poeple selling kei,virtue or doing a massive buff spell.. now a days PoK is just another empty zone as eq has way too many xpansions..

I have seen many post like this wow has millions of subscribers .. my question is how many are actually active and not goldspammers as every time I check my email is wow gold spammers I get.

The problem is this.. Most "old school" gamers I know are now adults. They don't have time to spend all day in an imaginary world filled with all their friends. They do enjoy it, as do I, so they still need their fix. Said gamers will not get their fix in games that take the "old school" approach. Not saying that this isn't needed in the genre, but quite frankly it's always going to be a niche game with such time commitments in place.

I myself desire a game that offers more then WoW. I miss the old days in FFXI when it took actual time to get where I was going. The limitations of travel, amongst other things, offered up more social elements to gameplay. The instant gratification is what feels so different about games like WoW. It does detract from the community as well. Players no longer need to rely on each other for so many things. This in itself is why the game has been so successful (the blizzard brand name certainly helps too). This, in essence "ruins" the genre in the eyes of the player nostalgic for something more "pure". Unfortunately, it is needed... just because I'm grown up and don't have the time to commit to these games like I did then doesn't mean I don't want to play too :P

That being said, I know plenty of "old school" gamers who play WoW. Old EQ/FFXI/DAoC vets who miss their old games, but have jobs/wives/kids/bills that require attention. They don't always enjoy it, I often hear players talking about the "old days" in EQ fondly on vent, but they are still here playing WoW. They do it because they found other people that feel the way do and like to play the way they play. They play together and enjoy each others company. And they don't have to commit every minute of their free time to do so.

New school, old school, it's all relative to your point of view. The revolution you are waiting for may not be the one you expect. Just don't be disappointed if things dont turn out like you thought they would :)

PvP servers in WoW are for people bored with scripted battles and who want to one hit kill lowbies, I guess.

As was said already by other people in here, there's no risk involved. Unless you count 30 seconds running back to your corpse as a risk.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

 

Really? Thats what u jump at? Semantics ?

Semantics? You're reaching there.

U dont see that the ultimate responsebility lies in the developers?

Pardon me, but I thought we were discussing a "sandbox" environment. My bad...

And since they had to rearrange such a massive feature of the game with the renesciance expansion it shows that the original feature was a failure.

Yes. Original developers have stated so. Thus, the "Failed Social Experiment".

 

Playerbase policing itself is only a factor to the degree the game designers allow.

Well, what is more "sandbox" than setting up the basics (factions, alliances, races) and letting the populace loose? Sounds like full player policing to me. As far as I know, that model hasn't worked yet.

Good Lord, you guys are screaming bloody murder because of a few Guard Towers, it would be total chaos if the developers tried to do anything else to "police" the "sandbox".

 

 

As for the rest of ur post, I get that u dont agree that a pvp-centric MMO with ffa and full loot is a good idea, well Darkfall is here to try to prove u wrong.

Nope, you gathered the wrong thing, sorry. Apparently you missed what I was driving at.

I truly believe that that type of game can exist.

Unfortuantely, in it's current state, Darkfall is not that game.

 

-Darkstar

 Mine,,,

You failed to address the question I put forth as to why the PvP populace of UO was/are still unhappy since the UO:R split.

There was/is only one difference.

Take a guess. You seem intelligent enough.

Originally posted by jacobuj

The problem is this.. Most "old school" gamers I know are now adults. They don't have time to spend all day in an imaginary world filled with all their friends. They do enjoy it, as do I, so they still need their fix. Said gamers will not get their fix in games that take the "old school" approach. Not saying that this isn't needed in the genre, but quite frankly it's always going to be a niche game with such time commitments in place.

