Originally posted by imbant

Everypost in the DF forum on this site is flamebait...every single one.

I see you are new, welcome to hell.

Just saying that if you think they are fools and dont know what they are talking about, stooping to their level and fighting them isnt gonna change their mindset. With no finished product to show for, its just your word against theirs. 

Like someone above said, let them say what they want. When the game comes out and (i hope) is good, you can throw it in their faces. Most of the people trolling are the ones who have seen recent MMOs fall short of what they said they would deliver. So you cant expect them to believe that a game that has been in development for almost 9 years to suddenly come and break the mould.

Ill admit that i too am skeptical about the game but ill reserve my judgement to when the game is finally out and i have played it. And though it makes for some humorous reading, flaming the game or, flaming the people flaming it, isn't gonna change anything  

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It's hard to say if DF is or is not a sandbox game, since there is no generally accepted definition. Non-linear is actually quite vague.

If your idea is that it's a sandbox because leveling your character skills is non-linear I would disagree with that. You start with bow skill zero. You shoot bow over and over and over and over, and bow skill goes up.

You start with sword swing skill zero. You swing sword over and over and over and sword swing goes up.

 

That seems pretty linear.

My preference for a sandbox is features taht allow players to change the game world. The way your character increases in power, skills, levels, etc., seems more or less irrelevant to me.

Class based games tend to me more linear, that's true. You are level one, you can do content in zone A. Once you make it to level 10, you can do content in zone B, and so on. Of course the reason this is not a sandbox, IMO, is not because the content is linear, but because the content is static.

Save the princess. You do the quest, and the princess is not actually saved. She's waiting for the next player to save her. That would be the same if you had skills or levels.

 

Alright fair enough.

Let me begin with the sword skill example.

Lvling ur sword skill from lvl 1 to 100 is not by and of itself non-liniear, unless there are multiple ways of doing so. Lets assume that the sword skill will need progressively harder mobs or players to aquire skill gain, which it did in UO, and probably does here as well.

Where are those mobs located ?

In a progressive pattern following a linked series of zones? That would be world of warcraft.

Or randomly spread around the map.

That would be non-liniear as the path u would have to take would have to be ur own, unaided by quest descritiptions and a game developers intentions.

But lets not stop there, let me repost something I posted earlier in this thread, ignore the flamebaiting.

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)
Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.
AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.
Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?
U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.
U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.
Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.
And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

This is the most important argument for DF being a Sandbox.

Imagine if GankzRus teams up with dAgOoNiEsQuAd and a few other PK-griefer guilds and takes over all the towns across half the map. Then they declare themselves an alliance and starts to  raid and grief guild towns all over the map everyday, and starts to conquer the rest of the map.

Then people start to cry on the forum whining that large ganker guilds control the game and its ruining their gameplay.

Then YOU, yes YOU Ihmotepp the Goa'ul, gather ur clansmen and take out the original GankzRus AND dAgOoNiEsQuAd towns, level them to the ground and take em for ur own. Now ANYONE looking at the political map can see ur flag in the middle of all the Red skulls.

The resistance is born.

More and more guilds allign themselves to u, and under ur leadership u start to strike back with a giant unstoppable Zerg that rolls all the griefer towns to dust.

They no longer have their towns and resources and so remain a diminshed force.

That is player driven, REAL CHANGE right there.

True Sandbox, by ur own definition, u saved the princess, the princess remains saved.

(The princess is a metaphor)

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by sn0wblind00

Just out of curiousity, dark, how would you define 'sandbox'?

Everyone seems to have different expectations and I'm a bit confused.  Figured I'd ask you as you'll likely be the first one to reply.

Do you consider DF a sandbox because advancement is through a skill tree as opposed to overall levels?  It's been tested and skills in DF do not change until an interval is met.  For example, you can go from 26 to 40 in a skill and see no change until you hit 50.  That is not different than leveling in other games - i.e. interval progression.

Is DF a sandbox because of customizability of players, tradeskills, housing, etc?  There is no player housing in the game.  Guild stone's and buildings are pre-placed, and all you do is gather resources for them.  Tradeskills lack options compared to every mmo in the market currently.  There is no unique, alternate way of progressing to gain money or anything...in comparison to Vanguard's political system.  Everyone from each race ends up identical. 

You mention linear and non-linear very broadly.  From what I understand, you say that DF is a sandbox mmo because of 'freedom' of advancement (correct me if I'm wrong).  The only way of character advancement in DF is by either killing mobs over and over, or grinding skills on others.  Other games offer quests or alternate methods of obtaining advancement, to make the game less tedious and more enjoyable.  So DF is a sandbox mmo because it is more tedious for advancement?

