Originally posted by Xennith

yes, im an eve player. because this is the eve section, and i am posting in it and do regularly. fantastic deduction there.

whats wrong with your attitude is that you dont play eve, but have come to the eve online board simply to troll, insult people and generally act like a bit of a douche. you might have asked legitimate questions during your trial, but i have a feeling that they way you asked them probably wasnt quite as reasonable as you would have us believe. just judging from your attitude here.

Um yeah...Be content in that you're the perfect Eve player and a shining example of the Eve community. Why do you read and even bother to reply on what you consider a troll thread anyway if it pisses you off so much??? I don't see the crying about trolling Eve when almost every Eve player take any and every opportunity they got to blast WoW anyway. Yeah, you done that too.

After playing the trail for about a week I can see this is a troll thread. But there are some legit complaints, the chat UI blows and the real community, the guys outside of the rookie help channel and a few nice peeps in the forums, ARE full of scammers and gankers. The game do have some real issues also, like the giant gulf between what it teaches you by doing the first few missions and the REAL game in low sec. But even that logic fails because Eve is like no other MMO I've played before.

In the end Eve is what what it is, and that is what make it so great. In this post WoW world you just have to admire a game that is completely and utterly uncompromising in it's principles in all regards...even when it is flawed. It also might be wise to consider the fact that some people love Eve for the very same reasons that you hate it.

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by Xennith

i think your conclusion is wrong. EVE actually has the best community ive ever seen in an online game. Sure, theres always going to be a few bad apples and in a game like eve there are a few ego problems.

compare the eve forums to the WoW ones. one contains helpful advice, one contains "l2p noob".

we get a lot of trolls and whiners here, eve doesnt appeal to everyone, its a harsh game and you will get no sympathy if you do something stupid or ask for a niche game to be made mainstream.

im sorry that your eve experience wasnt all you hoped for, best of luck in your next game.

 

Right...

 

Random trialer:  You should be able to exit your ship, level faster and why can I train only one toon at a time...

Eve community: Go back to WoW, noob.

 

Edit: Why the hell are you rewarded for not playing the game anyway? Why do I have to wait ages to achieve awesomeness and blasting the hell outta shit with awesome lasers, photon torpedos and shit? I play a god damn space mmo to blast stuff to smithereens...in space...with lasers and stuff...Not to watch the equivalent progress bar of watching paint dry grow yet another inch...God damn it.

If some random trialer ( aka WoW n00b ? ) joins EVE Online and starts telling how everything should be made easy / mainstreamn, essentially wowifiying the last sandbox bastion in existence, then yes, we will tell them, go back to WoW n00b ...

However, if they try to get into the game, we will help them, and there can be good discussions be had about changing certain aspects of the game, as long as it improves the spirit of the game.

About the few points you mentioned :

1. You should be able to exit your ship

Sure, it would be a nice expansion, and, oh, look, Ambulation is comming Q4 2009 ...

2. Level faster

Well, we can argue that the newbies should get another boost, however, the veterans will always be ahead in horizontal character development, as a newbie, you can match them vertically and with combat experience. If you look for example to be a trader, it does not take that long to max the needed trade skills, it will probably take more time to get the knowledge to exploit these skills to their fullest potential ...

Yes, currently it takes about a year to fly a T2 battleship ( blackops ) with good / max support skills. But that is ( currently ) top of the line in sub-capital combat training ( yes, Blackops is a special ship, just using it as an example, as it has the highest skill requirement  )... And you can settle for T1 battleship or T2 battlecruiser and be very effective in various roles.

Meanwhile, you get combat experience in frigates or cruisers, which are affordable for you, and learn about the game, there is alot to learn, my young padawan ...

And how long did it take one in WoW to be fully geared from MC and then BWL if you started brand new from lvl 1?

3. You can only train 1 toon at a time because it is a time based skill training system, and CCP does not wan't you to be able to auto train 3 characters at the same time ( on 1 sub ), because that would diminish the decisions you have to make in the current system. It is pretty logical imho. You should compare this to active leveling, you can't level 3 characters at the same time, can you? They also encourage active playing, that is why they removed Ghost Training and why you have to switch skills in game, and can not queue skills.

