Originally posted by Resetgun

LOL, great graph, and i believe it is also true.

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Guillight

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Originally posted by cosy

 

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

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It's people like Cosy that cause EVE the bad repuation.

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dude wake up i give him a standard answer at a cry post about learning curve and natural selection in eve, seams you dont really saw that dont you
try harder next time

 

Ps: this thread is not why your gf dont play eve is about content for n00bs

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

Ironically, i found that Eve's early PvE to be too EASY. There is no challenge and no need to use anything but your standard weapons. The progression curve is just not calibrated properly. Heck, you die once in a while during the early levels of WOW if you pull the mobs wrong. That never happens in Eve in early missions and complexes.

That is not fun at all.

And yes, that waiting for skill thing needs to go. The reason why i am getting no where in my trial is that i have to wait for skills to build.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

HAHAHA, I laughed at that green part. Lets see some of my favorite games have a massively steep learning curve:

Classic Battletech: over 1700 pages of rules to learn so far and still not done, Insanely complex system, from infantry morale, to combat damage repair table including not fully fixing the problem, to how to handle a plane going out of control and crashing into the ground from orbit.

Warhammer fantasy/40k: 200 pages of rule each with massive amounts of complex rule interactions between wargear and units rules.

same can go with Flames of War, Warmachine, AT-40/Confrontation, and I'm sure a few more that I have missed.

In fact most of the games once you get past the the quote "Toys'R"Us" games are massively complex and have steap learning curves. The only thing that EVe does not have is an easy way to get players started on that learning curve, and its the only thing that CCP is doing in the next patch, putting a little bit of dirt to the bottom of the Cliff so that you can gain a few feet before you have to start climbing.

Games will only not have a steep learning curve if the game decides to dumb itself down to the point where you can understand everything in a very short time. The more games take into effect more things the more complex they will be and the steeper that the learning curve must be if you want to get up to speed with the vets knowledge of the game system.

Please stop bringing PVE into a discussion about EVE Nariusseldon, We've went over that numerous times, though to be honest PVE in all MMOs is about as exciting as watching paint dry, Figure script out for boss, figure counter tactic for group, Farm boss. Lets be honest till they put a player/GM/Volunteer in control of that boss PVE isn't really that great. You can die early on in EVE just as easily as WoW if you screw up your aggro in missions. Done it many of times, and just like WoW once you learn the patterns and tricks everything becomes just another farmable target.

Ironically the most difficult PVE experience I ever had was LoTRO when fighting player controlled mosters, they don't follow a script that you can analyze and defeat easily. Get out and try some PVP, as soon as possible, don't wait for X skill to train it more and likely won't help you anyway because the first fight you get into you won't have a clue what hit you, or how it did. You'll have to get up to speed on the 100+ ships and the 100+ module types and thier strength weaknesses and interactions.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

LOL .. we are talking about a GAME here. Games should NOT have steep learning curves. It is not teaching people to do math or anything like that. It is painfully OBVIOUS that CCP knows this is a problem and is trying to solve it in the next patch.

 

HAHAHA, I laughed at that green part. Lets see some of my favorite games have a massively steep learning curve:

Classic Battletech: over 1700 pages of rules to learn so far and still not done, Insanely complex system, from infantry morale, to combat damage repair table including not fully fixing the problem, to how to handle a plane going out of control and crashing into the ground from orbit.

Warhammer fantasy/40k: 200 pages of rule each with massive amounts of complex rule interactions between wargear and units rules.

same can go with Flames of War, Warmachine, AT-40/Confrontation, and I'm sure a few more that I have missed.

In fact most of the games once you get past the the quote "Toys'R"Us" games are massively complex and have steap learning curves. The only thing that EVe does not have is an easy way to get players started on that learning curve, and its the only thing that CCP is doing in the next patch, putting a little bit of dirt to the bottom of the Cliff so that you can gain a few feet before you have to start climbing.

Games will only not have a steep learning curve if the game decides to dumb itself down to the point where you can understand everything in a very short time. The more games take into effect more things the more complex they will be and the steeper that the learning curve must be if you want to get up to speed with the vets knowledge of the game system.

