Originally posted by baff 

I don't live in America either, although I have taught thousands of people to speak english in my time. Including Mexicans.

You just cornered yourself. No, you do not live here. You do not see what we do every single day. So, don't act as if you do. We would not have the option on our customer service lines to "press 1 for English" otherwise.

Let me straighten this out for you. The ones coming here legally, yes, some learn the language - illegally, nope, they sure in hell don't.

And, when I was abroad, once again, I spoke in their tongue, I didn't expect them to speak in mine. That's a key difference as well - they expect it.

I agree that they should follow all applicable laws and regulations in order to work in the US.

That being said as a Canadian who has worked one summer on a friend's fruit farm for a few weeks, I can tell you that no American want to work picking fruits.

No it doesnt pay 75k a year!

But on average the mexican there could make about 75$ or more a day. We arent even talking a full day either, Most of us were done by 2pm.

Thing is those kinda jobs, you Americans dont want.

Last month or so, me and the GF went to the states, again same thing, I seen mexicans working lettuces fields....not a single american....

You get illegals because most of you dont care for those jobs, Stop snobbing those jobs and perhaps when those jobs become rare will the illegals stop coming.... Much easier to bitch at them eh?

Originally posted by senadin

Thing is those kinda jobs, you Americans dont want.

And you know this, how? Show me your statistical research data verifying the validity of this fact you so confidently put forth.

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin

Thing is those kinda jobs, you Americans dont want.

And you know this, how? Show me your statistical research data verifying the validity of this fact you so confidently put forth.

First hand experience, as i worked those jobs myself while travelling the US. That's how come i know this. Go to your fast food joint, go in any office building, look at whose doing the janitorial jobs. The dirty jobs. Immigrants in very large part.

I dont need a PHD and billions in research. Just good common sense.

Funny, when I grew up in Jersey, the janitors in my schools were VERY American. The garbage men lived a few neigborhoods over and were not illegals, since they were white with Jersey accents;)  The Burger King was worked by mostly highschool/college students.  The bus boys & dishwashers in resurants weren't illegals because they looked like me ALSO with Jersey accents.  You get the point.  This was years ago, when illegals weren't as a big a problem.  So please explain how no one will do those jobs anymore?  They did then.  Why not now?  Its because illegals can get it done cheaper and are willing to work for nothing since its better than where they come from.  If there were no illegals, ALL the jobs illegals do would be filled by GUESS WHO.

Originally posted by Narug

What the hell is going to happen with the "Change We Can Believe In?"  George Soros's architect plans might be in a snag?  What are we gonna do now man?  What are we gonna do?  Where's the boat?  Where's the boat?  hehe

Seriously though.  It's too bad companies are still trying to find time to replace born and bread Americans with foreigners that supposeably work harder (don't buy it personally) and work for less. (obviously this part is true)  That's probably why we're seeing all these layoffs. (I hardly doubt companies want to hire back Americans when they can make mounds off foreigners instead: Change We Can Believe In disgustingly)

actually most Americans are smart enough to demand certain rights at work (ones granted under law).  Immigrants are happy to just work.  Safety, overtime and numerous other rights at work are expensive.  If an immigrant not only works for less than someone else but also demands less services then the company saves even more money.

Also (this is judging from Australian construction workers) immigrants do tend to work harder.

Originally posted by senadin

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin

Thing is those kinda jobs, you Americans dont want.

And you know this, how? Show me your statistical research data verifying the validity of this fact you so confidently put forth.

 

First hand experience, as i worked those jobs myself while travelling the US. That's how come i know this. Go to your fast food joint, go in any office building, look at whose doing the janitorial jobs. The dirty jobs. Immigrants in very large part.

 

I dont need a PHD and billions in research. Just good common sense.

I guess you have poor common sense then. Employment in such industries depend upon the demographics within that area.

It's a fact that most agricultural and day jobs are done by immigrants.

Number of immigrant workers jumps to highest in decades; pressures wages



NEW YORK (CNNfn) - The number of immigrant workers in the U.S. labor force has climbed to its highest level in seven decades, according to a newspaper report.

On a day when Americans celebrate Labor Day, the New York Times reported Monday that the latest figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the number of immigrant workers jumped to 15.7 million last year, an increase of 17 percent from three years earlier.

Also, the National Academy of Sciences study found that the influx of immigrants, especially illegal, unskilled workers from Mexico and the rest of Latin America have pushed wages down by 5 percent for U.S.-born workers who have less than a high school education, the report said.

With the unemployment rate at 4.1 percent, near its lowest rate in 40 years, many employers are pressing Congress for legislation that would allow hundreds of thousands more immigrant workers to enter the United States each year, said the newspaper report.

But groups, such as labor unions and engineers' associations, are fighting such a move out of fear that it would depress wages and decrease the number of jobs for American workers, the report said.

Immigrants dominate in the dozens of often low-paying, arduous jobs, such as poultry plant workers, meat packers, fruit and vegetable pickers, and hotel maids, said the report. And they now represent 12 percent of the nation's workers.

