Originally posted by Varking

Is this game going to be pay to play on the PS3 as well as PC? I am yet to find any use for my PS3 with the excepton of two or three games in the four or so years I have owned it.

You owned your PS3 for FOUR or so years? Guess you got the limited 2 years before it came out verison that no one else in the world got. If you cannot find any use for your PS3 then you probably cannot find a use for a spoon either, sad.

And to confirm that assumption, you also said "The same reason for all their games, the IP". Hrm, not to be a SOE fanboy but ... really?

Everquest, Everquest 2, Vanguard: SOH, Planetside, Pirates of the Burning Sea... never heard of any of those?

By the looks of it.  DC Universe has one thing better then Champions.  You can play villains at the start. 

Originally posted by Soki123

I personally can t wait for it. I really enjoyed COX games but really did miss the loot etc in it. Now with missions that conflict with the opposing side, thats awesome. I will try this at some point.

CoH and CoV both sucked imo.  To clunky.  However, I will never play a SoE product I don't care if they paid me.  

 I will swallow hard and give this game a shot.  It looks more and more interesting as stuff comes out. On the flip side,

It could just be along the lines of NEW from Sony  when it launches. ( i can't help myself, that was too funny).

YES!! A PvP and PvE Heroes and Villains MMO!! Awesome!

The more I see of this game the more sure I will at the least be waiting until it has been out for several months before buying it.

The problems I see are...

1. It is a SOE game.  SWG anyone?

2. It seems to be PvP centric.

3. PvE is a afterthought

4. Made for consoles and PC = Overly simple play for people used to PC games.

5. Console gamers tend to be MUCH ruder then PC gamers. Granted PvP PC gamers do try to give the console gamers a run for their money.

6. RMT

7. Twitch gaming more important then tactics.

The only good things I see are.

1. It's a super hero game.

2. It looks pretty

If you like PvP and like to play on a console. I can see why you would be looking forward to the game. But for the rest of us... We just have to hope Champions is going to be good.

Originally posted by Slackerboy

The more I see of this game the more sure I will at the least be waiting until it has been out for several months before buying it.

The problems I see are...

1. It is a SOE game.  SWG anyone?

2. It seems to be PvP centric.

3. PvE is a afterthought

4. Made for consoles and PC = Overly simple play for people used to PC games.

5. Console gamers tend to be MUCH ruder then PC gamers. Granted PvP PC gamers do try to give the console gamers a run for their money.

6. RMT

7. Twitch gaming more important then tactics.

 

The only good things I see are.

1. It's a super hero game.

2. It looks pretty

 

If you like PvP and like to play on a console. I can see why you would be looking forward to the game. But for the rest of us... We just have to hope Champions is going to be good.

DUDE PVE isn''t an after thought...for gods sake learn to read.

I have read, and every hands on I have read talks about how great the PvP is and how the PvE seems weak.

Listen to the storys coming out of the devs and its the same thing, they hype the PvP and say as little as they can about the PvE.

I am not saying that it is a fact that PvE is a afterthought. Just that is the way it is coming off. Heck Warhammer hyped their PvE more then DC is.

I will grant it is early to say it is dead because of a lack of PvE. But the devs are making sure the PvP is completed before spending serious time on PvE. That means when SOE forces them to ship the game early (And they will), the PvE will be what needs the most work.

Shrug. Who knows, maybe next week there will be a interview that changes my mind on this. But for now, the official sources sure make it look like a PvP game with PvE thrown in.

Thanks for the intial review it was a good read.  For those concerned about the nature of PvP consent etc., I wouldn't get too excited or disappointed just yet.  This is SOE, after all.  They have a long-standing pattern of changing things on the fly.  Some of the PvP sounds like the Temporary Enemy Flag (TEF) system in the StarWars game.  I loved that, and it was advertised prior to the game's release.  However, it wasn't long before SOE removed this from the game.

They also said that PvP would be purely consensual, but then later introduced forced (non-consenting) PvP on all jedi unlock characters.  If you were on the bounty hunting terminals, you wouldn't have a choice.

So, you never really know what you're going to get with Sony.  If you hear something you don't like, I suppose that could be good news.  If you hear something you do like, I wouldn't get too invested in it.

With SOE, I think a wait and see approach--coupled with not subscribing anywhere beyond 30 days due to their preference for surprise revamps--would be prudent.

I do hope they don't ruin another excellent IP.  Just the same, I'm glad I'm a Marvel fan :).

