Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ianicus

Originally posted by DrChicken

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I just skimmed through your post because I noticed a glaring error in your though process right away and didn't feel the need to read the whole thing.

Your giant error is you are telling other people what an MMO should be, and how they should play it. You mention several times that an MMO is supposed to be "A game" and not an "Alternate life" and that the "game" is supposed to be fun. You completely fail to realise that many people find FUN in an MMO being a second WORLD for them to live in with an alternate character. You also claim that most people are the adventurous type, but does that mean that we shouldn't provide any entertainment for those that aren't? I personally am an adventurer, and when I first started playing SWG and saw their were pure crafting professions, I thought it was silly and that no one would play it, because my narrow minded view didn't think that there were other play styles. Well once in game, I couldn't believe how many crafters there were, and how much they enjoyed it. After  a while I loved the amount of crafting in the game, the player driven economy, and ended up doing some crafting myself.

So, expand your mind a little. Just because YOU don't like crafting, and YOU are the adventurous type, doesn't mean everyone is.

While the crafting in current MMOs is really a sad excuse for what it could be, a good crafting system can provide a lot of extra stuff for EVERYONE to do, even adventurers.

 

You're not doing this thread any justice by cherry picking certain lines and words from the OP's statement, and then carrying on as if you coherently understand his argument. The OP made a connection between real-life stress, and how that is reflected on MMOs because of crafting - which is a very thought invoking concept. This is merely a postulation, so there's no need for personal vindictiveness - the OP obviously HAS "expanded his mind a little" in order to come to the conclusion that he did.

 

If a person finds crafting or harvesting, or any MMO stressful, they need some serious medication im afraid. Its a GAME, juts like the OP says, unfortunately hes a hypocrit to his own argument. Its is a game, and im sure many people find it fun and NON STRESSFUL, if that isnt the case for him, its not the GAME for him.

 

Thank you Captain Obvious, but that remains to be seen. Currently, my DPS is competitive enough to keep raiding. I raid with a great group of guys/gals and they are reasonable and don't support the hyper-inflation the market has seen in-game either. I'm going to try and make it through the game without overspending on things that are overpriced and so far so good, but looking over the AH prices on goods made me think about the matter more in-depth, which prompted this post.

Maybe not you, but many people only play the current batch of MMORPG's as they would a single player game. Meaning, we level up, while enjoying the content along the way and the good company of others, and then we raid or PvP or whatever it is that end game offers in any particular game.  After that, we move on to another game. This website is a testament to this sort of playstyle, otherwise it wouldn't exist. After all, if people stuck with one game, this website would be sort of useless. I mean look at how many games are represented on this website and think of how few players there are comparatively. The fact is that people bounce from one game to the next after they experience the game or get bored and want to experience another game. It's no different than single player games in that regard.

Anyways, I'm way off topic here. The major concensus on this thread so far is that crafting has it's place if it's created right, and SWG is given as the best example of how to do it. I agree with this sentiment. You've kind of narrowed the argument to one game, WoW, which wasn't intended and I supported the derailing of the thread by responding to you.

So back on topic.

This thread was generated because you play wow and you dont like its system, which is alot different from many of the MMO's on the market....so you are pissed off at crafting in WOW, so you create a generalized statement about how crafting in ALL mmo's should be done away with, than back peddle a little when SWG is mentioned....than you back peddle AGAIN when EVE is mentions....your the one derailing your thread my friend, and not only that provideing a less that stable argument, your opinion seems to change on a whim, its clear to see this thread was emotionaly driven. I never mentioned you were speaking about WoW in particular, but based on your sig, and why you were frustrated it didnt take sherlock holmes to deduce you are talking mainly about WoW. This thread doesnt belong in the general forum, it belongs in the WoW forum because thats REALLY what your talking about. Im sorry you cant even realize that.

If you think is SUCH hard work to play a video game and mine some ore or do x other harvesting activities, id love to see your RL job evaluations on a yearly basis. Crafting in many games is fruitful, and enjoyable, unfortunatley in WoW it is mainly just a grind, and a cash cow for mat farmers. I know why your jaded and I can appreciate that, but I still dont agree with you one little bit, along with most of the other posters in this thread.