Economists and demographers predict a continuing surge in immigrant workers unless there is an economic downturn. Under existing quotas, about 800,000 immigrants enter the country legally. An estimated 300,000 enter illegally, according to the report. Back to top

God you sir are retarded,

You want some research? Dont be a moron and a lazy ass and google it. There's countless pages of infos that immigrant workers are doing those jobs. Most southern states and states that rely on temp work hire those illegal and legal migrant workers. Without those workers and since the majority of the US white citizens dont do it, your agricultural economy would ammount to nothing. This is not something solely happening in the US but in most developed countries. The white man simply cant seem to do or want to do those jobs.

As a kid and young teenager i worked on a tobacco farm. The last few years that i was working those job during the summer, Most farm had to actually pay some company that would hire legally migrant workers for the harvest. This is a job that a young kid could easily make 100$ for about 6 hours of hard labor. when you are 16, this is great money for the summer for a month and a half of work. If the farmer had to hire those workers from Mexico and the Phillipines, it's because most kids, even tho this was good money, are too damn lazy! They couldnt find workers for this, not even adult!

Bottom line is bitch and complain on a forum is easy, but you gota face the facts. Then again, you bitch you want facts, i gave you some, but i guess it will be for nothing. Much easier to whine and get your blindfold on and blame them eh?

Illegal immigration is a small problem in the United States compared to what it is facing over the next few years.

People should realize that the pressures on the American wage downward come from international pressures moreso than any internal source.  All illegal immigrants have done is kept some American owned industry alive where it would not have if the labor supply did not exist.  

Beyond the financial implosion, the US has constantly been flooding the international world with its dollars.  Dollars, that when they disappeared, were not available on the US side to pay American workers.  This is a systemic problem with the US that was masked by an unsustainable credit train.  

But people will blame who they wish...even non-skilled labour from Latin America.

Originally posted by Death1942

Originally posted by Narug

What the hell is going to happen with the "Change We Can Believe In?"  George Soros's architect plans might be in a snag?  What are we gonna do now man?  What are we gonna do?  Where's the boat?  Where's the boat?  hehe

Seriously though.  It's too bad companies are still trying to find time to replace born and bread Americans with foreigners that supposeably work harder (don't buy it personally) and work for less. (obviously this part is true)  That's probably why we're seeing all these layoffs. (I hardly doubt companies want to hire back Americans when they can make mounds off foreigners instead: Change We Can Believe In disgustingly)

 

actually most Americans are smart enough to demand certain rights at work (ones granted under law).  Immigrants are happy to just work.  Safety, overtime and numerous other rights at work are expensive.  If an immigrant not only works for less than someone else but also demands less services then the company saves even more money.

 

Also (this is judging from Australian construction workers) immigrants do tend to work harder.

One problem with your statement against Americans is in recent news worker productivity has increased when days have been cut from the week.

Another problem is you just said Americans are smarter but physically weaker than their immigrant counterparts.  I'm chubby myself and have worked harder than thin people.  Thus this proves that a perceptive advantage is not always an actual one.

Edit: Want to add an obvious here and say I've seen other chubby peeps working harder than their thin counterparts.

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin

Thing is those kinda jobs, you Americans dont want.

And you know this, how? Show me your statistical research data verifying the validity of this fact you so confidently put forth.

 

First hand experience, as i worked those jobs myself while travelling the US. That's how come i know this. Go to your fast food joint, go in any office building, look at whose doing the janitorial jobs. The dirty jobs. Immigrants in very large part.

 

I dont need a PHD and billions in research. Just good common sense.

I guess you have poor common sense then. Employment in such industries depend upon the demographics within that area.

Common sense is gained from personal experience, not reading demographics.

Same for me here in England by the way, minimum wage jobs aren't hard to find. The difference is a domestic worker see's a minimum wage job as something to do as a teenager and an immigrant is quite willing to do it for their whole life. 

My mates companies prefer to hire immigrant labour. They are reliable. They do the job and are pleased to come to work. Domestic workers think it's beneath them and move on to something new at the earliest opportunities. Domestic American workers can compete with immigrant workers, they could work illegally too. The work is there.

Originally posted by senadin 

God you sir are retarded,

Bottom line is bitch and complain on a forum is easy, but you gota face the facts. Then again, you bitch you want facts, i gave you some, but i guess it will be for nothing. Much easier to whine and get your blindfold on and blame them eh?

Because the majority of positions [are] filled [by illegals] does not mean that Americans do not want to do the jobs. The majority of jobs are filled by illegals because the person providing the work does not want to pay an honest wage. There is quite a big difference between wanting to do a job and slaving away making $1.00/hr.

Once again, show me proof that Americans do not want to do those jobs. You're posting items that support my argument, not yours. Now go beat your head against the wall and scramble your brains. Maybe you will knock some sense into yourself.

wow, im embarrased to call myself a u.s. citizen

Originally posted by Tails1

wow, im embarrased to call myself a u.s. citizen

I'm embarrased to call you one as well.

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin 

God you sir are retarded,

Bottom line is bitch and complain on a forum is easy, but you gota face the facts. Then again, you bitch you want facts, i gave you some, but i guess it will be for nothing. Much easier to whine and get your blindfold on and blame them eh?

