Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

As far as what I quoted you on...you are dead wrong. Sony ruined it and admitted they ruined it not the loyal fanbase they alienated.


Secondly, any of those players who are pre-judging TOR before it comes out are morons. Most everyone I played with back in SWG is looking forward to giving TOR a try and hoping for the best..I hope it brings balance to the force...

People who say that SWG was an amazing game, a work of art(srsly?), and what not just totally confuse me. I played the game from the day of release until '06 and it was always buggy and things were always broken.

Don't get me wrong, I loved SWG because of the community. And it WAS the community that made it great, not the amazing clout of the developers. It's not as if they had divine inspiration when they made it. It was very much broken and buggy. Classes [professions, guiz] were horribly out of balance, and nearly each time they tried to repair that they ended up making one stronger than all of the others. So everyone and their mom went with the flavor of the month. I mean Commando had weapons that didn't even function correctly. I thought BHs had a raw deal but commando was like the red headed stepchild of SWG.

But on the subject at hand, I want TOR to be nothing like SWG except for a few of the more minor features. Housing, cantinas as a hangout spot, pets, vehicles, etc. All of that adds heaps to the community of a game. It gives them a way to feel attached to the game.

The Starwars Community should be happy we are getting an alternative to SWG. We all know the fate of SWG, and how it has been mismanaged. TOR is giving us a second chanse.

This thread fails.

---

Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the
players.

---

where do you people come up with this stuff. You pull these things out of thin air, literaly

Originally posted by aleos

where do you people come up with this stuff. You pull these things out of thin air, literaly

Thus why I plan to start  a movement that places the blame for the crapfest that SWG has become on Global Warming. Why not? It seems to get the blame for every hurricane, sunami, volcano eruption, and earthquake now.. we can expand it to other disasters not those just natural... like the economy and Rosie O'Donald.

Originally posted by torn51

Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

As far as what I quoted you on...you are dead wrong. Sony ruined it and admitted they ruined it not the loyal fanbase they alienated.


Secondly, any of those players who are pre-judging TOR before it comes out are morons. Most everyone I played with back in SWG is looking forward to giving TOR a try and hoping for the best..I hope it brings balance to the force...

Pretty much, just look here for

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by torn51

Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

As far as what I quoted you on...you are dead wrong. Sony ruined it and admitted they ruined it not the loyal fanbase they alienated.


Secondly, any of those players who are pre-judging TOR before it comes out are morons. Most everyone I played with back in SWG is looking forward to giving TOR a try and hoping for the best..I hope it brings balance to the force...

Pretty much, just look here for

proof

 

Thats really cool, hadn't seen that before. I tell you what, this game would be 100x better if I got to play with all the old Kauri natives again!

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by torn51

Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

As far as what I quoted you on...you are dead wrong. Sony ruined it and admitted they ruined it not the loyal fanbase they alienated.


Secondly, any of those players who are pre-judging TOR before it comes out are morons. Most everyone I played with back in SWG is looking forward to giving TOR a try and hoping for the best..I hope it brings balance to the force...

Pretty much, just look here for

proof

 

 

Thats really cool, hadn't seen that before. I tell you what, this game would be 100x better if I got to play with all the old Kauri natives again!

That thread is almost up to 200 posts alone. You should jump in and say hi.

www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by torn51

Originally posted by nanoviper

 The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

As far as what I quoted you on...you are dead wrong. Sony ruined it and admitted they ruined it not the loyal fanbase they alienated.


Secondly, any of those players who are pre-judging TOR before it comes out are morons. Most everyone I played with back in SWG is looking forward to giving TOR a try and hoping for the best..I hope it brings balance to the force...

Pretty much, just look here for

proof

 

 

Thats really cool, hadn't seen that before. I tell you what, this game would be 100x better if I got to play with all the old Kauri natives again!

Well, you won't get them all, hehe. Beta tester and Day 1 Kauri native here and I won't be there. All the same I hope you enjoy yourself.

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

I was going to read what you wrote but once you siad it was the players fault you lost all credibility. sorry

---

Originally posted by Bafucin
I hope there is a long hard quest or whatever to become a Jedi.