And just so I can compare, what mmo's besides UO do you consider 'sandbox'?

 

Well lets take it step by step. 

Ill begin at the bottom.

Ultima Online is a Sandbox MMO, Eve is one I believe thou I only played that one for 2 days, and Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.

 

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.

Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)

Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

 

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.

AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.

Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

 

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?

U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

 

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.

U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.

Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

 

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.

And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

 

 

So to answer ur orginial question, my definition of Sandbox is the same one Ive posted in my earlier post, but most importantly this is the main reason i consider DARKFALL a Sandbox game.

I could argue the other points as well, but this is my MAIN point, the big cahuna, and lets be honest who the hell even reads this much into a post.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright thanks for the reply.  For the record I wasn't being facetious, as I did want to know. 

I don't use the term as I think it categorizes a game too much, so I am neither defending nor attacking DF being under that term. 

I also played shadowbane(on deception) so I understand what you are trying to explain.  Essentially you consider a game to be sandbox if it allows for open guild pvp and ownership of an area.

Originally posted by sn0wblind00 

Alright thanks for the reply.  For the record I wasn't being facetious, as I did want to know. 

I don't use the term as I think it categorizes a game too much, so I am neither defending nor attacking DF being under that term. 

I also played shadowbane(on deception) so I understand what you are trying to explain.  Essentially you consider a game to be sandbox if it allows for open guild pvp and ownership of an area.

Well not in the example of AoC, but I think u see my point.

I played Damnation till the server went down.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by denshing

I have a feeling that tons of sandbox virgins are gonna try this out and then scram to mmorpg.com and other sites giving reviews about how shitty the game is simply because it is not what they expected.

But who cares, there loss anyways. If your dumb enough to buy a game you know nothing about and then be dissapointed, than that really makes my day. I wont feel bad, so reading all those disapointed reviews will be like music to my ears.

 

Exactly...well as long as we have at least 1 full server ill be happy.  Game has ridiculous potential and is hands down the best sandbox and immersive experience on the market right now.

To the other guy...wasnt really saying all those things were the definition of what "sandbox" means.

The only problem with all of this is the game is not on the market at all right now so until it is this is all just conjecture maybe you are playing beta and know all of this to be fact right now but from what I've heard I can't lend any weight to anything you've said so as I usually tell the trolls we'll see.
 

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It's hard to say if DF is or is not a sandbox game, since there is no generally accepted definition. Non-linear is actually quite vague.

If your idea is that it's a sandbox because leveling your character skills is non-linear I would disagree with that. You start with bow skill zero. You shoot bow over and over and over and over, and bow skill goes up.

You start with sword swing skill zero. You swing sword over and over and over and sword swing goes up.

 

That seems pretty linear.

My preference for a sandbox is features taht allow players to change the game world. The way your character increases in power, skills, levels, etc., seems more or less irrelevant to me.

Class based games tend to me more linear, that's true. You are level one, you can do content in zone A. Once you make it to level 10, you can do content in zone B, and so on. Of course the reason this is not a sandbox, IMO, is not because the content is linear, but because the content is static.

Save the princess. You do the quest, and the princess is not actually saved. She's waiting for the next player to save her. That would be the same if you had skills or levels.

 

 

Alright fair enough.

 

Let me begin with the sword skill example.

Lvling ur sword skill from lvl 1 to 100 is not by and of itself non-liniear, unless there are multiple ways of doing so. Lets assume that the sword skill will need progressively harder mobs or players to aquire skill gain, which it did in UO, and probably does here as well.

Where are those mobs located ?

In a progressive pattern following a linked series of zones? That would be world of warcraft.

Or randomly spread around the map.

That would be non-liniear as the path u would have to take would have to be ur own, unaided by quest descritiptions and a game developers intentions.

 

But lets not stop there, let me repost something I posted earlier in this thread, ignore the flamebaiting.

 

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)
Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.
AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.
Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?
U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.
U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.
Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.
And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

This is the most important argument for DF being a Sandbox.

 

Imagine if GankzRus teams up with dAgOoNiEsQuAd and a few other PK-griefer guilds and takes over all the towns across half the map. Then they declare themselves an alliance and starts to  raid and grief guild towns all over the map everyday, and starts to conquer the rest of the map.

Then people start to cry on the forum whining that large ganker guilds control the game and its ruining their gameplay.

 

Then YOU, yes YOU Ihmotepp the Goa'ul, gather ur clansmen and take out the original GankzRus AND dAgOoNiEsQuAd towns, level them to the ground and take em for ur own. Now ANYONE looking at the political map can see ur flag in the middle of all the Red skulls.

The resistance is born.

More and more guilds allign themselves to u, and under ur leadership u start to strike back with a giant unstoppable Zerg that rolls all the griefer towns to dust.

