For those of us lucky enough to experience the end-game portion of Everquest, we all know that indescribable feeling. Whether it be the feeling of the first time you fought Venril Sathir, saw the size of Mithaniel Marr, or finished your first epic quest, Everquest's immersion and gameplay set the bar for all MMORPGs to come. Sadly, with the release of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, Everquest lost a lot of subscribers, and continued to decline from there on. Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc.

Why does World of Warcraft continue to dominate the MMORPG market? My guess is because Blizzard kept World of Warcraft simple. Pretty much any computer today can run WoW with (more than) decent settings. Many people find computers somewhat intimidating. Purchasing a video card with specs good enough to run a specific game is hard enough when you know an average amount of computers. Nevertheless, installing said video card without calling the geek squad may seem an impossible task to many people. Additionally, most people don't want to spend $350 for a video card in addition to $50 just for the game.

So, with that in mind, when Everquest II and World of Warcraft were released in November 2004, with Everquest II requiring much better computer specs, it's obvious as to why WoW was able to surpass Everquest II in subscribers. It's almost as if 99% of game dev's dont realize that not everyone who plays video games has a computer that can run Crysis on the highest settings. Then they wonder why all their subscribers go back to WoW. Population of an MMO is also a big issue, because if theres a low population, people are going to leave. However, going back to computer specs, population is going to be deterred if the game requires an amazing computer.

My question is, provided Everquest's astonishing lore and gameplay, if SoE was to re-create Everquest with a new engine, which consisted of simple but beautiful graphics, (similar to what World of Warcraft has) Everquest's original gameplay style (With a few improvements, less grind, different quest system) do you think it would have the potential to give World of Warcraft a run for it's money?

Honestly? No.

If we resurrected Jimi Hendrix, would he top the billboard charts? Probably not - he was magnificent for his time and set the stage for millions of performers after him, but he just wouldn't fit in anymore, no matter how much nostalgia wishes him back and despite all the memories we have tied to him.

That's the way I see EverQuest. I've tried multiple times to re-visit it, but it wasn't the same. A lot of the grandeur you feel when you think of EverQuest is the 'first-time-round' experience, and if you go back and look at it it's quite frankly disappointing.

I don't think and EverQuest Revisted would give WoW a run for it's money - I think the only thing that will beat WoW is a truly innovative MMO that draws the best aspects from once great, failing games like EverQuest and puts a creative spin on them.

That's my thoughts, at least.

No.  I loved EQ in its day, but that ship has sailed.  I've never even bothered to try the Vetran's offer they send out to unsubscribed players, not even to log in on my old characters which I know are still there.

It is no secret that Blizzard catered to the greatest common denominator. That formula was used throughout their development cycle and the reason World of Warcraft is squarly entrenched in mediocrity.

Hardware specs in 2009 have no relevance on gaming. You can buy/build a quad-core computer with 4gb of ram for about $500 bucks. Even a 13 year old kid with a paper route can own a powerful computer.

World of Warcrafts success is solely due to the fact that Blizzard put the game on shelves in countries that other games just didn't market too.  Namely Asia...!

Apparently I emphasized too much on recreating Everquest that most of you missed the point.

a definite no.

Even if Elder Scrolls made a great new mmorpg- it would not have anywhere near 12m subscribers. You forget WoW has success in international areas that other games would have more restricted and confined success'. And then it would be a specific appeal in being rpg- it wouldn't have generalistic appeal that Blizzard aims for.

To even get 1m subscribers for any new p2p mmo is a considerable achievement.

Originally posted by squirrel117

For those of us lucky enough to experience the end-game portion of Everquest, we all know that indescribable feeling. Whether it be the feeling of the first time you fought Venril Sathir, saw the size of Mithaniel Marr, or finished your first epic quest, Everquest's immersion and gameplay set the bar for all MMORPGs to come. Sadly, with the release of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, Everquest lost a lot of subscribers, and continued to decline from there on. Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc. 

I've raided everything from Velious to Ashengate.

