Long time listener, first time poster.

So here's the rub.

My g/f and I like to play MMOs. In fact, (/insert snide comment) we met playing EQII (concidentally my first MMO, but not hers).

So many years later, our MMO experience has come full circle and we find ourselves bored with most of the games we've tried.  We've play mostly mainstream games, call us purists or lamesauce, it's thus far been the best approach to population.

Our Experience:

In playing, living and loving this woman, I've come to get a good feel for her playstyle.  So in an effort to help get some great advice I figured I'd post a little bit about our playstyle:
 

The History:
The "Good"

• Everquest 2 (4+ yrs) several max level characters, most of mine with max AA pre-Shadow Odyssey.  We participated in moderate raid content, but not really our thing.  Left the game with a good feeling, on a high note, having explored the entire world, and knowing my quests like the back of my hand (always thought that was an odd phrase).
  + Really loved the community, good getting groups at any level/tier
  + GRINDING and instances, one of the things that DRIVES her up the wall are games that when people group, it's only for 1 quest, or 1 mob.  Drives her BONKERS!!!  ** In EQII 3-4 grind sessions were not uncommon, in the same spot, taking time only for BIOs and to replace your tank/healer when they had to leave.
  - World was a little small (compared to EQ 1) but not a huge turn off
  - Little to do at level 80, once we each had a couple toons there, it was time to move on, we're not "BIG" on raiding, we like the family style guilds.
• Evequest (her 1yr+, me 6months) - it made sense that after leaving a game like EQ2, to made try the original, the UI was tough to nail down, and the graphics ... well, you know.  Still a pretty good game, so long as you're max level.  Since we weren't, that joy ride didn't last too long.
  + Definitely the right idea and genre
  - No Low level population
  - Graphics, well not that we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into, but yeah it was a tough transition.

The "Okay"

• Vanguard:SoH (1 yr +) - We played at launch, we loved SOOOOO many things about this game, but the unyielding and unrelenting issues were enough to drive us away.  We had toons up in the mid 40's, with a decent guild, our lovely houses in the middle of no-where.  And it was the first game I  was temp suspending from for leveling the ol' bard from 9-35, on a bugged quest turn in.  4 hours and about 65,000,000,000 mouse clicks later ... ding!  Well that was short lived.  hehe, still a grea game in concept, but can't save a sinking ship.  We even tried coming back to it recently (past 3 months) and well ... no one from level 1 - 20 it seems ... population kicked our
  + The dungeon grinding, spending hours at the wardship looking for candles and etc, etc.
  + Good community, and IMMENSE world (well that's a positive and a negative)
  + Graphics, were pretty, but can you say stu-stu-stutter?
  - Travel, I know they fixed this but too much of a good thing?
  - Population ... yeah I know, but it sucks.
• LOTRO (1.5yrs+) - Another well designed game, but it's in the okay section for a reason.  Realistically, we only played this game as long as we did because we had a friend in RL playing with us. I thought the epic quest line was an awesome idea, but Lore and Epic Quests are more my thing, not hers.  The small number of classes hurt us a little too, since we each had 1 of every class over 20+ in the first couple months, the game because sort of a bore-grind.}
  + Graphics: I liked them, she hated them
  + Good system performance, and server stability
  - Epic quests are like hummingbird feeders, if you want a group you have to be within 10 feet of one.  It made this MMO feel too linear, more like an FF game on a console than an immersive world that can be explored the way you want to explore it.
  - Decent population, but poor community.  It felt like too many "teens" on at any given time, and maturity certainly counts for something.
• Warhammer Online (Open Beta - Present(minus 3 weeks) - So here's a game that I thought had a chance for us.  Seemed like a decent launch, good number of players, we even had some RL friends playing, PQ's seemed pretty cool.  I was a little worried about the PvP concept, as I didn't think that was her forte, but we actually liked the scenarios quite a bit, I played some ORvR (when it COULD be found).  But Whammm, out of the blue she wants to quit .. lost interest.  No grinds,no instances, no grouping.  Even the heralded PQ system wasn't even to keep her in it. It was just wasn't enough of what she liked I guess.
  - We enjoyed scenarios, but man it was tough to get groups for ANYthing if you weren't doing Keeps, or PQs (and yes we were on a "HIGH" population server)
  + We both enjoyed the classes, albeit we again each had several characters well into their 20's a month and a half into the game, it sucks when we have to call dibs on classes because they're aren't enough unique ones to go around.
  - Community was okay ... (don't take this the wrong way) but too many WoW Fan-bois.

