SWG
WoW
and Eve Online

They all have elements that made them awesome. Sadly they have areas where they lack too...

Unfortunately I still haven't found that game

This is one of those things that wants me to have a kneejerk reaction and say... The NGE version of SWG.

However, to be totally honest... EverQuest.

Personally was a huge fan of Ultima Online and the basic design choices made there.  The direction that EQ went and what basicly became the "clone standard" for mmo mechanics was everything I never wanted in an MMO...  So ya.. EQ1.

I'd say Ultima Online as a good thing I liked, and Everquest as one I didn't like that every MMO following seemed to take all the crap I didn't like from. Ultimately though, you're all to blame.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

This is easy for me. SWG ruined the genre for me. Since it was destroyed I haven't been able to find the freedom, the depth, the complexity, and the community that made SWG so much better than any other game to date.

I agree with this.  SWG was my first mmo, got in like a year before the CU.  Almost quit cause I'd never played an mmo before and had absolutely no clue what I was doing, basically just grinding scout outside Coronet and not talking to anyone.  But then some nice Wookiee came up and started talking to me, showed me how the game worked, and eventually got me into the guild I would stay in until I quit after the NGE.  Sure, it was bugged, had more than its fair share of problems, but the complexity of character building, the amazing guild I had, and my guild hall player house that I spent hours upon hours decorating and building always made me feel like I had something to do when I logged on.  That just hasn't been the case with any mmo since then, and they inevitably start to feel like work, like it's just some chore I need to do.  I've never again felt happy to sit in a guild tavern chit chatting with guildies until 2am.

EVE almost did this for me too, but I never made the same kind of connections I had in SWG.  Too often it just felt like a solo game, which I'm sure was just the fact that I never seemed to find the right corp.

 Two MMos destroyed it for me.

Dark Age of Camelot. There hasn't been a game with the sheer level of awesome RvR as DAoC. No game since 2001 has done even half what DAoC did. 

And the second one is obvious, WoW, for making MMOs mainstream shallow money maker games like Halo.  WoW did nothing unique or new, and still hasn't, in the 5 years its been around it hasn't come up with a single unique feature. Its just a Borg or a parasite or something hideous. 

Not precisely any one specific game really hurt the genre for me... now there is a company that did though :P

SOE.  First with Everquest.... it set the stage for all of the middling tripe that has come out since.  Next was the butchery and azzrapery of SWG.  Here we had a game in the vein of the original pimpdaddy of all mmo's (UO) and they had to go and screw with it and try to turn it into another run of the mill, half assed, poorly handled mmo.

The title is a bit confusing, sounds like you wanted to know what game was bad.

The MMO which spoilt me was SWG. The vastness, the feeling to be in a real, alternative world not some damn theme park, the possibilities, citiy building, exploring and whatnot, and no the least the many non-combat things to do, there never was a MMO which entertained me like SWG.

For a while also EQ2, tho it was less of a world, it just gave people so many different things to do.

Despite all the anti-SOE bashing being fashion these days the two best MMO experiences by far were from SOE games.

WoW.

It ruined the MM part of it.

I know I know. People like to be able to log in for 6 and a half minutes and accomplish everything by themselves. But it takes out the community, people solo all the way to max then suck a ton in any groups etc.

SWG because of its open ended content.  Maybe WoW for its raids (i hardly got to play them and they seemed so fun).

For me the game that ruined me for all others is Everquest. I played on Rallos Zek, a pvp server. I like pve as well as pvp, but to me unless there is a constant threat of pvp, it is not only unrealistic, but it is not as exciting. To me realm vs realm, or race vs race pvp (such as in games like World of Warcraft isn’t really pvp. In Everquest the newbie zones were full of pvp.

World of Warcraft was such a let down in realm vs realm pvp you have to spend hours and hours just to high enough level to either go into battlegrounds to pvp or go into zones where “the enemy” is. Also you cannot communicate with “enemies”.