I myself desire a game that offers more then WoW. I miss the old days in FFXI when it took actual time to get where I was going. The limitations of travel, amongst other things, offered up more social elements to gameplay. The instant gratification is what feels so different about games like WoW. It does detract from the community as well. Players no longer need to rely on each other for so many things. This in itself is why the game has been so successful (the blizzard brand name certainly helps too). This, in essence "ruins" the genre in the eyes of the player nostalgic for something more "pure". Unfortunately, it is needed... just because I'm grown up and don't have the time to commit to these games like I did then doesn't mean I don't want to play too :P

That being said, I know plenty of "old school" gamers who play WoW. Old EQ/FFXI/DAoC vets who miss their old games, but have jobs/wives/kids/bills that require attention. They don't always enjoy it, I often hear players talking about the "old days" in EQ fondly on vent, but they are still here playing WoW. They do it because they found other people that feel the way do and like to play the way they play. They play together and enjoy each others company. And they don't have to commit every minute of their free time to do so.

New school, old school, it's all relative to your point of view. The revolution you are waiting for may not be the one you expect. Just don't be disappointed if things dont turn out like you thought they would :)

So very true.

I love seeing posts where they talk about how "old-school" Darkfall is and how great it will be to play an "old-school" game again. The thing is, the community isn't old-school anymore...they are just old. (I am referring to me here too). I started playing MMO's in my early 20s. Now I am in my early 30s. Like many who cut their teeth on UO and EQ, we have moved on from 10-14 hour marathon gaming sessions to shorter play periods while having spouse-agro, kid-agro, pet-agro and any of the other 1 million things that might keep us from playing.

In other words, many who are "old-school" and would love a game like Darkfall simply will not have the time for it anymore. This is why MMO's have gotten easier. Its not because they have dumbed them down, or anything like that, it is because their market has changed. If EQ, as it was in the early 2000s, launched today, it would be a miserbale failure. Sure, there are people out there who want an old school, harder game, but the big question is this: Is it enough of a population to sustain a MMO for the long-term financially?

This is the big question for Darkfall. Will their be enough subs to keep the game going? And I do not mean at launch, or in 3 months but in the yeara down the road? Perosnally, I am afraid that there will not be. I think the gaming population has changed. HAD Darkfall launched in 2003 or so, then sure.  But today, games are easier sure, but in reality, difficulty in an MMO is all about time committment. Will people have enough time to committ to Darkfall? Will it be enjoyable? How will people react to getting ganked and related behaviors?

And the BIGGEST issue of all is this: If there are not enough subs around 6-12 months down the road, and AV needs money, then what happens? They either will close the game or....guess what......make the game easier so it will appeal to more subscribers. However, this in turn will alienate the hardcore fans.

And ultimately this is why I am waiting until the US release of Darkfall (and by then, we will know how good the game really is). I firmly believe Darkfall will have a major identity crisis in the 6-12 month period after release. There will not be enough CONTINUAL subscribers (who pay month to month) and AV will need to do something to make the game appeal to more people and to draw in more players and revenue. So they will either change a lot of the hardcore PVP rules or make a PVE server or something. This, of course, will cause massive drama and a lot of issues (and one of the reasons I have advocated for a PVE server from the beginning - it allows AV to maximize their potential subscription base without alienating their hardcore pvp'ers) but everyone assures me that there will be enough hardcore PVP'es around that there is no need to worry. However, I counter with sub numbers in hardcore games right now and servers with FFA rulesets currently (they tend to be low populated). Ultimately, we will see but if I was a small indie dev company like AV, I would do everything in my power to make the game appeal to as many people as possible to insure your financial security down the road. I guess only time will tell.

Originally posted by safwd

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

...................

Yeh from what I saw the UI is HORRIBLE and the PVP looked really crap.  Badly animated, it was slow and boring and had poor effects and half the time they were running away from eachother.


Sure people don't like the cookie cutterness of WoW but I bet you after launch people will soon realise what are the best things to fight with and just use them over and over and then that game will be cookie cutter too. One guy always said fights come down to just how many pots or whatever you have....... sounds liek the boring fights of Jedi with how many Holocrons they have.

