This idea is prompted by this thread.

And this image:

It is an idea I have been thinking on for some time.  How to compare the size of MMO worlds?

I would suggest that to make any comparison of this sort you need a Consistent Scale.
The only meaningful scale you can use from MMO to MMO is travel time? (or is there a better way?)

How long does it take to run (walk) fom one side of the 'world' to another?
In cases where you cannot run (EvE, PotBS) I would suggest the benchmark is travel in the default (n00bie) ship / craft / avatar without buffs.
In instanced game worlds (Tabula Rasa) I would suggest the world side be measured by adding up the cumulative travel time to cross the areas to travel from the furthest point to the furthest point.

I would suggest that if the world is too big - or straight line travel is not possible - it should be allowable to measure the distance between two points and then use that measure to scale to estimate travel time to cross the world.
But, just to be clear, you may NOT include spaces that use time compression in this estimate (like saying it would take 6 hours to cross the sea in WOW - travel across the sea takes seconds because of time compression no matter how you do it IIRC)

So, how big is your world?
 

 Is not the size that mattter, but the features.

you can have a big map, with a linear path, and will be boring (Conan)

or better design, on smaller maps ( LOTRO)

hehe...you can see the squares where Adventurine patched the world together.

Originally posted by Teiman

 Is not the size that mattter, but the features.

you can have a big map, with a linear path, and will be boring (Conan)

or better design, on smaller maps ( LOTRO)

While I agree with your point - let's not get OT please.

This is purely about 'size' as in Travel Time to cross the world. 

Originally posted by Capn23

hehe...you can see the squares where Adventurine patched the world together.

Lol i never noticed that

I don't think anyone is too sure on how to compare the sizes until your actually inside the game and can compare it to previous MMO experiences. We all have to wait for either the beta or the release.

Yes.  Well in the OP I did NOT ask about any one particular world (or game).

I was hoping for feedback on as many MMOs as possible.

It would be interesting to see.

Not to be a complete nerd, but in the Holiday 2008 issue of PC Gamer, page number 76 they estimated the size of WoW to be 70 square miles. Now I believe that was only Eastern Kingdom, and Kalimdoor, and did not include Outlands. The issue was also printed prior to the Lich King expansion, and didn't include Northrend either.

I read somewhere at one time the size of SWG. If I remember right, each planet was approx. 92 square kilometers, not including Kashyyyk, or Mustafar. If you go back and look, I'm pretty sure it held the Guiness book of world records for largest game (in square footage) in the world for a certain category... it may still hold that title, but I'm not sure.

can i post the EVE map on here ? :P

Originally posted by decade85

Not to be a complete nerd, but in the Holiday 2008 issue of PC Gamer, page number 76 they estimated the size of WoW to be 70 square miles. Now I believe that was only Eastern Kingdom, and Kalimdoor, and did not include Outlands. The issue was also printed prior to the Lich King expansion, and didn't include Northrend either.

I read somewhere at one time the size of SWG. If I remember right, each planet was approx. 92 square kilometers, not including Kashyyyk, or Mustafar. If you go back and look, I'm pretty sure it held the Guiness book of world records for largest game (in square footage) in the world for a certain category... it may still hold that title, but I'm not sure.

Hmmm okay.

Fair enough but
I am not in favour of using real measurements like km or miles but prefer raw time figures.

Here's why:
Games like WWIIoL and PotBS use real world settings. If you convert travel times to miles then you will derail the whole thead when people start quoting distances from the atlas - which is not relevent.
<Space reserved for examples from these two games>

Besides which... on that basis EvE will always be the biggest... it spans Light Years.

That said, square km/mile areas do give a real idea which suggests content... maybe.  Although I think I can disprove that?  I need to spend abot 3 hours 'in game' tonight to get some examples.... watch this space.

While I don't play it anymore WurmOnline would take atleast of couple of days of hardcore playtime the first few times(8-16 hours for a player how has done it before and who they know).   We're talking about crossing 48KM of insanely mountainous terrian(crossing 3 servers, you can transfer your character by crossing the server limit into another).   With a run/max speed of anything from 3KM(climbing) to 16KM(paved road) an hour, and taking into the fact that it's impossible to go in a straight line.

Originally posted by miagisan

can i post the EVE map on here ? :P

Please do! :D

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by decade85

Not to be a complete nerd, but in the Holiday 2008 issue of PC Gamer, page number 76 they estimated the size of WoW to be 70 square miles. Now I believe that was only Eastern Kingdom, and Kalimdoor, and did not include Outlands. The issue was also printed prior to the Lich King expansion, and didn't include Northrend either.