Please stop bringing PVE into a discussion about EVE Nariusseldon, We've went over that numerous times, though to be honest PVE in all MMOs is about as exciting as watching paint dry, Figure script out for boss, figure counter tactic for group, Farm boss. Lets be honest till they put a player/GM/Volunteer in control of that boss PVE isn't really that great. You can die early on in EVE just as easily as WoW if you screw up your aggro in missions. Done it many of times, and just like WoW once you learn the patterns and tricks everything becomes just another farmable target.

Ironically the most difficult PVE experience I ever had was LoTRO when fighting player controlled mosters, they don't follow a script that you can analyze and defeat easily. Get out and try some PVP, as soon as possible, don't wait for X skill to train it more and likely won't help you anyway because the first fight you get into you won't have a clue what hit you, or how it did. You'll have to get up to speed on the 100+ ships and the 100+ module types and thier strength weaknesses and interactions.

No wonder no games you mentioned are popular beyond niche. Something like Halo 3 you can just jump in and play is way more entertaining than those you mentioned, and much easier to get into.

And oh, it is a free world so i bring up whatever i want to bring up.

Plus, CCP has open the door for PvE discussion when they try to improve the PvE side of things, evidently in their press releases. Are you saying you don't care about what they are doing?

YOU don't like PvE does not mean that others don't. In fact, people who like PvE probably outnumber you 100 to 1. And luckily, developers are not like you .. they actually pay attention to players and what they find fun.

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

Oh you know this thread is decent now.

Elsa tossed in his same old "Pve server" comment.

lol

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are concidered cannon fodder or a source of incom to corperations. Unless or untill a pve server is added this will continue.

 

Oh you know this thread is decent now.

Elsa tossed in his same old "Pve server" comment.

lol

no doubt, EVE is saved.

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

ok, let's try this...

1 do NOT load a freighter down with billions of isk and afk fly from point A to point B

2 have your 1 person corp join an alliance, preferably an industrial-based alliance, or just make an alliance yourself.

3 do not leave high sec

and there you have your pve server, already in place.   you just have to play semi-intelligently.  if you play stupidly, yeah, you'll die, pvp or pve.

edit for 2 - or join/stay in an npc corp.

honestly, what other pvp-free play are you looking for, within the confines of the new eden universe?  if you choose the player alliance, you can even have (relatively safe) POS.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

Did you really just say this BoB / Goon thing is gonna hurt CCP ? Really ? Man you gotta be kidding me this is bringing new players to the game, not driving them away.

I'll say you are full of shit about how new folks are treated. New players in Eve are treated the same or better than new players in any other game. You say new players are cannon fodder or source of income, this is true in any mmo. Guilds recruit players that will help them progress, this is especially true when it comes to classes that are badly needed like healers. Ive played healers in other mmos and let me tell you that people shit all over healers. The difference here is that when I new player gets blown up they run off and cry and blame CCP for being mean and the game is full of griefers. Ive seen so many players hand over money to new players and help them out. The only thing that the older players like myself ask is that the new player be patient with the game and show willingness to listen and learn. This is not WoW or some other lame ass levelling treadmill game where people can be power levelled or twinked out. Ive seen more asshole twinked out douchebags in WoW talking complete shit to new players and calling them n00bs and saying l2play and all those other bullshit internet catch phrases.

So yeah, Elsa you are full of shit and you will never see your stupid fucking pve server.

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

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Originally posted by Elsabolts
Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

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you know, TQ is already PVE also. You stay in the rookie corp and you can kill NPC and run mission all day and as long as you please. Then once you grow balls and want to really play the game, you leave that corp and join the real fight. There is no need for ANOTHER Eve Server....

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

 

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

 

Umm, have you tried the tutorial ? I actually just did it yesterday for something to do and it's actually quite good now. It teaches you the basics of the game and then you just have to consider the rest of your game time a tutorial. Been playing on and off since beta and there's still stuff I am learning in the game.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by cosy

 

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Originally posted by Kexin
The learning skill is grossly overpowered and need to die. It is unfun, and BORING. There's nothing worst than having a hundred people tell you in rookie chat to max your learning which can take up to a week, when as a new player you should be training more exciting skills to get you into the game.
As for general improvements to the game, I have no idea where to start. The game is so utterly brutal on noobs like myself that it remind me of the History Channel show on the Spartans and how they throw unworthy babies off a cliff. But even that is too carebare compared to EvE.