They no longer have their towns and resources and so remain a diminshed force.

 

That is player driven, REAL CHANGE right there.

True Sandbox, by ur own definition, u saved the princess, the princess remains saved.

 

(The princess is a metaphor)

 

-Darkstar

One problem in discussions of sandbox vs themepark is that like most things, there are no pure examples. There are no pure sandbox games, nor pure thempark games. Both usually have elements of the other, so you're really discussing more a matter of degree than anything else.

I agree that the ability to take and hold territory would change the game world, the princess would be saved so to speak, and that is a definite sandbox element. I would point out however, that this element is not required for a game ot be a sandbox, and IMO you could design a sandbox game with ZERO PvP.

However, simply moving spawns around the map doesn't make the progression non linear. It just ads an exploration feature to the game.

If killing a,b,c mobs is the best way to raise my sword skill, randomly scattering a,b and c around the map doesn't make it any less linear IMO.

non linear would mean I can kill them in any order, which would mean there would be no reason to look for anything, because I could just kill whatever I came across. THAT would be non linear. If I can kill A, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill B, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill C, that is linear, no matter that you make me wonder around the map like an idiot looking for each one because they spawn randomly.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It's hard to say if DF is or is not a sandbox game, since there is no generally accepted definition. Non-linear is actually quite vague.

If your idea is that it's a sandbox because leveling your character skills is non-linear I would disagree with that. You start with bow skill zero. You shoot bow over and over and over and over, and bow skill goes up.

You start with sword swing skill zero. You swing sword over and over and over and sword swing goes up.

 

That seems pretty linear.

My preference for a sandbox is features taht allow players to change the game world. The way your character increases in power, skills, levels, etc., seems more or less irrelevant to me.

Class based games tend to me more linear, that's true. You are level one, you can do content in zone A. Once you make it to level 10, you can do content in zone B, and so on. Of course the reason this is not a sandbox, IMO, is not because the content is linear, but because the content is static.

Save the princess. You do the quest, and the princess is not actually saved. She's waiting for the next player to save her. That would be the same if you had skills or levels.

 

 

Alright fair enough.

 

Let me begin with the sword skill example.

Lvling ur sword skill from lvl 1 to 100 is not by and of itself non-liniear, unless there are multiple ways of doing so. Lets assume that the sword skill will need progressively harder mobs or players to aquire skill gain, which it did in UO, and probably does here as well.

Where are those mobs located ?

In a progressive pattern following a linked series of zones? That would be world of warcraft.

Or randomly spread around the map.

That would be non-liniear as the path u would have to take would have to be ur own, unaided by quest descritiptions and a game developers intentions.

 

But lets not stop there, let me repost something I posted earlier in this thread, ignore the flamebaiting.

 

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)
Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.
AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.
Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?
U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.
U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.
Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.
And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

This is the most important argument for DF being a Sandbox.

 

Imagine if GankzRus teams up with dAgOoNiEsQuAd and a few other PK-griefer guilds and takes over all the towns across half the map. Then they declare themselves an alliance and starts to  raid and grief guild towns all over the map everyday, and starts to conquer the rest of the map.

Then people start to cry on the forum whining that large ganker guilds control the game and its ruining their gameplay.

 

Then YOU, yes YOU Ihmotepp the Goa'ul, gather ur clansmen and take out the original GankzRus AND dAgOoNiEsQuAd towns, level them to the ground and take em for ur own. Now ANYONE looking at the political map can see ur flag in the middle of all the Red skulls.

The resistance is born.

More and more guilds allign themselves to u, and under ur leadership u start to strike back with a giant unstoppable Zerg that rolls all the griefer towns to dust.

They no longer have their towns and resources and so remain a diminshed force.

 

That is player driven, REAL CHANGE right there.

True Sandbox, by ur own definition, u saved the princess, the princess remains saved.

 

(The princess is a metaphor)

 

-Darkstar

 

One problem in discussions of sandbox vs themepark is that like most things, there are no pure examples. There are no pure sandbox games, nor pure thempark games. Both usually have elements of the other, so you're really discussing more a matter of degree than anything else.

I agree that the ability to take and hold territory would change the game world, the princess would be saved so to speak, and that is a definite sandbox element. I would point out however, that this element is not required for a game ot be a sandbox, and IMO you could design a sandbox game with ZERO PvP.

However, simply moving spawns around the map doesn't make the progression non linear. It just ads an exploration feature to the game.

If killing a,b,c mobs is the best way to raise my sword skill, randomly scattering a,b and c around the map doesn't make it any less linear IMO.

non linear would mean I can kill them in any order, which would mean there would be no reason to look for anything, because I could just kill whatever I came across. THAT would be non linear. If I can kill A, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill B, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill C, that is linear, no matter that you make me wonder around the map like an idiot looking for each one because they spawn randomly.

