"Endgame is a failure in the body of a MMO."

So are item rewards.

Originally posted by Josher

Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=)

I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear.  They all have ends.  A start and finish.  I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=)

Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun.  THATs why millions play it.  If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played.  They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind.  WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow.  EQ didn't really have quests.  Neither did UO.  You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level.  No point.  No direction.  No purpose.  BORING!!  Tedious.

If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.

Yes, it can't be that WoW has brainwashed a whole generation of gamers and developers into creatingand playing all MMOs the exact same way. It is successful, yes, but only because players are conditioned that loot is the only thing that matters, so much so that they will sit in 10 miniute queues to play a 2 miniute group duel in a 5' x 5' box just to get them.  The only reason WoW is so popular is because it is convenient and easy. For alot of players that's not much fun at all. If there were no epic loot drops from raid bosses, players wouln't feel compelled to participate in half of the endgame raids offered. Talk about boring and tedious.

endgame

OR

make a game where content can be repeated at any time, a level free game

Originally posted by ketrine

endgame

OR

make a game where content can be repeated at any time, a level free game

There is never going to be a level free game. Your always going to be progressing at something. Theme park games you level by level of character. Sandbox games you level your skills.

I'm not sure I understand all of the opinions in this thread, but in my own opinion.

Endgame for me is the progression from the offline rpgs I played before I started on WoW. Back in the days when Final Fantasy and Wild Arms rules my world, I remember enjoying a beautifully constructed story (similar to the lore in World of Warcraft, something which I follow in certain places), development of character (which is something I do believe is missing: however I am not too worried about this) and finally, the big tough monsters which I face as the game draws to a close.

The best example I can give of this is Ultimecia from Final Fantasy 8. When I first did this fight I just thought "Wow, this is absolutely beautiful". And it was, everything from the music, the shifting background, Ultimecia herself and all of her abilities, I was blown away. It was epic as I had been building myself up for it throughout the game.

For me this is carried on in mmorpgs (well, the only one I play, World of Warcraft). Before Kael'Thas, or Illadin, or Kil'Jaeden, or any boss we are about to kill, I have followed the lore of what has happened to them, my guild have discussed this boss and told us what we are going to be doing... and then we go in and wipe for days/weeks until they finally go down. And I can honestly say I have never been disappointed, even during the weeks of wiping. Every one of the "endgame" bosses for me so far have been more than I could have expected them to be.

And this is the progression I see from offline rpgs, the epic is still there, but this time I'm experiencing it with other people at the same time. 

Sorry if I've waffled off topic here, to something which wasn't what was meant to be being discussed in this topic, but this is how I see endgame and I unfortunetly think I wouldn't be playing world of warcraft if it wasn't for this :)

Originally posted by Josher

Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=)

I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear.  They all have ends.  A start and finish.  I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=)

Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun.  THATs why millions play it.  If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played.  They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind.  WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow.  EQ didn't really have quests.  Neither did UO.  You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level.  No point.  No direction.  No purpose.  BORING!!  Tedious.

If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.

I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol

Originally posted by x_rast_x

The only reason we have a concept of 'end-game' is because some smart people at Blizzard figured out that people play MMOs to play with other people, and the only things levels are really good for is seperating people.  So they put all the fun stuff at the the level cap, sped up the leveling process to the point where if it went any faster it'd start breaking stuff, and now we have a whole crop of people who know nothing but 'end-game'

End-game is an after-the-fact fix to a broken concept.

EQ had an end game way before WoW was ever laucnhed. To this day, I still believe EQ's end game slaughters WoW's end game. The AA system helped with that alot. But as for WoW goes, you are right about their end game. End game is not a broken concept. People just call it endgame because its what you do at max level.

Originally posted by Vistaakah

Endgame= Game Over.. Generally speaking i hit max level in whatever the game is and cancel my account because of sheer boredom and unwillingness to roll up alts. I'm going to use WOW as an example.

1.) Boring level/grind system where you need nobody to be successful

2.) Static quests. Once you do them with one character they are the same with all others.

3.) Player crafting system is fluff. A good crafting system would be the choice of choices when it came to items in the game even over  the best loot items. Loot shouldn't drop off boss mobs .. Craft items should.

 

WOW is a static roadmap game. Its how it was designed. Start here , finish there with nothing else in between to keep you entertained. Grind and endgame days are over as we veteran players demand far more then a simple endgame so to speak.

Well WoW is the perfect example of this type. End game does not mean its the end of the game, it simply means that is what you will be doing when you have reached maxed level until new content launches. You know, people don't understand that these concepts are made as "new" concepts...When you see EQ having the first end game, and then Wow comes out, they do it differently. Its just a concept that new games use from past games and attempt to improve it. Everything is recycled ideas. I think the best way to fix this is to have the things you do only at end game, while you level. However, when you do level it just builds up little by little to help that motivation factor intact.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Josher

Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=)

I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear.  They all have ends.  A start and finish.  I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=)

Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun.  THATs why millions play it.  If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played.  They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind.  WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow.  EQ didn't really have quests.  Neither did UO.  You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level.  No point.  No direction.  No purpose.  BORING!!  Tedious.