There used to be a combo system of active XP and time based skill training in the old days, I think I would have liked such a system, but I am ok with the current system as well.

Originally posted by Kexin

After playing the trail for about a week I can see this is a troll thread. But there are some legit complaints, the chat UI blows and the real community, the guys outside of the rookie help channel and a few nice peeps in the forums, ARE full of scammers and gankers. The game do have some real issues also, like the giant gulf between what it teaches you by doing the first few missions and the REAL game in low sec. But even that logic fails because Eve is like no other MMO I've played before.

In the end Eve is what what it is, and that is what make it so great. In this post WoW world you just have to admire a game that is completely and utterly uncompromising in it's principles in all regards...even when it is flawed. It also might be wise to consider the fact that some people love Eve for the very same reasons that you hate it.

Well said.

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by Xennith

i think your conclusion is wrong. EVE actually has the best community ive ever seen in an online game. Sure, theres always going to be a few bad apples and in a game like eve there are a few ego problems.

compare the eve forums to the WoW ones. one contains helpful advice, one contains "l2p noob".

we get a lot of trolls and whiners here, eve doesnt appeal to everyone, its a harsh game and you will get no sympathy if you do something stupid or ask for a niche game to be made mainstream.

im sorry that your eve experience wasnt all you hoped for, best of luck in your next game.

 

Right...

 

Random trialer:  You should be able to exit your ship, level faster and why can I train only one toon at a time...

Eve community: Go back to WoW, noob.

 

Edit: Why the hell are you rewarded for not playing the game anyway? Why do I have to wait ages to achieve awesomeness and blasting the hell outta shit with awesome lasers, photon torpedos and shit? I play a god damn space mmo to blast stuff to smithereens...in space...with lasers and stuff...Not to watch the equivalent progress bar of watching paint dry grow yet another inch...God damn it.

 

If some random trialer ( aka WoW n00b ? ) joins EVE Online and starts telling how everything should be made easy / mainstreamn, essentially wowifiying the last sandbox bastion in existence, then yes, we will tell them, go back to WoW n00b ...

This is why alot of people think the Eve crowd are elitist. Even people who haven't played WoW got this crap thrown at them. Better not disturb the status quo

However, if they try to get into the game, we will help them, and there can be good discussions be had about changing certain aspects of the game, as long as it improves the spirit of the game.

That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

About the few points you mentioned :

1. You should be able to exit your ship

Sure, it would be a nice expansion, and, oh, look, Ambulation is comming Q4 2009 ...

Um yeah...Too little, too late. Rather wait and play STO or JGE or any of the other titles in the horizon. For some reason Eve actually managed to make the most awesome thing space, utterly boring

2. Level faster

Well, we can argue that the newbies should get another boost, however, the veterans will always be ahead in horizontal character development, as a newbie, you can match them vertically and with combat experience. If you look for example to be a trader, it does not take that long to max the needed trade skills, it will probably take more time to get the knowledge to exploit these skills to their fullest potential ...

Yes, currently it takes about a year to fly a T2 battleship ( blackops ) with good / max support skills. But that is ( currently ) top of the line in sub-capital combat training ( yes, Blackops is a special ship, just using it as an example, as it has the highest skill requirement  )... And you can settle for T1 battleship or T2 battlecruiser and be very effective in various roles.

Meanwhile, you get combat experience in frigates or cruisers, which are affordable for you, and learn about the game, there is alot to learn, my young padawan ...

And how long did it take one in WoW to be fully geared from MC and then BWL if you started brand new from lvl 1?

That I can answer cause I was in full t2 when tbc hit the scene. I played the game for about a year before I had that. I raided maybe 6 months of that time. I was a holy priest though and raided alot.

3. You can only train 1 toon at a time because it is a time based skill training system, and CCP does not wan't you to be able to auto train 3 characters at the same time ( on 1 sub ), because that would diminish the decisions you have to make in the current system. It is pretty logical imho. You should compare this to active leveling, you can't level 3 characters at the same time, can you? They also encourage active playing, that is why they removed Ghost Training and why you have to switch skills in game, and can not queue skills.