It's the maturity and intelligence of the average EQ player, the insight for strategy and commitment to the game, the size of the raids that made it possible to create raids and content which was so hard and difficult to do.

That isn't to say most wasn't just a grind, because most was and once you knew the strategy most became a grind but every single raid mob was discussed in guild and tweaked till it was perfect.

EQ couldn't compete with WoW because most people simply lack the skill or dedication to play Everquest. A 14 year old on their first Inktu'ta raid would set of every trap, ruin the raid, get kicked out of the guild, QQ and quit the game. WoW targets EVERYONE, and that makes the game so shallow, but accessible.

I no longer play EQ because SoE has ruined their games by adding the station exchange and the servers are nothing more than just a few players multiboxing accounts.

Nothing in everquest was ever beyond the grasp of a 14 year old... Sorry to make no contribution to the thread but it was always about already having already done the raid before and never that people went in knowing what they were doing the first time.

Originally posted by Carl132p

Nothing in everquest was ever beyond the grasp of a 14 year old... Sorry to make no contribution to the thread but it was always about already having already done the raid before and never that people went in knowing what they were doing the first time.

No, you are very wrong. I assume you never did hatchet without audio triggers, I assume you never tried to raid Queen, I assume you never tried 2 gods, I assume you never raided Vishimitar.

What guild were you in if I can ask?

I raided every single one of those mobs and got many server first. None of those mobs were easy and each and every one of them required at least 10 tries for us to even know the strategy.

I'm clueless about many games, but I know my EQ from Velious to TBS inside out and there were plenty of mobs we consistently wiped on on a daily basis, even the ones where we had a strategy.

Originally posted by squirrel117

For those of us lucky enough to experience the end-game portion of Everquest, we all know that indescribable feeling. Whether it be the feeling of the first time you fought Venril Sathir, saw the size of Mithaniel Marr, or finished your first epic quest, Everquest's immersion and gameplay set the bar for all MMORPGs to come. Sadly, with the release of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, Everquest lost a lot of subscribers, and continued to decline from there on. Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc.

Why does World of Warcraft continue to dominate the MMORPG market? My guess is because Blizzard kept World of Warcraft simple. Pretty much any computer today can run WoW with (more than) decent settings. Many people find computers somewhat intimidating. Purchasing a video card with specs good enough to run a specific game is hard enough when you know an average amount of computers. Nevertheless, installing said video card without calling the geek squad may seem an impossible task to many people. Additionally, most people don't want to spend $350 for a video card in addition to $50 just for the game.

So, with that in mind, when Everquest II and World of Warcraft were released in November 2004, with Everquest II requiring much better computer specs, it's obvious as to why WoW was able to surpass Everquest II in subscribers. It's almost as if 99% of game dev's dont realize that not everyone who plays video games has a computer that can run Crysis on the highest settings. Then they wonder why all their subscribers go back to WoW. Population of an MMO is also a big issue, because if theres a low population, people are going to leave. However, going back to computer specs, population is going to be deterred if the game requires an amazing computer.

My question is, provided Everquest's astonishing lore and gameplay, if SoE was to re-create Everquest with a new engine, which consisted of simple but beautiful graphics, (similar to what World of Warcraft has) Everquest's original gameplay style (With a few improvements, less grind, different quest system) do you think it would have the potential to give World of Warcraft a run for it's money?

 

 

First of all END GAME is the dumbest thing to rate a game on,it takes less effort to make instanced bosses than the regular game and is just that "end of game".playing for basically no purpose.

Specs had ZERO to do with players playing wow.First of all their initial 200k had never played WOW before ,so it was sheer marketing and players tired of EQ and of course the sudden influx of new high bandwidth gamers ,everyone was just getting high bandwidth at the time,so timing was amazingly beneficial.The Christmas release again helped a ton.BTW i posted a video in some other post ,and it shows how the Unreal engine can make great looking graphics from a special tech that utilizes both the high end version and low end version of the graphics.Great looks are possible ,if your staff has any ability,unreal is capable of utilizing millions of polys,and still maintain great playability,Blizard cannot do that rehashing their cheap old game engine.As a matter of fact UT99 utilized high res textures and was quite playable on extremely outdate gpu's,blizzard could have went that far and still not hurt anyone spec wise,so that rumour is all BS and is making excuses for a staff with a lack of skill and effort.