Originally posted by Slackerboy

The more I see of this game the more sure I will at the least be waiting until it has been out for several months before buying it.

The problems I see are...

1. It is a SOE game.  SWG anyone?

2. It seems to be PvP centric.

3. PvE is a afterthought

4. Made for consoles and PC = Overly simple play for people used to PC games.

5. Console gamers tend to be MUCH ruder then PC gamers. Granted PvP PC gamers do try to give the console gamers a run for their money.

6. RMT

7. Twitch gaming more important then tactics.

 

The only good things I see are.

1. It's a super hero game.

2. It looks pretty

 

If you like PvP and like to play on a console. I can see why you would be looking forward to the game. But for the rest of us... We just have to hope Champions is going to be good.

Hey welcome new guy. (No teasing intended here, really. ^^)

I am kinda split over these. It MIGHT be that bad, but most of those points are quite uncertain.

1. SOE made also good games. Like EQ2. And SWG had a long good time also, so I dont see that the chances with SOE are worse than with any other MMO company. Not really.

2 & 3. Yeah the apparent PVP focus sucks. I hope with PVE servers it means there is a lot of PVE content as well. I really wish they would go a bit to the "story" focus as SWTOR and in part LOTRO already did. But we have to see. Maybe its just overly emphazised with PVP and the real game isnt such PVE-light.

4. Simple for PC games? Didnt you mean simple for console gamers???

5. I never met console gamers in a MMO. Are they really??

6. RMT as it is atm with SOE is just neglectable. Did they really finally decide about DCU and RMT? I would guess the final form is yet to manifest.

7. Yeah I see that too, but in DCU and Champions. Not to my liking either, but again, it remains to be seen how it will be implemented.

I guess as DC fan I am biased, or its wishful thinking. Somehow I hope at least ONE of two superhero MMos will be good, but as luck is, maybe both will suck. :/ Lets hope not.

Also what ArcAngel3 said was right. Its SOE! They are known for not too hardcorish games, aiming for the all average joe (or all average Superman in this case). I just cant imagine a SOE game will be so totally out of the line of what they did before, not having quests and all being PVP/PK zerg. 

Originally posted by Samhael

Hmm. This article makes it sound like PvP is going to get forced down your throat.  Quite change from their original line from Chris Cao : "PvP will always be consensual. You'll either choose to play on a PvP server, opt-in to a PvP zone, or take egregious actions that will flag you for PvP."

No doubt! What are they thinking? Pre-alpha isn't the place where major concept changes should be made! By pre-alpha the game's mechanics, features and concepts should be an unmovable promise written in stone..../sarcasm off.

And so it begins......

I predict that as we draw nearer the release of this game, statements from pre-alpha like this are going to be taken as a 'promise' for the final product. The above quote will likely be used as a sign that "the developers lied to us".

Everyone one froths at the mouth over the development process, yet then act betrayed and hoodwinked when changes are made during the development process.

Pre-alpha concepts will always always morph into launch realities. Pre-Alpha is the starting point. The concepts. The big ideas. Those ideas often change dramatically as the game develops. The word 'develop' has change inherent in its meaning. Yet, so often, I see people post about the 'lies', rather than having the first clue about how things change in major complicated projects such as mmo development.

And why do major changes happen in this dev process? Maybe because they want the game to be fun. What if they noticed that the separation of pve and pvp made the game boring, unbalancable and a lot like other mmo's with the same construction (i.e. a WoW clone)? What if the change happened because the game wasn't fun under the original concept?

And to further.....this is a common neurotic theme I've seen on these forums:

gamers:  "We don't want another WoW clone"

devs: "Ok, we'll change quest structure to contain both pve and pvp elements"

gamers: "You lied to us - you said the game would seperate pve and pvp.

devs: "You mean like you had in WoW?".

gamers: I thought we told you we don't want a WoW clone.

devs: "Ok so, uh....."

----------------------------------------------------

Obviously I'm reading a lot into the post I quoted. On the surface, he is just noting a major change, rather than calling anyone a liar. "Forced down throats" does indicate he isn't happy about the change. And that's what I picked up on. There will be those that will use this as evidence to rail against broken promises made by developers, spreading and growing the perception that anything a develper says through the dynamic developmet period can never ever change without the label of 'fraud' thrown on.

Devs should just keep their big fat mouths shut. I have become convinced that the majority of gamers have never had to develop a major project of any type where they have to coordinate with a team and a boss holding the purse strings. Personally, I do this everyday. And I can assure everyone, that the 'alpha'  stage rarely looks at all like the 'launch' stage. Gamers simply cannot handle the dynamics that go on through the development of a project. And so....Devs should find a new way to market their games, because openning the window to the dev process is just letting in noxious fumes.