Darkfall is not the sandbox game we've been waiting for.

Please don't buy the game until it has released and the final word is on it.

I cant argue with most of what you said.
 

But you did say WoW is a non-linear world and i just have to LOL all over that one.
I dont think i ever heard the term Linear World in MMOs until WoW came out. WoW invented linear in MMOs. And also quest grinding for that matter.

Wow, uhm....no....just no.  People act like WoW was the first modern MMO (meaning MMO, in the form that they now predominantly exist).  WoW didn't invent "linear" gameplay, nor did it invent "quest grinding."  U.O. had plenty of quests (although it had much MORE than JUST quests) and EQ (the ORIGINAL, not EQ2) came LONG before WoW and definitely had MANY of the things WoW gets "blamed" for already in place, including a hugely addicted "raider" populace, LOADS of "quest grinding" (why do you think it was called EVER QUEST), and the same "gear grind" we see today as well. 

What WoW DID that seems to have pissed so many people OFF is to take all of those things, add a sense of whimsy, make it more light-hearted, take itself less SERIOUSLY, add hand rendered graphics to the CGI and make it more "cartoony" and not try to be so serious, attempting to imitate real life, and BLAMMO.....a lot of more "traditional" MMO players "hated it."  Oddly enough, it still managed to become the behemoth of today's MMOs and make the term "MMO" a common household word.

Pffft.  Puhleease.  It's popular to hate the biggest thing out there.  And regardless of how much people on the forums here love OR hate WoW, we are a TINY TINY TINY part of the gamer population of the world. 

The same can be said for Darkfall.  Some will love it, some will hate it, and at the end of the day all that matters is that YOU are playing a game that YOU, personally, LIKE.  The company that manages to cater to the "likes" of the most people.....wins the race.  Pure and simple.  And guess what?  People who post on MMORPG.com (or any other gaming forum, for that matter) are a MINORITY, not a majority of gamers.

Originally posted by Waterlily

I hope Darkfall does well and I really should wish all the games that try to bring some challenge into MMO good luck, especially PVP or former UO players.

I'm a pure PVE player though, EQ was never about PVP, so Darkfall will fall short for me. Maybe Tera Online will bring some good PVE back to mmo, I don't know.

Play it before you think you will not like it, you have to play it just for the PvE experience it is excelent. JUst watch the horizon for the PvPers.

Honestly I have focused on PvE and crafting in the Beta and have to say about 2 weks ago I started killing people. Hey I have lost 10 sets of armor I have 20 in the bank, lots of skills melee ranged and magic all progressing nicely. And this with half the features disabled.

The PvE is excellent you should try it, even sneaking towards the ork capital from human lands, was fun in itself just to see the ork starter areas. Just the mission to get there was real fun , chased by mounted orks , orks on foot. Killed Zombies/ Skeleton Warriors, Giant skeleton an a salamander group on the way. And also took on a Hill Giant pure joy.

Hehe and then as I thought I had made it an ork got me with his bloody pike. All in all 2,5 hours of pure fun I cannot remember when this last happened and the world is large enough to do what you want. So for all the nay sayers i cannot help but laugh.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments,

 

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

 

-Darkstar

Where's the risk on WoW pvp servers? Oh yeah there virtually is none

You have made the common mistake many people do, equallying pvp to risk when the two are actually different things. And even risk it's self is leveled.

While there is a huge real appetite for pvp there is not such a huge one for risk and higher the risk the less people that are interested

Highest possible risk in an MMO is probably perma death, except for the odd nut job no one would play a game with this

Then you have full loot, here there are more people interested, but they are still a small minority

Then you have time lost risk which is what WoW has and as it has proven it what majority want

It’s basically the whole Risk vs Reward debate that went on for years in UO and simple fact is any game that gets that balance wrong will not do very well at best, flop totally at worst

Respit said something very interesting

"The years go by, UO has tried every carrot-on-a-stick approach to get more people in Felucca, and guess what happened? Nothing has worked. There has to be something else. Wonder what it is?"