One important thing to remember about MMOs is that you're creating a community that caters to a wide variety of people. While some may be "pure adventurous" types, there are others that enjoy other aspects of a game, such as crafting. To appeal to only one demographic wouldn't be a very smart business tactic, and doesn't create much of a community in the game.

Out of all the MMOs I've played, the ones that encouraged players to cooperate in order to succeed had the best communities. While the in-game expenses might appear staggering to someone just starting out, there were usually plenty of Vets that had learned the ins-and-outs of the system, and were willing to help out the newcomers. While monopolies might emerge in certain parts of this type of market, they usually don't last long once other players realize there is a high demand and everyone is forced to price items competatively. On the reverse end of that spectrum, the MMOs I've played that required little to no player cooperation tended to have a relatively poor community.

 While running around fighting and fighting stuff may be the only aspect of a game that appeals to you, there are a many MMO players out there that want a deep, immersive experience, and to many that means the ability to create the items in their world. To me it also means having a solid community with players that are capable of cooperating with each other. Otherwise you're just playing a single player game with a chat room.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 When crafters NEED to rely on adventurers for materials

you've played wow....right? In WoW and most other MMO's crafters DO rely on "adventurers" for materials, which they purchase from direct trade or the AH in WoW's case, they arent out there harvesting 24/7 you know. Crafters in WoW arent JUST crafters, they raid too. The only games I can think off that have non combat crafters are SWG and EVE. In EVE crafters rely on players ot mine for them, than they buy the ores from the market, in SWG crafters generate thier own mats. Now you say crafting will only work if crafters need to reply on adventurers for mats, yet you like both SWG and EVE where in one crafters rely heavily on "adventurers" and yet in another they do not rely on them at all...

I don't agree at all, I would rather play a mmorpg with no combat than no crafting although I would prefer to have both.  An ingame ecomomy is an integral part a mmorpg world in my opinion it encourages player interaction and adds a whole strata of additional gameplay options.

While I have not gone through the several pages of the thread, I have read the OP. To that end, I would have to categorically disagree. Here is why:

To start, we are talking about rpgs. You know "role-play-games". People role play in them, and act out lives that they normally would not have a chance to. They can be the fearless adventurer, an "uber-hot damsel amazonian", or a homely shopkeep. It all depends on what the individual wants, hell... you might even find an amazonian fembot shopkeep selling brocolli on Mondays and bikinis on Fridays. Not sure what game that would be, but if someone wants to roleplay that scenerio, then that's their perogative (as long as game mechanics allow it).

Many mainstream mmos focus on adventuring, true. However, many quests in said mmos involve killing x number of y. I don't know about you, but from an immersion (because other than bragging rights, that is why most people play mmorpgs) perspective, I would at least want the ability to loot certain materials from said corpse. For example, I kill a wolf and he drops wolf fangs by default. How was it that I slaughtered a wolf, and only got his broken teeth? I should at least get a pelt or something, after all it is sort of a trophy. This pelt (and maybe even the teeth, who knows?) is considered a raw resource. Adventurers often have no lack of said types of resource from either the quests, or typical grinding. What are they going to do, sell them to vendors? Many will. But what about that amazonian fembot shopkeep? She just went out hunting because that happens to be a hobby of the toon's, and brought down a wolf. Why must her "perfect immersion experience" be ruined by selling it to a vendor and watch that pelt disappear into oblviion? She almost died for that pelt! She wants to make a stylish bikini to show off to her other fembot friends as they go plunging in the warm waters of antarctica! So she takes her pelt, and some that other adventurers have sold to her, and makes herself a nice little thong.  But somehow she got the calculation mixed up and she now has extras. She could give them to friends, or she could sell them back to adventurers who also want the latest fashion in canine clothing. Her adventuring suppliments her crafting, and her crafting suppliments her adventuring. That is how it works, otherwise its just another version of Mario or Tomb Raider.

Since most mmorpgs seem to have fantasy settings, remember fantasy stories are usually set in the mythilogical human past. Back when men battled with swords in large armies, and women tagged along to claim the dead and keep the men occupied in between battles (a bit sexist I know, but that is how it largely was in human past). An important part of said battles, were the crafters that were the supply line of the army. The tailors, the fletchers, the blacksmiths, and yes- even the fruit pickers. They didn't adventure themselves, but they helped make sure their army won, nonetheless. Many players are happy to try this role, so why not? It is still vital to the adventurers.

