Sounds like the first time Antharas was slain in Lineage 2.

It took 270+ people apparently. so that's a pretty high number. 25 man instance is nothing more than a sad "raid" to be honest..

I don't agree that some of these raids were better simply because they required more people to finish. All that basically means is that the raid bosses were way too over-powered and the game designers made no effort to balance them in such a way that a smaller group could possibly take them down.

Personally, I prefer it when a raid boss is not quite so ridiculous. It seems to me that there is so much more strategy involved when its a smaller group and each individual member could make or break the fight.

When a raid requires the kinds of numbers you guys mentioned from EQ, what does it really matter if you are there doing your job or AFK? One person down out of 100+ makes very little difference. Especially since most of those fights were primarily tank and spank as far as I remember. In WOW, one person pulling wrong or going AFK at an inopportune moment can wipe the group...

Originally posted by Anubisan

I don't agree that some of these raids were better simply because they required more people to finish. All that basically means is that the raid bosses were way too over-powered and the game designers made no effort to balance them in such a way that a smaller group could possibly take them down.

Personally, I prefer it when a raid boss is not quite so ridiculous. It seems to me that there is so much more strategy involved when its a smaller group and each individual member could make or break the fight.

When a raid requires the kinds of numbers you guys mentioned from EQ, what does it really matter if you are there doing your job or AFK? One person down out of 100+ makes very little difference. Especially since most of those fights were primarily tank and spank as far as I remember. In WOW, one person pulling wrong or going AFK at an inopportune moment can wipe the group...

I tend to agree with this guy.  As someone that played EQ and WoW, and raided in both.   I'm not seeing how "zerging" equates to "challenge".  Much like in some of the RK battles I had fun with during my time in DAOC.  More people didn't always mean better.  Some of the best RK defenders were small tight knit squads.

Not everything was "balanced" to death back then though.

The devs made a world, and put things in it.

What you did in that world was up to you.

A big-ass nasty dragon wasn't a scripted encounter designed to play out a certain way. It was simply there. If you wanted to try and figure out how to kill it, more power to ya.

This is of course one of the major differences between old-school and modern MMOs. The old ones were worlds, where you went and played and discovered and did things. And the new ones are themeparks, where everything is balanced and designed to be played a certain way, and the entire thing is a guided experience.

pre BC the raids were hard the first wipe or two (in a brand new guild of course with everyone new to raiding) but after that its pretty easy.

the thing i hated the most was going to a new raid (that i had never been to ) and being told exactly where to stand in order to win the fight,  It took all the challenge and learning out of fighting the monster

Having played EQ for a lot of years and also WoW, I think this thread is mostly “old-school” chest beating. Most high end encounters are hard when players are inexperienced, and become easy once players get the strategy down pat. It’s really not that different from game to game.

Originally posted by polypterus

Having played EQ for a lot of years and also WoW, I think this thread is mostly “old-school” chest beating. Most high end encounters are hard when players are inexperienced, and become easy once players get the strategy down pat. It’s really not that different from game to game.

Maybe so but in EQ it didnt mean shit if you knew the strat or not. Its the fact of knowing your class and paying attention. Knowing the strat is a perk.

Originally posted by Eronakis

I really laugh, really, really hard at this. So this guy says this... "I have done it all man, I have raided pre BC, AQ40 and BWL" You can't tell me those raids are hard!

In EQ, please complete the Elemental Plains and Plane of Time and tell me WoW raids are hard. I am not saying some of them are not challenging, but they don't even compete with EQ's raids at all. 

I know this is a rant/flame thread but whatever. 

I like polls so here is another poll... 

Also this thread pertains to people who have played both games.

Probably this thread or something similar has been made but oh well.. let the flames begin I guess =\

See EQ raids are surely harder than WoW's, but EQ requires you to stay on for hours and u had to be on 25hrs a week minium and people who played 20 hrs a week were considered leechers by the players that player 45 hrs a week working hard for there gear.
 

You know further along in that arguement with that guy, he said he watched his older brother play EQ. He claims that a "An elite wow guild could take down the Rathe Counsel in 1-2 days tops. I have seen it done before, it's alot of crowd control, seriously crowd control doesn't take skill at all. I don't care what anyone says, I asure you that a mage cc in WoW is 10x more extreme than enchanters in EQ's cc". ARE YOU SERIOUS? The top 5 PVE Wow guild's couldnt take down the rathe counsel with full aa, the best gear possible and a strat in a week! Who disagrees?

Neither one is hard.  All you need is to figure out the strategy then you execute it.  The interface itself does not really make it hard to execute and the problems themselves are not that complex.  Its just a matter of trial and error and making adjustments.

I think its clear that EQ1 raids were a bigger pain in the ass.  But that is not hard.

Originally posted by killer1337

Originally posted by Eronakis

I really laugh, really, really hard at this. So this guy says this... "I have done it all man, I have raided pre BC, AQ40 and BWL" You can't tell me those raids are hard!

In EQ, please complete the Elemental Plains and Plane of Time and tell me WoW raids are hard. I am not saying some of them are not challenging, but they don't even compete with EQ's raids at all. 