What’s so interesting it he is actually wrong, one thing they tried did work at getting tons of people to go to fel, the famous publish 16 just before AoS

They introduced reward with the champ spawns and it’s scrolls and they reduced risk by removing majority (but not all) of item drops on death in dungeons only. Ton’s of people started going to fel, first for the champ spawns but from that launching pad they started expanding outside the dungeons and soon fel was starting to fill up with people (many who had never stepped foot in fel before) so fast that house prices in fel actually started to be higher than ones in Tram, even the broken factions system started to see activitity again

Sadly then Tom Chilton decided to do AoS with it’s itememazation, full insurance and bank balance pvp and it all went to pot again

But one thing P16 did prove, if you ease people gently into risk and entice them with rewards to go even further soon they will take the plunge on their own into even a full loot system. Even WoW followed this system with their land layout from safe lands to contested, but unfortunately because they are an item based game they had to keep the highest achievable risk very low

Until we have a skill based, non item based, pvp MMO that learns the right lessons from P16 we will not have massively successful mmo of the genre and until we have one of those majorty of MMO’s will continue to follow the WoW template
 

To be honest I see Darkfall making less of a dent in WoW playerbase than AoC and WAR has made.

Originally posted by jacobuj

The problem is this.. Most "old school" gamers I know are now adults. They don't have time to spend all day in an imaginary world filled with all their friends.

 

Exactly. I am 'old school' having started with good ole pen and paper, then to text based offline, text based online, then 2D and finally the more recent 3D-ish to title everyone knows.

Darkfall isn't 'old school' aside from the sandbox factor which may or may not work out for the game. It's PvP primarily. Darkfall will not every change the genre, if anything it may help cement the new niche market of PvP centric games but the bulk of gamers today want instant gratification and low risk. That's not to say that everyone is 'care-bear' or any of the other ugly descriptions PvP fanbois brute about either by any means but rather that the mentality of the world as a whole (or hole if you prefer) is 'I WANT IT NOW. I WANT IT EASY.'

Sandbox games aren't so good for this. Nor is full loot when folks WILL roam around in gank squads...it's done in all the non-PVP games so how can a dedicated PVP game be different...to make 'top guild' and 'Highest PvP Kill count'. *shrug* Most folks can't/won't play that sort of game.

A true sandbox with PvE AND PvP (as an option) might change the genre..if it was done correctly. Eventually it will be but not in the foreseeable future..of course with the NOW mentality...that future is 12 months at most.

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments,

 

Really? then how do u explain that the biggest wow servers are the PVP ones not the PVE ones?

 

-Darkstar

Where's the risk on WoW pvp servers? Oh yeah there virtually is none

 

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Respit

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Maelkor

I have been playing MMO's since the time they were free MUD's on college terminals as text. I have 0 interest in darkfall and will never play it myself. Not because i believe the game to be a crappy game but that the game features themselves hold no interest to me. I dont think this game will revolutionise anything or change anything. At  most it will garner a few hundred k subs do moderately well and provide another niche for one segment of the MMO market to have fun in. Nothing wrong with a game if it accomplishes that.

 

 

I disagree, when ultima online failed at controlling its own playerbase and was forced to cop out with a fellucca/trammel solution the rest of the development community took this as a sign that Free for all pvp does not, and cannot work in MMOs.

Furthermore they assumed that people would not want it.

--snip--

I'm sorry, Ultima Online did not fail at controlling its playerbase.The playerbase failed to be able to control(police)  themselves like the developers have said time and again. Hence the "Social Experiment" moniker.

 

 

Really? Thats what u jump at? Semantics ?

Semantics? You're reaching there.

Eh, no im talking about ur ridiculous statement about the playerbase failing, as if they are the ones payd to improve the game.