Well, the big problem with how Eve do skills is that it doesn't matter the squat if I play the game 24/7 or just log in once a week for 5 minutes just to change skills. You're rewarded for not playing the game!!! The isk I can just buy from some damn farmer. So I actually don't have to play the game to fly a better ship, with bigger pewpews and so on. It's like those people that sell powerleveled toons in those other games. Over here it just take longer time. So I don't have to play the game to play the game...right...

There used to be a combo system of active XP and time based skill training in the old days, I think I would have liked such a system, but I am ok with the current system as well.

I would've liked that. Faster training if you're logged in, huge bonuses for the training if you actually play the game. As it stands now, it doesn't matter if you play the game or not. You will progress as much as the next person beside you on the skills.

 

It's not often I agree with Yathzee in No Punctation over at the Escapist, but his experience with Eve mirrors mine to the letter. Well, his was better and he bloody hate mmo's. He think they are a waste of time and money.

Originally posted by slask777

Um yeah...Be content in that you're the perfect Eve player and a shining example of the Eve community. Why do you read and even bother to reply on what you consider a troll thread anyway if it pisses you off so much??? I don't see the crying about trolling Eve when almost every Eve player take any and every opportunity they got to blast WoW anyway.

never said this was a troll thread, i said you were a troll. subtle difference. also not pissed off, mearly pointing out that the eve community is actually not that bad, especially if you were to for example compare it to the one example of the WoW community we have in this thread.

Pubbie tears ITT.

What inspired you to make suggestions about the game? You don't seem to have experienced very much of it. Every time I see someone complain that a community was hostile to their suggestions, they give no indication that they made a serious assessment of that community beforehand. It's more of an innocent, childlike horror that anyone would respond with hostility to anything at all.

Perhaps you have not yet seen a good game ruined by helpful suggestions. Don't worry, it will come.

What exactly do you think is outmoded about the term "carebear"? PVP restrictions are more prevalent today in MMOs than ever before. Players' sense of entitlement to avoid PVP (and be showered with substitutions for its rewards) is at an all time high.

And yes, the reason the main point of Eve is collecting ISK may have something to do with the fact that one can buy spaceships with it.

At least we can be sure it's not your attitude.

When I saw the topic I figured it would be a simple click -> "Obvious Troll Is Obvious" -> Post Message but...

I disagree with the OP, most reasons already stated above.  I still consider this to be a mild troll thread, no offense meant to the OP.  My reasoning is based on my experience on MMORPG.com's forums for the past 3.5 years as well as a miriad of other gaming based forums.  Someone posts something in a specific game's forum that disagrees with the concept of said game not being the best game EVAR!!! 

So, follow me here...  There's a fawk ton of people that pay to play online games.  Most of them have settled on a game they like.  Very few of them ever bother to read forums based on their game, official or not.  Even fewer of those folks ever bother to post in said forums.  This means that those that do post are, likely  -  as I'm not going to claim to have actual numbers, pretty much hardcore fans of said games. 

Then you have folks that have tried the game and still like to keep tabs on it from time to time via forums even though they no longer play, regardless the reason.  I'd say (opinion) that would be about a 50/50 split of folks who liked it but not enough to keep playing and those who hated it and don't understand why people play.

And of course you have those that are new to the game that want to ask questions, typically questions that are easiest answered via official forums, player guides or just good ole experience in-game. 

Yes, this is a rather large generalization but I believe, again using my time on these forums as my basis, that I've received a decent overview of the "community" around here over the years. 

Okay.  Scenario - new person to the game asks a basic question that is easily answered - likely as easy as typing it into google (http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com).  New person posted this question in a forum where mostly hardcore fans live and breath.  Random hardcore fanboi blows up at new person.  Then a former player that still lurks blows up at the hardcore poster, then another hardcore poster chimes in - and the snowball starts.