If Blizzard actually aimed their game towards less specs they would have went after the largest market at that time witch was Playstation,they did not and did not make there game based on specs.

What they DID do is copy Eq's game to the tee and made it with CHEAPER graphics because it was much easier/faster and would fit there god awful game engine,the ydid it to fit themselves,NOT the public.

Personally it's not so much the cheap game engine and grahics that bothers me,it is the fact they copied the game that really brought MMORPG's to the forefront,they could have put that gigantic budget,staff and studio to better use designing their own game?or do they not have the ability?Obviously they don't or they were afraid to try their own hand at design and went for the sure thing.

When you add it all up,the cheap graphics,the cheap game engine,copying another franchises game,what exactly did they spend there money and time doing?hanging out at dinner luncheons?lesser developers could have put that game out faster,and as it was Blizzard hurried their game up tremendously,to follow SOE releasing EQ2 ahead of schedule.

When you say potential to compete ,you did not specify any criteria ,as it is, the ONLY thing WOW competes with is MONEY!,the actual game/design was mastered by SOE and they win that battle.If Blizzard had designed their OWN game,i would probably have to give them credit for making a great game and garnering the subs ,a tough thing to do,but copying success,especially at that time was an easy out.It is now MUCH MUCH harder to just simply copy a game,because now more EXPECT better graphics,MORE people are knowledgable when comes to game design and their is far more choices in game play nowadays.At that time it was easy to fool a whole new wave of gamers ,with zero knowledge of design and no knowledge of other games,outside the consoles.

Look no further than Blizzards SC2,they have decided to go with shaders,WHY?obvious,even they know how cheap their WOW game was,and they are finally striving to achieve better things ,as well as perhaps flaunt their new game.As of now all Blizzard does is flaunt their numbers,pretty sad when you have no game to brag about ,only numbers.Because there is so many people with more design knowledge,Blizzard could never get away with lying to the public by trying to claim they have anything in their game worth bragging about.Quite amazing Blizzard still puts out FAKE scripted videos of WOW,is that Blizzards way of telling us we are still too stupid to see through it?

In the history of gaming WOW will go down as the EQ 1 1/2.the baby sister to EQ2,and you can bet your bottom dollar,Blizzard WILL make a better graphical game in their secret MMO[to save embarresment],unless it is just a rehash of diablo,then expect the same game engine ,same lack of effort as they continue to rehash and copy.

Originally posted by Waterlily

 

I've raided everything from Velious to Ashengate.

It's the maturity and intelligence of the average EQ player, the insight for strategy and commitment to the game, the size of the raids that made it possible to create raids and content which was so hard and difficult to do.

That isn't to say most wasn't just a grind, because most was and once you knew the strategy most became a grind but every single raid mob was discussed in guild and tweaked till it was perfect.

EQ couldn't compete with WoW because most people simply lack the skill or dedication to play Everquest. A 14 year old on their first Inktu'ta raid would set of every trap, ruin the raid, get kicked out of the guild, QQ and quit the game. WoW targets EVERYONE, and that makes the game so shallow, but accessible.

I no longer play EQ because SoE has ruined their games by adding the station exchange and the servers are nothing more than just a few players multiboxing accounts.

Yup I agree with you and the game was fun from Lvl one all the way to the end game, I had a full account of toons all of which were fun to play and enjoy the game with different tactics and trade skills too. The dedecation and team play in EQI was for me the best part of the game the whole community was a tight nit bunch of like minded people from all over the globe and would help at the drop of a hat.
 

Unlike games over the last few years the community has lost it's tightness and you have to work hard in many games to get folks to be part of a real guild. Now guilds demand you meet min spec unlike in EQI where you needed some skill rather than every purple item to make you raid ready.

