Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

You can sit and claim that 300k in subs in this day in time is doing good, but honestly, that just is not true. These mmo's are costing buttloads more to develope, maintain and release than what older games did. 300k to 400k back 4 yrs. ago was a solid number.

This is wrong, four years ago if a mmo had more then 100k subs that was amazing, only WoW has ever had huge numbers. everyother MMO averages around 150k-200k subs.

Now though, since WOW, the mmo market has mutiplied by leaps and bounds and to be able to gather only 300k subs after 3 months release is not very good.

Once again you're wrong, 300k is actually better then every other P2p mmo except FFXI, so I would say its very good.

It would suggest that that the game had and still has some serious flaws and the majority of people are not gonna wait for fixes or even not subscribe at all.

With so many people who are just flat out bored with WOW, you would think a new and refreshing game as WAR, hell not just WAR, but AOC, LOTR, Vanguard and so on would be able to have way over a million subs by now. The fact that they don't means that they were not as polished and ready for release or that they just brought nothing more than a vanilla experience to the mmorpg market.

Nope, What that proves is what everyone has been saying all along. WoW is filled with people that never played a MMO before and never intend to play any mmo ever. these players were into FPS, RTS, Console and old blizzard games. they are not the MMO playerbase.

Even with the crop of new games coming out, Earthrise, Darkfall, Mortal online, Fallen Earth, Stargate, Champions online, DC universe, and the Agency, i still think will only capture a small percentage of the massive WOW pie.

Games like DF, ER, MO,FE are targeting a niche pvp mmo market. since we already know the majority of wows players aren't even real mmo fans of course they won't pull them. Wanna know whats going to pull those people? The next sims game, web games, console games and sequals to Diablo and star craft. these are the games that these people play not MMOs. When you ask most of those players if they like MMOs they say no, they only like WoW.

There's only 2 mmo's i think will be released that will have all the potental of having millions in subs. SWTOR and Star Trek Online. These 2 mmo's have the backing and IP to not only have WOW subs numbers but even expand the genre even further.

Both those games will live on through IP, imo Bioware will make a good mmo but considering how few of those 11 million wow players are actually MMO players I dont see TOR hitting over a million players in NA/Euro.

 

WoW is like a freak of nature, it somehow has grabbed the attention of non- MMO fans and is now some type of  pop culture Icon, we will never, ever see a game with a population that big again.

When people talk about computer gaming in the 2000s the first name that you will hear out of a persons mouth is World of Warcraft.

 

 

i never knew that we had someone like yourself that is the MMO prophet. I didn't realize that you could know the gaming history of every single WOW player.

To sit and state that all WOW players have only played WOW is being somewhat condensending don't you think. The fact is, the majority of people on forums such as this, treats WOW as their dirty little secret.

They sit back and bash it, but the've played and probably at one time even enjoyed it until it became boring. Is WOW an anomily, maybe, maybe not. I still find it hard to believe that one game that is now over 4 yrs. old, can still corner so much of the mmo market.

This is telling me that all these newer games just are not offering anything special and is so vanilla, people will try them, find that they offer little of anything new and go back to WOW.

This is why this game and others are bleeding subs while WOW is constantly gaining. Don't get me wrong, i have played WOW on and off since release. My first mmo was SWG from launch and have played this game (WAR) and almost all others. The facts for me is, no other game came close to what SWG had to offer, but WOW comes in a close 2nd. with the immense amount of content that it offers.

So while 300K may not be at the bottom of the pole like the current version of SWG. It by no means is setting anything on fire.

 So if you think the guys at Mystic are happy and are not sitting there scratching their heads wondering how they could only have 300k subs going for them and not over a million, i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you.

 

LOL! alright relax. no need to be an ass with the prophet comment.

Do you really think the majority of WoW players actually played other MMOs before starting WOW?

The original MMO community wasnt that large, WoW pulled players in from a ton of different video game genres. These players don't play MMOs. You wonder why these other MMOs haven't caught on? because those millions of wow players arent even trying them.

Targeting a audience that wont even try your MMO is a mistake by today's new Devs.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

You can sit and claim that 300k in subs in this day in time is doing good, but honestly, that just is not true. These mmo's are costing buttloads more to develope, maintain and release than what older games did. 300k to 400k back 4 yrs. ago was a solid number.

This is wrong, four years ago if a mmo had more then 100k subs that was amazing, only WoW has ever had huge numbers. everyother MMO averages around 150k-200k subs.

Now though, since WOW, the mmo market has mutiplied by leaps and bounds and to be able to gather only 300k subs after 3 months release is not very good.

Once again you're wrong, 300k is actually better then every other P2p mmo except FFXI, so I would say its very good.

It would suggest that that the game had and still has some serious flaws and the majority of people are not gonna wait for fixes or even not subscribe at all.

With so many people who are just flat out bored with WOW, you would think a new and refreshing game as WAR, hell not just WAR, but AOC, LOTR, Vanguard and so on would be able to have way over a million subs by now. The fact that they don't means that they were not as polished and ready for release or that they just brought nothing more than a vanilla experience to the mmorpg market.

Nope, What that proves is what everyone has been saying all along. WoW is filled with people that never played a MMO before and never intend to play any mmo ever. these players were into FPS, RTS, Console and old blizzard games. they are not the MMO playerbase.

Even with the crop of new games coming out, Earthrise, Darkfall, Mortal online, Fallen Earth, Stargate, Champions online, DC universe, and the Agency, i still think will only capture a small percentage of the massive WOW pie.

