I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers.

I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes.

Thanks in advance.

Think Jeff Freeman talked about that alittle when he was active on this site.    Maybe his post history would be a good place to start as far as the answer goes.  

Think this is him.  It's about the right time frame that he was active on here.   

http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Dundee

Originally posted by JayBirdz

Think Jeff Freeman talked about that alittle when he was active on this site.    Maybe his post history would be a good place to start as far as the answer goes.  

Think this is him.  It's about the right time frame that he was active on here.   

http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Dundee

I knew him pretty well and we had corresponded a few times. I don't recall him ever writing that anywhere. Again I am looking for anyone who KNOWS when this was said, and especially anyone who saved it.

they did not loose the code.  A good Software Engineer (and indeed, company) would have a bunch of disks with the old builds (from alpha beta right up to the current build).

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by JayBirdz

Think Jeff Freeman talked about that alittle when he was active on this site.    Maybe his post history would be a good place to start as far as the answer goes.  

Think this is him.  It's about the right time frame that he was active on here.   

http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Dundee

 

I knew him pretty well and we had corresponded a few times. I don't recall him ever writing that anywhere. Again I am looking for anyone who KNOWS when this was said, and especially anyone who saved it.

Well excuuuussse me.   Fuck it then.  Good luck on your search.

If they "lost" the code, then SOE are completely unqualified to run so much as a company's internal IT shop, much less a software publisher.

Of course, as we all know they've proven themselves this unqualifed OR WORSE in the past.

Example:  The rollbacks of Bloodfin and Chimaera of days to weeks on CU day BECAUSE THE MORONS DID A MAJOR DATABASE MIGRATION WITHOUT A CURRENT BACKUP!

That right there would get most any IT admin fired, especially with the data loss involving not just company, but CUSTOMER data, but was done without so much as even a promise to "communicate better" which means SOE didn't even really acknowledge it as a problem.

The word that best describes SOE's operations:  shoddy.

The same will happen with their new MMO's in development, which will lead to thier failure.  They won't deal with those games differently than they do with their existing ones.  Leopards don't change their spots.

SOE's problem is company CULTURAL.  As in, their company does not promote a culture of quality, productivity, and customer satisfaction, but rather the opposite.

It might be hard to find what you are looking for. A lot of history and information from the old days got lost with the cancellation of the old lithium forums. I don't know if there are any internet archives around that kept the stuff from the lithium forums?

Anyway, it was along time ago so I don't really remember, but wasn't it $med himself that mentioned something was lost from the old game? Then again when did $med ever tell the truth?

What I think happened was that there were either poor or no documentation at all from the old game and when the old devs left they took the knowledge and dev skills with them. On another note I can't think of any professional MMO developer wanting to work for SOE in order to understand (bring back) the pre-CU code.

If $OE really lost the old code, well then they deserve their reputation and that is

SOE = failure

They have hinted at "lost code" a few times over the years - which basically means: Original programmers left them with messy code and no explainations - LA and SOE didnt see eye to eye and they couldn't really decipher the old code - specially with the NGE overlays etc on top - it all got muddled.

If you are a programmer - then you'll know it never easy following someone else's coding style (loops, and calls, and custom functions, and variable names (Var A, Var Aa, Var AbxA, etc)) - regardless of how many conventions you are "supposed" to follow.

Someone needs to leak out the old server code so we can all run private servers.

Originally posted by ssnautilus

They have hinted at "lost code" a few times over the years - which basically means: Original programmers left them with messy code and no explainations - LA and SOE didnt see eye to eye and they couldn't really decipher the old code - specially with the NGE overlays etc on top - it all got muddled.

If you are a programmer - then you'll know it never easy following someone else's coding style (loops, and calls, and custom functions, and variable names (Var A, Var Aa, Var AbxA, etc)) - regardless of how many conventions you are "supposed" to follow.

When did they hint this and where did you see it? I have heard plenty of players say what you are saying, but never saw Smedley say it or anyone from SOE or LA. I have asked people to share links and quotes and they never have.

I'm not a programmer, just a guy with a pretty good memory about all this stuff, who believes he has read every piece of communication from Smedley et al, and has never seen what people here are describing, but not substantiating.

I was trying to help you out earlier but you rather bitch at me because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter. Jeff Freeman. I am 100% sure he was asked and answered. Where he was asked I don't recall. I just recall reading it. It was after he had left SWG. It was also either asked on this site or someone linked to it in a post on this site. I don't visit a lot or MMORPG or 3 party SWG sites other than here and link from here to them. Doesn't help that the search function on this site sucks balls.


But hey what do I know you were pen pals with him.  I got no reason to make this shit up. 