Because the majority of positions [are] filled [by illegals] does not mean that Americans do not want to do the jobs. The majority of jobs are filled by illegals because the person providing the work does not want to pay an honest wage. There is quite a big difference between wanting to do a job and slaving away making $1.00/hr.

Once again, show me proof that Americans do not want to do those jobs. You're posting items that support my argument, not yours. Now go beat your head against the wall and scramble your brains. Maybe you will knock some sense into yourself.

 

Pretty much.  You can argue that labor intensive jobs are filled largely with immigrants, but you can't argue that people don't want those jobs.  Intentions can't be quantified by some statistics.  Perhaps they want the jobs but can't afford to make the same wages as immigrants, perhaps they just don't want the job.  Who knows? 

i will tell you guys what goes on. Illegal immigrants or non-certified employees are hired to do most of the actual construction work on homes or buildings. When the Sheriff is called, if the Sheriff is called, it is usually by the time they are finished or nearly finished. At that point they will hire certified AMERICAN workers to say that they did.

American workers want these obs and want to do them, to say anything else is a LIE.

ps several of my keys no longer function, the one between H and K and Z and C, main enter button, and the number between 5 and 7 among others. sorry

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by senadin 

God you sir are retarded,

Bottom line is bitch and complain on a forum is easy, but you gota face the facts. Then again, you bitch you want facts, i gave you some, but i guess it will be for nothing. Much easier to whine and get your blindfold on and blame them eh?

Because the majority of positions [are] filled [by illegals] does not mean that Americans do not want to do the jobs. The majority of jobs are filled by illegals because the person providing the work does not want to pay an honest wage. There is quite a big difference between wanting to do a job and slaving away making $1.00/hr.

Once again, show me proof that Americans do not want to do those jobs. You're posting items that support my argument, not yours. Now go beat your head against the wall and scramble your brains. Maybe you will knock some sense into yourself.

 

You have hit the nail on the head, most Americans are not willing to do the job for the price the market values it at.

One of the more serious side effects of creating a minimum wage has been forcing your industries to migrate abroad. Business that run on tight margins cannot afford to pay it.

There is no point whatsover in paying so much on getting your crops in, that they cost more money than you can sell them for. Far better to just abandon them completely. Let them rot in the fields.

If the job is worth $1 dollar, (seems an unlikely example wage to me), then either you want it or you don't. And don't come crying to me if you don't but someone else still does. Just because a job is available for $1 doesn't mean it will still be available if you demand to be paid 2. The world is tough all over.

If domestic labour will not do the job at the price the market requires to make it worth doing, then those jobs simply won't get done (and the businesses will fold). No one will just magically pay you extra because you think you deserve more (or you used to get more for the same in the past). You have priced yourself out of the market.

It is better to have some American farmers still with jobs because they hired illegals than to run all the illegals out and still have no jobs for legals and also have less jobs for farmers. (Plus have the global price of food go up at a time when even less people are able to pay it).

Working for low pay is not slavery. Slavery is when you are forced to do something for no pay. Working for low pay is an economic decision. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. But be advised, it is a competative world. Don't expect other people not to be willing to take jobs just because you yourself think it is beneath you to do so.

Proof that American's don't want those jobs? 

It's easy. You need no links at all. People from outside of America are able to get them. They turn up without making any arrangements and walk right into them with no qualifications and no problem. They are so easy to get that people all round the world don't even think twice of risking all their money to travel there for those jobs on the off chance.

What bigger proof can I give you than those jobs existing and they are the pre-domain of migrant labour.

A local guy living within 50 miles couldn't get those jobs easier? Of course he could. He just doesn't want to. Like you he thinks earning enough to buy Playstation and eat out is a human right. That anything else is slavery and he deserves more.

Most Americans don't want those kinds of jobs. It's the same in every rich country.

Originally posted by baff 

You have hit the nail on the head, most Americans are not willing to do the job for the price the market values it at.

All you have done by creating a minimum wage is forced your industries to migrate abroad. Business that run on tight margins cannot afford to pay it.

If the job is worth $1 dollar, (seems an unlikely example wage to me), then either you want it or you don't. And don't come crying to me if you don't but someone else still does. Just because a job is available for $1 doesn't mean it will still be available if you demand to be paid 2. The world is tough all over.

Working for low pay is not slavery. Slavery is when you are forced to do something for no pay. Working for low pay is an economic decision. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. But be advised, it is a competative world.

The market does not value the job at such a low wage. The farmers could not get away with such low wages if they used a legal market pool. They are using a black market labor pool - an illegal labor pool.

And, minimum wage is now just above $7/hr. That's not very much money. You will find those that illegally work for $1 or less per hour picking strawberries, bailing hay, etc. - jobs that traditionally paid much more. The reason is they want more profits. What would happen if they actually paid the job what it was worth ? Prices would go up. And, you know what? That is fine by me. I would rather pay a higher price knowing that a legal worker is getting paid for what the job is worth than paying less and supporting illegal workers.

Yes, I know the terminology for slavery. However, the term as a slave labor class has been thrown around. Call it serfdom, if you must.