Wendsday?  What the hell is Wendsday?

Does anyone copy edit anymore?

Hmmm I never really paid much attention to this game but it does look pretty damn good. Its great to finally see online games moving away from the crappy old pure PvE game design. At last a game set in a persistant online world where I'm not playing purely against the computer. At last a game that doesnt prevent me from attacking and siding with players simply because it might hurt their delicate feelings. This is what REAL online gaming was always supposed to be about

I just read the Hands-on Report, and my first impression is that even for pvp it is quest based. Which as far as I know is kind of unique.

So I checked the website, and they do say there will be pve and pvp servers. So I would like to think that this hands-on was just the pvp server.

So for now I would say take a wait and see attitude. Lets see what happens the closer to release. Maybe it will be a pvp centric game, maybe not. Either way it seems like it can/will be an interesting game. One which I will be watching closely. Especially since I don't like the look of Champions Online.

Regarding the item mall stuff, it's quite a while yet before this game is due to be released.  Unless the game goes the "free to play"/item mall route, if it adds an item mall at all that they claim isn't unbalancing, it will probably follow whatever SOE's other games will have done.  If they steadily add more and more unbalancing stuff to the item malls in EQ2, etc., then they'll almost surely do the same to this game, even if it doesn't start out that way and even if they solemnly swear not to do so.  If they add nothing to the EQ2, etc. item malls in the year and some odd before this game releases, then a claim that they won't add an unbalancing item mall here would be a lot more credible.

Originally posted by Samhael

Hmm. This article makes it sound like PvP is going to get forced down your throat.  Quite change from their original line from Chris Cao : "PvP will always be consensual. You'll either choose to play on a PvP server, opt-in to a PvP zone, or take egregious actions that will flag you for PvP."

Stuff PvE! We've been seeing boring restrictive PvE games for years. Whats the bloody point in playing a game about heroes and villains fighting each other online with thousands of players if you cant actually fight against each other? To complain about it is just retarded 

Oh boo hoo that nasty player just killed me.......THATS THE WHOLE POINT!! LMAO!!

If you just want to fight against brain dead computer opponents then why bother playing competitive online games? That doesnt make any sense at all.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Samhael

Hmm. This article makes it sound like PvP is going to get forced down your throat.  Quite change from their original line from Chris Cao : "PvP will always be consensual. You'll either choose to play on a PvP server, opt-in to a PvP zone, or take egregious actions that will flag you for PvP."

 

No doubt! What are they thinking? Pre-alpha isn't the place where major concept changes should be made! By pre-alpha the game's mechanics, features and concepts should be an unmovable promise written in stone..../sarcasm off.

And so it begins......

I predict that as we draw nearer the release of this game, statements from pre-alpha like this are going to be taken as a 'promise' for the final product. The above quote will likely be used as a sign that "the developers lied to us".

Everyone one froths at the mouth over the development process, yet then act betrayed and hoodwinked when changes are made during the development process.

Pre-alpha concepts will always always morph into launch realities. Pre-Alpha is the starting point. The concepts. The big ideas. Those ideas often change dramatically as the game develops. The word 'develop' has change inherent in its meaning. Yet, so often, I see people post about the 'lies', rather than having the first clue about how things change in major complicated projects such as mmo development.

And why do major changes happen in this dev process? Maybe because they want the game to be fun. What if they noticed that the separation of pve and pvp made the game boring, unbalancable and a lot like other mmo's with the same construction (i.e. a WoW clone)? What if the change happened because the game wasn't fun under the original concept?

And to further.....this is a common neurotic theme I've seen on these forums:

gamers:  "We don't want another WoW clone"

devs: "Ok, we'll change quest structure to contain both pve and pvp elements"

gamers: "You lied to us - you said the game would seperate pve and pvp.

devs: "You mean like you had in WoW?".

gamers: I thought we told you we don't want a WoW clone.

devs: "Ok so, uh....."

----------------------------------------------------

Obviously I'm reading a lot into the post I quoted. On the surface, he is just noting a major change, rather than calling anyone a liar. "Forced down throats" does indicate he isn't happy about the change. And that's what I picked up on. There will be those that will use this as evidence to rail against broken promises made by developers, spreading and growing the perception that anything a develper says through the dynamic developmet period can never ever change without the label of 'fraud' thrown on.