I see what you mean, but I think its safe to say that the majority of these inflation issues are caused by groups of RMT who take up crafting so they can intentionally inflate the economy.

A few years ago, this was a huge issue in FFXI:Online and it lead to SE(SquareEnix) creating 'The Special Task Force' that monitors transactions from players believed to be a part of RMT and other things that conflict with the TOS. Since then, the economy has stabilized and ,at least on my server, prices from craft made items are not overly expensive. But this only became possible after SE lowered prices/value on NPC sellable items that RMT were known to exploit and created new Rare/EX endgame gear that cannot be bought, sold, or traded. This makes it so having gil( gold ) is no longer a obstacle for players who want "the best gear". All you need is time and luck...very good luck and whole lotta time.

I rarely play FFXI anymore but the game has come such a long way from its release and it shows from it being one of the highest MMO subscriptions today. Square Enix really does work at making the game fair for all.

I can say all of this even after knowing, first hand, that FFXI has one of those most tedious crafting systems I've seen.
My point is, its not the act of crafting itself that cause prices to skyrocket and turn the game into a 2nd job.

I enjoy crafting and have never found it stressful. I also quite enjoy playing the Auction Houses. I can't wrap my head around the concept of becoming stressed out from an MMORPG. I enjoy adventuring and combat, too. All different components that make MMOs fun for me.  I'm not sure I'd play an MMORPG like WoW for very long if some sort of crafting wasn't possible. I've also been gaming for a very long time and started playing MMORPGs when they first became available and MUDs before that. I've come to enjoy and expect crafting in these sorts of games. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never once become stressed or unduly anxious from any of them.

Having said all that, I do understand the point of having a balance.  Taking WoW as an example, I find that most of the gear you get from combat is much superiour to what a crafter can make.  I have a character who makes its money by mining and skinning.  It's mostly other players who are interested in crafting who buy.  I suggest instead of removing crafting from MMORPGs that they try and fix it and expand it.  Make it a more substantial part of the game rather than trivial - at least as far as gear goes.  And if you find any part of your game overly stressing you out to the point of becoming problematic, I suggest either a different game or a different hobby all together. Sorry, but I just don't see a point in letting a game make you unhappy or ill.  I would not play if that became the case.

I think yoy wildly overestimate the amount of "pure" adventurers and ever more so underestimate the amount of people who do crafting/gathering because they enjoy it rather then because they have to.

With the possible exception of WoW, which has a lot of "I want it right NOW!!" mentality I have met very few people who do not like doing something other then mindless killing ALL the time.

In fact I would bet that the amount of people who are pure or almost pure crafters, combined with the people who do both AND enjoy both far outnumbers the people who only adventure or do the craft/gather grind just because they have to.

Again, not counting the WoW population into that equation, and even then I have not met all that many people in WoW who do not like to occasionally do the crafting/gather thing, not because they have to but because they want to.

But still, WoW is different, perhaps in there the pure adventurer is in majority but i still think it as a close call.

In most if not all other MMO's I am fairly certain the playstyle you represent is very small.

Nothing wrong with that, but the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few so to speak.

In fact, I think we had an official poll here some year or so ago that was "Do you enjoy crafting in MMO'S?"

Can not remember what the end result was but perhaps worth another look.

I am not saying I am right, I just think i am from playing an abundance of MMO's

From EVE, wich could never exist without crafting, to DDO were it does not even exist, well now it does to a degree but anyone can do it, no crafting skills.

Besides, could you perhaps list the games in which adventurers are held hostage to the greed of the crafters as you describe in your post?

With the possible exception of EVE, and even there the market is so competitive and huge it is virtually impossible to corner any market and over charge, BoB tried with their disprosium ( SP ) monopoly but CCP changed the system to include other reactions to work as the ultra rare ones as well.

In no other game, of which I am aware, are there crafteed gear or items that is a MUST to stay competitive.

Certainly not items that can compete with your end game raiding gear, as you have access to.

In fact, and anyone can correct me here if I am wrong, crafting is a HUGE money sink in most MMO's and most will not even make a profit out of it.