 

So u agree that Darkfall is a sandbox game, u just want to argue some other points as well.

Neither of ur swordskill examples are liniear.

From wiki:

A game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore the game environment independently from the game's main objectives.

So the minute u can set ur own sequences to the progression content it becomes by definition non-linear.

The opposite is Wow, where quests will take u in a liniear path through the quests of the game and throu the zones of the game starting in the starter zones and ending in the highest lvl zone.

Darkfall is, obviously, the opposite of this.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It's hard to say if DF is or is not a sandbox game, since there is no generally accepted definition. Non-linear is actually quite vague.

If your idea is that it's a sandbox because leveling your character skills is non-linear I would disagree with that. You start with bow skill zero. You shoot bow over and over and over and over, and bow skill goes up.

You start with sword swing skill zero. You swing sword over and over and over and sword swing goes up.

 

That seems pretty linear.

My preference for a sandbox is features taht allow players to change the game world. The way your character increases in power, skills, levels, etc., seems more or less irrelevant to me.

Class based games tend to me more linear, that's true. You are level one, you can do content in zone A. Once you make it to level 10, you can do content in zone B, and so on. Of course the reason this is not a sandbox, IMO, is not because the content is linear, but because the content is static.

Save the princess. You do the quest, and the princess is not actually saved. She's waiting for the next player to save her. That would be the same if you had skills or levels.

 

 

Alright fair enough.

 

Let me begin with the sword skill example.

Lvling ur sword skill from lvl 1 to 100 is not by and of itself non-liniear, unless there are multiple ways of doing so. Lets assume that the sword skill will need progressively harder mobs or players to aquire skill gain, which it did in UO, and probably does here as well.

Where are those mobs located ?

In a progressive pattern following a linked series of zones? That would be world of warcraft.

Or randomly spread around the map.

That would be non-liniear as the path u would have to take would have to be ur own, unaided by quest descritiptions and a game developers intentions.

 

But lets not stop there, let me repost something I posted earlier in this thread, ignore the flamebaiting.

 

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)
Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.
AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.
Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?
U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.
U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.
Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.
And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

This is the most important argument for DF being a Sandbox.

 

Imagine if GankzRus teams up with dAgOoNiEsQuAd and a few other PK-griefer guilds and takes over all the towns across half the map. Then they declare themselves an alliance and starts to  raid and grief guild towns all over the map everyday, and starts to conquer the rest of the map.

Then people start to cry on the forum whining that large ganker guilds control the game and its ruining their gameplay.

 

Then YOU, yes YOU Ihmotepp the Goa'ul, gather ur clansmen and take out the original GankzRus AND dAgOoNiEsQuAd towns, level them to the ground and take em for ur own. Now ANYONE looking at the political map can see ur flag in the middle of all the Red skulls.

The resistance is born.

More and more guilds allign themselves to u, and under ur leadership u start to strike back with a giant unstoppable Zerg that rolls all the griefer towns to dust.

They no longer have their towns and resources and so remain a diminshed force.

 

That is player driven, REAL CHANGE right there.

True Sandbox, by ur own definition, u saved the princess, the princess remains saved.

 

(The princess is a metaphor)

 

-Darkstar

 

One problem in discussions of sandbox vs themepark is that like most things, there are no pure examples. There are no pure sandbox games, nor pure thempark games. Both usually have elements of the other, so you're really discussing more a matter of degree than anything else.

I agree that the ability to take and hold territory would change the game world, the princess would be saved so to speak, and that is a definite sandbox element. I would point out however, that this element is not required for a game ot be a sandbox, and IMO you could design a sandbox game with ZERO PvP.

However, simply moving spawns around the map doesn't make the progression non linear. It just ads an exploration feature to the game.

If killing a,b,c mobs is the best way to raise my sword skill, randomly scattering a,b and c around the map doesn't make it any less linear IMO.

non linear would mean I can kill them in any order, which would mean there would be no reason to look for anything, because I could just kill whatever I came across. THAT would be non linear. If I can kill A, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill B, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill C, that is linear, no matter that you make me wonder around the map like an idiot looking for each one because they spawn randomly.

 

 

So u agree that Darkfall is a sandbox game, u just want to argue some other points as well.

 

Neither of ur swordskill examples are liniear.

 

From wiki:

A game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore the game environment independently from the game's main objectives.

 

So the minute u can set ur own sequences to the progression content it becomes by definition non-linear.

 

The opposite is Wow, where quests will take u in a liniear path through the quests of the game and throu the zones of the game starting in the starter zones and ending in the highest lvl zone.

