TBH, it was a bad idea for SWG and would be a very bad idea for TOR. I don't know where you got your anology from but I think it would be more like it with unlockable Jedi. Having Jedi unavailable to the masses didn't make the player better... it just meant there were more no-lifers with Jedi who are more than likely more immature than people who have other obligations besides gaming.

I guess it could be a way to make the player feel special when they get to be a Jedi, but it's really unnecessary. It also doesn't make sense for Jedi to be rare in the timeline.

Instead of having a Jedi be unlockable, it would make more sense for some of the Jedi abilities to be hard to attain which I think is what it will be like.

Jedi for all... Jedi Masters for few.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should.

Why?

I explain below.

I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline.

And I don't want to see 90% of the population. Period. Why? Because if it's like any other MMO, a sizable percentage of the population are complete assholes. All I care about are the people I actually ENJOY playing the game with. The rest can go pound sand for all I care.

So why play an MMO at all? Why not go play a single player game, or a co-op game with your friends if you don't want to see anyone else?

The games themselves play a huge role in the type of players you find in game. When players don't need anyone else, they have no need to be nice, and no care to, so you see a lot of them be complete assholes. But games where people need each other and need to co-exist, you will find very strong communities form. So perhaps it isn't the people that are the problem, but the games?

Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

So should Bounty Hunters, Mandalorians, etc.. I get it. You want a game wherein the lion's share of the playerbase lead less interesting lives than NPCs. All the better for you to lord over them something a little bit more special, a little bit more powerful... right?

Mandalorians weren't rare, there were armies of them. Why would bounty hunters be rare too? There is nothing special that prevents someone from being a bounty hunter.

But, you lost me on the last part.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

Do yourself a favor; stop watching Naruto and Dragon Ball Z to derive your Jedi lore.

I have never watched either of those, and I've never even heard of Naruto(If it is anime that's why, I think anime is pretty gay)

No levelheaded person is expecting to be Yoda or Mace Windu fresh out of the tutorial. That would neither be authentic to the IP, or good for game balance.

Well I guess we can agree on something. But still, if Jedi are starter class, and you claim that they need to be trained since they are younglings, then does it make sense for an early 20's Jedi that has been training all of his life to be a pathetic level 1?

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

Why should they have *any* more power than anyone else?

Because Jedi were generally more powerful then most people? Pick a side here, either you want to enforce the lore or you don't.

Did you watch the films? Did you? With the exception of Empire Strikes Back, at least one Jedi dies in EVERY movie.

On the contrary, the Tauntaun was actually a Jedi in disguise. He froze to death

Hell, in some cases, they die by the score. Please, stop equating Jedi with "over nine thousaaaaand power level" demigods.

But, don't look at the fact that Jedi died, but HOW they died. Usually to either A) Other Jedi, or B) being vastly outnumbered, or C) being taken by surprise(Although I wonder how you take a Jedi by surprise. Apparently Yoda is the only true Jedi that can sense something). No, not all Jedi were Mace Windu's, or Yoda's, but they were generally stronger then the average soldier. Just look at the little Jedi that George Lucas' son played(pretty sure it was his son) in episode 3. He was like 14 and took out quite a few clone troopers before he was  killed.

It's completely valid to expect other playable professions to be just as self-sufficent, just as powerful, and just as deadly as Jedi... especially player Jedi.

I agree.

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

What are you proposing, a caste system? A lottery to determine who gets to play "hero" and who doesn't? Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) eagerly pay $15 a month merely for the "privilege" of boosting the egos of a handful of "special" people? You think fun should be doled out to only a select minority, and the rest of us should be grateful to play out the roles of peasant or serf?

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I want a world where I can determine if I am a hero or not, where I gain a reputation on the server based on my actions and my interactions with others, not by having some NPC blow smoke up my ass and telling me I'm the man.

Again, I don't think any reasonable person is demanding to forgo character progression in favor of an "I win button". What exactly are you driving at? 

I don't understand what you are asking.

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

 

I don't want to play mediocre onlie with a Star Wars skin. If you do, SWG still exists, why wish it on SWtOR? Why not try something diffrent than a World of Star Wars?

It seems the main stumbling block to this idea is the politicaly correct dogma that most younger people adhere to of "Everything should be fair!". Well the trouble is if everything is fair, life as well as games become mediocre! That is why everyone doesn't get a gold medal at the Olympics, Why every country doesn't win the world cup, why everyone doesn't get an Oscar. Someone has to be the best and someone has to suck, if not the game becomes a mediocre grind to level x to enter the hallowed halls of mediocrity so you can run around with the other saber jerks like "Fluke Shitewalker" and " Fan Colon" and "Cupp-O". Get my drift?

Unless I have someone on top of the hill to try to knock down what's the point? You may be happy to take your place at the top along with the other 250k "Chewcrappa's" and bathe in the light of mediocrity. I and many others don't, and since most of the gamers have come to MMORPGs post WoW they haven't tried this way. So why not be open to give it a shot? You will find that the struggle to take out that twat that lords his good fortune or hard work over others is extremely entertaining on its own, more so than, endless PVE grinding. If you and some buddys ever do take him out (I did as a BH in pre-cu SWG quite often) then that is far more satisfying than getting to lvl 80 in any random PVE grind level based turd. Then you get to lord it over him and bring his ego back down to size.

For all this you need a community which in the post WoW era consists of mental midgets throwing verbal excrement at eachother. I suggest only, you open yourselves to walking another path! Shocking idea I know, especially in the post WoW era!

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should.

Why?

I explain below.

I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline.

And I don't want to see 90% of the population. Period. Why? Because if it's like any other MMO, a sizable percentage of the population are complete assholes. All I care about are the people I actually ENJOY playing the game with. The rest can go pound sand for all I care.