Games like DF, ER, MO,FE are targeting a niche pvp mmo market. since we already know the majority of wows players aren't even real mmo fans of course they won't pull them. Wanna know whats going to pull those people? The next sims game, web games, console games and sequals to Diablo and star craft. these are the games that these people play not MMOs. When you ask most of those players if they like MMOs they say no, they only like WoW.

There's only 2 mmo's i think will be released that will have all the potental of having millions in subs. SWTOR and Star Trek Online. These 2 mmo's have the backing and IP to not only have WOW subs numbers but even expand the genre even further.

Both those games will live on through IP, imo Bioware will make a good mmo but considering how few of those 11 million wow players are actually MMO players I dont see TOR hitting over a million players in NA/Euro.

 

WoW is like a freak of nature, it somehow has grabbed the attention of non- MMO fans and is now some type of  pop culture Icon, we will never, ever see a game with a population that big again.

When people talk about computer gaming in the 2000s the first name that you will hear out of a persons mouth is World of Warcraft.

 

 

i never knew that we had someone like yourself that is the MMO prophet. I didn't realize that you could know the gaming history of every single WOW player.

To sit and state that all WOW players have only played WOW is being somewhat condensending don't you think. The fact is, the majority of people on forums such as this, treats WOW as their dirty little secret.

They sit back and bash it, but the've played and probably at one time even enjoyed it until it became boring. Is WOW an anomily, maybe, maybe not. I still find it hard to believe that one game that is now over 4 yrs. old, can still corner so much of the mmo market.

This is telling me that all these newer games just are not offering anything special and is so vanilla, people will try them, find that they offer little of anything new and go back to WOW.

This is why this game and others are bleeding subs while WOW is constantly gaining. Don't get me wrong, i have played WOW on and off since release. My first mmo was SWG from launch and have played this game (WAR) and almost all others. The facts for me is, no other game came close to what SWG had to offer, but WOW comes in a close 2nd. with the immense amount of content that it offers.

So while 300K may not be at the bottom of the pole like the current version of SWG. It by no means is setting anything on fire.

 So if you think the guys at Mystic are happy and are not sitting there scratching their heads wondering how they could only have 300k subs going for them and not over a million, i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you.

 

 

LOL! alright relax. no need to be an ass with the prophet comment.

Do you really think the majority of WoW players actually played other MMOs before starting WOW?

The original MMO community wasnt that large, WoW pulled players in from a ton of different video game genres. These players don't play MMOs. You wonder why these other MMOs haven't caught on? because those millions of wow players arent even trying them.

Targeting a audience that wont even try your MMO is a mistake by today's new Devs.

 

 

 

 

 

I can only speak for myself and my guild, as well as the 10 or so people I know from various other places also playing WoW. Myself and my guild have been playing MMO's since UO and EQ. We've been more or less playing the same MMORPG's throughout the last 10 years, together.

After EQ it was SWG, however shortlived that experience was, then off to CoH. We then tried our hands at a Star Wars multiplayer game I think. Then it was EQ2, VERY quickly followed by WoW and it's been WoW for most of us until WAR. A few of us tried WAR and quickly went back to WoW again.

My non-guild friends more or less followed the same path, although some went the Anarchy OnLine-CoH-Matrix Online/D&D Online path before ending up in WoW. Some also tried VG which effectively killed most of them due to puter hardware heh.

And from chat on my server in WoW, most people have been playing EQ/EQ2 at one point or another before WoW.

Originally posted by neller2000

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

You can sit and claim that 300k in subs in this day in time is doing good, but honestly, that just is not true. These mmo's are costing buttloads more to develope, maintain and release than what older games did. 300k to 400k back 4 yrs. ago was a solid number.

This is wrong, four years ago if a mmo had more then 100k subs that was amazing, only WoW has ever had huge numbers. everyother MMO averages around 150k-200k subs.

Now though, since WOW, the mmo market has mutiplied by leaps and bounds and to be able to gather only 300k subs after 3 months release is not very good.

Once again you're wrong, 300k is actually better then every other P2p mmo except FFXI, so I would say its very good.

It would suggest that that the game had and still has some serious flaws and the majority of people are not gonna wait for fixes or even not subscribe at all.

With so many people who are just flat out bored with WOW, you would think a new and refreshing game as WAR, hell not just WAR, but AOC, LOTR, Vanguard and so on would be able to have way over a million subs by now. The fact that they don't means that they were not as polished and ready for release or that they just brought nothing more than a vanilla experience to the mmorpg market.

Nope, What that proves is what everyone has been saying all along. WoW is filled with people that never played a MMO before and never intend to play any mmo ever. these players were into FPS, RTS, Console and old blizzard games. they are not the MMO playerbase.

Even with the crop of new games coming out, Earthrise, Darkfall, Mortal online, Fallen Earth, Stargate, Champions online, DC universe, and the Agency, i still think will only capture a small percentage of the massive WOW pie.

Games like DF, ER, MO,FE are targeting a niche pvp mmo market. since we already know the majority of wows players aren't even real mmo fans of course they won't pull them. Wanna know whats going to pull those people? The next sims game, web games, console games and sequals to Diablo and star craft. these are the games that these people play not MMOs. When you ask most of those players if they like MMOs they say no, they only like WoW.

There's only 2 mmo's i think will be released that will have all the potental of having millions in subs. SWTOR and Star Trek Online. These 2 mmo's have the backing and IP to not only have WOW subs numbers but even expand the genre even further.

Both those games will live on through IP, imo Bioware will make a good mmo but considering how few of those 11 million wow players are actually MMO players I dont see TOR hitting over a million players in NA/Euro.

 

WoW is like a freak of nature, it somehow has grabbed the attention of non- MMO fans and is now some type of  pop culture Icon, we will never, ever see a game with a population that big again.