HA!  TLDR?  Meh, diaf.  I'm making a point here and I don't think the OPs point is fair.  I'm not saying that what he has stated is untrue - I just don't think it's valid based on what I've said.  I removed my sig that listed all the MMOs I've played but I've been there done that with alot of them, including CS/UT/QUAKE1 way back when.  This is how forums have always been, this is how they will always be.  Take anything posted with a grain of salt - if you ignore the BS you can normally find a gem or two in the rough.

gl hf

o7

Hilarious. The OP starts a thread talking about how terrible the EVE community is and the only troll on the thread is an Anti-EVE troll.

So Slask777.... get over yourself already. If you didn't play past the trial then what is the point in bitching and moaning about it here? You don't like EVE. Okay, I am perfectly fine with that, there are alot of games I didn't enjoy for various reasons. Go play a game you enjoy, and remember - not all games should be fun for every player - otherwise they would all be different flavors of the same game and thus stagnating the growth of the MMO industry.

If every kid loved football, what would happen to basketball or volleyball?

If I don't like a game I move on and find one I enjoy, I don't go to some forum for that game and waste my time arguing about what I didn't like about the game... that would make me sound like an idiot.

Keep in mind... you don't like the game but 250,000 people do like it and that number is still growing.

So... maybe it's you and not EVE?

Erm... EVE actually has a very diverse community. Within it there are an entire range and scope of maturity levels. Saying EVE's community is more or less mature than any other is farcical at best. I've played every major MMORPG out there and I'm telling you that there's really no difference from game to game in the 'quality' or 'maturity' of their communities (with the possible exception of WoW, which has a very large number of younger players for whatever reason)

At any rate the bottom line is:
If you never leave the 'newbie corp' (the starter corp that you're automatically placed in when you start the game) you will never get away from the vast majority of the more immature players. Once you join player corporations and alliances you will see that EVE becomes far more mature and the 'mixture' of 'immature' and 'mature' players tends to thin out and it's mostly 'mature' players remaining (unless, of course, you're crazy enough to join Goonswarm which is an alliance run by the community of SomethingAwful, need I say more?).

At any rate:
On FORUMS even a 'mature' community eventually gets sick of hearing the same troll posts over and over again and eventually starts posting angrily towards them.

How many times have we seen the same posts from people claiming that "EVE sucks because you can't do XYZ" only to have dozens of vets and even newer players totally debunk them? I can't count the number of times I've debunked various troll/rumor/hate threads in the past. It's gotten to the point where I rarely even respond to them anymore. But others get pissed, rightfully so, especially when the career forum trolls come in here with drivvel and start crapping all over the forums. The community gets ticked and responds with flames.

Bottom line:
With a very few notable exceptions (WoW, Guildwars) most MMORPG's have pretty much the same level of 'maturity' in their communities. And most of them are fairly mature, in actuality. After all, the average age of the players of MMORPG's is between 25 and 40. They aren't exactly 'kids games' so the level of maturity in them tends to be a bit higher.

That's not to say that MMO's don't have their fair share of immature idiots. Just that you have a better chance than not of finding mature players in a slightly older playerbase.

Are EVE players more mature than others? No.... but they aren't any less mature either.

Do EVE players get fed up with the crap posted about the game they love? Yes.

One other note - experiences in life are all subjective to how you view the world.  You can like or dislike something, understand or not understand something, love or hate, etc etc and so on.  Unless you are discussing the only 100% PROVEN FACT which is death  - you are discussing your opinion and there will always be someone who disagrees with your opinion.

This all falls back on the classic, "Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics..."

Cheers!

Wow Slask you got one Helluva Axe to grind. It's fine if someone doesn't like or get EVE. But why, oh why must you continuously spout such hate. Why the negative vibes? Chill, grab a cup of lemonade and go with the flow. I've seen bad and good in EVE, it depends on perspective and most importantly of all, it depends on attitude. Regardless if you see something good or bad its in the attitude. And quite frankly yours, my friend, is in the low possibly even negative department atm.

