Ok, I got lazy over the years, simple explanation. I wonder if anyone else made a similar development as I? While I recall well the days when I made maps on chequered paper and journal entries for the various quests in the Ultima IV days, and while it was ok for me in the early days of SWG just to drive around some friggin PLANET just to find some frigging boar to spawn for weeks, nowadays my patience has significantly dwindled.

I must here out myself with something embarassing: I hate Mines of Moria. I mean, not the addon per se, but the Mines itself. Not only its all dark and dark and oh look more dark, I find myself getting lost all the time. Its that were I realized I dont like to seek things anymore.

It's something that first happened to me in VG. I just had no wish to seek things for myself. I cant say 100% why, maybe a static MMO world just never is really interesting enough to spend all my time seeking stuff. I mean, sure its fun to explore the Shire or Breeland or any other new area in any MMO for a few days, but after a couple of days you know the area, so whats the point? Now I really dont need my nose pointed to the exact location like in Oblivion, but at least the area, as it is in WAR I want to be highlighted on the map. As option. Especially Moria is something I learned to hate.

"Find the magic scroll in Rathgathrath, which is somewhere northwest of Kharzhakhakh." Ah yes.

Now try to find THAT place when you have been out of the game for a months! I tell you, I found my journal FULL of stuff I had not the slightest clue where to look. And Moria is a frigging maze! Even when I got that quests I recall how I had no clue where to look.

Now sure, you will say, look at the internet! Now let me say this: I HATE doing this. I use the word "hate" specifically in connection with "search the internet for a game clue". It just snaps me out of the game, and the last thing I want to do is alt tab in and out of a game all the time to find some stupid scroll in some stupid library when it just could be in the ingame map.

I am sorry, but these days some map marker has become a must for me for MMOs in these days. I mean, ok, "find the barn north of Hobbiton" is simple enough, because the Shire is small. But its those godsforsaken, dark Mines of Moria which really kill every bit of fun when I stumble around for hours in the dark trying to seek some godsforsaken scroll some godsforsaken DORF needs for wiping his backside! I am just tired of stumbling around through worlds seeking whatever people have lost. Why does everyone loose everything by the way? If 90% of things are Fedex quests, alright, but maybe please can be get *some* small hint where to look other than an ominous text which describes places only in relation to other places I dont know either where they are?

Sorry, just had to rant this off. Can I pls have some cheese to my whine, now. ^^

I wonder however, if anyone else has made a similar change over the years?

I find exactly the same thing with LotRO as a whole; granted i've only just started playing the 14 day trial.

I have often, over the past 5 days, found myself heading across green pastures or snow capped mountains only to realise i've gone too far. Or, i need to find an NPC, an example:

"Find the lumber mill in Combe" - ok, straighforward enough, it's gotta be somewhere around this place. I run through Combe, up hills, down hills; can't for the life of me find it. Now if the description had been "You will find the lumber mill, north-east of Combe" i would have had no problems. I know the above is a silly example, but it happens all too often through the quest dialogue.

Now the quest descriptions in DAoC, they were pretty darn good, either that or the landscape was so sparse you couldnt miss anything

exploring in EnB was 1/3 the game, and my favourite part...taking exploration missions, but that world (galaxy) was sort of semi-dynamic.

But I agree with you, theres no desire or point in exploring a field or mountain just to find a NPC or quest mob in a zone that will be identical 5 years, 10 expansions and 50 patches from now, thats not exploration, its just tedious work.

I understand what you mean and it is because we have been spoiled by these shiny new mechanics that streamline the experience. I personnally can go with out a lot of these little helpers in modern MMO's but I certainly do not mind them. Some other examples of recent innovations and streamlining would be quest logs. In the early days of EQ the few quests in game had no quest log what so ever. You would have to take note yourself what NPC you talked to and what they wanted from you and where you had to go. Plus to top it off they merely say what items they need but don't tell you that those items are scattered across the world in various zones. Hell we didn't even have maps back in the day or a functioning compass right off the bat!