Just food for thought.

Oh, and yes, I wholeheartedly disagree with both your arguments and your conclusions.

It's not a case of crafting being intrinsically good or bad.  It depends on how the crafting is done.  A half-baked crafting system that is basically something else to grind levels in (e.g., what WoW does) is a nuisance, not content, and worse than no crafting system at all.

If the game is designed around having a crafting system with some depth to it, then the crafting system can add quite a bit to the game.  See, for example, Puzzle Pirates or A Tale in the Desert.  I discuss this in a lot more detail on my blog:  either have a crafting system or else don't. 

The number one reason i like to craft, is because not many others do.

When everyone is busy killing mobs, i find my self feeling just as accomplished gathering herbs or something of the like and then selling them on the auction house.

I'm young, i've always had aspirations of becoming an entrepreneur, so i find this relaxing in it's own right.

That's why I love non-recipe based systems. Knowing that there are things that people have yet to find, many adventure inclined players may also dive into some crafting.

Adventure doesn't always mean walking around and exploring the world. It could also mean exploring the constraints of the world. (I.E. crafting limits, things of that sort)

As for the over priced goods...

I usually play a gatherer type for the majority of my journey in these virtual worlds, the one who supplies the supplier. 

Usually i just take what they offer, (if it is somewhat reasonable), and what they do is up to themselves.

The same morality that corrupts the real world, with eventually corrupt all the virtual worlds.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

When crafters NEED to rely on adventurers for materials, and when adventurers NEED to rely on crafters for gear, it creates and equilibrium that balances out the economy. Completely opposite of today's crafting economies.

Most of us would agree with you on this point.  You're not against crafting, just poorly implemented crafting.  So, instead of taking crafting out of MMORPGs, we should be demanding that they implement proper economies and crafting systems. 

The one point I would disagree on is the idea that some of these games are about "adventure".  IMO, the games you mention as having worthless crafting systems are the same games that also fail on the adventure side of things.  Directed/scripted experiences are not adventures, not for me at least. 

Terrific argument OP. Well done. My response is only to say, for you sir that is the case, but it most certainly is not the case for me.

I would have the ideal MMORPG put as much focus on crafting as any other aspect. It is as important to me as any other facet.

That grinding in crafting, as crazy as it sounds, is enjoyment to me. I would have a Vanguard/Original EQ2 style crafting set-up in whatever MMO I play. I do not want that in every MMO, because not everyone enjoys what I enjoy, and I wouldn't want to homogenize the genre any more than it already has been.

I get what yer sayin man, but if that depth of craftin is not there, then I just can't dig it.

Dit

i wuv to craft.

I started off EQ 2 at inception on Neriak server. At that point in EQ 2 crafting utilized components which would be assembled into a final product. I thought that was a pretty neat idea, so here's what I did......

Rather then be an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) I staked out a niche as a Tier 1 supplier to the OEMs. .

I formed the Freeport Pen and Paper Company, created 2 characters in a vertically integrated business model, an alchemist to provide the rare inks and chemicals needed to manufacture the other components, a woodworker to provide the quil pens and paper. My market was supplier to other alchemists, sages, and jewelers to manufuacture the final skill upgrades for mages, priests, scouts and fighters.  

My price structure was simple, three times fuel cost to cover materials, labor, and overhead. Thus, one tier of my products sold on the market for about 5 gold, while the competition was selling for 30-40 gold. This business kept me quite busy, eventually influencing the market by decreasing prices. The art of pricing is in not overpricing, but in stimulating the adventurers to rush right back and buy your products after they leveled. The business's I supplied were also run by crafters and kept prices down too, we made our profits on volume.

I expanded my operations by creating 2 more characters, a metal worker and a tailor. I had noticed that furniture was very expensive on the broker, and it required alot of cloth and metal components. So to did weapon making, it required leather for hilts from a tailor. Eventually I was selling metal studs, braces, hangers, hooks, spikes, etc and other small items you could purchase from a hardware store at low prices to stimulate the market. That part of the business didn't respond as well as the pen and paper, which needed refilling nightly. Hardware accounted for minor profits, and a weekly restocking.