In Everquest, on Rallos Zek you could pvp as soon as you started right in your newbie zone against anyone within 4 levels (which was a lot of people). It’s so much more exciting when anyone can be a potential friend or foe. Also, in EQ, alliances meant so much more. It was far more social than games now. In EQ, actions carried consequences, now in most games nothing matters.

I remember the dark elf newbie zone, nektolos forest. The atmosphere was reminiscent of playground politics. There were always bullies and people getting picked on. Higher lvl friendlies were like older friends who would protect you on the playground. Bullies got bad reputations. And gaining levels was like getting older, getting in a higher grade and getting more respect and power.

I remember one particular guy who kept killing me repeatedly. I remember always trying to level in out of the way places that he wouldn’t find me. Then I remember one day when he no longer conned red to me. I went up and attacked him. AND I WON! That was the most memorable single moment in any MMORPG I have had to this day. In fact, I think that was the most memorable moment I’ve ever had in a video game in my whole life.

Sadly, the way pvp is set up in games like WoW, it seems that moments like those will never happen again.

I also liked how in EQ when you traveled you really felt like you were embarking on a long journey. I remember it could take almost an hour to travel to some places.

When you died you really felt loss. The world seemed huge and traveling to new areas actually caused a nervous sort of excitement. I know many people thought that death penalties were harsh in EQ and travel was slow. But without negative consequences, nothing seems to carry any tone of threat, hence no excitement. In WoW, everything seems so easy, and nothing has any real consequence. Therefore it’s just really hard to even get interested in it.

Also, one thing that a lot of people complained about in EQ was downtime. For spellcasters you had to look at your book and meditate to get back mana. But in EQ most of the time spent leveling was in groups of friends. EQ had a much more social focus. Between fights there would always be conversations with friends and the whole atmosphere just seemed far more social.

And here is one big thing that I like that it seems that nobody else likes. LEVELING. Leveling has been an intrinsic part of role playing games since the very beginning. I’ve been playing role playing games since the early 80s pen and paper role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. The key elements that set role-playing games apart from other games was open ended choices, no pre-set stories and most importantly CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The idea that successfully surviving adventures allowed you to learn newer more powerful spells or have more powerful melee attacks was part of the allure of role-playing. You start out playing a common person, and work your way up to a powerful hero.

With the popularity of video games, it was only a matter of time before rpgs crossed over. The first games that came out in the early 80s stayed true to the genre such as Ultima, Wizardry, Bard’s Tale and Might and Magic.

With the growing popularity of the internet, of course RPGs went online. So EQ is by no means the first game to feature leveling. And to real fans of RPGs, leveling is not something to be shunned anyway.

RPGs are not about non-stop action and never were. RPGs are about creating and developing a character and playing the game how you want. When you take away the development aspect you are taking away one of the crucial RPG elements. It sounds what most people want isn’t MMO RPGs but MMO action games. If that’s what you want fine, but don’t dumb-down the RPG genre by turning all the games into action-adventure games. There is already a genre for that.

As I said earlier gaining levels was something to look forward to. Just like higher grade kids on a playground were respected (or at least feared) more than younger kids. You gradually got to grow into your character and gain power bit by bit. Take all of that character development and gradual feel of growth and I might as well just be playing Quake.

Well that is my story/rant. I fear that with the current crop of games along with the current mentality of most gamers not liking the core elements of RPG that I most likely will never experience another game that lives up to Everquest.
 

Planetside for me. It was a fantastic game ruined by SOE not realizing how great it was. The epic feeling of the game was and still is unrivaled by anything I have ever played. Flying in a Liberator over hundreds of other players and watching the battle unfold beneath you is a totally unique experience that has quite literally taken my breath away once or twice.

Originally posted by Elikal

The title is a bit confusing, sounds like you wanted to know what game was bad.

The MMO which spoilt me was SWG. The vastness, the feeling to be in a real, alternative world not some damn theme park, the possibilities, citiy building, exploring and whatnot, and no the least the many non-combat things to do, there never was a MMO which entertained me like SWG.

For a while also EQ2, tho it was less of a world, it just gave people so many different things to do.

Despite all the anti-SOE bashing being fashion these days the two best MMO experiences by far were from SOE games.