When people talk about computer gaming in the 2000s the first name that you will hear out of a persons mouth is World of Warcraft.

 

 

i never knew that we had someone like yourself that is the MMO prophet. I didn't realize that you could know the gaming history of every single WOW player.

To sit and state that all WOW players have only played WOW is being somewhat condensending don't you think. The fact is, the majority of people on forums such as this, treats WOW as their dirty little secret.

They sit back and bash it, but the've played and probably at one time even enjoyed it until it became boring. Is WOW an anomily, maybe, maybe not. I still find it hard to believe that one game that is now over 4 yrs. old, can still corner so much of the mmo market.

This is telling me that all these newer games just are not offering anything special and is so vanilla, people will try them, find that they offer little of anything new and go back to WOW.

This is why this game and others are bleeding subs while WOW is constantly gaining. Don't get me wrong, i have played WOW on and off since release. My first mmo was SWG from launch and have played this game (WAR) and almost all others. The facts for me is, no other game came close to what SWG had to offer, but WOW comes in a close 2nd. with the immense amount of content that it offers.

So while 300K may not be at the bottom of the pole like the current version of SWG. It by no means is setting anything on fire.

 So if you think the guys at Mystic are happy and are not sitting there scratching their heads wondering how they could only have 300k subs going for them and not over a million, i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you.

 

And that's whole thing about it too, the 300k subscribers? That was over a month ago, when people had JUST gotten their hands on it for Christmas, by now the ones who got it then just had their free month expire too. The numbers are more than likely around the 200k area now.

That's just a guess on your part.  Only Mythic knows for sure.

And like you also mentioned, SWG. It was actually in itself a great game, the problem was with all the good mechanics, the great "levelling" system and multiclasses, it was the lack of stuff to DO with everything that killed it at first, then the "everyone is a jedi"-phase, NGE then effectively put the final nails in the coffin.

WAR has almost the exact same problems. A brilliant system you could do great things with, if the content had been there to begin with. If the content that WAS there actually worked to what it was hyped up to be. I pretty much think we're hastily closing in on the end of WAR, maybe not this month or next but I'm almost positive by summer if things progress in a downwards spiral as they have been the last few days, weeks and months.

That is only your opinion and certainly doesn't reflect what I see every night on the server that I play on.

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.  Just another poster making unsubstantiated claims.

Originally posted by Ionselon

Originally posted by neller2000

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

You can sit and claim that 300k in subs in this day in time is doing good, but honestly, that just is not true. These mmo's are costing buttloads more to develope, maintain and release than what older games did. 300k to 400k back 4 yrs. ago was a solid number.

This is wrong, four years ago if a mmo had more then 100k subs that was amazing, only WoW has ever had huge numbers. everyother MMO averages around 150k-200k subs.

Now though, since WOW, the mmo market has mutiplied by leaps and bounds and to be able to gather only 300k subs after 3 months release is not very good.

Once again you're wrong, 300k is actually better then every other P2p mmo except FFXI, so I would say its very good.

It would suggest that that the game had and still has some serious flaws and the majority of people are not gonna wait for fixes or even not subscribe at all.

With so many people who are just flat out bored with WOW, you would think a new and refreshing game as WAR, hell not just WAR, but AOC, LOTR, Vanguard and so on would be able to have way over a million subs by now. The fact that they don't means that they were not as polished and ready for release or that they just brought nothing more than a vanilla experience to the mmorpg market.

Nope, What that proves is what everyone has been saying all along. WoW is filled with people that never played a MMO before and never intend to play any mmo ever. these players were into FPS, RTS, Console and old blizzard games. they are not the MMO playerbase.

Even with the crop of new games coming out, Earthrise, Darkfall, Mortal online, Fallen Earth, Stargate, Champions online, DC universe, and the Agency, i still think will only capture a small percentage of the massive WOW pie.

Games like DF, ER, MO,FE are targeting a niche pvp mmo market. since we already know the majority of wows players aren't even real mmo fans of course they won't pull them. Wanna know whats going to pull those people? The next sims game, web games, console games and sequals to Diablo and star craft. these are the games that these people play not MMOs. When you ask most of those players if they like MMOs they say no, they only like WoW.

There's only 2 mmo's i think will be released that will have all the potental of having millions in subs. SWTOR and Star Trek Online. These 2 mmo's have the backing and IP to not only have WOW subs numbers but even expand the genre even further.

Both those games will live on through IP, imo Bioware will make a good mmo but considering how few of those 11 million wow players are actually MMO players I dont see TOR hitting over a million players in NA/Euro.

 

WoW is like a freak of nature, it somehow has grabbed the attention of non- MMO fans and is now some type of  pop culture Icon, we will never, ever see a game with a population that big again.

When people talk about computer gaming in the 2000s the first name that you will hear out of a persons mouth is World of Warcraft.

 

 

i never knew that we had someone like yourself that is the MMO prophet. I didn't realize that you could know the gaming history of every single WOW player.

To sit and state that all WOW players have only played WOW is being somewhat condensending don't you think. The fact is, the majority of people on forums such as this, treats WOW as their dirty little secret.

They sit back and bash it, but the've played and probably at one time even enjoyed it until it became boring. Is WOW an anomily, maybe, maybe not. I still find it hard to believe that one game that is now over 4 yrs. old, can still corner so much of the mmo market.

This is telling me that all these newer games just are not offering anything special and is so vanilla, people will try them, find that they offer little of anything new and go back to WOW.

This is why this game and others are bleeding subs while WOW is constantly gaining. Don't get me wrong, i have played WOW on and off since release. My first mmo was SWG from launch and have played this game (WAR) and almost all others. The facts for me is, no other game came close to what SWG had to offer, but WOW comes in a close 2nd. with the immense amount of content that it offers.