So why play an MMO at all? Why not go play a single player game, or a co-op game with your friends if you don't want to see anyone else?

Why? Why play an MMO??

Maybe because I have more than just a handful of friends? Maybe because I enjoy a dynamic environment, with content that's constantly being supplemented and expanded? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because I can afford the subscription fee and want to play the game. Unless you're my mother, I don't have to explain my reasons to you.

The games themselves play a huge role in the type of players you find in game. When players don't need anyone else, they have no need to be nice, and no care to, so you see a lot of them be complete assholes. But games where people need each other and need to co-exist, you will find very strong communities form. So perhaps it isn't the people that are the problem, but the games?

There are assholes in every MMO, regardless of game design. Don't kid yourself. The beauty of a system wherein you're not dependent on them is, well, you're NOT dependent on them.

Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

So should Bounty Hunters, Mandalorians, etc.. I get it. You want a game wherein the lion's share of the playerbase lead less interesting lives than NPCs. All the better for you to lord over them something a little bit more special, a little bit more powerful... right?

Mandalorians weren't rare, there were armies of them. Why would bounty hunters be rare too? There is nothing special that prevents someone from being a bounty hunter.

How many Mandalorians did you see in the movies? How 'bout Bounty Hunters? I don't know about you, but by comparison? I saw a hell of a lot more Jedi.

But, you lost me on the last part.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

Do yourself a favor; stop watching Naruto and Dragon Ball Z to derive your Jedi lore.

I have never watched either of those, and I've never even heard of Naruto(If it is anime that's why, I think anime is pretty gay)

You may want to reevaluate your position on that. From the sounds of things, they may be right up your alley. In all seriousness, you might want to at least consider checking out Afro Samurai. Honestly, I think you'd dig it.

No levelheaded person is expecting to be Yoda or Mace Windu fresh out of the tutorial. That would neither be authentic to the IP, or good for game balance.

Well I guess we can agree on something. But still, if Jedi are starter class, and you claim that they need to be trained since they are younglings, then does it make sense for an early 20's Jedi that has been training all of his life to be a pathetic level 1?

How is it any different than any other profession in a progression-based game? Why is my Wizard pathetic at level 1? Why is my Fighter pathetic at level 1?

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

Why should they have *any* more power than anyone else?

Because Jedi were generally more powerful then most people?

Says who?

I saw Jango blast the shit out of a Master Jedi with relative aplomb and ease. He didn't even break a sweat. For that matter, I saw Luke get his ass handed to him by freakin' Ewoks.

Pick a side here, either you want to enforce the lore or you don't.

I think my opinion is fairly consistent with the lore; a well-skilled (or simply well-prepared) opponent can be every bit as formidable as a Jedi.

Did you watch the films? Did you? With the exception of Empire Strikes Back, at least one Jedi dies in EVERY movie.

On the contrary, the Tauntaun was actually a Jedi in disguise. He froze to death

Hell, in some cases, they die by the score. Please, stop equating Jedi with "over nine thousaaaaand power level" demigods.

But, don't look at the fact that Jedi died, but HOW they died. Usually to either A) Other Jedi, or B) being vastly outnumbered, or C) being taken by surprise(Although I wonder how you take a Jedi by surprise. Apparently Yoda is the only true Jedi that can sense something). No, not all Jedi were Mace Windu's, or Yoda's, but they were generally stronger then the average soldier.

By all means, anyone eager to pay $15 a month to play an "average soldier" can knock themselves out. Personally? That's not what I'm interested in.

Just look at the little Jedi that George Lucas' son played(pretty sure it was his son) in episode 3. He was like 14 and took out quite a few clone troopers before he was  killed.

Yes, how convenient. George Lucas' own son put up quite a fight before getting clobbered. But he still was killed, wasn't he? And as I recall, most of his little buddies weren't so valiant.

It's completely valid to expect other playable professions to be just as self-sufficent, just as powerful, and just as deadly as Jedi... especially player Jedi.

I agree.

So what's the problem then?

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

What are you proposing, a caste system? A lottery to determine who gets to play "hero" and who doesn't? Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) eagerly pay $15 a month merely for the "privilege" of boosting the egos of a handful of "special" people? You think fun should be doled out to only a select minority, and the rest of us should be grateful to play out the roles of peasant or serf?

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I want a world where I can determine if I am a hero or not...

And therein lies the proverbial rub.

If you get to determine whether or not you're a "hero", what about me? Do I get that choice? What about my next door neighbor? Does he get that choice? Assuming we do, what if we all choose to play the "hero"? Then what? By your reasoning, oh noes, none of us are "teh special"!

...where I gain a reputation on the server based on my actions and my interactions with others, not by having some NPC blow smoke up my ass and telling me I'm the man.

What's to prevent you from gaining a reputation on the server based on your actions or interactions with others? Am I missing something here?

If it's any consolation, I assure you, if we play together, and you suck, I most definitely won't blow smoke up your ass to the contrary.

Again, I don't think any reasonable person is demanding to forgo character progression in favor of an "I win button". What exactly are you driving at? 

I don't understand what you are asking.

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

 

 

The SW movies can not be taken as canon any longer. Lucas has so screwed up things, you have to go to the books and comics for any kind of continuity.

Originally posted by Agricola1

I don't want to play mediocre onlie with a Star Wars skin. If you do, SWG still exists, why wish it on SWtOR? Why not try something diffrent than a World of Star Wars?