We are just very used to these modern conveniences and see past MMO features or lack of features as archaic, tedius, and frustrating. Many MMO gamers ( not all of them ) would hate to go back to no quest logs, no map, harsh death penality, item loss, respawning at bind points, long travel times, camping, no auction house, and no mail system. As time progresses people will hate to go back to games with no quest marker, no guild advancement system, no achievements, no mod support, no wiki support, and whatever other convenient feature to come.

As time progresses we will only see more streamlining and further refinement of the genre, and I'm absolutely certain you are not alone in your frustration over the lack of these features.

I don't want a pointer on where to go for a quest... I general direction should be enough to me, and if I realy can't find something, I'll yell in the game, or google it...
Today I've been searching for 15 minutes in EQ2 on some silly item I needed to fulfill my quest. That's what the RPG part of MMORPG is about!

 I'e seen (and played) a couple of games with those exact pointers, and I ditched them pretty fast...

I can see your point of view... I guess.  I however am not like yourself.  I like the challenge of looking for things, gettin glost and knowing that there is danger all around and if I screw up I kick the bucket pretty hard.  The risk is what makes the reward all that much greater for me and I hate being taken by the hand and spoonfed the content.  It kind of defeats the purpose and the adventure.

In the end it's different strokes for different folks, especially since what is fun is subjective and differs from person to person.

I can definitely see your point...

At times, I also feel "lazy" and want to hit the "easy button" so to speak.  Heck, with certain MMOs I won't even read the quest text.  I just click 'accept' and then look for the mini-map point to send me on my way (V:SoH and AoC).  The problem with this style, of course, is that the game very quickly becomes a leveling treadmill and I don't truly appreciate the game.  I find myself numbingly staring at the screen and not actually having all that much fun.

One thing I decided from the start with LotRO was to never, ever use an online spoiler site.  If I can't solve a quest myself, I just keep trying.  If I get overly frustrated, I may ask for help in the "/advice" channel.  But that's as far as I'll go.  Thus I find myself enjoying the scenery a bit more, and appreciating the accomplishment a bit more.  For this reason (amongst many others) I find that I'm enjoying my time in LotRO more than any other game.  But alas... I do sometimes still find myself blindly clicking 'accept' on quests (thus not appreciating the lore as much)... and just keeping an eye on the mini-map for the gold ring to pop up and signify that I've found my goal... some habits are hard to break!

I think part of everyone's frustration here is that we play static games that lack the tools to really get into quests.  So naturally, the want for a speedy ending to each quest is what we want, because these games focus on progression for the sake of progression.

If we had a game where quests meant anything though, there would likely be a world that followed it.  Perhaps if an NPC told you that you had an hour to go collect an herb to save his daughter's life, and you had a timer that relfected that, but did not tick, you would be hellbent to find that herb instead of forgetting about the quest because you saw some creature you felt like killing.  Of course, without knowledge of how much time you really have left (due to the randomness of the timer), you could fail no matter how fast you get the precious cure.

Quests like this, would inspire us to do more in a game, instead of just tunneling through and hoping for the best.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

I think part of everyone's frustration here is that we play static games that lack the tools to really get into quests.  So naturally, the want for a speedy ending to each quest is what we want, because these games focus on progression for the sake of progression.

If we had a game where quests meant anything though, there would likely be a world that followed it.  Perhaps if an NPC told you that you had an hour to go collect an herb to save his daughter's life, and you had a timer that relfected that, but did not tick, you would be hellbent to find that herb instead of forgetting about the quest because you saw some creature you felt like killing.  Of course, without knowledge of how much time you really have left (due to the randomness of the timer), you could fail no matter how fast you get the precious cure.

Quests like this, would inspire us to do more in a game, instead of just tunneling through and hoping for the best.

I've really got to agree with this.

On one hand I despise having quests basically solved for you (I need you to kill 6 boars, I've marked where they're located on your map, you outlevel them so it will be easy, also I'll give you a magic arrow showing you the way, etc...), but currently quests suck so much the less time spent on them the better.