So while 300K may not be at the bottom of the pole like the current version of SWG. It by no means is setting anything on fire.

 So if you think the guys at Mystic are happy and are not sitting there scratching their heads wondering how they could only have 300k subs going for them and not over a million, i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you.

 

And that's whole thing about it too, the 300k subscribers? That was over a month ago, when people had JUST gotten their hands on it for Christmas, by now the ones who got it then just had their free month expire too. The numbers are more than likely around the 200k area now.

That's just a guess on your part.  Only Mythic knows for sure.

And like you also mentioned, SWG. It was actually in itself a great game, the problem was with all the good mechanics, the great "levelling" system and multiclasses, it was the lack of stuff to DO with everything that killed it at first, then the "everyone is a jedi"-phase, NGE then effectively put the final nails in the coffin.

WAR has almost the exact same problems. A brilliant system you could do great things with, if the content had been there to begin with. If the content that WAS there actually worked to what it was hyped up to be. I pretty much think we're hastily closing in on the end of WAR, maybe not this month or next but I'm almost positive by summer if things progress in a downwards spiral as they have been the last few days, weeks and months.

That is only your opinion and certainly doesn't reflect what I see every night on the server that I play on.

 

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.  Just another poster making unsubstantiated claims.

 

It was 700k something in September, 850k something in October/November and right after Christmas with the seasons sales and whatnot it was 300k. A 550k drop in a month, month and halfs time.

I'm not even going to bother taking up bets on that one. No bookie would be stupid enough with those odds to think it had gone up since.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by musicmann

You can sit and claim that 300k in subs in this day in time is doing good, but honestly, that just is not true. These mmo's are costing buttloads more to develope, maintain and release than what older games did. 300k to 400k back 4 yrs. ago was a solid number.

This is wrong, four years ago if a mmo had more then 100k subs that was amazing, only WoW has ever had huge numbers. everyother MMO averages around 150k-200k subs.

Now though, since WOW, the mmo market has mutiplied by leaps and bounds and to be able to gather only 300k subs after 3 months release is not very good.

Once again you're wrong, 300k is actually better then every other P2p mmo except FFXI, so I would say its very good.

It would suggest that that the game had and still has some serious flaws and the majority of people are not gonna wait for fixes or even not subscribe at all.

With so many people who are just flat out bored with WOW, you would think a new and refreshing game as WAR, hell not just WAR, but AOC, LOTR, Vanguard and so on would be able to have way over a million subs by now. The fact that they don't means that they were not as polished and ready for release or that they just brought nothing more than a vanilla experience to the mmorpg market.

Nope, What that proves is what everyone has been saying all along. WoW is filled with people that never played a MMO before and never intend to play any mmo ever. these players were into FPS, RTS, Console and old blizzard games. they are not the MMO playerbase.

Even with the crop of new games coming out, Earthrise, Darkfall, Mortal online, Fallen Earth, Stargate, Champions online, DC universe, and the Agency, i still think will only capture a small percentage of the massive WOW pie.

Games like DF, ER, MO,FE are targeting a niche pvp mmo market. since we already know the majority of wows players aren't even real mmo fans of course they won't pull them. Wanna know whats going to pull those people? The next sims game, web games, console games and sequals to Diablo and star craft. these are the games that these people play not MMOs. When you ask most of those players if they like MMOs they say no, they only like WoW.

There's only 2 mmo's i think will be released that will have all the potental of having millions in subs. SWTOR and Star Trek Online. These 2 mmo's have the backing and IP to not only have WOW subs numbers but even expand the genre even further.

Both those games will live on through IP, imo Bioware will make a good mmo but considering how few of those 11 million wow players are actually MMO players I dont see TOR hitting over a million players in NA/Euro.

 

WoW is like a freak of nature, it somehow has grabbed the attention of non- MMO fans and is now some type of  pop culture Icon, we will never, ever see a game with a population that big again.

When people talk about computer gaming in the 2000s the first name that you will hear out of a persons mouth is World of Warcraft.

 

 

i never knew that we had someone like yourself that is the MMO prophet. I didn't realize that you could know the gaming history of every single WOW player.

To sit and state that all WOW players have only played WOW is being somewhat condensending don't you think. The fact is, the majority of people on forums such as this, treats WOW as their dirty little secret.

They sit back and bash it, but the've played and probably at one time even enjoyed it until it became boring. Is WOW an anomily, maybe, maybe not. I still find it hard to believe that one game that is now over 4 yrs. old, can still corner so much of the mmo market.

This is telling me that all these newer games just are not offering anything special and is so vanilla, people will try them, find that they offer little of anything new and go back to WOW.

This is why this game and others are bleeding subs while WOW is constantly gaining. Don't get me wrong, i have played WOW on and off since release. My first mmo was SWG from launch and have played this game (WAR) and almost all others. The facts for me is, no other game came close to what SWG had to offer, but WOW comes in a close 2nd. with the immense amount of content that it offers.

So while 300K may not be at the bottom of the pole like the current version of SWG. It by no means is setting anything on fire.

 So if you think the guys at Mystic are happy and are not sitting there scratching their heads wondering how they could only have 300k subs going for them and not over a million, i have some ocean front property in Arizona i would like to sell you.

 

 

LOL! alright relax. no need to be an ass with the prophet comment.

Do you really think the majority of WoW players actually played other MMOs before starting WOW?

The original MMO community wasnt that large, WoW pulled players in from a ton of different video game genres. These players don't play MMOs. You wonder why these other MMOs haven't caught on? because those millions of wow players arent even trying them.