The "Ugly" (IOHO)

• AoC - Well, we spent the $50 x 2 played for 2 months.  Yeah.  I don't think we were in a single group through our teens, and only 1 in our twenties.
• WoW - Here is a game of much debate.  I liked MANY aspects of this game, lets face it, whether you love or hate it, they do many things very, very well.  But, the big turn-offs here
  - Community - Again, not trying to generalize, just making an oberservation based on our experience, the average maturity level is less than waht we are willing to put up with.
  - Not too much of a grind, I mean when I temp-quit EQII, I played WoW for 1.5 months and had a lvl50 NE Druid (go, go feral!) but it seemed like the Staples easy button ... click, click, ding.
• UO -  I tried it, she didn't ... I'm glad she didn't, not our style.
• Guild Wars - I don't think F2P is our thing, I really don't know, but it just didn't work for us.  It had the life span of a Diablo II, it was good for a month, but then move on, AND you don't feel bad because it's free
• City of Heroes: It was cute, but again community/ maturity, and I think she's more inclined for a more "Fantasy" style game, Sci-fi and Campy marvel is out.
• Hellgate: See GW's above
• Asheron's Call 2: It was okay.  Soap-box games are an niche.  One of the BIGGEST problems I see is that if you join a game like that, well after release, EVERYone, but you, has crazy, building jumping, cliff diving, maxed skills. 

So there you have it folks.  We've seen, we saw, we conquered, we moved on.  Now if you have any recommendations for us, please do so, I'm pretty desparate to get on another MMO, it's been a few weeks and I'm itching for one (so much I've reverted to Diablo II just to pass the time).

Again, my thoughts are my own with regards to the comments made about the above games, if you think we didn't give the game a fair shake, that's a valid assessment, and I'll accept it if you want to say we should try it again. 

We're looking for to, well I"m looking forward to Darkfall, and perhaps The Chronicles of Spellborn (despite DF being soapbox/ PvP and TCOS boasting an "innovative" combat system *cough, AoC). 

I've come to learn from reading these forums you all have a great perception and expertise in areas I have not, with the games you have played, loved and lost.  If you can share anything with me I greatly appreciated it.

Also if you're wondering what the heck the **'s were for up in the EQ2 post, here's what they are for.

** While I mentioned 3-4 hour grinds are not uncommon, this was a love hate type thing.  You love to do it, but you hate that it takes up your day.  So what it comes down to, and this is the craziest part, is the game we need must be a Grind, but not a Grind, Extremely Reward -Driven but also not so fast that we'll max out (once we maxes out, we're usually done with the game).  Must have enough risk vs. reward that it's fun, but you don't spend 1 of your 5 hours of play on corpse runs. Diverse enough to spread the world out, but focused enough to have players in all area AT all levels ranges.  pretty enough to hold her attention on her Alienware computer, but not so hardcore it lags on my 512mb Nvidia.

The gloves are off the gauntlet is thrown ... anyone have any ideas?

Thank you ahead of time for your input, we really do appreciate it.

Maybe try FFXI?

you could try lineage 2, sounds like a good game for you, since you like "grinding" and risk vs reward kind of thingy

Originally posted by Crapsauce

** While I mentioned 3-4 hour grinds are not uncommon, this was a love hate type thing. You love to do it, but you hate that it takes up your day. So what it comes down to, and this is the craziest part, is the game we (she) needs must be a Grind, but not a Grind, Extremely Reward -Driven but also not so fast that we'll max out (once she maxes, she's usually done with the game). Must have enough risk vs. reward that it's fun, but you don't spend 1 of your 5 hours of play on corpse runs. Diverse enough to spread the world out, but focused enough to have players in all area AT all levels ranges. pretty enough to hold her attention on her Alienware computer, but not so hardcore it lags on my 512mb Nvidia.
 