If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.

 

I am going to defend the old school gamers. EverQuest did make the journey fun. It was fun because I was learning the ins and outs of my class, what to do in a group and what not to do, what it takes to be a good player and not. It also taught us how to have a sucessful community that WoW will never have. Obviously WoW was your first mmo. Like someone said before, about the blank staire because EQ and UO didn't market as well or enough as blizzard did. I found my class and time on WoW as a job more than EQ. As an mmo vet my self, WoW takes out the MMO. It's only there at end game. So your telling us that WoW isn't tedious and reptivite? EQ did have quests, but not much. You had to explore and earn for those quests. Thre was no stupid yellow ! over an NPC's head. Sorry, I don't like my hand being held at every thing I do, unless there is a cute women to do it! lol

I would also like to add to this great post in response to Josher. You have to take into consideration EQ had the largest unheard of MMORPG population for it's time. A time when every household could not afford a PC (PCs use to be very costly), not everyone had access to the internet or really had much of a use for it in this time period. Online shopping? People do that? That would have been a comment you may have heard from a lot of folks back in 99'. MMORPGs were still not known that well.

You have to take into consideration the time period when comparing a game that was released in 99' to a game that was released in 04'. Not many years in between but the use of the net and prices of PCs have changed significantly.

Originally posted by skeaser

I know that you don't want this to be a "my game" vs "your game" but I have to agree with what was said previously in regards to AoC.

If I could have a game that gave me an endless (well, nearly, endless is still an impossibility, I think) story where my friends and I are working together and changing the world as it currently is (a la Tortage) I would pay through the nose and probably lose my job.

You will almost always have an "endgame", but if you make the low and middle game feel the same as endgame, well, it's not so bad.

Another example would be WAR. I remember at level 3 or 4 with a witch elf fighting a dragon in a PQ, that's what we need as well. No need to start with boars, rabbits or gnats; welcome to game!...go kill that dragon.

Even better. They should have a chest , right after you log for the first time , waiting for you. Full raid gear inside, and max skill/level potion. Equip those and run around killing dragons and stuff. Who cares about character building and progression, exploring the world, learning the lore, trying to find what drops what and where , and camping for it. We want da loot and da fun.

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

Originally posted by Frostbite05

endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.

Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".

By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.

Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.

And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.

I agree with the OP.

Also I think if you put most of the fun at max level then it just accelerates everyones rush to max.

In games like FFXI it can be a big journey before you can even play some of the character types, and the job system makes it interesting to level new jobs as opposed to just alts.

I remember years back having a discussion with someone in FFXI wondering why we tried so hard to have good gear, because it increased the time farming, and decreased the time levelling together, which was a bit I really enjoyed. It all seemed rather strange. I don't want to rush to an end game

In AoC I was happy to play it casually, and was quite enjoying it until I realised I couldn't really be a gatherer / crafter until I was nearly max level. How dumb is that. I was forced to reach max level to enjoy something which is nothing to do with the 'end-game' which they didn't have anyway.

IMHO MMOs just need plenty of options of things to do and then the endgame is not important. A game does not have to be a sandbox to allow a lot of interesting options for things to do.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by ketrine

endgame

OR

make a game where content can be repeated at any time, a level free game

 

There is never going to be a level free game. Your always going to be progressing at something. Theme park games you level by level of character. Sandbox games you level your skills.

Nah, I disagree.  It depends on how you look at it.  I am sure a game could be made where you can reuse content.  Our minds are so trained to see nothing but levels that it makes it harder for some folks to imagine.  You could even have levels AND reusable content, all you would have to do is make the mob scale to your skill level no matter what it is and that would be the simplest way to do it.  You wouldn't have to scale experience, you could have the entire game to enjoy not just the 5% of the content you will see by flying through your advancement.  In this model, a level 4 could group with a level 40, and experience would be gained as a percent of the total amount of xp instead of a fixed number.  The level 4 could go up against any mob in the game, and the level 40 could go against any mob in the game, but of course if it is a "levels" game the level 40 would have more abilities and armor to protect him, thus a greater chance to win against any given mob.  Even this way you could go anywhere in the game, complete any quest line, and play however you want from day 1.

OR.. you could have a game with no levels, everybody starts out the same and does whatever they want just for kicks because its fun.  I am sure it could be done.  You could make the game item-centric only, and a two day old character with the right clothes can kill a "naked" 5 year old character.  Or you could make the game center around abilities that are looted off of critters or crafted, and you have to either loot or buy or craft the kabillions of abilities in the game that determine whether or not you win in combat.

Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.

Maybe endgame content shouldn't be a focus at all. Maybe developers should focus on providing more conent "along the way" to the endgame.

Originally posted by ketrine

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by ketrine

endgame

OR

make a game where content can be repeated at any time, a level free game

 

There is never going to be a level free game. Your always going to be progressing at something. Theme park games you level by level of character. Sandbox games you level your skills.