As far as someone from SoE saying they didn't have the code anymore. I don't know.  I wouldn't have put it past someone from the company saying it in a post somewhere on their site. In the end does it really matter? It's just going to sit on a HD and collect dust or eventually be lost and deleted. Pre Cu isn't coming back except for the emulator. if it ever gets finished.

Originally posted by JayBirdz

I was trying to help you out earlier but you rather bitch at me because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter. Jeff Freeman. I am 100% sure he was asked and answered. Where he was asked I don't recall. I just recall reading it. It was after he had left SWG. It was also either asked on this site or someone linked to it in a post on this site. I don't visit a lot or MMORPG or 3 party SWG sites other than here and link from here to them. Doesn't help that the search function on this site sucks balls.


But hey what do I know you were pen pals with him.  I got no reason to make this shit up. 

As far as someone from SoE saying they didn't have the code anymore. I don't know.  I wouldn't have put it past someone from the company saying it in a post somewhere on their site. In the end does it really matter? It's just going to sit on a HD and collect dust or eventually be lost and deleted. Pre Cu isn't coming back except for the emulator. if it ever gets finished.

I didn't bitch at you and there is no reason to take it so personally; I want some information, you did your best. I am hoping someone has what I am looking for; after all people have saved pretty much everything I've seen that's pertinent but this.

Either way it's no reason to get obnoxious about it.

I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to.

Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date.

The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.

Originally posted by kunoulovesme

I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to.

Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date.

The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.

I read that entire thread, and all the other related threads, and I never saw that there. Plus, sometime AFTER that Julio went on G4, and in an interview said they could open a classic server at any time.

I don't remember people on the forums calling him on what Smedley said. Weird.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by kunoulovesme

I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to.

Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date.

The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.

 

I read that entire thread, and all the other related threads, and I never saw that there. Plus, sometime AFTER that Julio went on G4, and in an interview said they could open a classic server at any time.

I don't remember people on the forums calling him on what Smedley said. Weird.

That's because Julio was telling the truth. They didn't get rid of the code and nobody believed that they had so of course they could have done rollbacks or opened a classic server.

Besides that interview was totally fixed...it was close enough to the time of the NGE that he should have gotten a ton of rather pointed questions and all he got were softballs...the whole thing was a setup.

I think at the time the post was made it was chaos at SOE. As others have noted after the fact nobody really expected the backlash and Smed was in total spin mode. It was that same thread where Smed stated something like "80% of the remaining players are vets" but he tried to make it sound like 80% of the pre-NGE community was still playing even though nobody who was actually playing the game at the time believed that.

Like I said, though, unless somebody has an archive of the old forums nobody is going to be able to provide you with a link to use as proof. Why is this so important to you?

Originally posted by kunoulovesme

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by kunoulovesme

I remember exactly where it came from. After the NGE went live and the forums were in flames Smed made three or four posts trying to damage control. There was one huge thread where he was actually trying to respond to questions and in that thread several people asked if the reasons for not doing rollbacks were technical in nature or political/business related. He stated that they didn't have the old code so it was technically impossible to do a rollback even if they wanted to.

Of course the forums were wiped when they upgraded their software so unless somebody has an archive available you're not going to see the actual post but that is where it came from. If there is an archive of the old forums it would have been within a week of the NGE live date.

The reason I remember it so clearly is because in the days after the NGE I was on the forums a lot checking the dev tracker. I even had a bookmark of all of Smed's posts for easy reference and every time I clicked on that link I would see that post.

 

I read that entire thread, and all the other related threads, and I never saw that there. Plus, sometime AFTER that Julio went on G4, and in an interview said they could open a classic server at any time.

I don't remember people on the forums calling him on what Smedley said. Weird.

That's because Julio was telling the truth. They didn't get rid of the code and nobody believed that they had so of course they could have done rollbacks or opened a classic server.

Besides that interview was totally fixed...it was close enough to the time of the NGE that he should have gotten a ton of rather pointed questions and all he got were softballs...the whole thing was a setup.

I think at the time the post was made it was chaos at SOE. As others have noted after the fact nobody really expected the backlash and Smed was in total spin mode. It was that same thread where Smed stated something like "80% of the remaining players are vets" but he tried to make it sound like 80% of the pre-NGE community was still playing even though nobody who was actually playing the game at the time believed that.

Like I said, though, unless somebody has an archive of the old forums nobody is going to be able to provide you with a link to use as proof. Why is this so important to you?

Even though the questions on the interview were softballs, people who watched it on the forums went over it with a fine toothed comb, and I don't remember ANYONE questioning Julio's' statement re Smedley's. We're smart people -- someone would have done that and I have no recollection of that discussion either.