U dont see that the ultimate responsebility lies in the developers?

Pardon me, but I thought we were discussing a "sandbox" environment. My bad...

A game is still a game, it functions by design, and designing a sandbox game is not easier then a liniear game. 

And since they had to rearrange such a massive feature of the game with the renesciance expansion it shows that the original feature was a failure.

Yes. Original developers have stated so. Thus, the "Failed Social Experiment".

So u DO agree it was the developers failure. Good.

 

Playerbase policing itself is only a factor to the degree the game designers allow.

Well, what is more "sandbox" than setting up the basics (factions, alliances, races) and letting the populace loose? Sounds like full player policing to me. As far as I know, that model hasn't worked yet.

Wrong, it worked fine in Shadowbane, that game failed for other reasons, but it proved that the playerbase policing itself CAN be done, if its designed correctly.

Good Lord, you guys are screaming bloody murder because of a few Guard Towers, it would be total chaos if the developers tried to do anything else to "police" the "sandbox".

who are u talking to now? I dont care about the guard towers. 

 

 

As for the rest of ur post, I get that u dont agree that a pvp-centric MMO with ffa and full loot is a good idea, well Darkfall is here to try to prove u wrong.

Nope, you gathered the wrong thing, sorry. Apparently you missed what I was driving at.

I truly believe that that type of game can exist.

Unfortuantely, in it's current state, Darkfall is not that game.

 

And as I said, Darkfall is here to prove u wrong, so time will tell.

 

 Mine,,,

You failed to address the question I put forth as to why the PvP populace of UO was/are still unhappy since the UO:R split.

There was/is only one difference.

Take a guess. You seem intelligent enough.

Yes, thats an interesting question.

But nothing to do with what we where discussing.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

And once again there is no contradiction in what i said as long as you realise and accept that risk does not equal pvp

And yes, majority do pick pvp servers, in a game with the lowest possible risk you can have in an MMO

"and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game."

And who are DFO's beta testers....the people who don't like pvp? People who don't like high risk?

No, because they would not be even applying to test such a game in the first place. DFO's beta testing is akin to preaching to the choir

And because this game will turn out to be what everyone with a IQ higher than 10 is predicting ( including yourself), a small niche pvp mmo with about 300k players at best, lot less if Av cannot improve a lot of things fast after release

Will those kind of commercial results break the endless WoW clones that mmo gamers have had to put up with over the last few years and give us major level less, sandbox pvp games , not bloody likely
 

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

 

 

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I did not say it was wrong, I just said that the majority of the testers decided to not even participate in the poll. How many people took the poll, and how many beta testers are there claimed to be? I preordered the game myself, as I had been advertising I would for some time now, I just get tired of reading all this fanboy drivel posted here from time to time. People thinking this game is going to have 300k subs or be the savior of mmos is just laughable. Again, how many testers did Tasos claim there was, and how many people participated in the poll?

Originally posted by Lashay

And once again there is no contradiction in what i said as long as you realise and accept that risk does not equal pvp

And yes, majority do pick pvp servers, in a game with the lowest possible risk you can have in an MMO

"and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game."

And who are DFO's beta testers....the people who don't like pvp? People who don't like high risk?

No, because they would not be even applying to test such a game in the first place. DFO's beta testing is akin to preaching to the choir

And because this game will turn out to be what everyone with a IQ higher than 10 is predicting ( including yourself), a small niche pvp mmo with about 300k players at best, lot less if Av cannot improve a lot of things fast after release

Will those kind of commercial results break the endless WoW clones that mmo gamers have had to put up with over the last few years and give us major level less, sandbox pvp games , not bloody likely
 

So ur claim is that all Beta testers are fanboys and selfproffesed "hardcore" pvpers and so does not reflect the rest of the MMO world, even thou u say, and ill quote:

"And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years"

So ur contention is that the DFO playerbase are somehow different then the rest of the MMO playerbase and that wanting pvp has nothing to do with wanting risk, failing to see how Risk enhances the pvp experience.