Targeting a audience that wont even try your MMO is a mistake by today's new Devs.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with what you are saying. The truth is, there's alot more people, in the millions, playing mmo's now, than when WOW came out.

@neller2000 (quoting was getting way to large)

All MMOs loose subs after they launch.  This is normal as people buy the game and decide it isn't for them.  This dip in subs is followed by an increase for a while as new people discover the game, then the subs plateau, and then begins the inevitable decline.  Even the vaunted WoW will succumb to this pattern eventually.

It will be interesting to see how the recurring subs do after the upcoming free trial.  By the time the free trial takes place, most of the bugs will have been squashed (yuck!) and the remaining 2 classes will be in-game.

In my personal opinion, I don't see this game going away anytime in the near future as you do.

Originally posted by Ionselon

@neller2000 (quoting was getting way to large)

All MMOs loose subs after they launch.  This is normal as people buy the game and decide it isn't for them.  This dip in subs is followed by an increase for a while as new people discover the game, then the subs plateau, and then begins the inevitable decline.  Even the vaunted WoW will succumb to this pattern eventually.

It will be interesting to see how the recurring subs do after the upcoming free trial.  By the time the free trial takes place, most of the bugs will have been squashed (yuck!) and the remaining 2 classes will be in-game.

In my personal opinion, I don't see this game going away anytime in the near future as you do.

Actually most normal MMO's gain in the beginning and then lose a SMALL amount over some months to settle, the difference here being WAR had a ton of subscribers right from the getgo and the vast number of those thought the game sucked and didn't resubscribe. 550 THOUSAND people give or take a few.

The ones who got WAR for Christmas are included in the 300k as well, many of those would have quit after their free trial ended a week and a half ago or so. When MMO companies say paid subscriptions they include everyone who has their account set for a billing, which is required to use the game and the free trial month which comes with the game.

So, given the 300k was a week after Christmas, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude most of those didn't resubscribe a week and a half ago when the trial ran out. Why would they, most would most likely have the same reasons for quitting as the rest of us.

And about an upcoming free trial, why would that make people stay? Is the trial for another game? People aren't quitting because the moon was not alligned perfectly with saturn or whatnot, they're quitting because the game in it's current state is crap, simple as that.

What's this about; that most wow players had their first experience with that crappy vanilla game so therefor they don't understand how wonderful and great WAR really is -thingy??

- Yes, WoW was my very first MMO. I mostly played shooters and sportsgames before that. But my eyes opened up for mmo's because of it so I started to look at other mmos aswell after about three years of wow...

I played Lotro for several months and guess what??  I liked it!! ( I even considering goin back to it one day)

I played EvE and guess what?? I liked that one too!! (a little buzy with a ps3 game atm tho;)  75% chance of coming back and play EvE some more later on)

I played AoC and heck,  I liked that one aswell!! (but the endgame wasn't any good at all tho)

And..... I tried War for little more than two months, got up to 40 and an alt to 23. And I'm sorry to say but this game was just the worst of ém all!! Simply plain boring!! Not to mention all the stuff that felt incompleted in it!

So don't give me that a "new mmo:er from wow" don't like War because he or she only likes WoW and hates every other mmo's outthere!

Whats with this; 300k is a good healthy number and I'm so happy for it and 100k's to 150k's more than any other mmo out there shows that it's a major success!!!

AND at the same time;

High subnumbers doesn't mean a game is good! Just look at that other game with such a high number of subscribers.... it's just Vanilla, it's just McDonalds and it just mostly crap written all over it! -thingy??

Is 300k's the perfect number all of a sudden??

No matter if it dropped from 800 to 300 in a few months.......... it's still the perfect number?

No matter if it might have dropped even more the last few weeks and there might be an frustrated EA-company watching it even closer................. it's still the perfect number??

Remember kids,how ever poor and unfinished your product is,youll always have the fans to back you up by blaming all your mistakes on warcraft.

300k is fine if you spent 30 million dollars on development costs like SOE did for Star Wars Galaxies. But Mythic put in almost 100 million dollars into Warhammer.

300k was great 5 years ago but the costs have skyrocketed since then. 300k x 15 a month, minus overhead costs and it will easily take 2+ years for Mythic to just break even. And thats if Warhammer maintains the 300k player base.

This game isnt just doing poorly, its in danger of a shutdown. The economy isnt in great shape as it is. So to ask investors to wait 2+ years before they even see a profit isnt very realistic

Originally posted by admriker4

300k is fine if you spent 30 million dollars on development costs like SOE did for Star Wars Galaxies. But Mythic put in almost 100 million dollars into Warhammer.

300k was great 5 years ago but the costs have skyrocketed since then. 300k x 15 a month, minus overhead costs and it will easily take 2+ years for Mythic to just break even. And thats if Warhammer maintains the 300k player base.

This game isnt just doing poorly, its in danger of a shutdown. The economy isnt in great shape as it is. So to ask investors to wait 2+ years before they even see a profit isnt very realistic

That would be true if you ignored box sales, which were substantial. The game has already paid for itself. This game is in no way in danger of a shutdown. It's one of the bright spots in the companies portfolio.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by admriker4

300k is fine if you spent 30 million dollars on development costs like SOE did for Star Wars Galaxies. But Mythic put in almost 100 million dollars into Warhammer.

300k was great 5 years ago but the costs have skyrocketed since then. 300k x 15 a month, minus overhead costs and it will easily take 2+ years for Mythic to just break even. And thats if Warhammer maintains the 300k player base.