The net effect was the Freeport economy boomed. Keep in mind Qeynos was the "good" side, Freeport the "evil" side. so most people played Qeynos. However alot of people came over to Neriak server Freeport because the broker prices were lower, and there was much much more activity on the broker. My sales character couldn't go anywhere throughout the streets of Freeport without being greeted, and was often invited to group. Freeport was a smaller, tighter knit community. We really felt like family.

And market helped that feel. 

Neriak server was eventually merged into Kithicor server, and our Freeport community tried to make a go of it on Kithicor, but it just wasn't the same. It's not that crafting doesn't belong, but more that you need a group of people that ARE crafters to make the markets work. Most players do just want to adventure, but they will buy equipment and skills from crafters provided that the prices are reasonable.

Non dedicated crafters view crafting as a pain in the ass, they make some stuff and charge a higher price because of that pain in the ass. Now, in EQ 2, if I put a complete set of rare armor on the market for 3X fuel cost, someone will buy it, mark it up 10 to 20 times, and put it back on the market to make a killing. They don't want to craft, they don't want a working market, they just want to get rich. The player that actually needs, and wants, that rare armor has a short window to find it on the broker and buy it, before someone else does and marks it up.

So the crafter now supplies to the guild. The customer now buys within that guild. It becomes a closed, contained, system, not an open market.

That is why the crafting/broker doesn't work as well as it once did.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi  

I log into WoW once a week to raid. Milderthed is my name, Gilneas is my server. Look me up if you don't believe me. I make around 200g a week from raiding, which obviously isn't sufficient enough to afford several hundred gold costing enchants, food, elixirs, or the mats to have them crafted. I absolutely WOULD have to do harvesting runs on a daily basis to afford that. Again, I'm playing the RPG the way RPG's have been played for decades. The reason I play online, is that I can adventure with other people, instead of alone. Crafting is an added component, an un-needed component, to the genre that I prefer not to get involved with in any measure, but am forced to in order to continue to play the game the way I prefer to play.

Interesting. I have never played WOW, only EQ 2.

So, how do the crafters set prices in WOW? What is their anchor on reality? By that I mean, anyone can dream up any price, but what is a product really worth?

As I stated in my post above, my prices are set as 3X fuel cost, to cover materials, labor, and overhead. I am sure if I arbitrarily threw out a price of 50 gold per item, someone might pay it. Or someone, like you, might decide "screw it, I'll raid for something better".

Right now in EQ 2 experience comes so easy you pretty much out level the gear/skills, which is an anchor on price reality.

If you like raiding, fine. But if you are a casual gamer, that doesn't have alot of loot, I want you to have fun, but I also want you to buy from me. As long as you can afford your equipment and skill upgrades you will enjoy your liesure activity of gaming in a competitive manner. And I will enjoy my nice house, furniture, paying my guildhall upkeep, etc. Mutual benefits if the market actually works.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ianicus

Id have to say I dont agree with your post at all. In most mainstream MMO"s on the market right now, crafted items dont provide people that much of an advantage over other players if at all. Most good gear comes from PVP and raiding in most of the MMO's these days, the only exception ive played is vanguard where alot of the really nice stuff is crafted, until end game. My main problem with your post is the fact that you say crafting makes everyone poor, and unable to afford anything. Your so far off that mark right there its not even funny. Selling raw (harvested) materials on the open markets in MMO's, to crafters!, is one of THE best ways to make money. Its the easiest way to make money in wow, and it sure as heck has helped me make good money in vanguard, and in LOTRO, and in pretty much every other MMO ive played. It seems to me your just angry because everything is priced high and you dont feel like doing your part and putting inn alittle harvesting while you adventure. Ive never done a harvesting "run' I just collect materials while I adventure and ive always done quite well. If in the end I want something crafted I can collect the mats myself if need be and commision a crafter to make it, or I could spend the time to work up crafting myslef, which I find fun, especialy in vanguard. So there I kept it civil, but I dont agree with you at all.

 

Harvesting is a profession that isn't adventurous in nature. You don't harvest in any other RPG game to make money, instead you make money by selling the loot you get and through money drops. WoW in particular requires you to buy crafted goods, mainly gems, enchants, food/drink, and potions if you want to stay competitive in raids. If you don't craft or harvest, which in the end is the same thing really, you are SoL. I'm the pure adventurer type and prefer to make my money through loot and cash drops. When loot and cash drops isn't sufficient enough to buy crafted goods in a RPG, the crafters have too much power.