Edit: And, I don't believe I ever said bying a Playstation or eating out is a human right. In fact, something similar I stated before were that such items were luxeries, not rights.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Dekron

Ahhh, poor little man can't find a job to undercut a US citizen who would actually like to work for at least minimum wage?

My gift to him is a boot to the ass and a resounding "Illegals are not welcome here!"

Next time, poor man, apply for citizenship, then you may enter - legally.

 

 

Yea, how dare them for not wanting to wait years to pull their family out of starvation.  They need to get rid of that ambition asap.

Who said anything about starvation. Problem is we have Americans wanting to do the same thing. Yet we have americans who have alot of unskilled work labor unable to find this work due to the flood out.

See it's cool when it's legal immigration, those are the people who can be held accountable for actions.

It's the illegals that pisses me off. Only for this reason, you can work/live here but you won't abide the simply laws of "get a workers visa" or something of that effect?

It's like this all over, we're in a rather interesting crunch, I'd rather see a "starving" family out of oaklahoma picking cherries/tomatoes/whatever than an illegal non accountable for his actions doing the same work.

I've very recently gone the route of "%#$%^ the rest of the world and their problems" after walking down the streets of SF and seeing BLOCKS of homeless near the Tenderloin at night. Meanwhile people like you simply go "oh yes but those people in that country are hungry and poor". Dude look at the bigger picture. People , our people are suffering in the same way that many of our grandparents did in the depression.

Americans are starving, living without homes,medications, and various other things needed to be even considered human and not feral.

It's always the "middle class +" that sees the whole "the other people in the other country are ....<this>" without seeing how the poor in our own country suffers.  I can understand compassion for the remaining world, but when you are living in a FIRST WORLD country and unable to gain any kind of aid due to foreign drainage? Yeah , my compassion dies  real easy.

For the most part the "planet" is generally "Anti-american but we love american stuff", so call me xenophobic or whatever, but I've seen first hand the human suffering of Americans and I'd rather give my all and my compassion to the people of my own country than that of south america/asia/middleeast.

They would do the same.

My point is, before you can even BEGIN to talk about starvation. Get you asses to a soup kitchen and watch the lines, the disapointed faces when "There is not enough". SF, CA is a good place to start, then head over to Stockton ,CA. Then Sac,CA.  Next lets head over to the south where unemployment rates are skyrocketing.

Oh but we must care for those people first.

How you gonna worry about another kids being thirsty when your own is? How are you gonna clean anothers house when yours is dirty. Get some perspective, get that bleeding heart to bleed for the base countries people before you worry about anothers. Christ on a cracker during the 4th of july!

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by baff 

You have hit the nail on the head, most Americans are not willing to do the job for the price the market values it at.

All you have done by creating a minimum wage is forced your industries to migrate abroad. Business that run on tight margins cannot afford to pay it.

If the job is worth $1 dollar, (seems an unlikely example wage to me), then either you want it or you don't. And don't come crying to me if you don't but someone else still does. Just because a job is available for $1 doesn't mean it will still be available if you demand to be paid 2. The world is tough all over.

Working for low pay is not slavery. Slavery is when you are forced to do something for no pay. Working for low pay is an economic decision. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. But be advised, it is a competative world.

The market does not value the job at such a low wage. The farmers could not get away with such low wages if they used a legal market pool. They are using a black market labor pool - an illegal labor pool.

And, minimum wage is now just above $7/hr. That's not very much money. You will find those that illegally work for $1 or less per hour picking strawberries, bailing hay, etc. - jobs that traditionally paid much more. The reason is they want more profits. What would happen if they actually paid the job what it was worth ? Prices would go up. And, you know what? That is fine by me. I would rather pay a higher price knowing that a legal worker is getting paid for what the job is worth than paying less and supporting illegal workers.

Yes, I know the terminology for slavery. However, the term as a slave labor class has been thrown around. Call it serfdom, if you must.

Edit: And, I don't believe I ever said bying a Playstation or eating out is a human right. In fact, something similar I stated before were that such items were luxeries, not rights.

If an illegal can live off $1 an hour, so can you. He is willing to, you are not.

Your idea of luxuries clearly aren't the same as your competitions are.

$7/hr may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to most of the world that is a very well paid job. Enough to both live on and save a decent stake with.

Throwing around terms like serfdom and slavery makes for great soundbites but has no validity. No one is being forced to do work against there will. They are happy to. They are not born into the land and their employment rights something to be bought and sold.

Immigrants travel a lot further to get these jobs than most people do to get theirs. We are discussing a labour market. American workers are not being replaced by serfs. They are being undercut by economic migrants. People who are both ready to work for less and willing to relocate for that price to boot.

They aren't being undercut in a free labour market of course because the government regulates it favour of it's voters.

The government dictates the minimum wage. Not the market.
 

Agricultural pay has never been traditionally high. The minimum wage was always higher than basic agricultural wages were here. When it came in it raised them accross the board.

From 2007-2010 in the  U.S. minimum wage will go up by about $2. The price of strawberries however will not.

Worse than this, the market price of strawberries is totally different each year. The job is not worth the same price everytime and you can't predict what next years weather will be at the time of planting, let alone predict it for every strawberry farm worldwide. With your minimum wage and your idea's of what is a reasonable amount of money to be paid you are quite simply forcing marginal business to fold or break the law and hire illegals.