It seems the main stumbling block to this idea is the politicaly correct dogma that most younger people adhere to of "Everything should be fair!". Well the trouble is if everything is fair, life as well as games become mediocre! That is why everyone doesn't get a gold medal at the Olympics, Why every country doesn't win the world cup, why everyone doesn't get an Oscar. Someone has to be the best and someone has to suck, if not the game becomes a mediocre grind to level x to enter the hallowed halls of mediocrity so you can run around with the other saber jerks like "Fluke Shitewalker" and " Fan Colon" and "Cupp-O". Get my drift?

Unless I have someone on top of the hill to try to knock down what's the point? You may be happy to take your place at the top along with the other 250k "Chewcrappa's" and bathe in the light of mediocrity. I and many others don't, and since most of the gamers have come to MMORPGs post WoW they haven't tried this way. So why not be open to give it a shot? You will find that the struggle to take out that twat that lords his good fortune or hard work over others is extremely entertaining on its own, more so than, endless PVE grinding. If you and some buddys ever do take him out (I did as a BH in pre-cu SWG quite often) then that is far more satisfying than getting to lvl 80 in any random PVE grind level based turd. Then you get to lord it over him and bring his ego back down to size.

For all this you need a community which in the post WoW era consists of mental midgets throwing verbal excrement at eachother. I suggest only, you open yourselves to walking another path! Shocking idea I know, especially in the post WoW era!

It's fairly amusing someone whining about not getting their way is simultaneously lecturing us that life isn't fair and we should suck it up and get used to it.

Don't want a game that's fair? Come to Brooklyn and I'll teach you three-card monte.

It will not matter what we think, the game is going to be what its gonna be anyways so I dont see a point of this post at all.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Agricola1

I don't want to play mediocre onlie with a Star Wars skin. If you do, SWG still exists, why wish it on SWtOR? Why not try something diffrent than a World of Star Wars?

It seems the main stumbling block to this idea is the politicaly correct dogma that most younger people adhere to of "Everything should be fair!". Well the trouble is if everything is fair, life as well as games become mediocre! That is why everyone doesn't get a gold medal at the Olympics, Why every country doesn't win the world cup, why everyone doesn't get an Oscar. Someone has to be the best and someone has to suck, if not the game becomes a mediocre grind to level x to enter the hallowed halls of mediocrity so you can run around with the other saber jerks like "Fluke Shitewalker" and " Fan Colon" and "Cupp-O". Get my drift?

Unless I have someone on top of the hill to try to knock down what's the point? You may be happy to take your place at the top along with the other 250k "Chewcrappa's" and bathe in the light of mediocrity. I and many others don't, and since most of the gamers have come to MMORPGs post WoW they haven't tried this way. So why not be open to give it a shot? You will find that the struggle to take out that twat that lords his good fortune or hard work over others is extremely entertaining on its own, more so than, endless PVE grinding. If you and some buddys ever do take him out (I did as a BH in pre-cu SWG quite often) then that is far more satisfying than getting to lvl 80 in any random PVE grind level based turd. Then you get to lord it over him and bring his ego back down to size.

For all this you need a community which in the post WoW era consists of mental midgets throwing verbal excrement at eachother. I suggest only, you open yourselves to walking another path! Shocking idea I know, especially in the post WoW era!

 

It's fairly amusing someone whining about not getting their way is simultaneously lecturing us that life isn't fair and we should suck it up and get used to it.

Don't want a game that's fair? Come to Brooklyn and I'll teach you three-card monte.

I'm glad you're easily amused, yet I find your reply predictably mediocre.

i think it should be a a non-start class and should be earned jusst like SWG was in the begining. jedi running all over the place is crap and doesn't make the game as fun to me. hence the reason why i stopped SWG after being 1 week from making jedi and then they are everywhere.

i hope they don't let just EVERYONE be jedi like SWG is now.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Agricola1

I don't want to play mediocre onlie with a Star Wars skin. If you do, SWG still exists, why wish it on SWtOR? Why not try something diffrent than a World of Star Wars?

It seems the main stumbling block to this idea is the politicaly correct dogma that most younger people adhere to of "Everything should be fair!". Well the trouble is if everything is fair, life as well as games become mediocre! That is why everyone doesn't get a gold medal at the Olympics, Why every country doesn't win the world cup, why everyone doesn't get an Oscar. Someone has to be the best and someone has to suck, if not the game becomes a mediocre grind to level x to enter the hallowed halls of mediocrity so you can run around with the other saber jerks like "Fluke Shitewalker" and " Fan Colon" and "Cupp-O". Get my drift?

Unless I have someone on top of the hill to try to knock down what's the point? You may be happy to take your place at the top along with the other 250k "Chewcrappa's" and bathe in the light of mediocrity. I and many others don't, and since most of the gamers have come to MMORPGs post WoW they haven't tried this way. So why not be open to give it a shot? You will find that the struggle to take out that twat that lords his good fortune or hard work over others is extremely entertaining on its own, more so than, endless PVE grinding. If you and some buddys ever do take him out (I did as a BH in pre-cu SWG quite often) then that is far more satisfying than getting to lvl 80 in any random PVE grind level based turd. Then you get to lord it over him and bring his ego back down to size.

For all this you need a community which in the post WoW era consists of mental midgets throwing verbal excrement at eachother. I suggest only, you open yourselves to walking another path! Shocking idea I know, especially in the post WoW era!

 

It's fairly amusing someone whining about not getting their way is simultaneously lecturing us that life isn't fair and we should suck it up and get used to it.

Don't want a game that's fair? Come to Brooklyn and I'll teach you three-card monte.

hanshotfirst - Elite Member Real Name: n/a Member since November 13, 2007 Last Visit: February 1, 2009
39 year old Male from Beverly Hills, CA, United States Email: Private; send a Private Message Posted 281 times in the Discussion Forums

Why in the blue Hades would you want Jedi to be an "unlockable" profession in a game that you want to SELL?  Get your elitism out of the way for a second, and think of their major goal...SELLING GAMES!  Other than some Boba/Jangu Fett fanbois(he's dead.  deal with it), and those lookin' for some Wookie love, most people playing a Star Wars game want to be a Jedi.  There is a whole galaxy of people, right?  That means that, even if Jedi were one in a million, in a low ball population of a trillion people there would be a million Jedi!  Plus, this game is about the Jedi vs the Sith.  Why would they make one of the core parts of the game hard to get for most players?