The problem with SOE is they ruin all their mmorpgs and thats why people hate them.

1. UO. The fast-paced, skill-based PvP.

2. EQ. The sheer difficulty of survival and the need to learn the world like a real world , especially where I played (on the test server) where the population was small.

3. SWG. The community/player-based town/trade aspect of the game.

4. The early realm-based, mass PvP of DaoC.

I haven't seen a MMORPG since these quite "get it right".

Originally posted by metalhead980

When a new Mmo releases the majority of us put this new game up against mmos that we loved in the past.

If these games don't surpass or atleast equal those older games we rip them apart .

We are so hard on today's games that its almost impossible to enjoy anything new.

What I want to know is what game did you play that just totally messed up the genre for you?

Was it the harsh full loot world of UO? the open ended world of EQ or AC? Was it the fluid movement of WoW? The character building and community of Swg? The Massive factional Wars of DAoC? The feeling of true territorial conflict of Eve online?

What was the game and the feature that the newer games just can't live up to?

What game ruined it for you?

SWG and WOW; both good and bad.

SWG had great concepts and a decent foundation.  The problem was SOE/LA were completely unable to deliver.  From day 1 SWG was a heaping pile of stink. 

The lessons learned from SWG:  1.  Don't wait around on 'potential'., and 2.  MMOs can have great communities.  I'm still in touch with many of the folks I played with on Kettemoor.

Blizzard showed the genre that you could release a polished game.  So many studios try to mimic Blizzard's success without understanding why, instead they try to rehash the tired fantasy themepark.

Originally posted by Voorador

For me the game that ruined me for all others is Everquest. I played on Rallos Zek, a pvp server. I like pve as well as pvp, but to me unless there is a constant threat of pvp, it is not only unrealistic, but it is not as exciting. To me realm vs realm, or race vs race pvp (such as in games like World of Warcraft isn’t really pvp. In Everquest the newbie zones were full of pvp.

World of Warcraft was such a let down in realm vs realm pvp you have to spend hours and hours just to high enough level to either go into battlegrounds to pvp or go into zones where “the enemy” is. Also you cannot communicate with “enemies”.

In Everquest, on Rallos Zek you could pvp as soon as you started right in your newbie zone against anyone within 4 levels (which was a lot of people). It’s so much more exciting when anyone can be a potential friend or foe. Also, in EQ, alliances meant so much more. It was far more social than games now. In EQ, actions carried consequences, now in most games nothing matters.

I remember the dark elf newbie zone, nektolos forest. The atmosphere was reminiscent of playground politics. There were always bullies and people getting picked on. Higher lvl friendlies were like older friends who would protect you on the playground. Bullies got bad reputations. And gaining levels was like getting older, getting in a higher grade and getting more respect and power.

I remember one particular guy who kept killing me repeatedly. I remember always trying to level in out of the way places that he wouldn’t find me. Then I remember one day when he no longer conned red to me. I went up and attacked him. AND I WON! That was the most memorable single moment in any MMORPG I have had to this day. In fact, I think that was the most memorable moment I’ve ever had in a video game in my whole life.

Sadly, the way pvp is set up in games like WoW, it seems that moments like those will never happen again.

I also liked how in EQ when you traveled you really felt like you were embarking on a long journey. I remember it could take almost an hour to travel to some places.

When you died you really felt loss. The world seemed huge and traveling to new areas actually caused a nervous sort of excitement. I know many people thought that death penalties were harsh in EQ and travel was slow. But without negative consequences, nothing seems to carry any tone of threat, hence no excitement. In WoW, everything seems so easy, and nothing has any real consequence. Therefore it’s just really hard to even get interested in it.

Also, one thing that a lot of people complained about in EQ was downtime. For spellcasters you had to look at your book and meditate to get back mana. But in EQ most of the time spent leveling was in groups of friends. EQ had a much more social focus. Between fights there would always be conversations with friends and the whole atmosphere just seemed far more social.