---

 
Why do people want Jedi to be be rare?  For SWG, rare Jedi made sense because it was rebellion era.  In the KOTOR series, Jedi and Sith are all over the place. In KOTOR 1 and 2, ALL the classes you choose from are Jedi classes.  Now, for their MMO, they'll probably expand things and let people make bounty hunters and droids and such, but they're certainly not going to deviate from KOTOR canon just because fans of the SWG concept of unlocking Jedi would like to see it.  Furthermore, the rare jedi concept FAILED in SWG and had to be reversed at a later point in time.

This is NOT SWG, and I am glad for it. SWG was just an EQ spinoff with a couple novelties from the SW universe thrown in at the last minute. Just like EQ, it was overrated from the start and was run into the ground at an early age by SOE. Part of the reason it failed was because people like me were playing KOTOR instead.

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

I'm an SWG vet and I hate SOE and I hate Lucas.  I assume TOR is gonna blow but I didn't really think about it or care, I just wasn't planning to play it. But after reading your post I hope it fails and I hope it fails because of whiny swg vets who ruin it for you.

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

Oh please.
 

The fans of the game were in no way responsible for what happened to SWG. It was the DEVS who had the power and made crappy decisions. THEY are the ones who get the blame, not the players. Had they been good at their jobs, had a vision and STUCK with that vision(plus fix the gazillion bugs in the game), ME and thousands others would still be playing it.

-It's no the players fault that bugs never got fixed\

-It's not the players fault that the game lagged almost EVERY FRIGGIN TIME I PLAYED

-It's not the players fault that every class in the game except for jedi was ignored.

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS broke their word on numerous occasions(limpet droids anyone?)

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS were rude,obnoxious douchebags who treated their playerbase like crap

-It wasn't the players that wanted twitch based combat

-It wasn't the players that demanded changes every few months that rendered our hard fought gear worthless

-It wasn't players that ruined the player economy

-It wasn't players that screwed the playerbase over by keeping the NGE a secret and not letting folks buying the new expansion know what was going on until the last minute

-It's not the player's fault that the game was changed to a WOW clone

You sound worse than some political lap dog who blames his constituents on his own short comings. That game failed because of gross incompetence by it's makers. Period. If TOR fails, it will be because no one likes it. WOW has flamers all the time yet that doesn't stop the millions from playing it. Every game has its detractors. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

there is nothing wrong with swg fans voicing their opinions.  obviously there are people that want a certain type of game and should be allowed to voice it.  that doesnt mean bioware is going to follow it, its up to them to make their game.  and there is no reason for you to let people kill TOR as you said.  just dont listen to them if you dont agree.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

I'm an SWG vet and I hate SOE and I hate Lucas.  I assume TOR is gonna blow but I didn't really think about it or care, I just wasn't planning to play it. But after reading your post I hope it fails and I hope it fails because of whiny swg vets who ruin it for you.

 

same here . i didnt really care about the game but now suddenly i feel my troll powers activating.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

Oh please.
 

The fans of the game were in no way responsible for what happened to SWG. It was the DEVS who had the power and made crappy decisions. THEY are the ones who get the blame, not the players. Had they been good at their jobs, had a vision and STUCK with that vision(plus fix the gazillion bugs in the game), ME and thousands others would still be playing it.

-It's no the players fault that bugs never got fixed\

-It's not the players fault that the game lagged almost EVERY FRIGGIN TIME I PLAYED

-It's not the players fault that every class in the game except for jedi was ignored.

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS broke their word on numerous occasions(limpet droids anyone?)

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS were rude,obnoxious douchebags who treated their playerbase like crap

-It wasn't the players that wanted twitch based combat

-It wasn't the players that demanded changes every few months that rendered our hard fought gear worthless

-It wasn't players that ruined the player economy

-It wasn't players that screwed the playerbase over by keeping the NGE a secret and not letting folks buying the new expansion know what was going on until the last minute

-It's not the player's fault that the game was changed to a WOW clone

You sound worse than some political lap dog who blames his constituents on his own short comings. That game failed because of gross incompetence by it's makers. Period. If TOR fails, it will be because no one likes it. WOW has flamers all the time yet that doesn't stop the millions from playing it. Every game has its detractors. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

He might sound that way, but you sound like someone who is still grinding a axe over a game that is dead. On the plus side, you have a lot of company over at the vet forums  a great place to discuss the best game that never was.