It is far from "so important to me" since I have been posting on the NGE for years now, and this is the only thread I've ever started on the subject. I've merely heard people say that Smedley and other DEVs at SOE said that they claimed to have "lost the code," in fact it happened in another thread. In that I have never heard this, when I read someone write that, I occasionally have questioned it -- as with this occasion.

No one has ever produced the quote, and whenever they bring up the context they claim to have heard this, I remember the context very well, and don't remember Smed saying it.

Either way I am hoping someone saved it, and I'll just hope and wait for the response. Why do I even care? I want to know the truth, as always. That's always important to me and I feel it should be for everyone else.

Heya,

Here is a link to the video of Julio's interview on Attack of the Show

http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/classics/62045/Star-Wars-Galaxies-producer-Julio-Torres.html

Dakkide

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by JayBirdz

I was trying to help you out earlier but you rather bitch at me because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter. Jeff Freeman. I am 100% sure he was asked and answered. Where he was asked I don't recall. I just recall reading it. It was after he had left SWG. It was also either asked on this site or someone linked to it in a post on this site. I don't visit a lot or MMORPG or 3 party SWG sites other than here and link from here to them. Doesn't help that the search function on this site sucks balls.


But hey what do I know you were pen pals with him.  I got no reason to make this shit up. 

As far as someone from SoE saying they didn't have the code anymore. I don't know.  I wouldn't have put it past someone from the company saying it in a post somewhere on their site. In the end does it really matter? It's just going to sit on a HD and collect dust or eventually be lost and deleted. Pre Cu isn't coming back except for the emulator. if it ever gets finished.

 

I didn't bitch at you and there is no reason to take it so personally; I want some information, you did your best. I am hoping someone has what I am looking for; after all people have saved pretty much everything I've seen that's pertinent but this.

Either way it's no reason to get obnoxious about it.

I took it as you blew me off with a lame reason.  How stupid is it to imply " I know Jeff Freeman because I had a few emails with him".   Who didn't email him with questions?   I recall him also bitching about the countless emails/ pm's he was being sent.   Think you should take some of your own advice. 

It's not like I was implying that he said they didn't have the code. 

It seems most heard that the code was lost/destroyed from someone else who said so, so it appears the information is mostly third party speculation. I had heard such assumptions of the 'lost code' but never really believed it. Smedley saying it (if he actually did) means absolutley nothing since he has zero credibility in my book with his history of out-right lies and broken promises. If he did say the code was lost or destroyed,  he did so just to defer the heat he was getting about roll backs or classic servers when it became immediately apparent the NGE was a catastrophic failure. Teh Smedz and his toadies would (and have) say anything that would some how justify their blunders, especially one of the magnitude of the NGE. If that means lying about the code, then yes, they could have said it but it means nothing.

Originally posted by Fishermage

I have seen people on this forum and others that Smedley and other SOE DEVs have said that they lost the code to pre-CU/NGE and that is why they couldn't roll back or open classic servers.

I never saw anyone official say that. Did anyone save these very important quotes? Any info on this would be helpful, especially any links and/or well referenced quotes.

Thanks in advance.

That. Is. Horse. Shit.

Just like Mythic lost the code to Legends of Kesmai, MageStorm, SpellBinder, etc? Horse shit.

Legends of Kesmai leaked as a matter of fact and can still be played to this day. Two player servers run it (And they have some kind of immature drama whore feud going on).

MageStorm, for instance, is probably the greatest game ever made. Those bastards WONT bring it back. Not CANT.

These business folks, they dont give a shit about what we think. They WONT bring back Pre-CU. Not CANT. At least one dev on the planet (or one FTP) has the old code saved as a backup. To tell us otherwise its just a bare faced lie.

They care about looking like idiots, and about money. They feel that pre-CU wouldn't turn over as much profit as feeding their dying horse, so they won't bring back anything. It makes me sick.

I hope the entire management team dies in a plane crash. Less people in the world I have to worry about.

i never read an official statement saying that the original code was lost. but that doesn't mean that it did not exist.

what i can remember heareing a lot was that there is no way to roll back and tkeep the newer expansions combined with the pre cu/pre nge code. which might be a possible thing sinde the expansion was built based on nge.

as a programmer myself (not in game developement), i am near sure they still have the old code somewhere in a versioning system (every software company uses some version controll, you cannot do bigger projects without it), but i am also near sure that now its too late to make a pre nge server. they would need a seperate dev team for that, and i doubt that there would be enough players on either variant of swg after that to support 2 dev teams.