Whether or not harvesting or crafting is easy, isn't the point. The point is that if an adventurer plays as a pure adventurer, he has no market power in the game economy.

I log into WoW once a week to raid. Milderthed is my name, Gilneas is my server. Look me up if you don't believe me. I make around 200g a week from raiding, which obviously isn't sufficient enough to afford several hundred gold costing enchants, food, elixirs, or the mats to have them crafted. I absolutely WOULD have to do harvesting runs on a daily basis to afford that. Again, I'm playing the RPG the way RPG's have been played for decades. The reason I play online, is that I can adventure with other people, instead of alone. Crafting is an added component, an un-needed component, to the genre that I prefer not to get involved with in any measure, but am forced to in order to continue to play the game the way I prefer to play.

I'm sorry I took you seriously at first, because after reading a few of your responses I've realized you are just like the people that say PVP shouldn't be in games because it makes it to competitive or that raiding shouldn't be in a game because it makes it to competitive. Then you try and act like you know exactly how games were suppose to be played, and that everyone else is wrong (insulting everyone who has a difference of opinion of you in the process), and then you have the balls to act insulted when people comes back with any types of response.

MMORPG's goals have always been to be a real life sim and that is where the fun comes from. You create your character and story how you see fit, not how someone else believes it to be played. Whether it is to be a fearless adventurer, a ruthless villain, or even a crafter.

Crafting  is not making your game stressful. You are making the game stressful for yourself because you take it so seriously. No there is no problem with a game being competitive because some people like that stress of competing, but when they start complaining and asking things to be removed because they don't have the time or just don't feel like putting in the effort to do it there is a problem.

It's like those people that want raiding out of games because they are too stressful and they don't have the time to do them or the people who hate PvP because they aren't good enough to stay competitive.

Enough with that, if you want a game that caters to just your type of gameplay exactly then good luck with that. You'll never find it unless you make it yourself.

If you want a game that will allow you to be the best by doing only want you want to do then you need to stop playing MMOs.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 if it wasn't due to the fact that RPG"s in general cater to adventrous types, not crafter types,

I'd say that's false right there. You are stating your opinion as a fact.

 You see, MMORPG's are games, not second lives, not alternate lives or anything some people like to use them for.

MMORPG's are whatever the player decides to make it. You say they are not "anything some people like to use them for." But if people use them for a purpose then they do, in fact, fit that that purpose, no?

My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to craft. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right?

My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to PvP. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right? See what I did there?

Well, the IDEA of crafters offering goods and services sounds just as good in-game as merchants providing goods in the real worlds sounds good, because it offers a service for something we don't want to do ourselves. The difference between real life and a game, is that we only live parts of our characters lives. Most of us only live our characters adventurous part of their lives while in-game, and really only focus on it, while in our real lives, we do many things, because we have to, in order to afford the goods and services needed to survive. We don't play games to experience the same stress.

Again, you are speaking only for yourself. Some people choose to live MORE than just the "adventure part" of their character's life.

My second point is that games with crafting generally require adventurers to buy things from those crafters in order to compete in-game. This can be good or bad, depending on the players, but it turns out bad, because people don't play games to experience real life stress, in-game.

I have yet to play an MMORPG that absolutely requires you to purchase something from a crafter in order to "compete".  What is the definition of "compete" as you are using it? To be an end game raider, tackling the newest and hardest content? Or someone who logs in to the game and "adventures" with friends, killing beasts and completing quests? Either way, I haven't seen crafted items be "required" yet, if you know of a specific example where they are, please let me know.

The bottom line is that people are greedy and as long as greed exist, avenues of allowing greed to ruin a game should not exist. In the games freshest in my memory, only crafters can produce most of the materials needed to craft the goods aventurers need in order to stay competitive in the game.

Ok first, you make a rather rude generalization about people being greedy. Not a good way to get a point across. Then you say adventurers NEED to purchase crafted items to stay "competitive" without actually telling us what you mean by "competitive".