This game isnt just doing poorly, its in danger of a shutdown. The economy isnt in great shape as it is. So to ask investors to wait 2+ years before they even see a profit isnt very realistic

 

That would be true if you ignored box sales, which were substantial. The game has already paid for itself. This game is in no way in danger of a shutdown. It's one of the bright spots in the companies portfolio.

you forget the cost there is to make these box sets.  mythic spent 100 in development of the game itself. it still needs to pay its employees. it still has to pay advertizement ect. if the game really sold 1 million copies, that means it would have made 50 million off the bat.

sounds like they made half of what they spent back. now start deducting whats needed to pay for advertisement of their game. Deduct the pay to their employees and the customer service center that will be employed when the game came out. factor bills that need to be paid. taxes than need to be paid quarterly. ect.  when it all boils down they didnt make that half back.

now for the subs, the game has been out for about 6 months. the 1st month of the game was free . 700k subs did not cover the full lifetime of the game its been dropping. 700k subs will be about 10.5 mil a month, if it would have held like that for a year they would have made back what they invested. remember every month they need to pay employees ect.

truth is those 700k subs didnt last long. if it was 1 month they still have not made what was invested. 300k subs worldwide of what they have now is only generateing 4.5 mil a month.

The loss of subscribers means they need to cut down costs to make a gain. thus job cuts. They simply cannot afford to pay as much employees they had hired. They did not recuperate what was invested in the game. Even so the 300k subscribers does not include last month and this one. it can be less .

As for ION

you posted this

Move along folks. Nothing to see here. Just another poster making unsubstantiated claims.

funny  because you just did the same thing in all of your posts. This one for example

Here's the math:

WAR: 300,000 subs x $15/mo = $4,500,000/mo x 12 mo = $54,000,000/yr

WoW: 11,000,000 subs x $15/mo = $165,000,000/mo x 12 mo = $1,980,000,000/yr

Now, my question is: what is Blizzard doing with the close to 2 billion dollars they collect each year? With that kind of cash flow, they could support a huge development team which could be constantly adding free content to the game. Instead, they have released 2 paid expansions which further increased their cash flow. And don't say server maintenance costs. The real cost is in purchasing the hardware; after that, the maintenace costs are relatively minor. Customer service? A game this old shouldn't have much customer service demand.

Do you run a buissnes or know how it works? Bliz has invested alot in their advertizing of the game and even hired worldwide known famous people to do their commericals. money has been invested to translate their games, which also include the voices heard ingame. they ahve to support this game in every language that it was translated to. so there will be a customer service center for each language. Gms for each language. ect.  Also their earning are backing up their next releases. you are making unsubstantial claims.

The answer is that the vast majority of your subscription fees each month go directly into Activision's profits.

blizzard recenly merged with activision. They were not with them  when wow came out. here your just making unsubstantial claims.

They are not being plowed back into the game to add value for the subscriber. They are a cash cow that is lining the pockets of a few individuals with no regard to the subscriber base. These individuals would have no qualm of closing WoW if they thought they could get a better return on their investment somewhere else. So, enjoy WoW while it lasts (which I'm sure will be several more years); it will eventually get the axe just like other games before it.

once again your making unsubstantial claims.

Now compare that to Mythic and what you are getting for your subscription fee. I know they are still playing catchup by adding content that was promised at launch, but they are also adding new content, including a new zone in June, for free.

i could have added this to the 1st part of your post but i left it here because of one thing. Blizzard has put TONS of free content in their games over the years. When wow came out only Upper black rock spire was considered engame it supported 15 players and was considered raid content. The burning crusade did not add Molten core, and all the other engame raids that were out before burning crusade came out. lets not mention the content added to sithilus and quests added everywhere. Also before wotlk alot of content was added for free  to the burning crusade, sunwell  and za for example.  Here your trying to compare what mythic  is giving you for your subscription fee. a new zone that has not yet ben released for free. yes  we must wait for it. just like wow players waited for  dire maul, molten core ect.   here you are showing huge signs of famboisim you are preaching the future. we must wait.

Right now, it appears that WAR is a better value (benefit per cost) than WoW. And please don't start with how much "better" WoW is than WAR. I've played both, and am still playing and enjoying WAR and right now my "Fun per Dollar" quotient is still positive. When it becomes negative, then its time to move on to another game.

If you have played wow when it came out you wouldnt have posted this benefit for cost. now you are enjoying war more than wow. Then why bash wow why waste time making Unsubstantial claims.

As I have said in other threads, no MMO can satisfy everyone. Pick the one that you enjoy playing and be happy that not everyone feels the same way you do. Variety is the spice of life.

Ion

Now you quickly went into a war with thomas who mentioned many things that need to be paid to keep a huge game running. you throw unsubstantial claims as if you know and run a big buisness. You just show you dont know what your talking about in that aspect.

mythic has been out for a while but in truth they have not made a mega successful game. The good games they did make couldnt hold up subscribers. daoc had to compete vs everquest. and everquest now still has a bigger subscriber base compared to all of mythic's games combined. They have also have a history of imploding their own products  for daoc all i can say is TRAILS OF ATLANTIS. this shows how much the company knew what they were doing. it was not until they lost many subscribers that they started listening to their playerbase. They made many bad desisions.  the only thing that had was a cliche rvr mechanic that was good. They poorly implemented that in warhammer.

Anyhow if you look at the History of over hyped games there is one thing for ciertain. they never recover they never jump back and make a huge game.  Vanguard flopped only to be bought by sony and improved it and now its decent but its not gaining huge numbers.

Look at what turbine did with lord of the rings. They did not hype it, none of their devs hyped the game. Only fanbois tried to hype it. now Lotro is gaining subscribers but the fact is the game is good and its getting lots of content added.  this is an example other dev teams need to follow.

For all i know any game thats being hyped by its own dev team = a bad game comming along.