I don't think I can link directly to the sites but do a search for Biophilia's Scrapbook. It has a bunch of dev quotes archived prior to when the old boards were taken down. And it includes all of smed's quotes.. or at least all of smed's quotes that weren't deleted by the time the archive was made. Here's what I've found in the scrapbook:

---

(helios 11/8/06)

Creature Handler and Bio Engineer will not be returning to SWG. The code for those profession is imcompatible with this version of SWG. If Creature Handler gameplay is to return to the game, most of those system will need to be re-written....

---

---

(smed 11/25/05)

Unfortunately we also can't put up a pre-NGE (or PRE-CU) version of SWG. That would require us to support 2 separate versions of the codebase and we're just not able to do that. We couldn't simply put up a version like this unsupported.. what if someone found a really bad exploit?

---

both allude to having the code. Couldn't find a quote saying they didn't have it, although quotes were deleted all the time on that forum. The quote from smed was only 10 days after the NGE went live, but what kunoulovesme said is mildly familiar to me. I can't say that didn't happen.

Originally posted by JayBirdz

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by JayBirdz

I was trying to help you out earlier but you rather bitch at me because it wasn't handed to you on a silver platter. Jeff Freeman. I am 100% sure he was asked and answered. Where he was asked I don't recall. I just recall reading it. It was after he had left SWG. It was also either asked on this site or someone linked to it in a post on this site. I don't visit a lot or MMORPG or 3 party SWG sites other than here and link from here to them. Doesn't help that the search function on this site sucks balls.


But hey what do I know you were pen pals with him.  I got no reason to make this shit up. 

As far as someone from SoE saying they didn't have the code anymore. I don't know.  I wouldn't have put it past someone from the company saying it in a post somewhere on their site. In the end does it really matter? It's just going to sit on a HD and collect dust or eventually be lost and deleted. Pre Cu isn't coming back except for the emulator. if it ever gets finished.

 

I didn't bitch at you and there is no reason to take it so personally; I want some information, you did your best. I am hoping someone has what I am looking for; after all people have saved pretty much everything I've seen that's pertinent but this.

Either way it's no reason to get obnoxious about it.

I took it as you blew me off with a lame reason.  How stupid is it to imply " I know Jeff Freeman because I had a few emails with him".   Who didn't email him with questions?   I recall him also bitching about the countless emails/ pm's he was being sent.   Think you should take some of your own advice. 

It's not like I was implying that he said they didn't have the code. 

 

Ummmmm. Okay, thank you for your input.

Originally posted by PreCU

I don't think I can link directly to the sites but do a search for Biophilia's Scrapbook. It has a bunch of dev quotes archived prior to when the old boards were taken down. And it includes all of smed's quotes.. or at least all of smed's quotes that weren't deleted by the time the archive was made. Here's what I've found in the scrapbook:

 

---

(helios 11/8/06)

 

Creature Handler and Bio Engineer will not be returning to SWG. The code for those profession is imcompatible with this version of SWG. If Creature Handler gameplay is to return to the game, most of those system will need to be re-written....

---

 

 

---

(smed 11/25/05)

 

Unfortunately we also can't put up a pre-NGE (or PRE-CU) version of SWG. That would require us to support 2 separate versions of the codebase and we're just not able to do that. We couldn't simply put up a version like this unsupported.. what if someone found a really bad exploit?

---

 

both allude to having the code. Couldn't find a quote saying they didn't have it, although quotes were deleted all the time on that forum. The quote from smed was only 10 days after the NGE went live, but what kunoulovesme said is mildly familiar to me. I can't say that didn't happen.

yup, that's how I see everything I've read from the official sources. They have the code. I never saw them say they didn't. I have seen them say that the code is a mess and that they can't figure aspects of it out, I have seen them say that they had to figure the code out from scratch since none of them knew it at all, as with the Space Update, but never saw anyone from SOE say they didn't have, or lost, the code. Not from Smedley, not from Freeman, Rubenfield, Steinmann (Helios), Brenlo, Virrago, Thunderheart, etc.

That which people are saying they saw is also mildly familiar to me as well, but I have never seen the source of these comments. You'd think someone would have it saved, as many of us saved other things we read over the years. I know I read the entire threads people are alluding to, and I don't remember seeing what they saw. therefore since there is a dsicrepancy between my memory or theirs, I am hoping someone has something saved.

If it was said, I want to know it was said.

I agree. Just to pose the argument though, if it was said it must have been deleted quickly. And it seems the quote wasn't as direct and memorable as "we lost the code" but rather, "we don't have the code", which would be much less likely to be saved. Plus all the time that has past, add all that up and it would be very lucky to find someone with a saved copy.