Darkfall is, obviously, the opposite of this.

 

-Darkstar

 

You almost got what I wrote, but not quite. I said taking and holding territory can change the game world and therefore it is an element of a sandbox game. Having one element of a sandbox game doesn't necessarily make the game a sandbox, IMO.

You will also note that I mentioned sandbox games do not require Pv P at all.

Again, let's say there are mobs A, B and C.

Now, can I kill them in any order? I get a sword, and I can run off immediately and kill C, then A, then B?

Or are some mobs harder than others, and I might not be able to kill them until I raise me sword skill?

A is easy, B is a bit harder, and C is very hard. Then I will have to kill them in the order of A, B and C.

If not, then it doesn't matter that they spawn randomly in the least, becuase rather than look for them, I will simply kill them in the order which I encounter them, since according to you they are not linear, and I can kill them in any order.

The fact that they are in the East of the map today, and in the West of the map tomorrow doensn't change the A, B, C linear order I will kill them in, it changes whether I run to the East or the West.

Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by mutombo55

.....

Exactly...well as long as we have at least 1 full server ill be happy.  Game has ridiculous potential and is hands down the best sandbox and immersive experience on the market right now.

.....

Except its not on the market yet.

 

If you do not like sandbox shitbox games - DO NOT BUY DF

 

 

gotta love the people who feel the need to make a comment like this...what are you doing here?  you arent going to convince someone prerelease to not buy it...theyll wait for reviews and not forum trolls....

its people like you that attract people to the game if anything lol...ugh its amazing that there are actually people behind the computer of guys like this.

Its funny cause I think people who brag how good the game is before launch are just as ridiculous. And I think they drive people away cause they make the game sound like its desperate.

Originally posted by Darkstar111

The opposite is Wow, where quests will take u in a liniear path through the quests of the game and throu the zones of the game starting in the starter zones and ending in the highest lvl zone.

Darkfall is, obviously, the opposite of this.

 

-Darkstar

 

You realize that this example of moving from lower level zones to higher level zones is going to be in EVERY game ever made...  Therefore it is a horrible example of why WoW is linear.  I am by no means saying its not linear but your example is simply terrible.  In fact  based purely on your example, when i played WoW I did lots of exploring of higher level zones regardless of where my quests sent me and I jumped around from zone to zone a lot.  So to me as I leveled, original WoW hardly felt to me like it was linear and more sandbox.  TBC on the other hand was very linear in comparison.

Originally posted by imbant

Originally posted by Zayne3145

Originally posted by daarco

I cant wait for all the people screaming"were are the quests?" LOL

Hope those people dont bother to play.

And about sieges..did you men the timer?? Its still in beta.

 

99% of the MMO community either don't know or don't care about DF. So I wouldn't worry about people running around crying that they can't see bright yellow exclamation marks above NPC's heads. Those of us that actually were interested in trying something different have been driven away by the DF community. It'll be carebear free, I can guarantee you that. The question is, in a world that is driven by PvP, is there going to be anyone left to fight?

 

99% is just a ridiculous overstatment for whatever reason you chose....that is not accurate whatsoever no matter how bad you want to believe it.

Darkfall has had the #1 or #2 spot on the "most popular" thing on this website showing unique hits to DF...it is at least been mentoined on every decent pvp guild forum...to say 99% of the mmo community doesnt know or doesnt care about DF is absurd.

Do the actual math of world wide MMO players, and I seriously doubt that Darkfall will get 1% of the total. Easily more then just the 200k-400k expected at launch (thats various peoples guesses, not mine). How ever that doesnt really matter. Some will play, some wont. My guess would be the game stablizes 150-250k players after all the hype blows over. not by any means a flop of a game. thats if they release it soon. longer delays may help them stabilize the game, but make players waiting for it angrier.

Back to on topic, Sandbox, meh who cares really.  I did find the OP's points quite entertaining to read. At least hes explaining it somewhat to people who drop in but have no idea of what to expect.

Originally posted by fuelle

Originally posted by Darkstar111

The opposite is Wow, where quests will take u in a liniear path through the quests of the game and throu the zones of the game starting in the starter zones and ending in the highest lvl zone.

Darkfall is, obviously, the opposite of this.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

You realize that this example of moving from lower level zones to higher level zones is going to be in EVERY game ever made...  Therefore it is a horrible example of why WoW is linear.  I am by no means saying its not linear but your example is simply terrible.  In fact  based purely on your example, when i played WoW I did lots of exploring of higher level zones regardless of where my quests sent me and I jumped around from zone to zone a lot.  So to me as I leveled, original WoW hardly felt to me like it was linear and more sandbox.  TBC on the other hand was very linear in comparison.