Originally posted by Ionselon

@neller2000 (quoting was getting way to large)

All MMOs loose subs after they launch.  This is normal as people buy the game and decide it isn't for them.  This dip in subs is followed by an increase for a while as new people discover the game, then the subs plateau, and then begins the inevitable decline.  Even the vaunted WoW will succumb to this pattern eventually.

It will be interesting to see how the recurring subs do after the upcoming free trial.  By the time the free trial takes place, most of the bugs will have been squashed (yuck!) and the remaining 2 classes will be in-game.

In my personal opinion, I don't see this game going away anytime in the near future as you do.

There are mmos that have retained their subs and are increasing.lotro is increasing.

oh and as much as you hate it Wow keeps increasing. why well the money they generate from it on which you claim they do not invest into the game has well been being invested into the game.

instances have been made into managable sizes allowing even casual players to enjoy them. Raids have been tone down to allow a broader amount of subscribers to enjoy the content and challanges each boss provides.  In normal instances some bosses portay toned down patterns of old raid bosses and new to give players who never  did them a taste of what they missed and whats to come. they keep improving their lore and pve content. This is why the game keeps gaining subs.  they are giving more and more content all the time. even free content. Turbine is doing the same with lotro. they keep adding value to their game keeping its playerbase and gaining more.

oh and one thing you need to know about EA they can pull the plug off any of their frachises. They axed tony hawk which was very successful till skate came out. They killed their MMO earth and beyond.

If warhammer keeps losing  subs they will axe it. mythic will have to find another way to keep the game going . Ea may sell the rights to another company (infact i would be suprized if soe buys it)

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by admriker4

300k is fine if you spent 30 million dollars on development costs like SOE did for Star Wars Galaxies. But Mythic put in almost 100 million dollars into Warhammer.

300k was great 5 years ago but the costs have skyrocketed since then. 300k x 15 a month, minus overhead costs and it will easily take 2+ years for Mythic to just break even. And thats if Warhammer maintains the 300k player base.

This game isnt just doing poorly, its in danger of a shutdown. The economy isnt in great shape as it is. So to ask investors to wait 2+ years before they even see a profit isnt very realistic

 

That would be true if you ignored box sales, which were substantial. The game has already paid for itself. This game is in no way in danger of a shutdown. It's one of the bright spots in the companies portfolio.

That isn't really true the game developers don't really get as much from box sales as many think, it varies from game to game but most only receives around 15-25% of the retail price.

War Hammer's numbers are increasing. The initial Wow exodus has subsided. They have now increased to above 300k . Warhammers numbers are increasing more right now do to the russia launch. War also has a major contract with Korea. On top of that the buddy key system has brought alot of new recruits to war.  The new free trial system that is going to be implemented will also help. Wow did not grow immensly until its 10 day trial was implemented. And finally alot of people have been resubing to War because of the new expansion pack coming out over the next few months. Also war numbers will not go over 1 million until it is translated into multiple languages (Chinese korean and Japanese are huge). If Wow was only in English it would not have more than 2.5 million.  8 million plus wow players are not in the United States.

Originally posted by warror

War Hammer's numbers are increasing. The initial Wow exodus has subsided. They have now increased to above 300k . Warhammers numbers are increasing more right now do to the russia launch. War also has a major contract with Korea. On top of that the buddy key system has brought alot of new recruits to war.  The new free trial system that is going to be implemented will also help. Wow did not grow immensly until its 10 day trial was implemented. And finally alot of people have been resubing to War because of the new expansion pack coming out over the next few months. Also war numbers will not go over 1 million until it is translated into multiple languages (Chinese korean and Japanese are huge). If Wow was only in English it would not have more than 2.5 million.  8 million plus wow players are not in the United States.

you got the beef to your claim up. NOpe.  300k subscribers without including what has happened on jan and feb. the 300k subscribers INLCUDE EUROPE .

here are some facts that go against the increase of subs.

Fact : Russians would have been eyeing this game and probably have even played the European version.

Fact: Endame is little and not fun. Nothing to do Little effort has been made to fix current problems that is affecting end game thus players getting bored and jumping ship.

Fact: The new content promised is to hit around june. Yeah yeah the 2 "new classes " may be implemented before , however its still the same joyride and 2 classes that were in beta then ditched is not going to change the fact how endgame is bad.

Fact: Warhammer has not preformed well and has not even remotely made it close to pay up for what has been invested. This is leading to Job cuts and due to it not being profitable it will stop being promoted world wide as they Cannot cover any more costs.

Fact: Jacobs hype the crap out of this game  claiming to be what it isnt right now. Falure to have official fourms because they knew the subscribers would quickly naill every defect the game has that needs to be adressed and potential subscribers would flee with their money. infact they depended on baised fansites to lure new people in. Now after so darn long they finally are planning an official site up.

Fact: Mythic has proven in their previous games that they know how to mess their games up. They only had their cliche rvr going for them yet in their golden game daoc they did prove they never listen to their subscribers when they released trials of atlantis, ruining everything. it was not until they lost substantial subscribers that they started to listen and fine tune rvr, reduce the need for buffbots, implement a server free of their own disfuntional expantion pack ect.

Fact: Mythic had NO direction on how to make their mmo, and it shows. Instead of focusing mainly on their cliche rvr, they strived to make the game play more like its omega competitor world of warcraft. This gave mixed views on how people portay the game. the pve is horrendus and the rvr is bland compared to the daoc rvr.

Fact: Warhammer on both us and european sides has to many servers (again) once again thining the population causing areas ingame to be unbalanced or barren ruining the experience . Warhammer is a victim of its own game design. Not only somthing people have been posting about, but even popular magazines like Gameinformer have pointed out the major flaw this game has.