And here is one big thing that I like that it seems that nobody else likes. LEVELING. Leveling has been an intrinsic part of role playing games since the very beginning. I’ve been playing role playing games since the early 80s pen and paper role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. The key elements that set role-playing games apart from other games was open ended choices, no pre-set stories and most importantly CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. The idea that successfully surviving adventures allowed you to learn newer more powerful spells or have more powerful melee attacks was part of the allure of role-playing. You start out playing a common person, and work your way up to a powerful hero.

With the popularity of video games, it was only a matter of time before rpgs crossed over. The first games that came out in the early 80s stayed true to the genre such as Ultima, Wizardry, Bard’s Tale and Might and Magic.

With the growing popularity of the internet, of course RPGs went online. So EQ is by no means the first game to feature leveling. And to real fans of RPGs, leveling is not something to be shunned anyway.

RPGs are not about non-stop action and never were. RPGs are about creating and developing a character and playing the game how you want. When you take away the development aspect you are taking away one of the crucial RPG elements. It sounds what most people want isn’t MMO RPGs but MMO action games. If that’s what you want fine, but don’t dumb-down the RPG genre by turning all the games into action-adventure games. There is already a genre for that.

As I said earlier gaining levels was something to look forward to. Just like higher grade kids on a playground were respected (or at least feared) more than younger kids. You gradually got to grow into your character and gain power bit by bit. Take all of that character development and gradual feel of growth and I might as well just be playing Quake.

Well that is my story/rant. I fear that with the current crop of games along with the current mentality of most gamers not liking the core elements of RPG that I most likely will never experience another game that lives up to Everquest.
 

 Everquest and DaoC both ruined it for me. Everquest the most

Beautifully put and i couldn't agree more. I played on Vallon Zek back before the expansion when there was item loot. When travelling you feared running into other players that they would kill you. If you needed to rest you needed to find a damn good hiding spot. If you got killed you had to run naked back to yoru corpse to get your items, hoping they weren't hanging around. Many disputes in groups could be solved just by killing your group member if he acted like a jerk. Then tell him to loot and scoot when he came back. Those were the times.

PvP today has zero consequences. It's all carebear stuff. I always get a good kick out of WoW players calling duels PvP. They haven't gotten the faintest clue what true PvP is. PvP is being paranoid when somebody approach you. Will he attack or buff me lol.

The game either on PvP servers or PvE was a very unforgiving game but it taught you to be a better player. Like you said your actions had consequences. If you were a bad player you would get a really bad reputation and nobody would group with you. People would be black listed across the server.

In games like WOW if a player joins your team and ninja loots an item then that's that. A week later nobody remembers his name. Shout he stole your teams goods and people will shout "who cares stop spamming!".

I also miss the importance of buffs. EQ had a LOT of buffs and great ones too. Clarity, Spirit of the Wolf, Swift like the wind. Buffs were very sought after to the point where you would pay a travelling enchanter,cleric,druid etc for buffs. DaoC understood the importance of buffs and added even more to it's arsenal. What does games like WoW have? Any class that can buff has between 1-3 buffs of lesser importance pr class. WoW has maybe 2 imortant buffs total. Fortitude and Whateverdruid buff. Rest is made up from potions and other crap

I  loved the many classes. Loved the holy trinity of classes too. There is a great satisfaction of making a class that is very much needed in groups. It gives you a sense of power. Today it seems games want a group to function no matter how it's set up. I can see how this makes things easier and reduces downtime or those that has an actual social life. It also takes away the uniqueness of your class. I prefer having a role to play nobody else can fill as goodl. DC universe with their stances sounds like utter crap to me.

Originally posted by metalhead980

When a new Mmo releases the majority of us put this new game up against mmos that we loved in the past.

If these games don't surpass or atleast equal those older games we rip them apart .

We are so hard on today's games that its almost impossible to enjoy anything new.

What I want to know is what game did you play that just totally messed up the genre for you?

Was it the harsh full loot world of UO? the open ended world of EQ or AC? Was it the fluid movement of WoW? The character building and community of Swg? The Massive factional Wars of DAoC? The feeling of true territorial conflict of Eve online?