For me it is the community and then the game which make an MMO and there are very few games with that feel of wanting to remain there to be part of imo. When a developer finds the magic which we used to have and develops around this we may see another brilliant game rise from the ahses, but until then I will continue to roam them until I find the holy grail, or die trying...

Bandit.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by squirrel117

For those of us lucky enough to experience the end-game portion of Everquest, we all know that indescribable feeling. Whether it be the feeling of the first time you fought Venril Sathir, saw the size of Mithaniel Marr, or finished your first epic quest, Everquest's immersion and gameplay set the bar for all MMORPGs to come. Sadly, with the release of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, Everquest lost a lot of subscribers, and continued to decline from there on. Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc.

Why does World of Warcraft continue to dominate the MMORPG market? My guess is because Blizzard kept World of Warcraft simple. Pretty much any computer today can run WoW with (more than) decent settings. Many people find computers somewhat intimidating. Purchasing a video card with specs good enough to run a specific game is hard enough when you know an average amount of computers. Nevertheless, installing said video card without calling the geek squad may seem an impossible task to many people. Additionally, most people don't want to spend $350 for a video card in addition to $50 just for the game.

So, with that in mind, when Everquest II and World of Warcraft were released in November 2004, with Everquest II requiring much better computer specs, it's obvious as to why WoW was able to surpass Everquest II in subscribers. It's almost as if 99% of game dev's dont realize that not everyone who plays video games has a computer that can run Crysis on the highest settings. Then they wonder why all their subscribers go back to WoW. Population of an MMO is also a big issue, because if theres a low population, people are going to leave. However, going back to computer specs, population is going to be deterred if the game requires an amazing computer.

My question is, provided Everquest's astonishing lore and gameplay, if SoE was to re-create Everquest with a new engine, which consisted of simple but beautiful graphics, (similar to what World of Warcraft has) Everquest's original gameplay style (With a few improvements, less grind, different quest system) do you think it would have the potential to give World of Warcraft a run for it's money?

 

 

First of all END GAME is the dumbest thing to rate a game on,it takes less effort to make instanced bosses than the regular game and is just that "end of game".playing for basically no purpose.

Specs had ZERO to do with players playing wow.First of all their initial 200k had never played WOW before ,so it was sheer marketing and players tired of EQ and of course the sudden influx of new high bandwidth gamers ,everyone was just getting high bandwidth at the time,so timing was amazingly beneficial.The Christmas release again helped a ton.BTW i posted a video in some other post ,and it shows how the Unreal engine can make great looking graphics from a special tech that utilizes both the high end version and low end version of the graphics.Great looks are possible ,if your staff has any ability,unreal is capable of utilizing millions of polys,and still maintain great playability,Blizard cannot do that rehashing their cheap old game engine.As a matter of fact UT99 utilized high res textures and was quite playable on extremely outdate gpu's,blizzard could have went that far and still not hurt anyone spec wise,so that rumour is all BS and is making excuses for a staff with a lack of skill and effort.

If Blizzard actually aimed their game towards less specs they would have went after the largest market at that time witch was Playstation,they did not and did not make there game based on specs.

What they DID do is copy Eq's game to the tee and made it with CHEAPER graphics because it was much easier/faster and would fit there god awful game engine,the ydid it to fit themselves,NOT the public.

Personally it's not so much the cheap game engine and grahics that bothers me,it is the fact they copied the game that really brought MMORPG's to the forefront,they could have put that gigantic budget,staff and studio to better use designing their own game?or do they not have the ability?Obviously they don't or they were afraid to try their own hand at design and went for the sure thing.

When you add it all up,the cheap graphics,the cheap game engine,copying another franchises game,what exactly did they spend there money and time doing?hanging out at dinner luncheons?lesser developers could have put that game out faster,and as it was Blizzard hurried their game up tremendously,to follow SOE releasing EQ2 ahead of schedule.