It seems farcical to me that you choose to imagine farmers as gluttonous fatcats rich off the profits of exploitating the poor when it is the small stakeholder farms your ideology is hell bent on destroying. Those small stakeholder business on tight margins just ekeing out enough for one family to live on....it's them that can't afford to play by the rules. Not the giant mega-corps.

You would rather pay more for your food? Unfortunately although many other people say exactly the same as you, when faced with two identical punnets of strawberries next to each other in a supermarket, they will always buy the one that costs $1 over the one that costs $7. The fantasy ends right there.

In fact, knowing this the supermarkets won't even buy the $7 Dollar ones. the farmer who chose your ideology over basic economic forces will go bankrupt the same year.

Instead of buying your strawberries at $7, why not each time you buy some $1 strawberries, you give an American of your choice the other $6. If you feel you want to pay more to keep other Americans wealthy you still can.

Better yet start your own strawberry farm. Bring justice to your society!
 

My bet is that just like our average shopper, when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, your mouth will keep flapping but your money will stay in your wallet.

Originally posted by Astropuyo

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Dekron

Ahhh, poor little man can't find a job to undercut a US citizen who would actually like to work for at least minimum wage?

My gift to him is a boot to the ass and a resounding "Illegals are not welcome here!"

Next time, poor man, apply for citizenship, then you may enter - legally.

 

 

Yea, how dare them for not wanting to wait years to pull their family out of starvation.  They need to get rid of that ambition asap.

 

 

Who said anything about starvation. Problem is we have Americans wanting to do the same thing. Yet we have americans who have alot of unskilled work labor unable to find this work due to the flood out.

See it's cool when it's legal immigration, those are the people who can be held accountable for actions.

It's the illegals that pisses me off. Only for this reason, you can work/live here but you won't abide the simply laws of "get a workers visa" or something of that effect?

 

It's like this all over, we're in a rather interesting crunch, I'd rather see a "starving" family out of oaklahoma picking cherries/tomatoes/whatever than an illegal non accountable for his actions doing the same work.

 

 

I've very recently gone the route of "%#$%^ the rest of the world and their problems" after walking down the streets of SF and seeing BLOCKS of homeless near the Tenderloin at night. Meanwhile people like you simply go "oh yes but those people in that country are hungry and poor". Dude look at the bigger picture. People , our people are suffering in the same way that many of our grandparents did in the depression.

Americans are starving, living without homes,medications, and various other things needed to be even considered human and not feral.

 

It's always the "middle class +" that sees the whole "the other people in the other country are ....<this>" without seeing how the poor in our own country suffers.  I can understand compassion for the remaining world, but when you are living in a FIRST WORLD country and unable to gain any kind of aid due to foreign drainage? Yeah , my compassion dies  real easy.

 

For the most part the "planet" is generally "Anti-american but we love american stuff", so call me xenophobic or whatever, but I've seen first hand the human suffering of Americans and I'd rather give my all and my compassion to the people of my own country than that of south america/asia/middleeast.

They would do the same.

 

My point is, before you can even BEGIN to talk about starvation. Get you asses to a soup kitchen and watch the lines, the disapointed faces when "There is not enough". SF, CA is a good place to start, then head over to Stockton ,CA. Then Sac,CA.  Next lets head over to the south where unemployment rates are skyrocketing.

 

Oh but we must care for those people first.

How you gonna worry about another kids being thirsty when your own is? How are you gonna clean anothers house when yours is dirty. Get some perspective, get that bleeding heart to bleed for the base countries people before you worry about anothers. Christ on a cracker during the 4th of july!

 

I agree with the protectionist statments in your post.

This for me is my major concern with immigrant workforces.

While most people in my country really don't want those jobs, or at least not once they leave their teens, I have a friend who does. His name is Derek.

Derek is a half wit. He's a nice guy but simple.

Derek was a serial dish washer. He's worked in all the restaurents in town. It's not a high paid job, it's minimum wage, but he works, he keeps his disabled wife. He has a house. After work he enjoys a beer the lads and he likes his football.

A few years ago our government signed up for a free labour treaty with the EU. Within 2 years we had a million new immigrants from eastern Europe. 2% of our total population.

Now, when Derek applies for a dish washer job, he is competing with fully compsus mentus people.

He no longer works. His wife has left him. He does not work. He shoplifts for food and lives in the halfway house with all the smack addicts. Pretty soon, being the impressionable and keen to fit kind of guy he is, he will be a junky too, and then die.

Now I don't give a monkeys about legal or illegal. But I care about Derek and immigration disenfranchises the weakest elements of our society.

Originally posted by baff

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by baff 

You have hit the nail on the head, most Americans are not willing to do the job for the price the market values it at.

All you have done by creating a minimum wage is forced your industries to migrate abroad. Business that run on tight margins cannot afford to pay it.

If the job is worth $1 dollar, (seems an unlikely example wage to me), then either you want it or you don't. And don't come crying to me if you don't but someone else still does. Just because a job is available for $1 doesn't mean it will still be available if you demand to be paid 2. The world is tough all over.