What you just said above is exactly what FFXI offers.  FFXI is a group forced grind, but not really cause its alot of fun, and sometimes you'll hate it, most times you'll love it.  Its much slower than the average MMO as you have 20 different jobs you can play as on the same character and can switch to at anytime without rolling a new char, but only after you've unlocked the other 14, as you only start with the basic 6. 

Its all about rewards if you can survive the encounters...tons of risk but as I say below that rush of OMG when you do get something; no other MMO provides that feeling.  The link below has a partial list of things to do...its immense...more things than you'll ever complete....heck if you tried to complete everything that FFXI offers it'll take you well over 3 yrs to finish it all.

No corpse runsas you bind yourself to certain locations, but upon death without a raise can and will result in having to get up where you were bound and can be a good run back to where you were.  Plus you have to play the dodge game as most enemies will kick your ass and they do follow you till you die or zone most times.  They also don't just aggro like the typical MMO....there are Sight, Sound, Smell, Low HP, Low MP, Magic, then later in the game there are mobs with true everything above that can see through ur magic if you have invis on or mask your smell and sounds...etc  Its crazy in-depth to avoid mobs sometimes.

As far as diverse enough to have players everywhere, at one point it was very tough to get groups in many areas, but about 6 months ago a new Level Sync was added that enhanced the grouping system , and removed all the pains of finding players your lvl to play with.  Anyone regardless of level or skill can now group together anywhere in the game at anytime...its an amazing update!

...and lastly this game is not a powerhungry high-end PC required to play it...yes its 7 yrs old this spring, and runs on DX8 using old PS2 technology but its still one of the best looking MMOs that rivals most of todays newer ones!  Check here for some images I and others posted using forced high rez textures!

~Original post~

It would appear that you've played a majority of the AAA titles, but I noticed that you havn't yet tried FFXI!  If' you're still looking for that hardcore experience from days of old, and a challenge everytime you log in and one of the most robust "things to do" that rival every MMO in existance then give this game a go:

Final Fantasy XI

A member here has recent;y been putting together a "things to do list in FFXI" here on the forums, and while still incomplete you'll see the massive amounts of activities!  Most of which aren't things you can just jump into in a few min and defeat.  They take time to unlock and prepare yourself for them and get a good well balanced group of players together to tackle many of them.

Not to mention the best ever storyline of any MMO that even rivals LOTRO.  This isn't a hand-holding quick MMO like most of what you've already played.  If you want something you really gotta take the time to earn it, but when you finally do its like this huge rush of OMG that was incredible feeling that no other MMO can offer because of their ease to acquire stuff.

Anyway, if you have further question do ask me or others on the FFXI forums....still tons to talk about!

FFXI Worldmap and area maps...this game is huge!

Originally posted by dterry

Maybe try FFXI?

I would have to second that. I didn't see FFXI on your list of games mentioned that I could see.

I used to play FFXI and I can vouch that it is a fun game for couples to play. FFXI is really a fun, easy-going, and social game to play. There has really been alot of new changes added over the years as well to help make it more enjoyable and social such as level synch. It is somewhat social-driven but at the same time, it can be reward-driven as well. The two of you may want to join a Linkshell to help with many factors and concepts of the game. Parties and groups will be a important part in leveling together. I would definately recommend at least giving it a trial and see if it is what you and your lady are seeking.

Either way, good luck to you both! 

Awesome posts guys , I really appreciate the input!

I'm looking at FFXI now (online, at work, shhh) ... keep those ideas flowing :)

Have you ever tried the DDO(D&D online) trial? It has a lot of the things you enjoy except wide open spaces, an expansive world. If the instancing in GW didn't bother you then it wouldn't here either. At a minimum try the trial. You should be able to tell if you like it within the 10 day trial.

Thanks for the heads up on D&DO. 

I think the structure of GW bothered her quite a bit, it was only so-so for me.  If D&DO is similar, it would probably flame out in our household.