If you want a game where you can grind away and stroke your e-peen, stick with WoW.  Hopefully, smart people are running the game, and want to actually make money by making the majority of game players happy.

Originally posted by Agricola1

As the title said, my fear is that as soon as an adult male gets hold of a lightsaber his IQ immediately drops until he has a mental age of a socially retarded 7 year old! I don't want a game full of them! Also Jedi should have a TEF when pulling out a lightsaber even.

Jedi in my opinion should be only unlkockable by an unkown set of parameters, and then they have a tough time after that.

 

Is this Raph Koster?

Originally posted by Agricola1

As the title said, my fear is that as soon as an adult male gets hold of a lightsaber his IQ immediately drops until he has a mental age of a socially retarded 7 year old! I don't want a game full of them! Also Jedi should have a TEF when pulling out a lightsaber even.

Jedi in my opinion should be only unlkockable by an unkown set of parameters, and then they have a tough time after that.

 

You forgot the "They're Going To Do IT Anyways So My Whining Is Futile" option.

Jeebus sweet Mary 'n Joseph.... Yeah, they're totally going to change a major part of the game this far in development to satisfy the whole 10% of the population who can't deal with the fact that they'll be a Jedi from the get-go.

Oh wait, no they won't...

Originally posted by Vyre

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Agricola1

I don't want to play mediocre onlie with a Star Wars skin. If you do, SWG still exists, why wish it on SWtOR? Why not try something diffrent than a World of Star Wars?

It seems the main stumbling block to this idea is the politicaly correct dogma that most younger people adhere to of "Everything should be fair!". Well the trouble is if everything is fair, life as well as games become mediocre! That is why everyone doesn't get a gold medal at the Olympics, Why every country doesn't win the world cup, why everyone doesn't get an Oscar. Someone has to be the best and someone has to suck, if not the game becomes a mediocre grind to level x to enter the hallowed halls of mediocrity so you can run around with the other saber jerks like "Fluke Shitewalker" and " Fan Colon" and "Cupp-O". Get my drift?

Unless I have someone on top of the hill to try to knock down what's the point? You may be happy to take your place at the top along with the other 250k "Chewcrappa's" and bathe in the light of mediocrity. I and many others don't, and since most of the gamers have come to MMORPGs post WoW they haven't tried this way. So why not be open to give it a shot? You will find that the struggle to take out that twat that lords his good fortune or hard work over others is extremely entertaining on its own, more so than, endless PVE grinding. If you and some buddys ever do take him out (I did as a BH in pre-cu SWG quite often) then that is far more satisfying than getting to lvl 80 in any random PVE grind level based turd. Then you get to lord it over him and bring his ego back down to size.

For all this you need a community which in the post WoW era consists of mental midgets throwing verbal excrement at eachother. I suggest only, you open yourselves to walking another path! Shocking idea I know, especially in the post WoW era!

 

It's fairly amusing someone whining about not getting their way is simultaneously lecturing us that life isn't fair and we should suck it up and get used to it.

Don't want a game that's fair? Come to Brooklyn and I'll teach you three-card monte.

hanshotfirst - Elite Member Real Name: n/a Member since November 13, 2007 Last Visit: February 1, 2009
39 year old Male from Beverly Hills, CA, United States Email: Private; send a Private Message Posted 281 times in the Discussion Forums

 

And...? Were you trying to make a point there, or just showing off your mad copy 'n paste skillz?

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should.

Why?

I explain below.

I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline.

And I don't want to see 90% of the population. Period. Why? Because if it's like any other MMO, a sizable percentage of the population are complete assholes. All I care about are the people I actually ENJOY playing the game with. The rest can go pound sand for all I care.

So why play an MMO at all? Why not go play a single player game, or a co-op game with your friends if you don't want to see anyone else?

Why? Why play an MMO??

Maybe because I have more than just a handful of friends? Maybe because I enjoy a dynamic environment, with content that's constantly being supplemented and expanded? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because I can afford the subscription fee and want to play the game. Unless you're my mother, I don't have to explain my reasons to you.

But again, why does it have to be an MMO? There are tons of multiplayer online games that you can do exactly what you describe without ever having to interact with anyone you don't know. MMORPGs are supposed to be about living in an online world, interacting and relying on people that you don't know(much like the real world), and forming relationships and communities in game to better yourself. But you on the other hand, want to drive the only unique concepts of MMOs out the window and make them all single player online games that charge a subscription fee, which makes no sense.

The games themselves play a huge role in the type of players you find in game. When players don't need anyone else, they have no need to be nice, and no care to, so you see a lot of them be complete assholes. But games where people need each other and need to co-exist, you will find very strong communities form. So perhaps it isn't the people that are the problem, but the games?

There are assholes in every MMO, regardless of game design. Don't kid yourself. The beauty of a system wherein you're not dependent on them is, well, you're NOT dependent on them.

True, there are assholes in every game. The beauty of a game design that I mentioned above was, you have options. Someone is an asshole, don't sell stuff to him. Spread the word that he is a jerk, other people won't interact with him either. He will gain a reputation as an "asshole" and it will follow him. Declare war on his guild and fight it out just because you don't like him

But if you are stuck in a WoW type game, where 90% of people are assholes because they can be with no repricussions, there is nothing you can do. You can't declare war on their guild, you can't spread the word that they are an asshole and get mertchants to stop selling goods to them. They can just be an asshole and not worry about it.

Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

So should Bounty Hunters, Mandalorians, etc.. I get it. You want a game wherein the lion's share of the playerbase lead less interesting lives than NPCs. All the better for you to lord over them something a little bit more special, a little bit more powerful... right?

Mandalorians weren't rare, there were armies of them. Why would bounty hunters be rare too? There is nothing special that prevents someone from being a bounty hunter.

How many Mandalorians did you see in the movies? How 'bout Bounty Hunters? I don't know about you, but by comparison? I saw a hell of a lot more Jedi.

In the movies, there were only two mandalorians(unless you want to count the clone troopers, which were clones of a mandalorian, then you would have millions of mandalorians, and a lot more than Jedi). But this doesn't take place in the movies, this takes place 3500 years before the movies where mandalorians are prominent(didn't you ever play KotOR?). But lets look at the original trilogy. There were what, 3 Jedi and two Sith shown throughout the entire trilogy? Compare that to the 9-10 Bounty hunters you see(At Jabba's palace, and on the Star Destroyer in Empire Strikes Back) and there are actually more Bounty Hunter's shown than Jedi.

But that doesn't hold in the new trilogy, because George changed the main theme from an epic galactic wide conflict(which was there in both trilogies) to glowsticks and magic. I prefer the original movies though.

But, you lost me on the last part.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

Do yourself a favor; stop watching Naruto and Dragon Ball Z to derive your Jedi lore.

I have never watched either of those, and I've never even heard of Naruto(If it is anime that's why, I think anime is pretty gay)

You may want to reevaluate your position on that. From the sounds of things, they may be right up your alley. In all seriousness, you might want to at least consider checking out Afro Samurai. Honestly, I think you'd dig it.

I'll pass. The only anime I ever liked was Pokemon back in my younger years. Beyond that, I've never found the appeal to anime at all.

No levelheaded person is expecting to be Yoda or Mace Windu fresh out of the tutorial. That would neither be authentic to the IP, or good for game balance.

Well I guess we can agree on something. But still, if Jedi are starter class, and you claim that they need to be trained since they are younglings, then does it make sense for an early 20's Jedi that has been training all of his life to be a pathetic level 1?

How is it any different than any other profession in a progression-based game? Why is my Wizard pathetic at level 1? Why is my Fighter pathetic at level 1?

Was your wizard training to be a wizard since birth? Not necessarily. How about the fighter? No. But as you claimed before, the lore makes it so that Jedi were training since a young age. So it still doesn't make sense.

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

Why should they have *any* more power than anyone else?

Because Jedi were generally more powerful then most people?

Says who?

I saw Jango blast the shit out of a Master Jedi with relative aplomb and ease. He didn't even break a sweat. For that matter, I saw Luke get his ass handed to him by freakin' Ewoks.

But Jengo was the best of the best. You are taking the BEST at what they do from the movies and are trying to apply it to every single person on the server? That doesn't make sense either. These people received hero status because they were so good at what they did, not because they clicked "Create" and were awesome.

Luke didn't even try to fight the ewoks, so that's not a good comparison.

Pick a side here, either you want to enforce the lore or you don't.

I think my opinion is fairly consistent with the lore; a well-skilled (or simply well-prepared) opponent can be every bit as formidable as a Jedi.

Sure, the best of the best in an ordinary profession can be just as good as a Jedi. So are we to assume that every Jedi in the game is a piss poor excuse for a Jedi, and ever other class that plays is assumed to be the best of the best? That doesn't make sense, and doesn't seem like Star Wars to me. You claim you want to enforce the lore, but then want every class to be equal in power, which Jedi weren't. Again, you aren't being consistent and need to pick a side.

Did you watch the films? Did you? With the exception of Empire Strikes Back, at least one Jedi dies in EVERY movie.

On the contrary, the Tauntaun was actually a Jedi in disguise. He froze to death

Hell, in some cases, they die by the score. Please, stop equating Jedi with "over nine thousaaaaand power level" demigods.

But, don't look at the fact that Jedi died, but HOW they died. Usually to either A) Other Jedi, or B) being vastly outnumbered, or C) being taken by surprise(Although I wonder how you take a Jedi by surprise. Apparently Yoda is the only true Jedi that can sense something). No, not all Jedi were Mace Windu's, or Yoda's, but they were generally stronger then the average soldier.

By all means, anyone eager to pay $15 a month to play an "average soldier" can knock themselves out. Personally? That's not what I'm interested in.

Then go play a single player game where you get to be the Hero and don't have to pay anything a month. How will you be the hero in an MMO? Because every NPC says you are, and you get extraordinary power compared to the NPC's, but average power compared to every other player? In that case, everyone is the hero, so  no one is because everyone is exactly the same.

Where in, if you are playing an average soldier, everything in the world around you makes sense. Everyone else is an average soldier, so everyone being equal in power makes sense. You are average to the NPC's, so the NPC's ordering you to go kill a bunch of rats makes sense. Killing rats isn't hero work.

Just look at the little Jedi that George Lucas' son played(pretty sure it was his son) in episode 3. He was like 14 and took out quite a few clone troopers before he was  killed.

Yes, how convenient. George Lucas' own son put up quite a fight before getting clobbered. But he still was killed, wasn't he? And as I recall, most of his little buddies weren't so valiant.

You are missing the point. He was a young Jedi, and took out a bunch of non-Jedi before he was finally overtaken. Look at Anakin in episode 2. He demolishes a whole camp of Sand people at a very young age, when he was considerably less powerful(Ahhh Duku my armmmmm!!!!). My point is that the average Jedi is more powerful than the average non-Jedi, but you seem to just be ignoring this obvious fact.