Working for low pay is not slavery. Slavery is when you are forced to do something for no pay. Working for low pay is an economic decision. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. But be advised, it is a competative world.

The market does not value the job at such a low wage. The farmers could not get away with such low wages if they used a legal market pool. They are using a black market labor pool - an illegal labor pool.

And, minimum wage is now just above $7/hr. That's not very much money. You will find those that illegally work for $1 or less per hour picking strawberries, bailing hay, etc. - jobs that traditionally paid much more. The reason is they want more profits. What would happen if they actually paid the job what it was worth ? Prices would go up. And, you know what? That is fine by me. I would rather pay a higher price knowing that a legal worker is getting paid for what the job is worth than paying less and supporting illegal workers.

Yes, I know the terminology for slavery. However, the term as a slave labor class has been thrown around. Call it serfdom, if you must.

Edit: And, I don't believe I ever said bying a Playstation or eating out is a human right. In fact, something similar I stated before were that such items were luxeries, not rights.

If an illegal can live off $1 an hour, so can you. He is willing to, you are not.

Your idea of luxuries clearly aren't the same as your competitions are.

 

 

$7/hr may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to most of the world that is a very well paid job. Enough to both live on and save a decent stake with.

Throwing around terms like serfdom and slavery makes for great soundbites but has no validity. No one is being forced to do work against there will. They are happy to. They are not born into the land and their employment rights something to be bought and sold.

Immigrants travel a lot further to get these jobs than most people do to get theirs. We are discussing a labour market. American workers are not being replaced by serfs. They are being undercut by economic migrants. People who are both ready to work for less and willing to relocate for that price to boot.

They aren't being undercut in a free labour market of course because the government regulates it favour of it's voters.

 

 

The government dictates the minimum wage. Not the market.
 

Agricultural pay has never been traditionally high. The minimum wage was always higher than basic agricultural wages were here. When it came in it raised them accross the board.

From 2007-2010 in the  U.S. minimum wage will go up by about $2. The price of strawberries however will not.

Worse than this, the market price of strawberries is totally different each year. The job is not worth the same price everytime and you can't predict what next years weather will be at the time of planting, let alone predict it for every strawberry farm worldwide. With your minimum wage and your idea's of what is a reasonable amount of money to be paid you are quite simply forcing marginal business to fold or break the law and hire illegals.

 

It seems farcical to me that you choose to imagine farmers as gluttonous fatcats rich off the profits of exploitating the poor when it is the small stakeholder farms your ideology is hell bent on destroying. Those small stakeholder business on tight margins just ekeing out enough for one family to live on....it's them that can't afford to play by the rules. Not the giant mega-corps.

 

You would rather pay more for your food? Unfortunately although many other people say exactly the same as you, when faced with two identical punnets of strawberries next to each other in a supermarket, they will always buy the one that costs $1 over the one that costs $7. The fantasy ends right there.

In fact, knowing this the supermarkets won't even buy the $7 Dollar ones. the farmer who chose your ideology over basic economic forces will go bankrupt the same year.

 

Instead of buying your strawberries at $7, why not each time you buy some $1 strawberries, you give an American of your choice the other $6. If you feel you want to pay more to keep other Americans wealthy you still can.

Better yet start your own strawberry farm. Bring justice to your society!
 

My bet is that just like our average shopper, when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, your mouth will keep flapping but your money will stay in your wallet.

 

Baff, I generally respect your opinion however...You live the in the U.K according to your profile. 

How the bloody hell do you know anything about what one is willing to do and not willing to do in the American work force at this time or even previously.. Especially when it is not your economy in the tank (though the u.k's is fairly bad).

How do you know what the average unskilled american worker is willing to do? Shit I'm a goddamned day trader/ advertising consultant and I'd take a cherry picking job right about now. Americans were doing it long before illegals, my grandmother and grandfather worked that way. They were white americans from upperclass families (my great grandfather was a judgle) they travelled across the US doing cherry picking LONG before illegals were here taking those jobs. Assuredly Americans will do the jobs at fair wage. Fair wage is not asking much. It's asking for a fair wage for a good honest days work. Thats the american dream in essence. 

While I understand why others may share that dream they have seriously %#@ed it up for the rest of us.

A thousand rats on a sinking ship is still a thousand rats on a sinking ship no matter if the ship were a cruise liner or a garbage barge.

Are you aware that farmers are given money to make up for their losses? Probably not. Otherwise you'd never of even began with food increases. The government helps out farmers for good reason. They are the HEART of the country. Food prices most likely would not sky rocket, a few more taxes here and there but skyrocketting food for proper wage labor in any case is not wrong. No in fact that is right, even if it did happen. Thats FAIR %#$@ING TRADE in action. Something every goddamned produce item tries to claim as.

Once again the Federal Government pays farmers for losses in any case. A fund that is gererally surplus at anyrate. Simply put illegals are creating a vaccuum in the economy, they are not spending here and thusly sending it home where it stimulates THEIR economy, yes they may but american goods here and there and yes their country probably has american goods being sold, however said goods are coming from other countries and thusly creating another vaccuum. Is economics that hard to understand?