Question on FFXI for anyone ... watching some of the videos on http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/index.shtml

the beginner's guide, the combat system looks similar to the Console FF, turn-based and menu based (e.g. FF7, FFX, FF2,3,4 lol) is that the standardized form of combat?  I'd be concerned she wouldn't go for that necessarily. 

Also, if the combat is turn based, would that infer all battles are instanced battles?  You engage mob X, and it's you vs mob x like on the console?

Thank uoi!

The combat has the similar console style of menus because FFXI was original buit for the PS2 then ported to the PC.  Though the combat is not per-say turn based.  Its all live action and continuous just like any other MMO, but its alot slower and camp based.  Like for example the dunes which you'll visit frequently...there are like 20 or so really good locations that are fairly safe to camp at.....your PT picks a loc and 1 player pulls mobs back to you and you fight them there....you don't go running around and constantly moving like other MMOs, you will die!

Like where you would stand around in a group in EQ and kinda in EQ2 at a camp location, then 1 person is the designated puller and pulls a mob or group of mobs back to the party.  In FFXI it's very similar to this however you'll very rarely ever be pulling back more than 1 mob at a time unless it was a link or add in the early levels.  In the higher lvl events and some groups you'll see more groups of mobs combat because the jobs have the skills to hold several mobs via sleep and other spells for much greater periods of time.

Much higher lvls during farming runs or when in easier areas you can do groups of mobs easily, but never will you be willing to take on more than 1 Incredibly Tough mob in a normal XP party! 

Never watched the tutorials, so dunno what they cover, but the game is based on 6 player well balanced groups vs 1 IT = Incredibly Tough mob.  When I say well balanced, most the times you won't do XP groups with just random jobs...you will need a healer and a tank, a puller, a nuker or debuffer, and some dps!  Also unlike many MMOs where some skills/spells and abilities are negligable at best, FFXI will require everyone in the Party to use all their spells and avilities in most fights to win.

Don't wanna discourage you in any way, but this game is very tough....much much harder than everything you've played yet and it does take lots of practice and time to learn how it all works and what mobs do what and hurts them, etc...   After you learn how things work it gets a little easier in knowing what to do, but its never easily predicted, like for example the goblin mobs which you'll encounter from lvl 1-75 are bastards and are very unpredictable in their monvements and actions during combat.  As are many other types of mobs but the only way to really see what I mean is give FFXI a try.  It one very intense combat style where everyone must be at the top of their game to succeed when taking on the hardest stuff.

Though along with the Level Sync added last fall, Square also increased the base XP you get from easy and Decent challenge mobs and its quite a bit easier and faster to lvl not only in a group, but its now feasable to solo into the late 20s, early 30s on most jobs and several all the way to 75.  Though all of the tough storylines, mission boss fights, NMs, BCNMs, etc still require full balanced groups to succeed!

I think you two were made for FFXI, best choice out there for you.  Grouping is almost required, so you'll have no problem getting into a group, provided you pick the right classes./builds.  Be sure to do some reasearch on this or one or both of you might get left out in the cold in the upper levels.

So you level up to the cap then quit?

If that is the case and you love grinding for rewards, I suggest to try a bunch of free MMORPG's. 

To name a few, Rohan, Requiem, Perfect World, Fiesta, FlyFF.... An I mean thats to name afew. Lots of these games have very unique features but in the end are supergrinds. So if your looking for a challenge, try a F2P MMO and get to the level cap. Its rarely done.

Lol ... yeah, trust me, it's not ideal. 

I wish I had the $50 back on several of those games ... cause man that adds up ... and then you forget to cancel and all that stuff.

But seriously, I'm the "explorer/ achiever" that likes to do/see everything.  She's the grin and grind it player.  And since neither of us are really that into raiding, the game loses alot of appeal at cap (+ capped alts).

Valid opinion, and too be honest I have nothing against F2P MMOs, just have never really taken the time to sit down and try one.  From my naive assumptions, I always just figured the content was limited, compared to a more mainstream MMO.  But definitely worth proposing to her.