I do like your thoughts on failing quests too. I know others can't take the hit to their precious ego but I think a good balance adds to the game. The chance of failure makes success all the better.

well that's true. quests are getting harder to complete with all the details and stuff. but currently, i am playing atlantica online which introduces this innovative "auto-move to quest" button. it does make quest completion easier, in the sense that you wont waste time getting lost.

I definitely agree.  I think that is one of the most frustrating parts of lord of the rings online. 

I have a 50 loremaster and 51 burglar and Mines of Moria has just be mostly frustration and tons of getting lost.  Unfortunately I took a break for a while before the expansion.  So Logging onto my characters now does not even feel like a continuation.   I am tempted to just reroll so I  can shake the constant feeling of just being horrifically lost and bored because of it.

I think warhammer has the best idea.  I mean roleplaying could even figure something out to allow this.  If someone asks me to go grab something for them at a store i have never heard of.   I would just ask them, hey can you point that out to me on this map (before google maps lol).  It makes complete sense that any rational person would want more to go on then "Search for the missing lore tablets buried underground somewhere".  I mean if it is that important for these people then I think they would at least be able to help you more.

I also had an idea while writing this.  What if you could take different difficulties before accepting a quest.

They could scale rewards based on how hard/easy you made the quest.  More information would make it easier, less would make it harder.

I have to agree, I've become lazy as well.... However,  I do miss the days where I would have to keep track of what quest I was on and who I spoke to when I got the quest.

The other thing I miss about some older games (EQ) is that you paid attention to what you looted.. you never knew what item you just looted... It could be part of some random odd quest that you have no idea what its about.. This made normal items that people needed for quests worth something and not just the fancy uber rare items... Good way to make some coin.

I enjoy exploring but I would like to see some dynamic systems in the game where if you get a quest you might not get the full location and details when you get the quest but if you ask around or ask the right people they could lead you to the right direction...

For example-- Mrs. Hobbit needs some boar meat for her stew.. you have no idea where the boars are and you search the surrounding areas.. To no avail you can't find them anywhere.. so you check the ranger guild in town and ask one of the master rangers where boars are.. he remebers seeing them on the edge of the forest on his way to the next town. You map is marked where he saw them. It could add to the world and make it more of a dynamic place.

More growing evidence that WoW has ruined the MMO industry for all of us old school people that have actually played a "true" MMO. Alas we are a dying breed. Cannot someone, somewhere please give us salvation!

WoW most certainly did not ruin any quests or quest systems.  If anything, it simply added on to them.  The process stopped there, however, as no one else adds in anything else.  Anything is better than EQ or UO though, in which getting a quest could be rather tedious.

cus its no fun being frustrated not knowing what to do.

I agree that logic should be used for certain quests. Like someone giving you good directions to the store or place you need to go to (if you ask them for it), but there should also be times when the NPC just doesn't know the information. If I was telling some adventurer to go to a certain building in another town, there is a chance that I wouldn't know where it is. Thus I couldn't put a dot on their map. They would just have to either find it themselves or ask around.

I also really like the idea of not having every little detail written in a magic quest journal for you. It seems cool to have to write your own quest journal and remember what NPC you talked to, what he or she needed, and where that NPC was. Unfortunately I've never gotten the chance to play a game like this as I started playing MMOs with FFXI. I just think it would make the whole role playing game aspect to an MMORPG a lot more immersive.

I also used to play text based games where I would map out everything on graph paper.  

And I've hand mapped an entire mud using zmud's mapper.

And I have to say it was a joy in fallout 3 to get pointed to exactly where I needed to go.

I think we are just getting older. I also started using a GPS, I love it, I even use it for places I know how to get to, I just like seeing the 3d map move around.

There is 2 routes you can go i belive.

1.Possibility to make notes on the map something i think should be standard and that can be seen on all new char you make. Hate having to use pen and paper just plain waste, that way you know where to look if you are away from the game or you make a alt.