They are assisting with creating a larger hole in an already infected wound. Let us , the people who live in this country and spend in this country try and repair some of the damage before we can assist others. Make no mistake the american economy is literally at critical mass. It's worse than a depression. America in general has different cultures where you go, and different economies.People in different states will work for different wages. I can name 5 people I personally know who are highly educated used to high wages, who will happily go day labor to feed their kids during this time, all in various states.

Also: Any farmer knows his crops will or will not yeild as last year as that is nature. They also can rely on the federal government for assistance. My uncle does this every year with cherries. It's worked for my family since the 50's.  While some years my uncle may only yeild a small $50,000 other years he may make 150,000 either way the government surpluses his losses and pats his back on his gains.

I've lived in the bay area.

With regards to the soup kitchens in SF, I've seen them. I've also seen the amount of field work available close by that they haven't all applied for. Not everyone has the kind of balls it takes to leave the city or chase down work or apply for reduced status work. Immigrants are not "your average starving worker", they are the ones with the get up and go to do whatever it takes to find work even if there is none available. There are plenty of Mexicans in lines at soup kitchens on Mexico who also are not willing to go anywhere and work for not very much either.

I simply don't agree that removing all the migrants suddenly ends unemployment en masse. It just means a load of jobs that used to get done, now won't. And the total money available to provide those kitchens will be less to boot because of it. Plus the food will cost more meaning less people in that queue will get any.

You say you'd take a cherry picking job right now, will you be willing to move for that job? Will you be willing to work illegally for less pay? If you are that kind of person, you will have no trouble getting a job. Or rather, you will have a lot more trouble than anyone else getting a job, but you will get one.

The difference between immigrant labour and you and your 5 friends is that they aren't "just saying" they want those jobs, they are chasing them to the ends of the world.They have the balls. Maybe you do too, but most people don't. In your grandfathers and grandmothers day there wasn't as much government support. Things have changed.

At the end of the tech bubble many of my friends lost their jobs around SF. I can only think of one who chose to work in the fields. He was an immigrant.
 

How do I know about America?

Every developed country has the same problem. The U.K.'s economy isn't in slightly better shape than the U.S.'s it's worse.

I know what the average American low paid/skilled worker is capable of and willing to do, because I know enough of them to know they behave exactly the same way in this regard as all the other low skilled low paid workers in all the other developed countries I know. 

What you might be discussing is an American problem, but it is in no way limited to only occouring in America.

 While government is a big part of farming (worldwide) it is still a very competative industry. Particularly in the era of supermarkets who have the market power to dictate prices. The margins in agriculture are very slim and your farmers also have to compete with foreign suppliers who are subsidised also.

Why not ask your uncle who may only earn 50,000 a year how much of that 50,000 he will be losing when the minimum wage goes up from $5 to $7 next year. 83 man hours a day that works out as. If he hires 10 people full time on his farm that increase will bankrupt him on the first bad year.

Originally posted by baff

If an illegal can live off $1 an hour, so can you. He is willing to, you are not.

Your idea of luxuries clearly aren't the same as your competitions are.

They live off such a small amount because they live in utter filth. They live in a one bedroom apartment with 15 others (check news results for related stories). So, if luxury is not living in an utter mess and starvation, then yes, quite a luxurious life I live.

$7/hr may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to most of the world that is a very well paid job. Enough to both live on and save a decent stake with.

No, it is not that much to me, but yes, it is to others. Yet, you think it is OK for an illegal labor pool to undercut this minimum wage - I do not.

Immigrants 

They are not immigrants. They are illegal aliens. They are not legally allowed to work in this country.

The government dictates the minimum wage. Not the market.

No shit. Thanks Captain Obvious.
 

Agricultural pay has never been traditionally high. The minimum wage was always higher than basic agricultural wages were here. When it came in it raised them accross the board.

It may have been lower across the pond, but over here is was a damned nice paying job. When I was in high school, minimum wage was just under $4.00/hr. I would work summers bailing hay for $8.00. There were plenty of farm job opportunities where I grew up. Farm jobs were the most sought after jobs compared to retail or service jobs. Now, that same job pays less than minimum wage to an illegal.

From 2007-2010 in the  U.S. minimum wage will go up by about $2. The price of strawberries however will not.

Worse than this, the market price of strawberries is totally different each year. The job is not worth the same price everytime and you can't predict what next years weather will be at the time of planting, let alone predict it for every strawberry farm worldwide. With your minimum wage and your idea's of what is a reasonable amount of money to be paid you are quite simply forcing marginal business to fold or break the law and hire illegals.

Nope, that's where cut backs occur, such as layoffs. The ones left over are damned happy they still have a job and work harder to make up for the loss. Same pay, a bit more work. It's like any other job. You work hard, you stay - the less productive get fired.

It seems farcical to me that you choose to imagine farmers as gluttonous fatcats rich off the profits of exploitating the poor when it is the small stakeholder farms your ideology is hell bent on destroying. Those small stakeholder business on tight margins just ekeing out enough for one family to live on....it's them that can't afford to play by the rules. Not the giant mega-corps.