 

Nah, I disagree.  It depends on how you look at it.  I am sure a game could be made where you can reuse content.  Our minds are so trained to see nothing but levels that it makes it harder for some folks to imagine.  You could even have levels AND reusable content, all you would have to do is make the mob scale to your skill level no matter what it is and that would be the simplest way to do it.  You wouldn't have to scale experience, you could have the entire game to enjoy not just the 5% of the content you will see by flying through your advancement.  In this model, a level 4 could group with a level 40, and experience would be gained as a percent of the total amount of xp instead of a fixed number.  The level 4 could go up against any mob in the game, and the level 40 could go against any mob in the game, but of course if it is a "levels" game the level 40 would have more abilities and armor to protect him, thus a greater chance to win against any given mob.  Even this way you could go anywhere in the game, complete any quest line, and play however you want from day 1.

OR.. you could have a game with no levels, everybody starts out the same and does whatever they want just for kicks because its fun.  I am sure it could be done.  You could make the game item-centric only, and a two day old character with the right clothes can kill a "naked" 5 year old character.  Or you could make the game center around abilities that are looted off of critters or crafted, and you have to either loot or buy or craft the kabillions of abilities in the game that determine whether or not you win in combat.

Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.

That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.

Different people like different things. I've never gotten to max level in any MMO, I love creating new characters, I played CoX for 4-5 years, never got to end game, which is a good thing because CoX doesn't have the best end game.

A great MMO will cater to the one character person, and the multi char person, fun start, middle and end.

The ultimate solution to end game is to have eventual perma death.
For example, everyone has 40 lives, and that's it. End game problem solved. You brag about the fact the you are still alive or you start a new char. I played a mud like that and it was fun as hell.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by ketrine

Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.

 

That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.

 

I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it.  Why would we want to play a WoW clone?  If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?

Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden.  I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience.  There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed".  Did you work on AoC some?  It has good graphics i hear.

If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity.  You will never have a smash hit if you copycat.  I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different.  This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.

That is my hope anyway...

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

Originally posted by Frostbite05

endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.

Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".

By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.

 

 

Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.

And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.

EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.

Originally posted by ketrine

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by ketrine

Now.. you might be right that there's never going to be a game with no "levels" but not because it can't be done - but because people lack creativity, or lack the desire to break the mold.

 

That's the thing, when you see games break the mold, they don't generate much hype and usually people don't like them. AoC had lots of hype before it came out? Why? Because it had innovations of improvements on existing material used. I am all for breaking the mold, but I have spent countless of hours trying too and not sure you can because there is a massive risk factor with in the publishers.

 

I understand it is risky business, but if we wanted to play WoW, it is there, we can play it.  Why would we want to play a WoW clone?  If there's nothing different about your game, why should we pay to do the same thing in a different setting?

Also, I understand that AoC was ultra linear, ultra instanced, and bug ridden.  I never played, so this could be incorrect IDK from firsthand experience.  There might be more to it than just "they tried something new and failed".  Did you work on AoC some?  It has good graphics i hear.

If nobody tries anything new we will get more of what we have been getting - mediocrity.  You will never have a smash hit if you copycat.  I'm not usually one for predicting, but I'm going to say that in the next 3 to 4 years somebody is going to come out with an MMO game that is really different.  This game will be an amazing success, and it will be totally unlike WoW.

That is my hope anyway...

Well, you are right, most games do copy wow to try and generate that million dollor revenue. However, if you remember my game thread, mine had alot of different aspects than WoW. I refuse to make a WoW clone. I took alot of the good aspects from EQ. I am trying to set a class game with freedom, which may sound efffed up, but I think I can pull it off. I will be reposting take 2 on that thread. The layout on that thing was awful. But no, I had alot of different aspects which would use strategic avanues for characters with out limations on class. Anyways...

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by dimmit77

Originally posted by Ngeldu5t

Originally posted by Frostbite05

endgame is not a failure by any means. It's essentially what everyone looks for in an mmo today and only a very very small fraction of players think otherwise.

Endgame as a failure is the symptom of the problem not the cause.Until now every single Game that has hit the market suffer from the same lack of innovation.Only CCP has proven that a game can exist without the never ending,boring endgame raid".

By eliminating the vertical progression they simply made the player more involved in a dynamic world instead of running solo to hit the max level to then get involved in the supposed greater gameplay known as Endgame raiding.

 

 

Do not compare apples with oranges. EVE is a pvp game. The endgame is pvp. Remove the pvp element from EVE and see how fun a game it becomes. A PVE game like EQ2, Vanguard or EQ, have to have a different kind of endgame. Beating extremely difficult raid encounters, farming for loot to be able to beat said encounters, and doing longass quests.

And don't compare WoW with the majority of MMO's out there. Not all of the games are as easy as it is. EQ2's Shadow odyssey released 3 months ago, and in that time only 1 out of the 4 raid zones has been cleared. And only a couple of guilds have managed to clear that zone in each server (if that many). For some games, beating endgame content is still a challenge and means something.

 

EVE has NO ENDGAME. You never maxout, ever. There is no end goal period.

 

Yeah, the only one I know of =D