Therefore, if an adventurer cannot raise enough money by adventuring, which most cannot without a lot of grinding, then they are forced to take up a crafting profession themselves in order to create their own stuff or supply materials for other crafters to create what the adventurers need.

Adventurers like to adventure, right? So how is adventuring even more to get more gold a bad thing? You call it "grinding". I say it's just adventuring over and over again.

So my third point is that the materials needed to craft things adventurers need are so overpriced that adventurers are forced to craft in order to stay competitive.

What materials are "overpriced"? An item is worth only what a player will pay for it. Sure you can say your Rusty Short Sword is worth 90 billion gold, but who is actually going to pay that? Nobody! "Overpriced" is a very subjective term. Also, there you go with that "competitive" term again....

Let me bring you back to one of my earlier points. MMORPG's are GAMES that people play for FUN, and do not want to deal with the same stress they deal with in real life.

Stress? What stress? Just because YOU may feel stressed out with crafting does not mean the rest of the millions of MMORPG players out there do too. I find crafting new items pretty fun.

I'm not saying you shouldn't work for things in a game, because working for something brings a greater degree of satisfaction than getting it instanty.

Here we agree.

BUT, players should be able to play that GAME in the way they see fit.

You CAN play it the way you see fit. If all you want to do is run around in a circle for hours on end clucking like a chicken you CAN. 

Considering RPG's are known to cater towards adventurous people who like to build their characters up as they experience new adventures, it's only logical to expect developers to allow adventurers to be able to make it in a game by just adventuring.

You can make it in game by just adventuring. Name an example where adventurers absolutely have to buy something from a player crafter?

An imbalance is created when crafting is introduced in a game, because the crafted goods are needed in order to further adventure.

Again, you state that as if it is fact. Example please?

This gives crafters power over the adventurers that adventurers don't have over crafters. Therefore, greed wins over crafters and the price of this greed is adventurers starting up crafting professions in order to compete in a genre whose very name has for decades catered to the adventurer.

Adventurers can choose not to buy from a crafter who charges too much. And then the prices will fall. This is an example of what I said earlier. The value of an item is determined by how much a BUYER is willing to pay for the item.

The genre isn't MMOSIMS, or MMOMarkets; it's MMORPG's. I support crafting in MMO's as long as adventurers have the same power over crafters as crafters have over adventurers.

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. It is not a MMOAdventuring Game. Crafting is role-playing too. And your whole power struggle argument isn't good for the same reason I gave right above this comment.

/discuss

P.S.- KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE

My thoughts in red.  I clipped out some bits of the post that didnt have much to do with my replies.

and this is the type of attitude that has this genre being dumbed down daily. Its why these current MMOs are crap, because of people like the OP who only want "fast paced ninja action power combat" and "face melting attacks".

so now we have "themepark" MMOs massive single player games where socialization doesnt matter, complexity doesn't matter in fact complexity is not even wanted. games that are catering to those that just want to log in pwn some face and log out in 30 minutes or less.

I remember when MMORPGs were living world and aspiring to be just that. thats the roots of MMOs UO, AC and EQ ... even MUDs were all aspiring to be living worlds with adventurers, crafters, socializers. now thanks to people like the OP soon MMORPGs will just be glorified God of War "RPGs" with a chat box tied to it. Just mash your attack buttons till your fingers bleed against hordes of mobs with the game screaming "AWESOME COMBO!" like those twitch games ... games for those A.D.D. gamer.

and heres the best part ... I'm not even a crafter. I don't enjoy crafting and have barely ever done any crafting. I AM the adventure type you talk about, I love dungeon crawls and raiding thats my playstyle ... thats what i do when i log in.

whats next? people don't enjoy playing healers so lets get rid of them after all who in a regular RPG plays a pure healer? thats not fun and its a game after all. Lets get rid of raiding, because in what RPG does it take 25 people to kill something? thats not fun and this is a game afterall. Lets get rid of death as a whole ... deaths not fun and this is a game .... oh wait thats right morons like the OP have already gotten death basically taken out of games

I would agree with the OP if they reworded a bit of what they wrote.

Crafting does NOT belong in the majority of mmorpg's today based on the design decisions made.

In the very few MMO's that have been player economy based.. crafting works very well and adds a great dimension to the game.  There are also other things (mostly positive) that these games have had.