See the above related post. Small business farmers are subsidized. And profit losses are tax deductable.

You would rather pay more for your food? Unfortunately although many other people say exactly the same as you, when faced with two identical punnets of strawberries next to each other in a supermarket, they will always buy the one that costs $1 over the one that costs $7. The fantasy ends right there.

In fact, knowing this the supermarkets won't even buy the $7 Dollar ones. the farmer who chose your ideology over basic economic forces will go bankrupt the same year.

This is where Farmer's Markets come to play. You find much better quality for a little more price than the crap you would find in the grocery store. And, don't attempt to tell me what I would and would not do - you have no clue. I am willing to pay the higher price when the quality is much better.

You're living in the fantasy land if you think all Americans want cheap crap.

 

Instead of buying your strawberries at $7, why not each time you buy some $1 strawberries, you give an American of your choice the other $6. If you feel you want to pay more to keep other Americans wealthy you still can.

Because they wouldn't have done a thing to earn the money. That would simply make me a practicing socialist.
 

My bet is that just like our average shopper, when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, your mouth will keep flapping but your money will stay in your wallet.

 Nice stereotyping.

Originally posted by baff

I've lived in the bay area.

With regards to the soup kitchens in SF, I've seen them. I've also seen the amount of field work available close by that they haven't all applied for. Not everyone has the kind of balls it takes to leave the city or chase down work or apply for reduced status work. Immigrants are not "your average starving worker", they are the ones with the get up and go to do whatever it takes to find work even if there is none available. There are plenty of Mexicans in lines at soup kitchens on Mexico who also are not willing to go anywhere and work for not very much either.

 

I simply don't agree that removing all the migrants suddenly ends unemployment en masse. It just means a load of jobs that used to get done, now won't. And the total money available to provide those kitchens will be less to boot because of it. Plus the food will cost more meaning less people in that queue will get any.

 

You say you'd take a cherry picking job right now, will you be willing to move for that job? Will you be willing to work illegally for less pay? If you are that kind of person, you will have no trouble getting a job. Or rather, you will have a lot more trouble than anyone else getting a job, but you will get one.

The difference between immigrant labour and you and your 5 friends is that they aren't "just saying" they want those jobs, they are chasing them to the ends of the world.They have the balls. Maybe you do too, but most people don't. In your grandfathers and grandmothers day there wasn't as much government support. Things have changed.

At the end of the tech bubble many of my friends lost their jobs around SF. I can only think of one who chose to work in the fields. He was an immigrant.
 

 

 

How do I know about America?

Every developed country has the same problem. The U.K.'s economy isn't in slightly better shape than the U.S.'s it's worse.

 

I know what the average American low paid/skilled worker is capable of and willing to do, because I know enough of them to know they behave exactly the same way in this regard as all the other low skilled low paid workers in all the other developed countries I know. 

What you might be discussing is an American problem, but it is in no way limited to only occouring in America.

 

 While government is a big part of farming (worldwide) it is still a very competative industry. Particularly in the era of supermarkets who have the market power to dictate prices. The margins in agriculture are very slim and your farmers also have to compete with foreign suppliers who are subsidised also.

Why not ask your uncle who may only earn 50,000 a year how much of that 50,000 he will be losing when the minimum wage goes up from $5 to $7 next year. 83 man hours a day that works out as. If he hires 10 people full time on his farm that increase will bankrupt him on the first bad year.

:)

Great then you know exactly where I am coming from on this issue.
 

The thing is, countries such as mexico take care of themselves. This is in terms of foreign aid and general mentality of the country it self. When was the last time mexico contributed to foreign aid (in terms of US/U.K/EU/CAN standards).

Exactly. No one can tell me mexico is terribly poor. It's one of the largest tourist attractions in the world. Certain areas in mexico look nicer than most cities in the USA.  There is a poor class, however there are also jobs for the poor class as well as engineers. I have spent my time in mexico, I speak from first party experience of "help wanted" signs. Problem is, the caste is stuck in the low caste. That's not our job to care about. They can survive in their own country long enough to become legal here. They spend more to do it fast than right. They may travel hella days to work but so do I. I would commute an average 200 mile total every day to get to my job, alot of americans do it every day. There are plenty of unskilled regional workers in every area. Every place in america (more so now than ever) has this around their food centers (farms). Thats just common sense. Why can't john get a job where pablo can? Blackmarket bs that is why. So that is right?

I'm pretty sure that falls under just planing #%@!ing wrong.

I completely understand the plight of the U.K, and I understand that the EU has pretty much ass raped the U.K into well hell, I don't know anymore. I know I never see a british product in the stores, so that helps understanding well the economy crisis you guys have at current. However my experience with the average labor pool, and living in a serious ghetto for a long time. Anyone will do anything as long as it's a fair rate for what is done. There are spoiled douche bags. Entitled scum bucket types. Agreed. Those people I detest more so than anyone. The same goes for what comes over. I understand wanting to help your family in coming or living in a better place. However it's too much now. There isn't enough for us+them. It has to really be one way or another, I consider LEGAL workers, be it foreign or not to be US, because they are. I respect a legal workers vastly more than a coyote hopper. Thats just me though.