Yeah because of the nature of an MMO game, as opposed to a single player game like say, Fear.

In Fear u moved in a STRICT linear format thru the games content.

Now that is not possible in MMOs, at least not as far as Ive seen, so the example of wow having linear content holds true in an MMO setting because that is how ur progression was DESIGNED.

U can choose not to do it if u want, but its not how the game was intended to be played  and so u will get little to no benefit from it.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Darkstar111

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It's hard to say if DF is or is not a sandbox game, since there is no generally accepted definition. Non-linear is actually quite vague.

If your idea is that it's a sandbox because leveling your character skills is non-linear I would disagree with that. You start with bow skill zero. You shoot bow over and over and over and over, and bow skill goes up.

You start with sword swing skill zero. You swing sword over and over and over and sword swing goes up.

 

That seems pretty linear.

My preference for a sandbox is features taht allow players to change the game world. The way your character increases in power, skills, levels, etc., seems more or less irrelevant to me.

Class based games tend to me more linear, that's true. You are level one, you can do content in zone A. Once you make it to level 10, you can do content in zone B, and so on. Of course the reason this is not a sandbox, IMO, is not because the content is linear, but because the content is static.

Save the princess. You do the quest, and the princess is not actually saved. She's waiting for the next player to save her. That would be the same if you had skills or levels.

 

 

Alright fair enough.

 

Let me begin with the sword skill example.

Lvling ur sword skill from lvl 1 to 100 is not by and of itself non-liniear, unless there are multiple ways of doing so. Lets assume that the sword skill will need progressively harder mobs or players to aquire skill gain, which it did in UO, and probably does here as well.

Where are those mobs located ?

In a progressive pattern following a linked series of zones? That would be world of warcraft.

Or randomly spread around the map.

That would be non-liniear as the path u would have to take would have to be ur own, unaided by quest descritiptions and a game developers intentions.

 

But lets not stop there, let me repost something I posted earlier in this thread, ignore the flamebaiting.

 

Lets take the example of Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
Both allow u to place guild towns, and both allow u to siege and destroy opposing guilds towns (in aoc only battlekeeps)
Shadowbane allows u to place a guild town anywhere on the map, as long as its not too close to another town, and AoC has preset town markers u fill up, same as Darkfall.

Shadowbane is a Sandbox MMO.
AoC is NOT a Sandbox MMO.
Darkfall is a Sandbox MMO.

Now this is where ur contention comes in correct?
U say that since Darkfall has u placing towns only in predesigned town spots (like AoC) therefore it cannot be a Sandbox.

Well its not the system of how u place ur towns that makes the game a sandbox, its everything else.
U see in Shadowbane, guilds would hold the area around their towns as their own, they would use them for leveling, for farming and for aquiering "rare" items that would drop in their areas.
Most (not all) guilds would kill on sight any trespassers to their areas, and only thru diplomacy allow other guild members to join them in the leveling groups.

So what would basically happen is that u could look at the map and tell what areas belonged to whom, and were it was safe to go and so on, and when ppl went to war against each other, obviously this would change.
And that is pure unadulturated Sandbox, and that exact same feature exists in Darkfall too.

This is the most important argument for DF being a Sandbox.

 

Imagine if GankzRus teams up with dAgOoNiEsQuAd and a few other PK-griefer guilds and takes over all the towns across half the map. Then they declare themselves an alliance and starts to  raid and grief guild towns all over the map everyday, and starts to conquer the rest of the map.

Then people start to cry on the forum whining that large ganker guilds control the game and its ruining their gameplay.

 

Then YOU, yes YOU Ihmotepp the Goa'ul, gather ur clansmen and take out the original GankzRus AND dAgOoNiEsQuAd towns, level them to the ground and take em for ur own. Now ANYONE looking at the political map can see ur flag in the middle of all the Red skulls.

The resistance is born.

More and more guilds allign themselves to u, and under ur leadership u start to strike back with a giant unstoppable Zerg that rolls all the griefer towns to dust.

They no longer have their towns and resources and so remain a diminshed force.

 

That is player driven, REAL CHANGE right there.

True Sandbox, by ur own definition, u saved the princess, the princess remains saved.

 

(The princess is a metaphor)

 

-Darkstar

 

One problem in discussions of sandbox vs themepark is that like most things, there are no pure examples. There are no pure sandbox games, nor pure thempark games. Both usually have elements of the other, so you're really discussing more a matter of degree than anything else.

I agree that the ability to take and hold territory would change the game world, the princess would be saved so to speak, and that is a definite sandbox element. I would point out however, that this element is not required for a game ot be a sandbox, and IMO you could design a sandbox game with ZERO PvP.