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go and play wow

 

A steep and long learning curve, doesnt mean it cant have a decent tutorial that tells you about the basics.  Itll make the trial more efficient in recruiting new subs. No need to be elitist about it.

 

 

Umm, have you tried the tutorial ? I actually just did it yesterday for something to do and it's actually quite good now. It teaches you the basics of the game and then you just have to consider the rest of your game time a tutorial. Been playing on and off since beta and there's still stuff I am learning in the game.

Then y is CCP trying to create a new "new user experience"? Obviously it is not good enough. During my trial, i found the tutorial useful/clear but EXTREMELY boring. They should learn from how other PvE centric games do it. Make it a fun quest line is the best way to go.

First off did I say that the tutorial is perfect ? No, no I didn't. Second off of course it's boring. It's a TUTORIAL.

"They should learn from how other PvE centric games do it."
Did you even read this after you typed it ? key word in there is PVE. Eve is a PVP game so why would they look at a PVE game and copy their tutorial system ? All those other games are so simple you don't even need a damn tutorial to learn how to play anyways. Eves tutorial is far beyond anyone elses that I have seen.

Bascially what i'm getting from you is that you are one of these people that ex[ect CCP to shoehorn a simple PVE games tutorial system into the most complex game on the market. Yeah ok that's really gonna work. let me guess you probably think that the customer is always right too dont you ?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Make it a fun quest line is the best way to go.

is not the best thing for a sanbox game you must take your own decisions not just follow "orders" from the game .

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Ahh common guys smile alittle will ya. This stuff over BOB is gonna hurt em more then me saying they need a pve server. I did notice you did not say i was full of shit about how new folks are treated though.

LOL. making a PVE EVE server is like making a Warhammer PVE server. It would just suck. And "this stuff over BOB" is amazing PR for EVE. Lol i know plenty of people are looking at EVE more now because of it, and i myself have come to give it another try because i'm just a sucker for mmog politics.

Originally posted by Elsabolts

I guess a nice way to answer the question asked would be to say most new folks to Eve are considered cannon fodder or a source of income to corporations. Unless or until a pve server is added this will continue.

Keep the dream alive man, never give up hope. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

You see, you think becaues you are new you are a source of income. EVERYONE in Eve is a source of income. There's no discrimination between old and new players. Do you understand this yet ?

You are only cannon fodder if you choose to be or you are just too damn stupid to think.

For gods sake man learn to spell a little better please. I fixed your mistakes and highlighted them for you so that maybe you can learn. I highly doubt it though

Lordmokus your welcoms and tanks fur da hlep.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

First off did I say that the tutorial is perfect ? No, no I didn't. Second off of course it's boring. It's a TUTORIAL.

"They should learn from how other PvE centric games do it."
Did you even read this after you typed it ? key word in there is PVE. Eve is a PVP game so why would they look at a PVE game and copy their tutorial system ? All those other games are so simple you don't even need a damn tutorial to learn how to play anyways. Eves tutorial is far beyond anyone elses that I have seen.

Bascially what i'm getting from you is that you are one of these people that ex[ect CCP to shoehorn a simple PVE games tutorial system into the most complex game on the market. Yeah ok that's really gonna work. let me guess you probably think that the customer is always right too dont you ?

EVE is not that complex at the beginning. I dunno y everyone thinks that it is the most complex game out there. It is extremely simple to maneuver your ship and it does not take a genius to try some different load outs.

What i expect is that the tutorial should be done with fun quests. Is it that hard to give a player different equipment, send him out to space and have him use it to different enemies? I don't see why this won't work.

And whatever they have right now is clearly not working very well, why not try something else?

And yes, i expect a game will entertain me. There are plenty of games out there that there is no point for me to play anything that does not entertain from the beginning.

Eves complexity lies within its depth, perhaps overwhleming is a more appropriate word. There is just so many things to think about and so many things on screen it be sensory overload at first to people. Eves difficulty lies with the games depth and overall complexity dues to massive ammounts of information. Sure making a setup is second nature now but at first when you were trying to learn what every module was and how they work exactly it gets very overwhelming.

The tutorial has quests that teach you to learn the basics of the game and they are easy enough for a new player. I don't think they are any less fun than a traditional starter quest series in other mmos. It is true that Eves pve is lacking and no one will ever deny that at all, it's just that the game is pvp centric and that is how the game works.