Devs should just keep their big fat mouths shut. I have become convinced that the majority of gamers have never had to develop a major project of any type where they have to coordinate with a team and a boss holding the purse strings. Personally, I do this everyday. And I can assure everyone, that the 'alpha'  stage rarely looks at all like the 'launch' stage. Gamers simply cannot handle the dynamics that go on through the development of a project. And so....Devs should find a new way to market their games, because openning the window to the dev process is just letting in noxious fumes.

Absolutelt spot on! All of these emo whiners act as though they are involved in the creation process of these games.....as though they have invested their own time and money into them.

It seems pretty clear to me that online games need to move on from the single player game design that they have been stuck to for years. They need to take advantage of the fact that they are online and be truly different from single player games on multiplayer mode. This means allowing players to interact with each other properly and yes that means being able to attack each other within the contraints of the game. Gosh! Who would have thought such a thing could ever come to pass?! Online games where players can actually compete with each other? How shocking!

Its absolutely mind boggling that people are actually getting upset at the idea of being able to fight against other enemy players. Jesus bloody christ! Have you all really become so utterly brain washed by all the mmos of the past few years? You've all become so biased against ANY form of PvP due to the previous poor attempts at implementing it into games that were never designed for it in the first place. Now when games come along where the designers are giving us something new and building their games around the PvP idea everyone just moans about it.

I reckon developers should start focusing almost purely on making PvP focused games and then flood the market with them. Players would then give these new games a go (even the whiners would give it a try....they wouldnt be able to resist) and once they find out what a MASSIVE difference being able to actually interact with each other properly really makes they would actually start enjoying themselves and the whining will naturally fade away. They might actually remember how much fun playing against real people can actually be and would end up wondering why the hell they spent so many years playing against a computer with zero AI.

In other words the developers should not allow the whining gaming community to dictate what games they make. Instead they should simply make good games that take proper advantage of the fact that they are online. Then if players dont like fighting other players they can just go and play single player games on multiplayer mode instead. Problem solved.

Originally posted by neonwire
 

Absolutelt spot on! All of these emo whiners act as though they are involved in the creation process Its absolutely mind boggling that people are actually getting upset at the idea of being able to fight against other enemy players. Jesus bloody christ! Have you all really become so utterly brain washed by all the mmos of the past few years? You've all become so biased against ANY form of PvP due to the previous poor attempts at implementing it into games that were never designed for it in the first place. Now when games come along where the designers are giving us something new and building their games around the PvP idea everyone just moans about it.

I'm not intrinsically against PvP in an online game.  I am, however, against PvP that is badly implemented--and most MMORPGs with PvP do a terrible job of implementing it.  A contest of whoever is higher level wins is not interesting.  A contest of whoever has the best gear wins is not interesting.  A contest of whoever bought the most stuff from an item mall wins is not interesting.  A contest of whichever faction can get more players in the area wins is not interesting.  That rules out the PvP systems in most MMORPGs.

That's kind of like asserting that I'm not intrinsically opposed to item malls, but only opposed to item malls that unbalance a game.  Most of them do--and indeed, doing so is often the point of adding the item mall, in order to make buying stuff from it essential.  That makes a game having an item mall a major red flag, and something to look into carefully if considering the game.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Samhael

Hmm. This article makes it sound like PvP is going to get forced down your throat.  Quite change from their original line from Chris Cao : "PvP will always be consensual. You'll either choose to play on a PvP server, opt-in to a PvP zone, or take egregious actions that will flag you for PvP."

Stuff PvE! We've been seeing boring restrictive PvE games for years. Whats the bloody point in playing a game about heroes and villains fighting each other online with thousands of players if you cant actually fight against each other? To complain about it is just retarded 

Oh boo hoo that nasty player just killed me.......THATS THE WHOLE POINT!! LMAO!!

Wrong.  That's NOT the point.  The DC Universe is NOT some simplistic pk Fighting Game or pointless squad level Shooter.

Read the comix, watch the films - The Conflict isn't about a bunch of  fools running around ganking each other over and over and over again.

If that's what the game degenerates to, then it will be about as successful as Shadowbane.

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Samhael

Hmm. This article makes it sound like PvP is going to get forced down your throat.  Quite change from their original line from Chris Cao : "PvP will always be consensual. You'll either choose to play on a PvP server, opt-in to a PvP zone, or take egregious actions that will flag you for PvP."