However, simply moving spawns around the map doesn't make the progression non linear. It just ads an exploration feature to the game.

If killing a,b,c mobs is the best way to raise my sword skill, randomly scattering a,b and c around the map doesn't make it any less linear IMO.

non linear would mean I can kill them in any order, which would mean there would be no reason to look for anything, because I could just kill whatever I came across. THAT would be non linear. If I can kill A, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill B, then I need to increase my sword skill before I can kill C, that is linear, no matter that you make me wonder around the map like an idiot looking for each one because they spawn randomly.

 

 

So u agree that Darkfall is a sandbox game, u just want to argue some other points as well.

 

Neither of ur swordskill examples are liniear.

 

From wiki:

A game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore the game environment independently from the game's main objectives.

 

So the minute u can set ur own sequences to the progression content it becomes by definition non-linear.

 

The opposite is Wow, where quests will take u in a liniear path through the quests of the game and throu the zones of the game starting in the starter zones and ending in the highest lvl zone.

Darkfall is, obviously, the opposite of this.

 

-Darkstar

 

 

You almost got what I wrote, but not quite. I said taking and holding territory can change the game world and therefore it is an element of a sandbox game. Having one element of a sandbox game doesn't necessarily make the game a sandbox, IMO.

You will also note that I mentioned sandbox games do not require Pv P at all.

Again, let's say there are mobs A, B and C.

Now, can I kill them in any order? I get a sword, and I can run off immediately and kill C, then A, then B?

Or are some mobs harder than others, and I might not be able to kill them until I raise me sword skill?

A is easy, B is a bit harder, and C is very hard. Then I will have to kill them in the order of A, B and C.

If not, then it doesn't matter that they spawn randomly in the least, becuase rather than look for them, I will simply kill them in the order which I encounter them, since according to you they are not linear, and I can kill them in any order.

The fact that they are in the East of the map today, and in the West of the map tomorrow doensn't change the A, B, C linear order I will kill them in, it changes whether I run to the East or the West.

 

first of all, having a sandbox element, sorta already makes the game a sandbox game, specially if that element is as significant as towns and sieging.

No pvp is not a requirement, I believe Sims Online proves that, thou ive never played it myself.

Ok about ur example, here is the point im trying to make.

U got mobs A, mobs B and mobs C.

U start with mobs A, and move on to B and then C, this is linear, because all numerical values has to increase numerically.

But they are not just in one camp, there are many mobs A spread all over the map, plenty mobs B and several mobs C.

Their camps are located all over the map, but u dont need to visit all the camps, in fact u only technically need one. So u choose which camp to go to, and since the mobs are different, goblins, orcs, skeletons could all be in the Mob A bracket, ur choice will change ur game experience.

Based on location, what it takes to get there and the behaviour of the mob.

And that is also a Sandbox element.

-Darkstar

In RL if i was practising with a sword against a below par opponent, just like ant skill i could only progress so far. then i come across a higher skilled opponent and 90% of the time i would get beaten with style. The only way i can better myself is by practising against higher skilled opponents! games translate this by making you have to fight higher skilled/level mobs to increase skills. Call it linear or non linear, it's still the most reasobable way to create a game.

One thing i would like to see is the " non static" mobs. goblins that moved across the world scavenging and searching for places to take root. if they are drove out they move again. Now if that was possible and "I" as a player can influence this, then that's sandbox to me. levelling skills, or gaining levels is the same, just simply different coded gameplay!

Why do you speak of mobs when you wanna raise skills??

Its a sandbox MMO. You train with your friends (other players) and do sparring. Noone goes to a mob to gain skills. That would only be stupid.

Problem with the "sandbox" and why it will fail.   Developers can not forecast every method the player base will use.    Certain players live to grief.   

Griefing players tend to group up and form large guilds.    Since they are griefers they tend to have no social life outside the game.

This large, organized, no life group of grief takes over the game by playing longer and exploiting more than the majority of others in the game.

The majority get angry and cancel accounts.

Game goes bankrupt.   Griefers leave and move on to destroy another game.

Developers wake up, realize what I stated is true and create another theme park game since the MMO gaming community can not be trusted with the keys to the city.

People just say mobs friend as in anything that can fight back. it's just a phrase that's all! and hopefully in DF you cant get better unless you practise against things that can hit back, otherwise it's gonna be kid's r us all over again.

Sandbox = Player driven content, e.g, Adventurine give you the tools and the world, and players create the gameplay experience.

Eve is a prime example, 90% of what is good in Eve is player driven content IE Corporation Wars/Alliances/Pirating/Bounty Hunting/Extorting/Playing the markets, the developers have very little control over any of this...only the mechanics.