You say the system isn't working. Please show me how or why it isn't. Eves population is always growing and just hit 51,600 so they must be doing something right don't you think ?

If Eve doesn't entertain you then maybe it isn't the game for you and that's ok. Eve is a niche market game and its why its still around and doing well. Eve also can be an aquired taste, many players leave and come back several times before finally staying.

Personally I am willing to sacrifice a little fun in the early stages of a game during that learning phase for long term playability. After close to 30 years of gaming all other games out there with a couple of exceptions are the same old same old for me. Eve is a game where I am still learning something all the time after 5 years.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Eves complexity lies within its depth, perhaps overwhleming is a more appropriate word. There is just so many things to think about and so many things on screen it be sensory overload at first to people. Eves difficulty lies with the games depth and overall complexity dues to massive ammounts of information. Sure making a setup is second nature now but at first when you were trying to learn what every module was and how they work exactly it gets very overwhelming.

The tutorial has quests that teach you to learn the basics of the game and they are easy enough for a new player. I don't think they are any less fun than a traditional starter quest series in other mmos. It is true that Eves pve is lacking and no one will ever deny that at all, it's just that the game is pvp centric and that is how the game works.

You say the system isn't working. Please show me how or why it isn't. Eves population is always growing and just hit 51,600 so they must be doing something right don't you think ?

If Eve doesn't entertain you then maybe it isn't the game for you and that's ok. Eve is a niche market game and its why its still around and doing well. Eve also can be an aquired taste, many players leave and come back several times before finally staying.

Personally I am willing to sacrifice a little fun in the early stages of a game during that learning phase for long term playability. After close to 30 years of gaming all other games out there with a couple of exceptions are the same old same old for me. Eve is a game where I am still learning something all the time after 5 years.

I said the tutorial is not "working well". There is a difference between that and "not working". It gets the info across but it is a) too much reading, b) not fun enough. For a polished game with depth like Eve, getting only a quarter of million subscribers is obvious not a good thing.

You said " many players leave and come back several times before finally staying" is exactly pointing out the problem. There is a good game underneath BUT it fails to grab new players right away.

You said "Personally I am willing to sacrifice a little fun in the early stages of a game during that learning phase for long term playability". Obviously 90% of the players are not wiling to do that and this is a designed flaw. There is no reason why games cannot be fun from the start.

Plus, i don't think "long term playability" is a big deal. There are enough games out there that once i exhaust the content of ONE game, i can always move to the next. So it is more important to have fun content up front. Plus,i don't know about u, personally i never want to play *one* game for 5+ years. May be coming back after an expansion is ok .. but day in and day out for 5 years? no thanks!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Eves complexity lies within its depth, perhaps overwhleming is a more appropriate word. There is just so many things to think about and so many things on screen it be sensory overload at first to people. Eves difficulty lies with the games depth and overall complexity dues to massive ammounts of information. Sure making a setup is second nature now but at first when you were trying to learn what every module was and how they work exactly it gets very overwhelming.

The tutorial has quests that teach you to learn the basics of the game and they are easy enough for a new player. I don't think they are any less fun than a traditional starter quest series in other mmos. It is true that Eves pve is lacking and no one will ever deny that at all, it's just that the game is pvp centric and that is how the game works.

You say the system isn't working. Please show me how or why it isn't. Eves population is always growing and just hit 51,600 so they must be doing something right don't you think ?

If Eve doesn't entertain you then maybe it isn't the game for you and that's ok. Eve is a niche market game and its why its still around and doing well. Eve also can be an aquired taste, many players leave and come back several times before finally staying.

Personally I am willing to sacrifice a little fun in the early stages of a game during that learning phase for long term playability. After close to 30 years of gaming all other games out there with a couple of exceptions are the same old same old for me. Eve is a game where I am still learning something all the time after 5 years.

 

I said the tutorial is not "working well". There is a difference between that and "not working". It gets the info across but it is a) too much reading, b) not fun enough. For a polished game with depth like Eve, getting only a quarter of million subscribers is obvious not a good thing.

You said " many players leave and come back several times before finally staying" is exactly pointing out the problem. There is a good game underneath BUT it fails to grab new players right away.