Originally posted by Crapsauce

Valid opinion, and too be honest I have nothing against F2P MMOs, just have never really taken the time to sit down and try one.  From my naive assumptions, I always just figured the content was limited, compared to a more mainstream MMO.  But definitely worth proposing to her.

Exactly true, most F2P are massive grinds that are damn near impossible to cap in unless you use a bot program or play 24/7 with no breaks and it'll still take weeks per level in the higher range!  Also gear and items are very limited and mostly consist of everyone who plays has the same gear at every cap.  Like new gear at 7, 13, 21, etc its all the same for everyone....

You really should give FFXI a try instead as I guarantee its what you both are looking for!  Also once you get to the end game there is so much to do besides raids, and technically the raids there are are not really raids at all.  They're done quite differently than the average MMO and way more fun.

Also you said your female 1/2 loves to grind but gets bored once she hits the cap.  On top of getting lvl 75, you can then switch from XP to earning Merit XP, which is used to purchase extra points in all your main stats, magic, def, off, etc...

Like I mentioned earlier, you only start with the basic 6 jobs, but there are 14 more you can unlock throughout the game, some very easy...others very very hard to get.  So your talking getting to the cap on 20 different jobs if you want + Merit XP on 20 diff jobs.  Its insane the amount there is to do.

heh, I'm really tempting myself into returning....been several years since I played longer than 1-2months straight but I read every update; keeping myself in the loop of whats going on in Vana'diel and frequently contact friends still playing.  Ask me anything you wanna know, and I can prolly give ya an answer!

Great advice everyone, I really appreciate it.

Next comes the daunting task of getting her to play it. 

I figure it should be an easy sell, $19.99 digital download, and 30 days free.  Couldn't be that bad right?

Originally posted by Crapsauce

Thanks for the heads up on D&DO. 

I think the structure of GW bothered her quite a bit, it was only so-so for me.  If D&DO is similar, it would probably flame out in our household.

Just to point out DDO is nothing like GW, they both have instances but from that point on they couldn't be any more different.

DDO instances are handcrafted dungeon crawls designed for a small party working as a team. You don't get xp from killing things you get xp from finishing the quest. It also has twitch combat, backed up with some decent projectile physics so you could dodge a fireball or arrow, dive behind scenery, or even jump in front of another person and take the shot for them. Add in some very complex build options and sensible 12 man raids, certainly worth a trial.

This post probably sums up a new couple experience very well.

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/219199

Originally posted by Crapsauce

Great advice everyone, I really appreciate it.

 

Next comes the daunting task of getting her to play it. 

 

I figure it should be an easy sell, $19.99 digital download, and 30 days free.  Couldn't be that bad right?

Well you could always do a trial of FFXI for 14 days before-hand!  Even though $19.99 for FFXI plus all expansions is quite cheap, doesn't hurt to give it a try first, just in case you don't like what we've been describing.  I don't see why you wouldn't like it though as its exactly what you both would greatly enjoy.

Final Fantasy XI Trial Website ~ Thie trial button is on the bottom right of screen after it loads and it'll send you to Fileplanet to DL the client.

Probably too late now - but be prepared for crappy keyboard and mouse controls with FFXI - it plays best with a controller!

Nope not too late, she's still thinking about it.

Thanks for the warning though, I thought I caught whispers of "odd" style of controls.

Not sure if that bodes well for us or not, but I still think it's worth a shot

You may want to give VG:SoH another go. It's fixed a good bit from launch and may be what you're looking for. As a plus there is now a trial.

Coincidentally I talked her into it, our old server Woefeather having been merged into Xeth (sp?) (about 3-4 weeks ago).

We started some new toons and ran around, enjoying the new "Newbie Island" but once we hit the mainland we discovered something of a ghost town.  We even "sucked it up" and logged into our 40's toons, and joined a guild, but there just wasn't quite enough activity for us over the course of those couple of weeks.

But I appreciate the heads-up, I'd say it was a good call, and certainly a fun couple of weeks, but still, the population issue is pretty paramount for us.

tyvm 4 the suggestion