SWG fans aren't killing TOR, they are just passionate. They saw a lot of potential that was never truly realised and would love to see Bioware subvert this vision to the new SWG they envision. I doubt/hope Bioware takes them seriously. Any post I see that includes the term " I don't want SWTOR to be SWG2 but it would be nice if they could include...." goes to the beating a dead horse pile in my mind.

You know I used to hope this game would end up doing fine. But after seeing this guys post I hope it fails miserably.

Good day kind sir.

Who really cares what the jaded SWG vets say? They do nothing but continue to wax nostalgic over a game that never was as great as they seem to remember it being. For most of them it was their first MMO and like most people and their first MMO they tend to remember only the good times.

Despite what you might see on this sight there aren't a lot of them still around, so let them express their feelings, what happened to SWG was pretty shitty.

Originally posted by redhands123

You know I used to hope this game would end up doing fine. But after seeing this guys post I hope it fails miserably.

Good day kind sir.

Also a good point. I often wish that a innocent developer's game thunders in because I disagree with someone on a online discussion forum. Then again, I have a furnace in my house that runs off kittens.

Good day to you

Originally posted by hayes303

Originally posted by redhands123

You know I used to hope this game would end up doing fine. But after seeing this guys post I hope it fails miserably.

Good day kind sir.

 

Also a good point. I often wish that a innocent developer's game thunders in because I disagree with someone on a online discussion forum. Then again, I have a furnace in my house that runs off kittens.

Good day to you

MMORPG.com forums:  Proving that people will be insane for the sheer sake of being insane since 200X.
 

I have a love/hate thing for the SWG fans.  I love that some of them are Star Wars fans seeking a new and more genuine SW experience.  I love that some of them are trying to reach out to this new community of star wars MMORPGers.  I hate that they ever considered SWG to be a genuine star wars experience.  I hate that they compar SW:TOR  to the steaming pile of crap that was SWG.  I hate that they consider Rebellion era to be the only "true" Star Wars.  I think that some of them dwell on the past a little too much.

This is NOT SWG II in any sense of the word.  It's KOTOR III.  At no point has it ever been implied otherwise, and Bioware has taken grat steps to make this known.  None of the features that made SWG terrible are going to be here.  It's not sandbox.  It's an action/loot game with story quests.

How can you get some kind of idea what TOR is going to be like?  Play KOTOR 1, KOTOR 2, and Mass Effect, for starters. If you have a 55+ character in WOW, also try a Death Knight from levels 55-58 and stop, so you can see what a class-based story game is like for a few levels.  Keep in mind that TOR will be like this from level 1 to max.

If SWG fans don't grow up and realize that this is a totally unrelated IP with a completely different focus, then they are in for a world of hurt when they actrually load up the game.  When some of these SWG fanboys play TOR, (and see that it's only like 5% similar to SWG), I honestly think they will go into convulsions and die.  Hell, if they're going to be that closed-minded about the game, good riddance IMO.

Originally posted by courtsdad

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

 

I was going to read what you wrote but once you siad it was the players fault you lost all credibility. sorry

Agreed.  You sir (the OP) have obviously not played SWG since launch.  If you did you'd either be oblivious, or just plain dense not to know why we got mad.  The fact you had the nerve to say "we" the community screwed up SWG is a huge insult.  You should know SOE turns gold into shit by now, it's a trend they have with every game aside from EQ they host. 

However I am very excited about SWTOR.

Originally posted by hayes303

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by nanoviper

I just want to express my annoyance with the SWG fanboys as a whole, and their perpetual pessimism towards this game. The fact of the matter is SWG was a good game, it was complex and quite frankly a work of art as far as games go; But all to often it is forgotten who killed SWG; and hint, hint it wasn't Sony it was the players.                                                                                                                                                                                                             SWG was great and I have never found a better community of players (which is what caused the game to stay a float for so long), but it seems since the combat update everyone has forgotten all of it's problems. It seems as if none of your recall the class emblances, the credit duping, and the broken promisses for a plot that moved forward with the times and the events associtated with said events. If the game was as godly as some people made it out to be, the forums wouldn't have been as filled with thousands of unfullfilled threats of people quiting and leaving as there were during pre-cu. During the first few weeks of launch there was more hate on those forums then during the CU or even NGE. The fans of galaxies were the ones who jaded the game, they were the ones who brought upon the CU and then the NGE and the're the ones trying to sabotage TOR before its even released.