I read somewhere at one time the size of SWG. If I remember right, each planet was approx. 92 square kilometers, not including Kashyyyk, or Mustafar. If you go back and look, I'm pretty sure it held the Guiness book of world records for largest game (in square footage) in the world for a certain category... it may still hold that title, but I'm not sure.

Hmmm okay.

Fair enough but
I am not in favour of using real measurements like km or miles but prefer raw time figures.

 

Here's why:
Games like WWIIoL and PotBS use real world settings. If you convert travel times to miles then you will derail the whole thead when people start quoting distances from the atlas - which is not relevent.

Besides which... on that basis EvE will always be the biggest... it spans Light Years.

That said, square km/mile areas do give a real idea which suggests content... maybe.  Although I think I can disprove that?  I need to spend abot 3 hours 'in game' tonight to get some examples.... watch this space.

Okay.  Really geeky day today but here are some results.

I started with World War II On Line: Battleground Europe (WWIIoL) because I figured this would be huge and would also help to demonstrate why times are more important than distances measured in km or miles.  Measuring in these units can lead to considerable confusion.  Read on to see why.

WWIIoL has a massive map .  It stretches from Ireland in the west to Sweden in the East and from Norway in the North to Switzerland in the South.  That said, most of that land is barren.  It is only the middle of that area that has towns and terrain.
Measuring the size is easy because it is a real world setting.  The total map is approx 900km x 750km {560miles x 470miles}.
Of that however only about 550km x 300km {340miles x 190miles} is properly mapped with towns and roads and vegetation.
This is where we also start to see why using real world measures breaks down... this so far really tells you very little.
So, on to giving you something useful to work with:
A couple of patches ago the WWIIoL theatre map had a radar function added and the map was broken into a grid.
The total map is 63 x 57 grid squares.  The developed part of that is approx 19 1/2 x 10 1/2 grid squares.
So, I set out with a rifleman from Antwerp to run toward Brussels which is a little over a 'grid square' away.

It took 70 minutes to cross a grid square on autorun (no sprinting).
That means that the developed WWIIoL map would take about 22 3/4 hours to run across W-E and about 12 1/2 hours N-S.
So, based on the info given on the Darkfall Travel times the WWIIoL map (the developed part) is more than 20 times bigger than Agon.

Based on the PC Gamer calculations the WWIIoL map (the developed part) is about 80 miles x 44 miles = 3,520 square miles or about 50 times the size of  Eastern Kingdom and Kalimdoor in WoW.

It's a huge map.  However, you don't quest on that map and in MMO terms there are very few features (no crafting, questing etc)

Next I measured Pirates of the Burning Sea (PotBS).
Another real world setting.  This time it is the entire Caribbean.  From Mexico in the West to Guyana in the East and Charleston in the North to Panama in the South.
In real world terms this is approx 4000km x 3000km {2500miles x 1900miles}.
And using this would suggest that it is in fact twenty times bigger again than the WWIIoL map?
Only it isn't.
The game world in this case has been shrunk down and compressed to make travel times more reasonable.
So, in game terms how big is it?
Well, in this case you cannot 'run' as the basic unit is a ship.
So, I took a level one character in a Halifax Schooner (no buffs) and sailed from the coast NE of Charlesfort (Charleston) to the eastern edge of the map (about 1/2 way across the entire map W-E) and then south to Guyana (which is the entire distance N-S)  This route also avoided the 'trade currents' (speed buff).
My times were 20mins on the first leg and 25 minutes on the second leg (the hardest part getting a favorable wind!)
This suggests that the PotBS map is about 40mins x 25mins which translates to approx 2.3miles x 1.5miles = 3.5 square miles using the PC Gamer conversion.
That makes the PotBS world about 20 times smaller than the Eastern Kingdom and Kalimdoor in WoW.
But, it's more confusing still because the PotBS world is a hybrid of instances involving some character Avatar and some ship Avatar travel...

So, I hope that all makes sense?
I also hope it illustrates why I think measuring the size of MMO 'worlds' should be done using travel times of a basic unit.
Converting that to a distance in kilometres or miles can lead to considerable confusion of the argument!

 

About 8½ inches long.

Originally posted by hvc801

About 8½ inches long.

Well that's fine.  But I play WWIIoL so the above proves that no matter how big your e-peen is mine is probably 20 times bigger at least.