But I guess most ppl dont know that, and therefore wont even try it... or what ?

Well that is ur opinion, I happen to think u are wrong.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

 

 

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I did not say it was wrong, I just said that the majority of the testers decided to not even participate in the poll. How many people took the poll, and how many beta testers are there claimed to be? I preordered the game myself, as I had been advertising I would for some time now, I just get tired of reading all this fanboy drivel posted here from time to time. People thinking this game is going to have 300k subs or be the savior of mmos is just laughable. Again, how many testers did Tasos claim there was, and how many people participated in the poll?

A poll shows a percentage because it only has to apply to a group consisting of the average Beta player.

As long as the average beta player got represented in the poll the percentage should uphold no matter the numbers.

But u DO believe in the polls result u just dont believe in polls ?

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

 

 

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I did not say it was wrong, I just said that the majority of the testers decided to not even participate in the poll. How many people took the poll, and how many beta testers are there claimed to be? I preordered the game myself, as I had been advertising I would for some time now, I just get tired of reading all this fanboy drivel posted here from time to time. People thinking this game is going to have 300k subs or be the savior of mmos is just laughable. Again, how many testers did Tasos claim there was, and how many people participated in the poll?

 

A poll shows a percentage because it only has to apply to a group consisting of the average Beta player.

As long as the average beta player got represented in the poll the percentage should uphold no matter the numbers.

 

But u DO believe in the polls result u just dont believe in polls ?

 

-Darkstar

 

 

This is the third time I am asking you, how many people took part in the poll, and how many people were supposedly testing the game?

For every gamer who wants something fresh and challenging, there are 20 who are fine with having their hand held and being spoonfed the same thing over and over again. My first MMO was Everquest, which to this day has certain aspects that are better than WoW. For example, EQ had a really nice LFG system where players could tag themselves LFG. If you were looking for a certain level of a certain class, they were easy to find. You didn't have to watch the trade channel, or send personal tells to every healer online to find what you were looking for. If people were looking for a group, it was easy to say so, and they were easy to find. If you needed specific classes to fill out your group a simple "/who all 50-55 shaman LFG" would net you  several results to choose from. Back to my point.

I became rather fed up with WoW after 3 years. I was pissed off with the constant nerfs to my class, the severe dependancy on gear which pigeon-holed classes as well as blocked many players from certain content. So I quit. I played AoC and WAR hoping that at least the new instanced PvP zones would give me enough variety to whet my whistle. I don't know why I was suprised, but what I found was a very large majority of players trying to play those games as if it was WoW. When it wasn't enough like WoW, players complained until the company caved in ala PvP systems and item rewards.

Todays generation of MMO players to a very large extent (in my opinion) feel like they are owed something. That just for paying monthly subscription fees and logging on, the game companies are obligated to provide them with a steady stream of loot and new content. Players expect severe racial and class-based buffs and nerfs every few months, which completely change the game, and not always for the better. I've come to realize that there will never be a game that can offer as much as World of Warcraft and remain so mind-numbingly easy a monkey could do it. That's what the majority of people want, and its already available. I predict that once Darkfall is released and this new generation gives it a whirl, they will be sorely disappointed that it is not WoW and they will either quit and go back to WoW, or whine and complain until the developers puss out and change the game to make it more like WoW. Its all about money and politics and there just is no competition. I don't think there ever will be.

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

 

 

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I did not say it was wrong, I just said that the majority of the testers decided to not even participate in the poll. How many people took the poll, and how many beta testers are there claimed to be? I preordered the game myself, as I had been advertising I would for some time now, I just get tired of reading all this fanboy drivel posted here from time to time. People thinking this game is going to have 300k subs or be the savior of mmos is just laughable. Again, how many testers did Tasos claim there was, and how many people participated in the poll?