Community as a whole is not horrible but there are some griefers who do prey on new folks. Thats why there is such a cry for a pve server by some. Anyone know if the Icelandic Goverment can nationalize CCP off the top of there head.

From what I've experienced so far, the community is helpful, mature, able to have good political discussions (Corp chat ftw!) and, generally, nice. Even on sites like this, guys like Kyleran (Kylerian? Sorry!) and metalhead90 don't really show the attitude you described. However, I haven't been to the official forums yet...

Originally posted by slask777

That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

Ah, I see the root of your issues with EVE. Somone gave you the EVE equivalent of a schoolyard wedgie and you've been bitter and angry ever since.

I'll admit, we're a unforgiving to people who join the game without doing research and a whole lot of reading before even trying the game, who then in turn come in the game or our forums and complain about what's wrong with the game.

EVE's a bit like the US Marines.  Difficult, takes a lot of work and and there is a sense of pride for those players who achieve something that few others can accomplish. 

Go make fun of some Marines sometime and tell them about the flaws in their training or organaization and see how well thats received.  Same thing here.

But back to the OP.

Yes, we tend to be a bit defensive in these forums, espcially when people bring us "suggestions" for improvement that we've discussed/refuted countless of times.  Mostly because they involve changes that would take away from the game and why we play it.

Take the real time training.  Its a feature that most of us love.  Level sets those of us who work for a living and can only play 12 hours a week with the player who has 40 hours or more. Sure, they can earn more ISK than us, but the GTC system lets us stay competitive and play the game the way we enjoy it.

Come to the forums and suggest they be changed and your going to meet with fierce opposition, and we'll tell you to go back to WOW or some other game that has the game mechancis that you enjoy.

Ive never had a bad experience with the Eve Community. Every game has its rectal orifaces. I only encountered a few and I dont make it a habit of monitoring lots of channels. I do my own thing and help my corps.

If you think this game's community is bad wait if Darkfall  is released,,,,,,

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slask777

That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

 

Ah, I see the root of your issues with EVE. Somone gave you the EVE equivalent of a schoolyard wedgie and you've been bitter and angry ever since.

I'll admit, we're a unforgiving to people who join the game without doing research and a whole lot of reading before even trying the game, who then in turn come in the game or our forums and complain about what's wrong with the game.

EVE's a bit like the US Marines.  Difficult, takes a lot of work and and there is a sense of pride for those players who achieve something that few others can accomplish. 

Go make fun of some Marines sometime and tell them about the flaws in their training or organaization and see how well thats received.  Same thing here.

But back to the OP.

Yes, we tend to be a bit defensive in these forums, espcially when people bring us "suggestions" for improvement that we've discussed/refuted countless of times.  Mostly because they involve changes that would take away from the game and why we play it.

Take the real time training.  Its a feature that most of us love.  Level sets those of us who work for a living and can only play 12 hours a week with the player who has 40 hours or more. Sure, they can earn more ISK than us, but the GTC system lets us stay competitive and play the game the way we enjoy it.

Come to the forums and suggest they be changed and your going to meet with fierce opposition, and we'll tell you to go back to WOW or some other game that has the game mechancis that you enjoy.

 

 Cant have said this any better! Especially about the Marines !!!!

Originally posted by Krayzjoel

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slask777

That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

 

Ah, I see the root of your issues with EVE. Somone gave you the EVE equivalent of a schoolyard wedgie and you've been bitter and angry ever since.

I'll admit, we're a unforgiving to people who join the game without doing research and a whole lot of reading before even trying the game, who then in turn come in the game or our forums and complain about what's wrong with the game.

EVE's a bit like the US Marines.  Difficult, takes a lot of work and and there is a sense of pride for those players who achieve something that few others can accomplish. 

Go make fun of some Marines sometime and tell them about the flaws in their training or organaization and see how well thats received.  Same thing here.

But back to the OP.

Yes, we tend to be a bit defensive in these forums, espcially when people bring us "suggestions" for improvement that we've discussed/refuted countless of times.  Mostly because they involve changes that would take away from the game and why we play it.