In the general Leve, loot and raid based .. mmorpgs.. no crafting doesn't really add much.  Oh beyond the crafts (if any) that make "use" items so they are always in demand.

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

So in the sense of general MMO design I would actually agree.

Then again I don't agree with the general direction of MMO design.. and believe the core systems use do not belong in an MMO...  so in my "world of logic" crafting does belong in MMO's when you use the systems and MMO should use...

ya I know odd..

Another person who fails to realise that not everyone has fun in the same way.

The beauty of a true MMORPG is that it is an artificial world. A world where players of all types can find something to do that they consider fun.

Some people like to craft, some like PVP, some like exploring, some like hunting....and an MMORPG is an environment where all of these people can enjoy their preferred playstyle together.

Now days, we have the drive from a certain group of people to attempt to make MMORPGs as simple as possible. They don't want anything more complex than a linear FPS with gear and levels.

Of course, this is why games that cater to those people struggle for survival after the first month or two. These people quickly get bored, and move on to the next game. 

What we are left with is a trail of dead games, and game developers beginning to look at the MMORPG industry as poison.

I'd have to say that for this statement to be even remotely possible, you would have to say that Adventuring does not belong in a MMORPG.  To limit the genre to just one subset of playstyle is plainly ignorant.  You're limiting yourself with no good reason, and if that mentality was shared by developers, you'd be limiting others as well.  

Vanguard has 3 spheres of play.  Adventuring, Crafting, Diplomacy.  To limit a game to just one would reduce all the other compelling ways to bring people into this genre of game.  The real secret to bringing people into these games isn't to make things super easy and solo friendly.  The real secret is to have as many compelling ways for people to play.  And just as importantly, those reasons have to not only be fun, but important to the game itself.   Vanguard may not be a great example, since Crafting and Diplomacy are mostly pointless, but if they were incorporated in an important and necessary way to the game then that my friend is a win-win scenario for everyone.  If VG has given us 3 spheres, who's to say there's not more on the horizon, just waiting for a good developer to show us the way?

If you can't agree with any of those statements, it sounds like you're a themepark MOG player.  That would be a Multiplayer Online Game.  You're not really looking for Role Playing or really anything on a Massive scale.  That's what I am getting from your little arguement. So maybe you'd be best sticking with games that cater to your playstyle?   Just do me a favor and dont try to limit mine. 

Originally posted by Antarious

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

actually T8 MC suits are very good (even at one point players complained about them being too good). they are great starter gear for the 72+ game until you can get instance/void armor and obviously raid armor.

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Antarious

Look at EQ2.. how many T8 suits of MC armor do you really think you are going to sell...

actually T8 MC suits are very good (even at one point players complained about them being too good). they are great starter gear for the 72+ game until you can get instance/void armor and obviously raid armor.

And when priced at 3X fuel cost they sell very well........maybe somebody's on the wrong server?

Op my thoughts on your topic are as follows:

1. The fact that you are a father, husband or have worked/studied in economics is irrelevant.  One persons monthly sub fee is as good as the next and so long as a player isn't spoiling another persons gameplay or breaking the terms of service for that game they are free to do whatever aspect of gameplay they wish to.  You have no right telling other people what they may or may not do to find fun, which you clearly state in the second paragraph.

2. I find that crafters are a very mature group of players that charge quite reasonable prices for their goods in game, while relying on adventurers for materials.  I find that adventurers selling off the latest fantastic rare item/loot drop they have acquired for an astronomical amount of gold/credits are the greedy ones and gaining power over other players.  Another factor in one player being greedy and getting power to buy things is people who buy gold in game for real money, a very greedy practice that is usually against a games rules.

3. One of your replies stated that you would have called the thread along the lines of how crafting should not apply to more recent MMO's.  You should have called it this it isn't long winded and makes some sense in that modern games are very shallow and crafting is more an after thought feature.  However you didn't do this and it now just looks like you are changing your thoughts on the original post than to admit you might be mistaken.

Finally why are taking the comment to expand your mind so personally if you don't like other people opinions on your thoughts you shouldn't start threads with titles that people might disagree with.

I think the only way to settle this is, to have crafting and adventuring complement each other.