 

A poll shows a percentage because it only has to apply to a group consisting of the average Beta player.

As long as the average beta player got represented in the poll the percentage should uphold no matter the numbers.

 

But u DO believe in the polls result u just dont believe in polls ?

 

-Darkstar

 

 

This is the third time I am asking you, how many people took part in the poll, and how many people were supposedly testing the game?

And I just told u, unless u feel the poll did not represent the average Beta tester, its irrelevant.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Varking

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Lashay

Originally posted by Darkstar111

If by virtually none, u mean not really none but in fact the same risk as in most other pvp games, namely time.

Its all about time after all, time to restock or time to corpserun, while the wow model stretches that tiem down to an absolute minimum creating as u say VIRTUALLY no risk, there is still risk.

Anyone who has leveled on a pvp server and has been to stranglethorn vale knows this.

And disproves ur original point, which u sorta backed down on in this post.

U DO agree now that ppl want a pvp enviroment?

 

 

-Darkstar

 

Virtually none is virtually none, is exactly what it says on the tin

And where did i say people do not want a pvp enviorment? Never said that in 12 + years, seems you are still confusing risk with pvp and still not realising the two are totally independant of each other

What i have said and will always continue to say majority or even a large minority of people don't want a "high risk" game where they are tossed in the deep end from the get go with no option but to survive or quit. Because guess what they majority will do? Quit

And thats a lesson that was rammed down the MMO industrys neck over 10 years ago

Sadly some games took from that lesson the understanding that any risk beyond the minium is bad (EQ,WoW and other such games) while others learned nothing at all , aka DFO

 

In ur own words:

"The majority of MMORPG players have proven to enjoy more no-risk (or diminished risk) environments"

And no Risk not the same as PvP, PvE servers have PvP too, the great majority of PvP in wow after all happens in Bgs and Arenas, and YET the majority still choose the servers with the greater RISK.

 

I dont think anyone will try Darkfall without a sober frame of mind about the realities of the game, unlike UO back in the day. DFO is pretty upfront about the level of risk involved after all, and if it is true as u say that the majority will quit in a high risk enviroment then that should be reflected on the Beta tester population.

But they are all preordering the game.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

You fail to understand it was just a poll taken by a minimal amount of people. How many polls have you taken on this site on these Darkfall forums themselves made by random people and chosen an answer that wasn't the most correct for you? It is as if you tell an army recruiter you want to join the Army, but you never actually sign the papers. Answering a poll question has no bearing on what you actually do. On top of this, if the poll was so important, how come so few Beta Testers actually visit the forum and participate in the poll?

 

 

So u are saying the great majority of Beta testers are in fact NOT preordering the game, having no evidence to even remotly support this claim, u simply assert that the poll im reffering to is wrong.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I did not say it was wrong, I just said that the majority of the testers decided to not even participate in the poll. How many people took the poll, and how many beta testers are there claimed to be? I preordered the game myself, as I had been advertising I would for some time now, I just get tired of reading all this fanboy drivel posted here from time to time. People thinking this game is going to have 300k subs or be the savior of mmos is just laughable. Again, how many testers did Tasos claim there was, and how many people participated in the poll?

 

A poll shows a percentage because it only has to apply to a group consisting of the average Beta player.

As long as the average beta player got represented in the poll the percentage should uphold no matter the numbers.

 

But u DO believe in the polls result u just dont believe in polls ?

 

-Darkstar

 

 

This is the third time I am asking you, how many people took part in the poll, and how many people were supposedly testing the game?

 

And I just told u, unless u feel the poll did not represent the average Beta tester, its irrelevant.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

I felt it didn't. It seems like the average testers, as well as the majority of the testers, didn't even care enough to take two seconds out of their day to participate in the poll. I asked a question I was curious about that was totally relevant to the discussion, and I do believe you know the answer to it, but you chose to tip-toe around it to not answer.