However, I digress, This is not a flame post, this is a post Begging the community to not judge this game before its released. No, this isn't a sandbox world, No, its certainly not a SWG2, but what it is, is an mmorpg built to entertain the inner starwars fan in all of us, and if its treated the same way SWG was when it was released, with critcism from day one, not taking even 5 minutes to marvel at and praise the developers for what they've accomplished, they'll tune us out, just as the devs at SOE had with the swg playerbase.

Oh please.
 

The fans of the game were in no way responsible for what happened to SWG. It was the DEVS who had the power and made crappy decisions. THEY are the ones who get the blame, not the players. Had they been good at their jobs, had a vision and STUCK with that vision(plus fix the gazillion bugs in the game), ME and thousands others would still be playing it.

-It's no the players fault that bugs never got fixed\

-It's not the players fault that the game lagged almost EVERY FRIGGIN TIME I PLAYED

-It's not the players fault that every class in the game except for jedi was ignored.

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS broke their word on numerous occasions(limpet droids anyone?)

-It's not the player's fault that the DEVS were rude,obnoxious douchebags who treated their playerbase like crap

-It wasn't the players that wanted twitch based combat

-It wasn't the players that demanded changes every few months that rendered our hard fought gear worthless

-It wasn't players that ruined the player economy

-It wasn't players that screwed the playerbase over by keeping the NGE a secret and not letting folks buying the new expansion know what was going on until the last minute

-It's not the player's fault that the game was changed to a WOW clone

You sound worse than some political lap dog who blames his constituents on his own short comings. That game failed because of gross incompetence by it's makers. Period. If TOR fails, it will be because no one likes it. WOW has flamers all the time yet that doesn't stop the millions from playing it. Every game has its detractors. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

 

He might sound that way, but you sound like someone who is still grinding a axe over a game that is dead. On the plus side, you have a lot of company over at the vet forums  a great place to discuss the best game that never was.

SWG fans aren't killing TOR, they are just passionate. They saw a lot of potential that was never truly realised and would love to see Bioware subvert this vision to the new SWG they envision. I doubt/hope Bioware takes them seriously. Any post I see that includes the term " I don't want SWTOR to be SWG2 but it would be nice if they could include...." goes to the beating a dead horse pile in my mind.

 I'm not grinding an axe, I'm simply responding to the absurd notion that it was the players fault for SWG failure. I'll be that way every time someone throws blame at a consumer than where it belongs. Consumers only buy the product. They might make suggestions, but it's the makers of the game that have final say on how the game will be. If the game fails, it's on them NOT the people who plucked down  money to play the game. I just don't get that sense of logic that says that it's somehow the players fault for a game's failure. Players don't make the games, developers do,

Far as SWG, I quit that game a long time ago and haven't looked back. I only talk about it when others bring it up.hence why I don't frequent any of their forums. I don't see any point of frequenting a forum for a game that I don't play.I could care less about that game other than I can't wait for this one to leave that other one in the dust.Bad business practices deserve nothing less than my ire.Doesn't matter if we are talking about a game company or an executive at ENRON. I'll stop talking about SWG when others quit bringing it up. So  direct your "Forums are that way" towards the person who started the subject, not the person who responded to it.
 

It's everyone's fault SWG ended up like it did, LEC, SOE for not listening to beta testers, the people who coded the engine, the people who came and went between 2003-2004, and the people who nagged on the forums everyday. It wasn't just one thing; it was a combination of things. The thing to keep in mind is SWG isn't our game anymore and most of the people who are playing it now are completely happy with it, cherub Ewoks and all.

1. Bioware arn't going to change the design of their game this far into development because all of that will be locked early on. They have their own goals and ideas set for the game and they don't want to create a SWG type game.

2. The game will launch and the average gamer doesn't care about what the few people who played SWG think just like all the people playing WoW don't care about all the mmorpg elitists who hate on it.

End of the day people play whats good and if ToR is good then people will play it.