WOW'esque typical MMO's = Developer driven content. Everything you do pretty much is designed and pre-planned by Blizzard, we simply level up and follow the herd from zone to zone till you max.

Thats the best way to sum up Sandbox defintion, and IMHO is the future for MMO's. They just arn't easy to implement. Ultima Online and Eve are the only one's that got near the mark IMO.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Problem with the "sandbox" and why it will fail.   Developers can not forecast every method the player base will use.    Certain players live to grief.   

Griefing players tend to group up and form large guilds.    Since they are griefers they tend to have no social life outside the game.

This large, organized, no life group of grief takes over the game by playing longer and exploiting more than the majority of others in the game.

The majority get angry and cancel accounts.

Game goes bankrupt.   Griefers leave and move on to destroy another game.

Developers wake up, realize what I stated is true and create another theme park game since the MMO gaming community can not be trusted with the keys to the city.

 

 

 

 

No, when this happens the rest bans together.

Ive experienced exactly this in Shadowbane, another Sandbox MMO.

As U say the big Zerg guilds will appear, but enough ppl will hate the zerg to form a resistance.

-Darkstar

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Problem with the "sandbox" and why it will fail.   Developers can not forecast every method the player base will use.    Certain players live to grief.   

Griefing players tend to group up and form large guilds.    Since they are griefers they tend to have no social life outside the game.

This large, organized, no life group of grief takes over the game by playing longer and exploiting more than the majority of others in the game.

The majority get angry and cancel accounts.

Game goes bankrupt.   Griefers leave and move on to destroy another game.

Developers wake up, realize what I stated is true and create another theme park game since the MMO gaming community can not be trusted with the keys to the city.

 

 

 

 

So your plan is just to give up?

To let the them have it without a fight? But i guess you are just using sarcasm : )

And maybe you are right? t would have been better if the rebels in Star wars had given up, or the Fellowship on Lord of the Rings....or Braveheart! If you like storys with conflict and wars, then DF is something for you. If dont like that....then dont buy it.

Originally posted by imbant

Very simple.  Darkfall is a ridiculously amazing sandbox game, but it is very very very "sandboxy".

In light of all of the recent hype over recently released mmorpg's I am surprised to see such a bold statement, especially for one that isn't even out yet. Look back on what has happened upon a month after release of the recent MMO's. Age of Conan ... please, everyone was drooling over this WoW killer, and I see the same symptoms with this game.  Warhammer, contrary to what some may think - did not fail but alot of people read in to the hype and expected things that this game was never intended to deliver, which leads to your Warhammer haters.

To me this game looks like just another MMORPG.. elves, goblins, dwarves.. please haven't we seen enough. You can add all the fancy features you want but you aren't original, it has been done. Sure, it may be good... when and if the day comes that this game hits it big, I will take my lashings for this post. This game just looks like a CHEESY version of EverQuest.

Originally posted by bryan58

Originally posted by imbant

Very simple.  Darkfall is a ridiculously amazing sandbox game, but it is very very very "sandboxy".

 

In light of all of the recent hype over recently released mmorpg's I am surprised to see such a bold statement, especially for one that isn't even out yet. Look back on what has happened upon a month after release of the recent MMO's. Age of Conan ... please, everyone was drooling over this WoW killer, and I see the same symptoms with this game.  Warhammer, contrary to what some may think - did not fail but alot of people read in to the hype and expected things that this game was never intended to deliver, which leads to your Warhammer haters.

To me this game looks like just another MMORPG.. elves, goblins, dwarves.. please haven't we seen enough. You can add all the fancy features you want but you aren't original, it has been done. Sure, it may be good... when and if the day comes that this game hits it big, I will take my lashings for this post. This game just looks like a CHEESY version of EverQuest.

From yout post i can terll you dont know anything about DF. Think DF as "The Dark Knight". People scream "no, not another superhere movie!"! But they have no clue whats gonna hit them. DF is nothing as any other MMO out there right now. Trust me.

Originally posted by daarco

 

From yout post i can terll you dont know anything about DF. Think DF as "The Dark Knight". People scream "no, not another superhere movie!"! But they have no clue whats gonna hit them. DF is nothing as any other MMO out there right now. Trust me.

You are another one feeding in to the hype, claiming the game is unlike anything out there now - however it has not even been released yet - the game is only wrapping up beta testing if I am not mistaken.

You are right, no one really knows what is going to hit them. Really, like I said if the game turns out to be HALF as good as everyone expects - I will accept the lashings for being negative. Right now I see this "Just another super hero movie", however this will be the one people only talk about the night they watch it and the week after. 

Just for the record, I do know a pretty decent amount of information about Darkfall