2. Tie rewards into the map so for instance  in beginner mood you get more help on the map with for instance automatic quest tracking or map notes tied to quests and you then get lesser rewards for quest or somilar, and in hard/normal mode you get more rewards and only see region notes.

I prefer 1.

I have to admit i have only recently started playing lotro and one reason i have carried on is just this reason. I have found that so far ( i'm only 25 ) each quest gives me moe than adequate clues as to where to go. i play a hunter so it's also kinda like RP for me to learn the lay of the land, just like back in old EQ days!

One of the reasons i have left most games is that quests are to god damn easy. at least in lotro i have to have an idea of where i'm going. i think its more to do with RP with me. if i have an area lightened up then i would prefer the mobs im looking for to see me on a map coming for them and to have the same chance, and simply move away. lotro is refreshing as far as quests go. lets not go back to hand holding us.

For me it was kinda a surprise to watch me own change. I think it was magnified by two factors for me however.

1. I find Mines of Moria especially troublesome. While it looks cool, all the dark and maze-like nature makes finding especially difficult. Added to that is the factor you have to fight your way through most routes, since unlike open space you cant sneak around, so its always a tremendous waste of time once you get really lost in Moria, which happens to me all the time in Moria!

2nd: The lack of map notes makes returning after a break especially difficult. I tend to make breaks with MMos regularly, and there is nothing worse than a huge list of quests you may have had an idea what it meant, but now you totally got out of touch and all those directional descriptions mean nada to me now. I was away about 6 - 8 weeks, and its all greek to me. I just dont find into my old char's quest, and thats quite regrettable.

In open space it would maybe a bit easier, but in that vast dungeon I feel so lost, lol. Did I say I dont like the Moria? I never was a friend of too long dungeons runs and too long gloomy darkness scenarios. Maybe you must be a Dorf to like it, heh. Generally I think LOTRO is one of the best MMOs out there, but I kinda would like some optional map markers for quests... or maybe as UI as the famous EQ2Map thing. Anyone knows such a thing for LOTRO?

I like the idea of editing a map and adding notes. i mean thats what we generally do in RL with places of interest that are not mapped. but i would still prefer to find places first then the map opens with the ability to add notes.

I have not seen moria yet but by the sounds of it it could also be down to the dungeon design. i remember running around lake rath in EQ when there were no expansions out and that place was like a maze, but you coped with it as all around were recognisable ruins, landscape and such so all you had to do was take a quick glance and you would recognise where you were.

Everquests maps are a joke :\ Like a 5 year old made them in mspaint..... like I'll take WoW's map system thanx.

Originally posted by Elikal

For me it was kinda a surprise to watch me own change. I think it was magnified by two factors for me however.

1. I find Mines of Moria especially troublesome. While it looks cool, all the dark and maze-like nature makes finding especially difficult. Added to that is the factor you have to fight your way through most routes, since unlike open space you cant sneak around, so its always a tremendous waste of time once you get really lost in Moria, which happens to me all the time in Moria!

2nd: The lack of map notes makes returning after a break especially difficult. I tend to make breaks with MMos regularly, and there is nothing worse than a huge list of quests you may have had an idea what it meant, but now you totally got out of touch and all those directional descriptions mean nada to me now. I was away about 6 - 8 weeks, and its all greek to me. I just dont find into my old char's quest, and thats quite regrettable.

In open space it would maybe a bit easier, but in that vast dungeon I feel so lost, lol. Did I say I dont like the Moria? I never was a friend of too long dungeons runs and too long gloomy darkness scenarios. Maybe you must be a Dorf to like it, heh. Generally I think LOTRO is one of the best MMOs out there, but I kinda would like some optional map markers for quests... or maybe as UI as the famous EQ2Map thing. Anyone knows such a thing for LOTRO?

The solution to all your issues is the incredible community and the /advice chat. I understand your #2, as I had the same issue after a break, However, the community helped, and I slowly became familiar again with the world.... LOTRO has some of the best world design of any game, landmarks and areas are REAL. Use'em. You will find a greater sense of satisfaction when you realize you know the best ways to such and such area..etc…