I know this is a rant/flame thread but whatever. 

I like polls so here is another poll... 

Also this thread pertains to people who have played both games.

Probably this thread or something similar has been made but oh well.. let the flames begin I guess =\

See EQ raids are surely harder than WoW's, but EQ requires you to stay on for hours and u had to be on 25hrs a week minium and people who played 20 hrs a week were considered leechers by the players that player 45 hrs a week working hard for there gear.
 

I remember raiding BWL in wow. That guild took the exact same duration to stay on as my OLD EQ guild. Yes EQ was hardcore. When you have a hardcore game YOU DO NOT have room for horrible players. Thus, this is one reason WHY EQ's community was beautiful. I would rather play with 750k good players than 11 million sub par players any day of the week.

Originally posted by Eronakis

You know further along in that arguement with that guy, he said he watched his older brother play EQ. He claims that a "An elite wow guild could take down the Rathe Counsel in 1-2 days tops. I have seen it done before, it's alot of crowd control, seriously crowd control doesn't take skill at all. I don't care what anyone says, I asure you that a mage cc in WoW is 10x more extreme than enchanters in EQ's cc". ARE YOU SERIOUS? The top 5 PVE Wow guild's couldnt take down the rathe counsel with full aa, the best gear possible and a strat in a week! Who disagrees?

I don't see how a WoW mage has harder to execute CC than an EQ enchanter.  Or either EQ2 Enchanter for that matter.

Also I don't see how EQ can be done faster if for no other reason than corpse runs and expense/travel etc.  I would guess he is reversing that and assuming the WoW guild would get as many tries as quickly in EQ.  

The fact is that any decent team of people could defeat any encounter in EQ, EQ2 or WoW in 1-2 days if they were given max gear and immediate resets with not consequences.  Once you know the encounters they are simply not that hard. 

Now I have seen a Loremaster solo an Arch-nemsis bear in LOTRO.  That took her 3 hours to do and had some mad crazy use of CC with a small margin of error over a long period of time.  That was impressive.  But no raid encounter in any game has ever required what FissionChips did in that encounter of the entire raid.

They simply can't be made to work that way.  People would get pissed frankly.

Originally posted by Bakoryo

Sounds like the first time Antharas was slain in Lineage 2.

 

It took 270+ people apparently. so that's a pretty high number. 25 man instance is nothing more than a sad "raid" to be honest..

Yeah, I raided several of the top bosses in L2. I've never seen anything in any other game including WoW and EQ that even came close to those raids. You have to have at least a 200+ strong raid party to even stand a chance against Antharas. He is one big cranky dragon! The guy at the top of TOI (I forget his name) was an extremely tough one as well. Any raid that can be won with 25-40 people is childsplay compared to those L2 raids.

Bren

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Kilmar

The hardest part of wow's raids is downloading the needed addons. /discuss

 

Nah, hardest part of a WoW raid is getting people there on time and keeping them from AFKing every 5 minutes.

Start a 25 man Naxx run at 7pm. Several people wait till 6:55pm to start respecing/gemming/glyphing/shopping for elixers and food.

Now its 7:30 and people are just starting to accept summons.

7:50 and 22/25 members are in the instance and waiting for the last 3 to come back from AFK

8:20pm: Raid finally starts. Clear 1st trash pull and have 2 people go AFK for food. 4 people go afk:bio and 2 more just dont let anyone know they are AFK.

8:35pm: 3 of the AFKers come back while 3 others get DC'd. At this point a few more people go AFK while waiting for the others to come back...

The raid content is easy, and gets easier each update. The hardest part is getting a raid group to actually be ready and focused.

SPOT ON!  

yay kerafyrm was fun back in the day... :D

Thanks to Got Game? for their posting discussing the in-game slaying of Kerafyrm, aka The Sleeper, in PC MMO EverQuest. This event, commemorated with a screenshot on the site of one of the guilds involved, is notable because the players
"...killed what Sony Online Entertainment intended to be unkillable. But rather than actually make it untargetable, Sony just gave it a hundred billion hitpoints. For those non EQers out there a reference scale: a snake has about 10 hitpoints. A dragon has about 100,000. A god has 1-2million."
So, it took
"close to 200 players almost 4 hours to beat the thing down into the ground"

Since WoW is taking big strides away from the raid bandwagon by giving access to all content to 10-man groups, this thread is more of a nostalgia flashback than anything else.

There were quite a few threads some years ago from people complaining about the lack of non-raiding games. Blizzard in particular, being also popular back then, was flamed because a portion of the game's content was not accessible to non-raiders. Apparently Blizzard with the latest expansion decided to move the game towards a 10-man can see all content phylosophy.

So now we get threads where WoW is bashed for having weak raids. Priceless.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Since WoW is taking big strides away from the raid bandwagon by giving access to all content to 10-man groups, this thread is more of a nostalgia flashback than anything else.