It's completely valid to expect other playable professions to be just as self-sufficent, just as powerful, and just as deadly as Jedi... especially player Jedi.

I agree.

So what's the problem then?

There is no problem if we just assume that every player Jedi is a piss poor Jedi. But what about if we had a force ranking system where some People could become Masters, and be slightly more powerful. Surely you won't expect a Master Jedi to be the same power as Joe Blow commando would you?

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

What are you proposing, a caste system? A lottery to determine who gets to play "hero" and who doesn't? Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) eagerly pay $15 a month merely for the "privilege" of boosting the egos of a handful of "special" people? You think fun should be doled out to only a select minority, and the rest of us should be grateful to play out the roles of peasant or serf?

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I want a world where I can determine if I am a hero or not...

And therein lies the proverbial rub.

If you get to determine whether or not you're a "hero", what about me? Do I get that choice? What about my next door neighbor? Does he get that choice? Assuming we do, what if we all choose to play the "hero"? Then what? By your reasoning, oh noes, none of us are "teh special"!

You cut my statement in half. You don't get to chose anything, but your actions do. If you are an ass to people, you will get the reputation of being an ass. If you are awesome at what you do and to other people, you will get a reputation as being awesome. If you are mediocre, you won't get a reputation.

...where I gain a reputation on the server based on my actions and my interactions with others, not by having some NPC blow smoke up my ass and telling me I'm the man.

What's to prevent you from gaining a reputation on the server based on your actions or interactions with others? Am I missing something here?

Well if you don't need to interact with anyone else to survive, then does it matter?

If it's any consolation, I assure you, if we play together, and you suck, I most definitely won't blow smoke up your ass to the contrary.

Thanks.

Again, I don't think any reasonable person is demanding to forgo character progression in favor of an "I win button". What exactly are you driving at? 

I don't understand what you are asking.

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

 

 

 

 

I just think it is an injustice to the lore to make everyone a Jedi and make them equal in power to everyone else. The thing that makes Jedi so special in the movies is the fact that they are special. If everyone is a Jedi, no one is special, and it takes the glitter from the Jedi, and hurts the immersion in the Star Wars world.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Force sensitivity should not be unlockable, but Jedi should.

Why?

I explain below.

I don't want to see 90% of the population running around as Jedi, because no matter what you may say, that still doesn't fit the timeline.

And I don't want to see 90% of the population. Period. Why? Because if it's like any other MMO, a sizable percentage of the population are complete assholes. All I care about are the people I actually ENJOY playing the game with. The rest can go pound sand for all I care.

So why play an MMO at all? Why not go play a single player game, or a co-op game with your friends if you don't want to see anyone else?

Why? Why play an MMO??

Maybe because I have more than just a handful of friends? Maybe because I enjoy a dynamic environment, with content that's constantly being supplemented and expanded? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because I can afford the subscription fee and want to play the game. Unless you're my mother, I don't have to explain my reasons to you.

But again, why does it have to be an MMO? There are tons of multiplayer online games that you can do exactly what you describe without ever having to interact with anyone you don't know. MMORPGs are supposed to be about living in an online world, interacting and relying on people that you don't know(much like the real world), and forming relationships and communities in game to better yourself. But you on the other hand, want to drive the only unique concepts of MMOs out the window and make them all single player online games that charge a subscription fee, which makes no sense.

The games themselves play a huge role in the type of players you find in game. When players don't need anyone else, they have no need to be nice, and no care to, so you see a lot of them be complete assholes. But games where people need each other and need to co-exist, you will find very strong communities form. So perhaps it isn't the people that are the problem, but the games?

There are assholes in every MMO, regardless of game design. Don't kid yourself. The beauty of a system wherein you're not dependent on them is, well, you're NOT dependent on them.

True, there are assholes in every game. The beauty of a game design that I mentioned above was, you have options. Someone is an asshole, don't sell stuff to him. Spread the word that he is a jerk, other people won't interact with him either. He will gain a reputation as an "asshole" and it will follow him. Declare war on his guild and fight it out just because you don't like him

But if you are stuck in a WoW type game, where 90% of people are assholes because they can be with no repricussions, there is nothing you can do. You can't declare war on their guild, you can't spread the word that they are an asshole and get mertchants to stop selling goods to them. They can just be an asshole and not worry about it.

Yes, Jedi were more prominent in the KotOR timeline, but they didn't make up the majority of the population. They should still be rare to some degree.

So should Bounty Hunters, Mandalorians, etc.. I get it. You want a game wherein the lion's share of the playerbase lead less interesting lives than NPCs. All the better for you to lord over them something a little bit more special, a little bit more powerful... right?

Mandalorians weren't rare, there were armies of them. Why would bounty hunters be rare too? There is nothing special that prevents someone from being a bounty hunter.

How many Mandalorians did you see in the movies? How 'bout Bounty Hunters? I don't know about you, but by comparison? I saw a hell of a lot more Jedi.

In the movies, there were only two mandalorians(unless you want to count the clone troopers, which were clones of a mandalorian, then you would have millions of mandalorians, and a lot more than Jedi). But this doesn't take place in the movies, this takes place 3500 years before the movies where mandalorians are prominent(didn't you ever play KotOR?). But lets look at the original trilogy. There were what, 3 Jedi and two Sith shown throughout the entire trilogy? Compare that to the 9-10 Bounty hunters you see(At Jabba's palace, and on the Star Destroyer in Empire Strikes Back) and there are actually more Bounty Hunter's shown than Jedi.

But that doesn't hold in the new trilogy, because George changed the main theme from an epic galactic wide conflict(which was there in both trilogies) to glowsticks and magic. I prefer the original movies though.