Stuff PvE! We've been seeing boring restrictive PvE games for years. Whats the bloody point in playing a game about heroes and villains fighting each other online with thousands of players if you cant actually fight against each other? To complain about it is just retarded 

Oh boo hoo that nasty player just killed me.......THATS THE WHOLE POINT!! LMAO!!

Wrong.  That's NOT the point.  The DC Universe is NOT some simplistic pk Fighting Game or pointless squad level Shooter.

Read the comix, watch the films - The Conflict isn't about a bunch of  fools running around ganking each other over and over and over again.

If that's what the game degenerates to, then it will be about as successful as Shadowbane.

Well said! I mean, ok combat does have a big part in Superhero comics, both of DC and Marvel, the two biggest ones. If you read any of their comic series, its about so much more than combat! Ever since the 1970ies Superhero comics gained a LOT of depth and social topics, from racial question over drugs, women's rights, gay rights recently, political agenda of the Bush era, war on terror, the whole lot! It has for decades been a mirror of issues of society, and on a micro-agenda about the personal development of characters. Take the development of the various Green Lanterns as example. Sure, its still comic and no philosophical lecture, but compared to computer games, Superhero Comics have WAY more depths and complexity.

Yes there is a lot of fighting, but its so much more, and it would be a shame if the two Superhero MMos in development would be mere pew-pew-pew hamsterwheels. Many of the DC characters have so much story behind them, it would be a pity to waste it.

Originally posted by Elikal

 

If you read any of their comic series, its about so much more than combat! Ever since the 1970ies Superhero comics gained a LOT of depth and social topics, from racial question over drugs, women's rights, gay rights recently, political agenda of the Bush era, war on terror, the whole lot! It has for decades been a mirror of issues of society, and on a micro-agenda about the personal development of characters.

I don't think I've ever played a game and thought, you know, this game would be so much better if it were a lot more preachy and overbearing about pushing political correctness.  I'm a political junkie, but I'd much rather read about politics from knowledgeable pundits than, say, airhead celebrity idiots who haven't the slighest clue what they're talking about.  It's not likely that a game would hire people savvy enough to make the politics of a game anything other than obnoxious; the comic books I've seen sure didn't.

Originally posted by Slackerboy

The more I see of this game the more sure I will at the least be waiting until it has been out for several months before buying it.

The problems I see are...

1. It is a SOE game.  SWG anyone?

2. It seems to be PvP centric.

3. PvE is a afterthought

4. Made for consoles and PC = Overly simple play for people used to PC games.

5. Console gamers tend to be MUCH ruder then PC gamers. Granted PvP PC gamers do try to give the console gamers a run for their money.

6. RMT

7. Twitch gaming more important then tactics.

 

The only good things I see are.

1. It's a super hero game.

2. It looks pretty

 

If you like PvP and like to play on a console. I can see why you would be looking forward to the game. But for the rest of us... We just have to hope Champions is going to be good.

Yeah and 70% of statistics are wrong...

The animations are so poor that unless they get fixed before launch, the game wont be popular.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Martie

Lord have a mercy, this game just keeps sounding better and better.  Sweet mother of galactus everyoen to the pvp server for some good ol fasion herov villian pvp.  I cant wait for this game now.  champions online can suck monkeys balls for all I care.

 

Well Martie you might have too change your tune depending on how they handle the RMT.

Yep the big question will be will Sony manage to keep only non essential items in the time mall or will they start adding leveling aids like they have in EQ and EQ2.

Once leveling aids or other items that effect gameplay enter the item mall you will here a huge "clunk" as the playerbase leaves in droves.

So yeah sorry Martie, but Champions Online will probably be a much better game because it DOES NOT have an item mall.

It'll be interesting to see if this game has an item mall with performance enhancing items.  If it does, then the PvP emphasis makes sense from an SOE world-view.  The competitive nature of a PvP game will drive up the demand for performance enhancing items.  More real cash for Smed for nothing more than a temporary PvP buff--like he's already doing in the StarWars game.

My biggest problem with PvP [aside from the general feeling that it sucks] is that I don't want other people being able to dictate if I can finish my missions or not. Somebody else's $15 shouldn't dictate that my $15 should be spent in frustration. I don't want to be better at PvP. The people who enjoy PvP aren't even coming to the game as fans of the comics. They just want the latest PvP fix. The problem is that those are the people game developers cater to. Yet, those aren't the players who stay with a game. They're the ones who start a thread in the forums whining about their reasons for leaving a game! These developers are focusing on PvP as a way to not have to create more story. And that sucks. It's cheap. And it's not something worth $15 a month, to me.