What was the game and the feature that the newer games just can't live up to?

What game ruined it for you?

 

 

DAoC ruined it for me. I have never come across a game since that has been able to create a PvP experience quite like it. I played on both Lancelot RvR doing anything from Zerging to 8v8 and more specifically Mordred PvP.

Mordred for me has made every other MMOs PvP seem like childs play and nothing has come close since.

If it wern't for the fact that the server is literally dead, I'd still be playing it. Of course people will whine about its flaws (Stealth ganking, Buffbots, etc) but the game is still #1 in my books.

anarchy online.  i loved the complexity of character development.  with the myriad combination of implants, nanos, buffs, items, skills, perks, etc., i always felt like i was learning something new, and i always had some new goal in the game. 

every MMO since, with the exception of EVE, has seemed overly simple.

My first three MMOs were UO, DAoC and WoW and I loved playing each of them in their own way. I guess i'll be waiting a while yet for the game which combines the best elements of all three.

UO - I loved the skill system and just the sandbox nature of the entire game.

DAoC - Opened my eyes to the endless possibilities of RvR.

WoW - For polish and production values which have made every other MMO look amateurish in comparison.

But actually the MMO genre isn't messed up for me just yet. Perhaps it is because I have only played a handful of others.

The only MMO I regret playing is Vanguard and that simply because it was launched before it was even ready to leave Closed Beta. To me that is unacceptable even if it has become fairly commonplace. I think one of the best things that could happen to the MMO genre is if the MMO community stops apologising for games that are released prematurely and just puts them out of business immediately. It may deter some developers from from entering the market but those that do will ensure their product has a lot more quality than some of the tat we have seen recently.

Which brings me to my point. WoW often gets blamed for the current state of the genre but i think the fault rather lies with the rival developers and publishers. We've seen some staggering incompetence over the last few years: Games released before they were anywhere near ready, the whole SWG fiasco, poor development decisions (eg Turbine thinking that 'instance only' would make a great USP for DDO ).

Considering the number of MMOs that have been released since WoW I don't think many can even be regarded as decent games in their own right and only Eve Online has really moved the genre forward to any degree (and it was actually released some months before WoW). Eve is not my thing but at least CCP have proved that it's quite possible to produce an innovative and profitable MMO without a Blizzard-sized development and marketing budget.

As for the future, my hope is that some day Bethesda will make an Elder Scrolls MMO. Their commitment to high production values and a sandbox game style could result in something very special. And with a Kray supercomputer it should be perfectly playable on low settings  

I think WAR killed the genere for me. I just made me see exactly what i hate about MMOs, I hate the class system, i hate how you need to have Xtanks XDPS and Xhealers to for a competant or competive group, this is the same for most MMO's ofcourse. but I was playing WAR when i relised i hate it, I hate it that if my group does not have a healer online then their is no point in me loggin in. you generally cant have somebody login an alt or they willbe undergeared or something that gimps them further...or underleveled. 

Next i Hate open world pvp games with 2 factions, i finally released it with WAR, the 3rd faction adds a wildcard eliment can change the battle, breakup a stalmate...Its not 2 faction fighting back and foward allday., at the same location.

next i hate it how everything is based on level and gear FFS id like to see a game where a level 1 can kill a level 100 if hes a better player.

Perhaps MMORPG's just are not for me and im listing everything that makes an MMORPG a MMORPG ...

There isn't one for me. I'm still here playing them and looking for more. Heck i even frequent MMO forums :)

sure there are games that i dont like and also games that i wont touch, but there isnt a game that has ruined mmo's for me. I'm a big boy and would never let things get that far. on a side note i think my recent foray into LOTRO for a second try ( after only giving it a few days last time ) has actually brought back some old eq memorys...for instance i am wondering of exploring again just to see whats round the corner, and i dont feel the need just to level as fast as poss all the time, just like old eq :)

If you feel that an MMO has ruined the genre for you then i suggest you move on as that's generally called "burnout" Playing WOW now doesnt make me feel that all my years in old EQ were a waste! i still enjoyed it the same.