But, you lost me on the last part.

When it comes to lore, that gets a little tricky. Jedi were supposed to start training at a very early age. Now unless you start the game as a child, it really doesn't make sense for ANYONE to "start" as a Jedi at level 1. why would a 20ish+ year old be a complete joke of a Jedi if he has been training all of his life? So if you think of it this way, then making Jedi unlockable isn't much different than starting as a Jedi when it comes to breaking lore. Besides, not the first time a Star Wars game has crapped all over it's lore for the sake of Jedi anyway.

Do yourself a favor; stop watching Naruto and Dragon Ball Z to derive your Jedi lore.

I have never watched either of those, and I've never even heard of Naruto(If it is anime that's why, I think anime is pretty gay)

You may want to reevaluate your position on that. From the sounds of things, they may be right up your alley. In all seriousness, you might want to at least consider checking out Afro Samurai. Honestly, I think you'd dig it.

I'll pass. The only anime I ever liked was Pokemon back in my younger years. Beyond that, I've never found the appeal to anime at all.

No levelheaded person is expecting to be Yoda or Mace Windu fresh out of the tutorial. That would neither be authentic to the IP, or good for game balance.

Well I guess we can agree on something. But still, if Jedi are starter class, and you claim that they need to be trained since they are younglings, then does it make sense for an early 20's Jedi that has been training all of his life to be a pathetic level 1?

How is it any different than any other profession in a progression-based game? Why is my Wizard pathetic at level 1? Why is my Fighter pathetic at level 1?

Was your wizard training to be a wizard since birth? Not necessarily. How about the fighter? No. But as you claimed before, the lore makes it so that Jedi were training since a young age. So it still doesn't make sense.

So, I think Jedi should be unlocked by accomplishing certain unknown goals. These goals should start a secret and STAY a secret, or possibly randomized for each character created.

I'd really like to see force sensitivity be open to play a role in any character, but full fledged Jedi should be uncommon, but not have much more power than anyone else.

Why should they have *any* more power than anyone else?

Because Jedi were generally more powerful then most people?

Says who?

I saw Jango blast the shit out of a Master Jedi with relative aplomb and ease. He didn't even break a sweat. For that matter, I saw Luke get his ass handed to him by freakin' Ewoks.

But Jengo was the best of the best. You are taking the BEST at what they do from the movies and are trying to apply it to every single person on the server? That doesn't make sense either. These people received hero status because they were so good at what they did, not because they clicked "Create" and were awesome.

Luke didn't even try to fight the ewoks, so that's not a good comparison.

Pick a side here, either you want to enforce the lore or you don't.

I think my opinion is fairly consistent with the lore; a well-skilled (or simply well-prepared) opponent can be every bit as formidable as a Jedi.

Sure, the best of the best in an ordinary profession can be just as good as a Jedi. So are we to assume that every Jedi in the game is a piss poor excuse for a Jedi, and ever other class that plays is assumed to be the best of the best? That doesn't make sense, and doesn't seem like Star Wars to me. You claim you want to enforce the lore, but then want every class to be equal in power, which Jedi weren't. Again, you aren't being consistent and need to pick a side.

Did you watch the films? Did you? With the exception of Empire Strikes Back, at least one Jedi dies in EVERY movie.

On the contrary, the Tauntaun was actually a Jedi in disguise. He froze to death

Hell, in some cases, they die by the score. Please, stop equating Jedi with "over nine thousaaaaand power level" demigods.

But, don't look at the fact that Jedi died, but HOW they died. Usually to either A) Other Jedi, or B) being vastly outnumbered, or C) being taken by surprise(Although I wonder how you take a Jedi by surprise. Apparently Yoda is the only true Jedi that can sense something). No, not all Jedi were Mace Windu's, or Yoda's, but they were generally stronger then the average soldier.

By all means, anyone eager to pay $15 a month to play an "average soldier" can knock themselves out. Personally? That's not what I'm interested in.

Then go play a single player game where you get to be the Hero and don't have to pay anything a month. How will you be the hero in an MMO? Because every NPC says you are, and you get extraordinary power compared to the NPC's, but average power compared to every other player? In that case, everyone is the hero, so  no one is because everyone is exactly the same.

Where in, if you are playing an average soldier, everything in the world around you makes sense. Everyone else is an average soldier, so everyone being equal in power makes sense. You are average to the NPC's, so the NPC's ordering you to go kill a bunch of rats makes sense. Killing rats isn't hero work.

Just look at the little Jedi that George Lucas' son played(pretty sure it was his son) in episode 3. He was like 14 and took out quite a few clone troopers before he was  killed.

Yes, how convenient. George Lucas' own son put up quite a fight before getting clobbered. But he still was killed, wasn't he? And as I recall, most of his little buddies weren't so valiant.

You are missing the point. He was a young Jedi, and took out a bunch of non-Jedi before he was finally overtaken. Look at Anakin in episode 2. He demolishes a whole camp of Sand people at a very young age, when he was considerably less powerful(Ahhh Duku my armmmmm!!!!). My point is that the average Jedi is more powerful than the average non-Jedi, but you seem to just be ignoring this obvious fact.

It's completely valid to expect other playable professions to be just as self-sufficent, just as powerful, and just as deadly as Jedi... especially player Jedi.

I agree.

So what's the problem then?

There is no problem if we just assume that every player Jedi is a piss poor Jedi. But what about if we had a force ranking system where some People could become Masters, and be slightly more powerful. Surely you won't expect a Master Jedi to be the same power as Joe Blow commando would you?

But, we all know where this game is heading. Jedi is going to be a starter class, because EVERYONE HAS to be a "hero". But wheneveryone is a hero, no one is. And when everyone is the same, no one is special.

/sigh.