Originally posted by warror

War Hammer's numbers are increasing. The initial Wow exodus has subsided. They have now increased to above 300k . Warhammers numbers are increasing more right now do to the russia launch. War also has a major contract with Korea. On top of that the buddy key system has brought alot of new recruits to war.  The new free trial system that is going to be implemented will also help. Wow did not grow immensly until its 10 day trial was implemented. And finally alot of people have been resubing to War because of the new expansion pack coming out over the next few months. Also war numbers will not go over 1 million until it is translated into multiple languages (Chinese korean and Japanese are huge). If Wow was only in English it would not have more than 2.5 million.  8 million plus wow players are not in the United States.

Warhammer was at 300k at the end of December, included all the people who got it for Christmas. Those people would more than likely have quit in droves about 2 weeks ago when their trial ran out. Their numbers are decreasing by the day, no doubt about that.

WoW didn't just stand still until the trial, get your facts straight. WoW has been growing permanently since right after launch, not to mention it was boosted by unhappy players migrating from EQ2 around that time. From then on it's been rocketing to the skies.

And speaking for myself and about 12 people I know and played WAR with are sure as heck not resubscribing for an "expansion" which is 2 new classes and a dungeon. It's not exactly the lack of classes and dungeons that's at fault here for people fleeing WAR massively.

And you know, Euro players and Asian and so forth would still play WoW regardless. Are you honestly trying to say WoW wouldn't do well unless it had released localized versions in German, French, Spanish and Italian and so on? Newsflash here, the majority of the countries in Europe are using the English version.

Success is completely different in different situations, and I agree that people are idiots if they think you need WoW level of subscriptions to be a success. For instance, if DF came out and had 300k, it would be a killer success, because no one is expecting it to be that big, and it probably wouldn't have that many initial sales.

Now, WAR on the hand, you have to look at the big picture. Mythic was claiming they were going to get over 1million subscribers in the first year. They also sold a lot of boxed(read 900k?). In this case, I wouldn't say 300k is really a success. Not only because they were shooting way higher, but they already lost over 2/3 of the initial buyers. Not very good. 

Originally posted by maxnrosy

Originally posted by warror

War Hammer's numbers are increasing. The initial Wow exodus has subsided. They have now increased to above 300k . Warhammers numbers are increasing more right now do to the russia launch.

The devs indeed claim the numbers are on the rise, it's too early to talk about Russia though, of course people will flock to a new a game early on, it's sustainability that counts with mmos though.

 

 

you got the beef to your claim up. NOpe.  300k subscribers without including what has happened on jan and feb. the 300k subscribers INLCUDE EUROPE .

here are some facts that go against the increase of subs.

Fact : Russians would have been eyeing this game and probably have even played the European version.

Fact: Endame is little and not fun. Nothing to do Little effort has been made to fix current problems that is affecting end game thus players getting bored and jumping ship.

This is not fact this is opinion

Fact: The new content promised is to hit around june. Yeah yeah the 2 "new classes " may be implemented before , however its still the same joyride and 2 classes that were in beta then ditched is not going to change the fact how endgame is bad.

You have inside knowledge as to how the new content will affect the overall game?

Fact: Warhammer has not preformed well and has not even remotely made it close to pay up for what has been invested. This is leading to Job cuts and due to it not being profitable it will stop being promoted world wide as they Cannot cover any more costs.

This is not fact, this is guesswork,  unless you have access to the figures to back this up?

Fact: Jacobs hype the crap out of this game  claiming to be what it isnt right now. Falure to have official fourms because they knew the subscribers would quickly naill every defect the game has that needs to be adressed and potential subscribers would flee with their money. infact they depended on baised fansites to lure new people in. Now after so darn long they finally are planning an official site up.

Fact: Mythic has proven in their previous games that they know how to mess their games up. They only had their cliche rvr going for them yet in their golden game daoc they did prove they never listen to their subscribers when they released trials of atlantis, ruining everything. it was not until they lost substantial subscribers that they started to listen and fine tune rvr, reduce the need for buffbots, implement a server free of their own disfuntional expantion pack ect.

This is not fact , this is opinion.

Fact: Mythic had NO direction on how to make their mmo, and it shows. Instead of focusing mainly on their cliche rvr, they strived to make the game play more like its omega competitor world of warcraft. This gave mixed views on how people portay the game. the pve is horrendus and the rvr is bland compared to the daoc rvr.

This is an opinion not a fact

Fact: Warhammer on both us and european sides has to many servers (again) once again thining the population causing areas ingame to be unbalanced or barren ruining the experience . Warhammer is a victim of its own game design. Not only somthing people have been posting about, but even popular magazines like Gameinformer have pointed out the major flaw this game has.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Success is completely different in different situations, and I agree that people are idiots if they think you need WoW level of subscriptions to be a success. For instance, if DF came out and had 300k, it would be a killer success, because no one is expecting it to be that big, and it probably wouldn't have that many initial sales.

Now, WAR on the hand, you have to look at the big picture. Mythic was claiming they were going to get over 1million subscribers in the first year. They also sold a lot of boxed(read 900k?). In this case, I wouldn't say 300k is really a success. Not only because they were shooting way higher, but they already lost over 2/3 of the initial buyers. Not very good. 

True also no one knows how much was invested on the making of dark fall. the devs are not hyping the game to compete against wow. who knows df may fall in the same catergory like Lotro which has been increasing in subs.

warhammers devs did claim they will be competeing agains wow and was going to prove that with a small inestment they can make a more popular and better product than what blizzard produced.  to much expectations little results. and to know that they are actually doing worse than aoc.