When you say potential to compete ,you did not specify any criteria ,as it is, the ONLY thing WOW competes with is MONEY!,the actual game/design was mastered by SOE and they win that battle.If Blizzard had designed their OWN game,i would probably have to give them credit for making a great game and garnering the subs ,a tough thing to do,but copying success,especially at that time was an easy out.It is now MUCH MUCH harder to just simply copy a game,because now more EXPECT better graphics,MORE people are knowledgable when comes to game design and their is far more choices in game play nowadays.At that time it was easy to fool a whole new wave of gamers ,with zero knowledge of design and no knowledge of other games,outside the consoles.

Look no further than Blizzards SC2,they have decided to go with shaders,WHY?obvious,even they know how cheap their WOW game was,and they are finally striving to achieve better things ,as well as perhaps flaunt their new game.As of now all Blizzard does is flaunt their numbers,pretty sad when you have no game to brag about ,only numbers.Because there is so many people with more design knowledge,Blizzard could never get away with lying to the public by trying to claim they have anything in their game worth bragging about.Quite amazing Blizzard still puts out FAKE scripted videos of WOW,is that Blizzards way of telling us we are still too stupid to see through it?

In the history of gaming WOW will go down as the EQ 1 1/2.the baby sister to EQ2,and you can bet your bottom dollar,Blizzard WILL make a better graphical game in their secret MMO[to save embarresment],unless it is just a rehash of diablo,then expect the same game engine ,same lack of effort as they continue to rehash and copy.

I always wonder why people talk about game engine and say that some are too old. Shows they dont know what they are talking about... which brings up the question, why are they talking then?

Any game engine worth a damn has been worked on for many years. You named Unreal - you do know the unreal engine has been worked on for over 10 years... right? 

That's the thing about companies that have their own engine... its THEIR ENGINE... they can make it do WHATEVER they want.

Any feature that any game engine you see out there... if they wanted to they could make the WoW engine do that.

People mostly praise AoC's graphics, you do know that AoC's engine was the same exact engine that made AO... right?

Source engine has been out forever as well, and made numerous games, and is still able to hang by modern day standards. Left 4 dead is I believe the 3rd or 4th sellnig game last month and has been selling loads over the holidays and its on an engine far older then WoW's engine. Are you going to knock that engine too?

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post... But if you dont know how to develop a game, you should not be talking about game engines. You shouldnt be talking about shaders either, if you dont know what they are, which is apparent from your wording and how you dont know WoW's support of shaders.

Originally posted by squirrel117

many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc.

Warhammer failed?

It has about 300k subs, The great everquest you are talking about had 300k after one year.

Many people tried it and left. Also, I referred to end-game because it was definitly one of Everquest's strongest attributes. God forbid I don't mention every little aspect of an MMO.

every mmo has something that will keep people and like the OP i understand what hes saying , but i think it would be best if we left it as is(as to i don't see it happening sadly), I for one would love to see old norrath with new graphics but same old system at heart well maybe its just me but I would buy it and play it since I still play the original everquest i enjoy what i pay for and i guess thats all that matters to some people although I will be honest i'm eagerly awaitng Star Wars:TOR.

A re-creation og EQ with a new engine would NOT compete with WoW. WoW is easy mode made to be playable by 12 year old kids. EQ was not. It required much more strategy to do raids in. The gameplay is very unforgiving and the grind insane. Specially with AA's introduced later on. If you took that away and replaced it it wouldn't be EQ anymore, you might as well call it something else.

I love EQ for what it was back then pre PoP expansion, but it just wouldn't fly with the average user. Exp loss, Corpse Retrieving, Trains you know all the things hardcore players like myself appreciated for the intensity and skill of play. If you sucked.. your advancement and rep would make you unable to play past the Crocs in South Ro.

The thing i hated about EQ was the fact only a small portion of people got to see the endgame content. The requirement to be in such a guild was equally insane. You would have to qualify past other people judged on your gear and stats. gear and stats you could only get from being in a top guild made endgame impossible for most. Everybody else was stuck doing mediocre content. The amount of ass kissing and brown nosing you needed to do to get in these guilds and raids made me give up on ever seeing that portion of the game. Then there is the lame system of DKP. Go on 20 raids get 1 item system. Fair or not this was the lamest thing ever introduced to a game. Punishing the casuals and rewarding the hard core players. Again only a very small part of the playerbase got rewarded.