What are you proposing, a caste system? A lottery to determine who gets to play "hero" and who doesn't? Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) eagerly pay $15 a month merely for the "privilege" of boosting the egos of a handful of "special" people? You think fun should be doled out to only a select minority, and the rest of us should be grateful to play out the roles of peasant or serf?

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I want a world where I can determine if I am a hero or not...

And therein lies the proverbial rub.

If you get to determine whether or not you're a "hero", what about me? Do I get that choice? What about my next door neighbor? Does he get that choice? Assuming we do, what if we all choose to play the "hero"? Then what? By your reasoning, oh noes, none of us are "teh special"!

You cut my statement in half. You don't get to chose anything, but your actions do. If you are an ass to people, you will get the reputation of being an ass. If you are awesome at what you do and to other people, you will get a reputation as being awesome. If you are mediocre, you won't get a reputation.

...where I gain a reputation on the server based on my actions and my interactions with others, not by having some NPC blow smoke up my ass and telling me I'm the man.

What's to prevent you from gaining a reputation on the server based on your actions or interactions with others? Am I missing something here?

Well if you don't need to interact with anyone else to survive, then does it matter?

If it's any consolation, I assure you, if we play together, and you suck, I most definitely won't blow smoke up your ass to the contrary.

Thanks.

Again, I don't think any reasonable person is demanding to forgo character progression in favor of an "I win button". What exactly are you driving at? 

I don't understand what you are asking.

EDIT:

I just thought of something that would be pretty funny. Since we all know this game is going to have levels(god forbid an MMO doesn't! How will I know I am doing well???), it would be really funny, fitting, and cool if people that created a Jedi started out as a child at like level -50, and had to grind through extra levels to max out. That would be both lore fitting, and population controlling. Huh.

 

 

 

 

 

I just think it is an injustice to the lore to make everyone a Jedi and make them equal in power to everyone else. The thing that makes Jedi so special in the movies is the fact that they are special. If everyone is a Jedi, no one is special, and it takes the glitter from the Jedi, and hurts the immersion in the Star Wars world.

You are correct and incorrect at the same time. In the timeline of Vader and the Emperor and all of the movies your reasoning is spot on.

In the Old Republic timeline, in which this game is based, there are thousands of force weilders and most are not that special.

Now hopefully in TOR, you can acquire the abiltiy to become that special jedi/sith and have more power, just as hopefully all the other non force classes will able to do the same.

This is the reason that specualtion without any real inforamtion is so damaging when trying to build a community. The little and we all know it is very little, information and video we have seen. We are still pretty much in the dark on how things will actually work in TOR.

Originally posted by musicmann

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I just think it is an injustice to the lore to make everyone a Jedi and make them equal in power to everyone else. The thing that makes Jedi so special in the movies is the fact that they are special. If everyone is a Jedi, no one is special, and it takes the glitter from the Jedi, and hurts the immersion in the Star Wars world.

 

 

You are correct and incorrect at the same time. In the timeline of Vader and the Emperor and all of the movies your reasoning is spot on.

In the Old Republic timeline, in which this game is based, there are thousands of force weilders and most are not that special.

Now hopefully in TOR, you can acquire the abiltiy to become that special jedi/ sith and have more power, just as hopefully all the other non force classes will able to do the same.

This is the reason that specualtion without any real inforamtion is so damaging when trying to build a communtiy. The little and we all know it is very little, information and video we have seen. We are still pretty much in the dark on how things will actually work in TOR.

That's a good point. In all honesty, I would love to see force yielding be common, with people given the ability(along with the effort and time) to turn that force ability into being a Jedi from which they would gain slightly more power than the average class. I would also like to see an alternative path for other non-force yielding players to say, train as a mandalorian, gaining some power in combat in the same way a Jedi does. Making Jedi the only powerful class would fall into the same problem SWG had where everyone was grinding for Jedi and thus became Jedi. But giving alternate paths to  power would be the best option in my book.

I think there should be 2 methods. Start as a jedi..assume you're trained since an early age...and maybe recieve some bonus new traits or points added to skills...because of this. The other path would be to choose any other character...and the game randomly chooses force sensitivity and introduces an option to undergo training after you've satisfied pre-set conditions...the further along  you are in your chosen profession/class..the more it will cost to raise your jedi skills....then at a certain point you would become full jedi and skill cost would normalize...you might be able to retain some early force powers up to a set skill level but continue as your initial class. The jedi skills you keep could not be raised after you choose to revert back to a bounty hunter..or whatever....just some ideas. No matter how it is done ..it should be based strictly on the metachlorian content each individual contains.........................okay...just kidding on that last statement.

If Jedi/sith can be use from the start.. this game won't last long.. crafters will be useless... as 90% of players will be a jedi.. and all they need is a robe, a light saber and some crystal found in a cave.. where 10k others jedi went there by a quest from the same master...

Perfect MMO would be... No grind, no quest that 10k others accomplished before you ,  only one character, no class.. so you become what you want exactly... an mercenary good at crafting or a crafter mining his own ore...

RPG mean Role Playing Game... it isn't a role playing game anymore if 10k others are doing the same shit as you...

But the mass always get what they want and get stolen their money with a game with nice graphic and poor and simple gameplay...

well i can see a hybrid WoW/SWG style of unlock would be a good idea but really, its a Star wars game, it HAS to have Jedi in it and (they want to be maintstream about it so) it will be a starter class.

my (emphasis on my) opinion is that once a character has reached a certain level (like in WoW) they can attempt a lore driven questline that is quite difficult (not as crazy as the SWG hologrind, but difficult enough to warrant signifigant time spent doing it) to unlock the class which will then start 1/4 or 1/2 way to max level (a choice would make it all the better).  That is how i would do it.