Take the real time training.  Its a feature that most of us love.  Level sets those of us who work for a living and can only play 12 hours a week with the player who has 40 hours or more. Sure, they can earn more ISK than us, but the GTC system lets us stay competitive and play the game the way we enjoy it.

Come to the forums and suggest they be changed and your going to meet with fierce opposition, and we'll tell you to go back to WOW or some other game that has the game mechancis that you enjoy.

 

 

 Cant have said this any better! Especially about the Marines !!!!

Uncle Sams Missguided Children are and always have been a " Department of the Navy " !

Originally posted by Elsabolts

Originally posted by Krayzjoel

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slask777

That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

 

Ah, I see the root of your issues with EVE. Somone gave you the EVE equivalent of a schoolyard wedgie and you've been bitter and angry ever since.

I'll admit, we're a unforgiving to people who join the game without doing research and a whole lot of reading before even trying the game, who then in turn come in the game or our forums and complain about what's wrong with the game.

EVE's a bit like the US Marines.  Difficult, takes a lot of work and and there is a sense of pride for those players who achieve something that few others can accomplish. 

Go make fun of some Marines sometime and tell them about the flaws in their training or organaization and see how well thats received.  Same thing here.

But back to the OP.

Yes, we tend to be a bit defensive in these forums, espcially when people bring us "suggestions" for improvement that we've discussed/refuted countless of times.  Mostly because they involve changes that would take away from the game and why we play it.

Take the real time training.  Its a feature that most of us love.  Level sets those of us who work for a living and can only play 12 hours a week with the player who has 40 hours or more. Sure, they can earn more ISK than us, but the GTC system lets us stay competitive and play the game the way we enjoy it.

Come to the forums and suggest they be changed and your going to meet with fierce opposition, and we'll tell you to go back to WOW or some other game that has the game mechancis that you enjoy.

 

 

 Cant have said this any better! Especially about the Marines !!!!

 
 

Uncle Sams Missguided Children are and always have been a " Department of the Navy " !

I call you when we need a ride to blow up some rectal orifaces!!! Navy Rocks!

---

Originally posted by Elsabolts

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Originally posted by Krayzjoel

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Originally posted by Kyleran

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Originally posted by slask777

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That ain't my experience with the game. I was ridiculed like a worthless piece of shit cause I didn't knew jack about the game. Then I figured I had to run missions till I puked or mined till I grew grey hairs and figured that the game was the equivalent of watching paint dry, designing spreadsheets or live in a big, nerdy universe full of other nerds that for some reason hated me cause I wasn't as 'awesome' as them. Crap, even the WoW community treated me better and we all know how shit they are.

---

---

 
Ah, I see the root of your issues with EVE. Somone gave you the EVE equivalent of a schoolyard wedgie and you've been bitter and angry ever since.
I'll admit, we're a unforgiving to people who join the game without doing research and a whole lot of reading before even trying the game, who then in turn come in the game or our forums and complain about what's wrong with the game.
EVE's a bit like the US Marines.  Difficult, takes a lot of work and and there is a sense of pride for those players who achieve something that few others can accomplish. 
Go make fun of some Marines sometime and tell them about the flaws in their training or organaization and see how well thats received.  Same thing here.
But back to the OP.
Yes, we tend to be a bit defensive in these forums, espcially when people bring us "suggestions" for improvement that we've discussed/refuted countless of times.  Mostly because they involve changes that would take away from the game and why we play it.
Take the real time training.  Its a feature that most of us love.  Level sets those of us who work for a living and can only play 12 hours a week with the player who has 40 hours or more. Sure, they can earn more ISK than us, but the GTC system lets us stay competitive and play the game the way we enjoy it.
Come to the forums and suggest they be changed and your going to meet with fierce opposition, and we'll tell you to go back to WOW or some other game that has the game mechancis that you enjoy.
 

---

 
 Cant have said this any better! Especially about the Marines !!!!

---

 
 
Uncle Sams Missguided Children are and always have been a " Department of the Navy " !

---

Well... after all MARINES stands for:
My
Ass
Rides
In
Navy
Equipment
Sir