There were quite a few threads some years ago from people complaining about the lack of non-raiding games. Blizzard in particular, being also popular back then, was flamed because a portion of the game's content was not accessible to non-raiders. Apparently Blizzard with the latest expansion decided to move the game towards a 10-man can see all content phylosophy.

So now we get threads where WoW is bashed for having weak raids. Priceless.

Yup. Proof that you can never please all the people all of the time.

Luckily I am one of the casual crew that never got to experience Raid content during Vanilla or TBC. It didn't bother me, but I'm glad I can finally experience Raid content without the ridiculous commitments that were once required. I'm quite happy doing my 10-mans while the uber Raiding guilds get to do their 25-mans for the best gear.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

Originally posted by Xasapis

Since WoW is taking big strides away from the raid bandwagon by giving access to all content to 10-man groups, this thread is more of a nostalgia flashback than anything else.

There were quite a few threads some years ago from people complaining about the lack of non-raiding games. Blizzard in particular, being also popular back then, was flamed because a portion of the game's content was not accessible to non-raiders. Apparently Blizzard with the latest expansion decided to move the game towards a 10-man can see all content phylosophy.

So now we get threads where WoW is bashed for having weak raids. Priceless.

 

Yup. Proof that you can never please all the people all of the time.

Luckily I am one of the casual crew that never got to experience Raid content during Vanilla or TBC. It didn't bother me, but I'm glad I can finally experience Raid content without the ridiculous commitments that were once required. I'm quite happy doing my 10-mans while the uber Raiding guilds get to do their 25-mans for the best gear.

I use to raid off and on in tbc and vanilla....it never really lasted long.  I just cant commit 4+ hours of playing wow, or any game for that matter.  I guess im super casual...    lol

Im waiting for blizzard to come out with the 1 man instances.

That was Diablo passworded game I believe :)

 Just curios wasn't all of EQ's raids tank and spank with no other needed strat besides have the tank sit there hit it while the healers heal the tank?  Tank and spank fights are never hard.  Now WoW has some cool interesting fights where different strats are needed. Using locks and mages to tank, Having a polarity shift, stuff like, The new Malaygos fight is awesome, fighting on dragons?! 

---

Originally posted by TheHavok

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Originally posted by Zayne3145

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Originally posted by Xasapis

Since WoW is taking big strides away from the raid bandwagon by giving access to all content to 10-man groups, this thread is more of a nostalgia flashback than anything else.
There were quite a few threads some years ago from people complaining about the lack of non-raiding games. Blizzard in particular, being also popular back then, was flamed because a portion of the game's content was not accessible to non-raiders. Apparently Blizzard with the latest expansion decided to move the game towards a 10-man can see all content phylosophy.
So now we get threads where WoW is bashed for having weak raids. Priceless.

---

 
Yup. Proof that you can never please all the people all of the time.
Luckily I am one of the casual crew that never got to experience Raid content during Vanilla or TBC. It didn't bother me, but I'm glad I can finally experience Raid content without the ridiculous commitments that were once required. I'm quite happy doing my 10-mans while the uber Raiding guilds get to do their 25-mans for the best gear.

---

I use to raid off and on in tbc and vanilla....it never really lasted long.  I just cant commit 4+ hours of playing wow, or any game for that matter.  I guess im super casual...    lol
Im waiting for blizzard to come out with the 1 man instances.

---

As soon as you "have" to do something it becomes a whole lot less fun for me too. Even with the dungeons in WoW when they started getting longer to do it was kind of a pain.

Soloing in EQ was harder than raiding in EQ.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by fyerwall 

Nah, hardest part of a WoW raid is getting people there on time and keeping them from AFKing every 5 minutes.

Yup, this.

Raided in WoW for ~2 years, off-and-on .. and I can safely say it's not difficult; the -vast- majority of wipes we had in those 2 years happened because the fights were so dull that people lost concentration; in one awesome occasion, our main-tank fell asleep halfway through a tank-and-spank on a boss.

I didn't play EQ much, so can't comment on the high-end content there, but as far as WoW is (was? I haven't raided for a year or so, it might have got tougher) concerned, the only challenge was not falling asleep or being tempted to alt-tab to thottbot to check what drops this boss has for your class.

I found ths really funny hehe. Being one who's played EQ for 5-6 years and Wow for 1 or 2,  I can say that EQ raids were a lot tougher with much more deaths. I'd say I took part in more raids that failed and fell apart than ones that actually succeeded. But I remember one raid in the Plane of Hate in 2001 which took a total of 14 hours...was ridiculous, no raid should take that long.

Originally posted by Illison

 Just curios wasn't all of EQ's raids tank and spank with no other needed strat besides have the tank sit there hit it while the healers heal the tank?  Tank and spank fights are never hard.  Now WoW has some cool interesting fights where different strats are needed. Using locks and mages to tank, Having a polarity shift, stuff like, The new Malaygos fight is awesome, fighting on dragons?! 

 

 

At the beginning yes. They evolved into different fights along the way just as wow did.

Hmm the OP seems to be filtered out with asterisks. I think the word is meant to r-a-i-d-i-n-g but it's filtered out in my mind.