If they made a new EQ i would play it for sure. But it would only appeal to the hard core crowd.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by Carl132p

Nothing in everquest was ever beyond the grasp of a 14 year old... Sorry to make no contribution to the thread but it was always about already having already done the raid before and never that people went in knowing what they were doing the first time.

 

No, you are very wrong. I assume you never did hatchet without audio triggers, I assume you never tried to raid Queen, I assume you never tried 2 gods, I assume you never raided Vishimitar.

What guild were you in if I can ask?

I raided every single one of those mobs and got many server first. None of those mobs were easy and each and every one of them required at least 10 tries for us to even know the strategy.

I'm clueless about many games, but I know my EQ from Velious to TBS inside out and there were plenty of mobs we consistently wiped on on a daily basis, even the ones where we had a strategy.

wow at least 10 attempts for strategy, then you surely didnt raid wow PRE TBC , aka vanilla.. ( reading tactics on the web , cuz someone did it last month doesnt count )

yes todays wow pve contant is sad and easy, yes today ppl quit and despair after harder achievements where they are wiping for 3 hours

they cancel raids, cuz its not worth wasting 4 hours, it wasnt always like that

i still remember the days in bwl, doing chromagus, cuz we got timelapse + acid for 4 weeks in a row.. doing that boss for month before killing.. 6-8 hours a day on weekends,  i remember first going to mc, fighting lucifron without clue what mc was, how to raid, or how to beat someone who cast a curse which kills you

i remmber doing ragnaros for long time

do i need to mention first bwl boss ( forgot name ) how many guilds were stuck for 2-3 months on it

c'thun 90% of raiders attemping him for month or two before killing

4 horsemen ( not current bullshit 1 shot version )

no wow pve wasnt easy.. i didnt play  eq2, so i cant compare, but if you think we had 14 years old raiding back in the days, your a wrong. .i was probably youngest in the guild back in the days.. im 22 now.. that made me 17-18 at those times,

now i can find those 16 years old in my same guild.. yes now its easy, it wasnt like that always , so stop bashing your easymode.. its boring already, its not pc specs that made wow >eq

wow been accesible by what 20 betas, for everyone who wanted, everyone loved game after beta, noone cared about eq2. what we knew about it.. oh its some fancy smancy game comming out sooner/later ,

we got onto wow, cuz we knew that game

cuz it was better, it was more polished.. few months later, we all knew how much eq2 blowed.. so it was lost cause by then..

Please dont say things that are not true. warhammer did not fail. It has 300k subs and increasing (Russia, Korea etc, expansion ext). Can EQ compete with Wow. Everquest was a good game but it cannot compete with Wow. Wow is too strong. Plus to beat Wow you must create a game that entices the US, Europe, China, Japan and Korea etc. If the game is not translated into multiple languages you will not even come close to Wow.

Originally posted by Smikis

no wow pve wasnt easy.. i didnt play  eq2, so i cant compare, but if you think we had 14 years old raiding back in the days, your a wrong. .i was probably youngest in the guild back in the days.. im 22 now.. that made me 17-18 at those times,

Well, we are talking about EQ1 here, unless we changed subjects. I don't deny there's some tough bosses in WoW, but I don't think many come close to Queen or Vishimitar type raids of EQ and a lot are much easier, but whatever, arguing how tough bosses were is pretty useless.

I don't like WoW because there's no limit to how far you can go when you lack the social skills needed to make your own group or raids. Anyone uncapable to make their own group, can just solo to lvl 80 in WoW. Anyone uncapable to lead a raid themselves can just join a raid guild in WoW and act as a backburner and pick up loot. 

Getting epics is a joke now in WoW and  so is EQ if a few friends help you out, so one isn't much better than the other now, but EQ up till TSS was pretty damn awesome.

I'm hoping Tera Online provides players with some challenge, it looks good so far but I said that about a lot of games. We'll see.

Originally posted by squirrel117

Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc.

Woah. Did Vanguard, Age of Conan and Warhammer really have to close down their servers?