You said "Personally I am willing to sacrifice a little fun in the early stages of a game during that learning phase for long term playability". Obviously 90% of the players are not wiling to do that and this is a designed flaw. There is no reason why games cannot be fun from the start.

Plus, i don't think "long term playability" is a big deal. There are enough games out there that once i exhaust the content of ONE game, i can always move to the next. So it is more important to have fun content up front. Plus,i don't know about u, personally i never want to play *one* game for 5+ years. May be coming back after an expansion is ok .. but day in and day out for 5 years? no thanks!

 

 

The tutorial works quite well. Sure there's a lot of reading but that's because there's so much to learn. I don't really know what you would like done to the tutorial to be more fun.

Yes many players leave and come back. I don't see them leaving at all a bad thing really as long as they come back of course. You are right in that it doesn't immediately grab new players, well some people it does but not many. But once it gets someone they sure hold on don't they ? Just becasue Eve doesn't have the numbers of WoW that doesn't mean it should change to be like WoW or any other game either.

Why is this a flawed mechanic ? It's not even a mechanic at all. It's just a fact of life in the game. There's a lot to learn and it takes time to learn it. If I want a simple no learning game i'll play any of the first person shooters or flash games out there. I play Eve because it stimulates the brain and holds my interest where 95% of all other games out there today do not. This isn't to say those games are bad, I am just saying they don't appeal to me anymore. They are all the same games with different graphics and a slight twist in a game mechanic.

Eve can be fun fromt he start as long as you do what you want to do. Day one for me in Eve I hit the high sec belts in my reaper with a single civilian autocannon, got enough loot and money to get myself into a Rifter and headed for low sec and then out to 0.0 ratting. Not very boring and this was done with a trade character, not a combat specific build. It's even easier today.

You may not want to play a game for 5 years but I like a game where I can play long term nowadays. Far too many throw away games out there. As a mature gamer this is something I want and I am glad CCP delivers it. There's a million choices out there for the quick game but very very few for the long term like Eve.

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

The tutorial works quite well. Sure there's a lot of reading but that's because there's so much to learn. I don't really know what you would like done to the tutorial to be more fun.

Yes many players leave and come back. I don't see them leaving at all a bad thing really as long as they come back of course. You are right in that it doesn't immediately grab new players, well some people it does but not many. But once it gets someone they sure hold on don't they ? Just becasue Eve doesn't have the numbers of WoW that doesn't mean it should change to be like WoW or any other game either.

Eve can be fun fromt he start as long as you do what you want to do. Day one for me in Eve I hit the high sec belts in my reaper with a single civilian autocannon, got enough loot and money to get myself into a Rifter and headed for low sec and then out to 0.0 ratting. Not very boring and this was done with a trade character, not a combat specific build. It's even easier today.

You may not want to play a game for 5 years but I like a game where I can play long term nowadays. Far too many throw away games out there. As a mature gamer this is something I want and I am glad CCP delivers it. There's a million choices out there for the quick game but very very few for the long term like Eve.

For starters, they can weave better "missions" into the tutorial. The starting area/quests of the Deathknights is a perfect example of what *can* be done. And this has NOTHING to do with how complex Eve is. You don't have to show the new player EVERYTHING. Just enough to have him start. The key is to make this part fun. Ideas specific to Eve, let him temporarily try out different types of ship & activities (WOW did this perfectly with the leveling quests). Does a little mining, a little mission, a little complex running, all in the name of a starting story. Outfit 2 or 3 different type of ships. It is not rocket science.

BTW, whatever i just said is NOT contradictory to the complexity which they can learn later.

Ditto for the "beginning levels". And Eve is certainly NOT fun in the beginning when all the mission can be done with no thinking at all.

In fact, there are more thinking involved in the early WOW quests (what skils do i use, how do i pull the mobs, how do i use the geography), then the early Eve missions. And sure it may change later, but a players won't see that if they don't continue to play the game, do they?

I'm still trying to figure out what is so steep about the learning curve. 

The only thing you need to learn is to fly with some common sense and only what you can afford to lose.  It also doesn't hurt to have some friends.

There are plenty of PVE oriented games out there that will lead you on a linear path to your promised land, but this is a sandbox where the player base makes the content and that is the way it should stay.