;-D

and its about to get like 40% bigger next patch...although I wish it were smaller, would be better for open world PvP

The only way to get any accuracy is to take your own measurements. Different methods and bias will make results from different players unreliable for comparison. Also, if you want people to believe your world size claims you'll possibly want to take steps to ensure your results are accurate in the scientific sense as opposed to just estimations.

You could possibly use walk speed or run speed as your distance measure, but I would not necessarily assume these to be equal. Many games have spells with a max range and I would suggest this is a better starting point.

If the range of a spell is 25 m, you could move towards a target slowly until the spell functions and then you have  measure of distance, easier if you cast a spell that does not cause the target to move. Walk to the target and measure the time and this would give you a walk speed in m/s. Now repeat this many times, until the standard deviation of your average is small (certainly less than 5%).

Clearly walking the world would be slow, so you need to find the run speed in m/s. Walk between two set points on a map (straight line) and measure the time, you can calculate the distance from this since you know the walk speed. Now run the distance (or ride it on your chosen mount) to calculat the run speed; if your distance is long the run speed calculated will be pretty accurate. Again check this numerous times to ensure a low error.

Once you have a run (or ride) speed in m/s you can begin to calculate the world size. Still, You'll need to measure any zones in a number of places. If the game has a compass you can follow bearings and use trigonometry to calculate the exact N/S or E/W distance.

Finally, keep a record of all your results. That way when people accuse you of bias you can justify your claims.

I do realise this is all a bit OTT, but if you're going to do this you might as well do it properly.

Well Here is one of the many EVE maps. Here is the link if you can't to the full file. Each small dot is a Solar system, the lines are the jump gate paths between systems. and the map is horribly dated so just for size

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

The only way to get any accuracy is to take your own measurements. Different methods and bias will make results from different players unreliable for comparison.

Fair enough - but that would mean you would need to be subscribed to a whole heap of MMOs...
How much money you got?

Also, if you want people to believe your world size claims you'll possibly want to take steps to ensure your results are accurate in the scientific sense as opposed to just estimations.

Define "accurate"? 

You could possibly use walk speed or run speed as your distance measure, but I would not necessarily assume these to be equal. Many games have spells with a max range and I would suggest this is a better starting point.

Yes, but what about games that don't use spells or ranged weapons?  Or games where the measurement of ranged weapon distances would not be possible?  (in WWIIoL it could be very difficult due to the way it works and being unable to judge fall of shot precisely)
Meanwhile in PotBS all combat takes place in instances which are a different scale to the world map?
Movement is the one thing that is more or less a constant from game to game and independent of scale.
And it doesn't matter about scale of the items within the game if you simply use time to cross the world.
But, if you have a better system which will work across ALL MMOs then please detail it?

 

If the range of a spell is 25 m, you could move towards a target slowly until the spell functions and then you have  measure of distance, easier if you cast a spell that does not cause the target to move. Walk to the target and measure the time and this would give you a walk speed in m/s. Now repeat this many times, until the standard deviation of your average is small (certainly less than 5%).

Clearly walking the world would be slow, so you need to find the run speed in m/s. Walk between two set points on a map (straight line) and measure the time, you can calculate the distance from this since you know the walk speed. Now run the distance (or ride it on your chosen mount) to calculat the run speed; if your distance is long the run speed calculated will be pretty accurate. Again check this numerous times to ensure a low error.

Once you have a run (or ride) speed in m/s you can begin to calculate the world size. Still, You'll need to measure any zones in a number of places. If the game has a compass you can follow bearings and use trigonometry to calculate the exact N/S or E/W distance.

 But again, you end up using movement and time as a measuring stick?
And my point is that 'distance' measured in whatever unit you choose to use is not relevant because those units are arbitrary.  As I say, EvE would probably 'win' by this method because weapons have 'ranges' measured in 'kilometres'.  In reality though this is simply a number chosen by the designers.
Travel time is your raw data.

But yes, the more time the measurement is repeated the more reliable the result will become.
And a good experiment is repeatable.
 

Finally, keep a record of all your results. That way when people accuse you of bias you can justify your claims.

I do realise this is all a bit OTT, but if you're going to do this you might as well do it properly.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Well Here is one of the many EVE maps. Here is the link if you can't to the full file. Each small dot is a Solar system, the lines are the jump gate paths between systems. and the map is horribly dated so just for size...

This is my point.  This map says nothing about 'size'.  Distance is a relative measure.  Or perception of distance is based on the amount of time (and the difficulty) of getting from Point A to Point B.