Originally posted by Moaky07

Pent you are a putz...

Quote me in your response, then say you werent talking to me.

Yeah OK. I guess if I lived in a quasi-functional state, where crying daily over a game was important, I might believe you.

How is it going getting the Precious back anyways?

Have fun with that one :P

And FYI...the hero engine knocked out about a year and a half or so...that is why the game might make it to market this year. Throwing in subroutines for MMOs, art assets, etc doesnt just happen. It takes time...lots of it.

Shows how much you "know" about programming. If you ever worked with a team on a project, then you would already know this. The idea of data abstraction does away with a lot of worrys when building procedures...but problems still have a way of showing up. When you are talking a program with the scale of a MMO, that is a lot of code to iron out.

And as I indicated...to put in a fully functional sandbox as well would end up with roughly 6 or 7 yrs work I would think to smooth it all out. Course if they wanted to launch like SWG they could cut it down to about 5. And that is taking the pre-made engine into account.

My estimates may be a little high...but nothing short of smooth seems to sell these days. Which is the way it should be.

Yeah, I quoted you...but for you to assume I was referring to you specifically when talking ABOUT a certain group of people just seems...hmmm... 
 

I talk to my fiance about cats...does that mean I am calling her one?? 

Seriously. Stop reaching.

Furthermore, your IMPLICATION that I "cry" over the loss of a game is foolish and unfounded. Please examine my post history.

The MMORPG genre used to be deep, and engaging. A game could keep one entertained for years, between "quest" type content, and sandbox entertainment. They required thought, and involvement. Community was important, cooperation was essential.

Now with this "new" generation of MMOs we see (which revolve around cookie-cutter "quest" content and linear gameplay, offer very little if ANY non-combat activities to enjoy, and generally cater solely to the "instant gratification crowd"), we are left with mediocre games that many (even their target audience) grow bored of in as little as 60 days. 

How long do you think companies will keep dumping millions into games that fail miserably in only two months time?? I'll tell you right now, if SWTOR turns out to be a garbage-fest aimed at wow-refugees, and DIES in 60-90 days, LEC isn't going to make another SW MMO.

The genre is turning into poison for investors. Many MMOs have been cancelled due to recent "failures" (games with mediocre subscriptions or worse). Companies have gone completely out of business. How many more will even bother risking developing an MMO at all if this continues??

And all because, as was said earler in this thread by another intelligent poster...these companies just don't "get it".

Many, MANY players and former players of the MMORPG genre are fucking sick of it. We want some QUALITY back in the genre. And saying that it would take three companies as large as LEC, Bioware, and EA 6+ years to create what smaller developers have done in three is just a fucking WEAK argument your kind make to try and convince others of the need for more mindless garbage.

Now, I think I've wasted enough of my morning on you. TIme to go do something contructive like...cut my toenails or empty the catbox.

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.

Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)

MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.

Bottom line is this:

This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.

here, some games for disgruntled vets

www.eve-online.com/

www.mortalonline.com/

www.fallenearth.com/

www.play-earthrise.com/

www.darkfallonline.com/  (/snicker)

You left out Ryzom Mr Miagisan :)

I actually kind of liked Ryzom in the open beta testing...but the download screwed up my wife's PC, and got me into a bunch of bad faction heh

She wasnt the only one...others had tons of problems with the game, and they launched anyways due to money concerns I guess. We see how that one went.

I mainly liked the "cutesy" look of the characters, cause it was totally different.

Was even doing a little with the tradeskilling...but was checking out how all of it worked. Damn pain meds kill my memory anymore, but seems like it allowed ya to decide how to go forward with skills(skill tree type). Seems like it had levels as well though...although cant say for sure. Might be wrong.

I like the skill tree stuff like they have with EQ (alternate advancement)and some other level based games. EQ allows ya to get all the AA points if you spend the time, or you can just have a few of them if you dont play much.

If you limit how many pts can be spent ala EQ2 and WoW, it makes for different builds. That is as far as they should go with mix/matching in classes IMO.

When you allow folks to take up every class, then you have a balance nightmare on your hands ala SWG.

I want Devs to spend time on content...not balancing the classes with each new patch.

Originally posted by Moaky07

You left out Ryzom Mr Miagisan :)

 

I actually kind of liked Ryzom in the open beta testing...but the download screwed up my wife's PC, and got me into a bunch of bad faction heh

She wasnt the only one...others had tons of problems with the game, and they launched anyways due to money concerns I guess. We see how that one went.

I mainly liked the "cutesy" look of the characters, cause it was totally different.

Was even doing a little with the tradeskilling...but was checking out how all of it worked. Damn pain meds kill my memory anymore, but seems like it allowed ya to decide how to go forward with skills(skill tree type). Seems like it had levels as well though...although cant say for sure. Might be wrong.

I like the skill tree stuff like they have with EQ (alternate advancement)and some other level based games. EQ allows ya to get all the AA points if you spend the time, or you can just have a few of them if you dont play much.

If you limit how many pts can be spent ala EQ2 and WoW, it makes for different builds. That is as far as they should go with mix/matching in classes IMO.

When you allow folks to take up every class, then you have a balance nightmare on your hands ala SWG.

I want Devs to spend time on content...not balancing the classes with each new patch.

sorry :) did it while i was feeding my 1 month old

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

 

Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.

Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)

MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.

Bottom line is this:

This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.

 

WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.

My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.

It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.

But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.

And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".

Que sera.

Ah Gratz then Miagi on the newborn :)

My oldest firend(about 35 yrs) and his wife just had their second child in Nov. She was born with a blocked intestine, and part of intestine had problems.

They have been down to the University of Michigan Hospital the past couple of months, but this last surgery is supposed to be it. Amazing what medicine can do these days.

I wish you smooth sailing for your new child. :)

Sometimes I miss mine being that young(will be 14 and 18), but at other times am glad they are pretty much grown heh

Take care friend :)

Originally posted by miagisan

here, some games for disgruntled vets

www.eve-online.com/

www.mortalonline.com/

www.fallenearth.com/

www.play-earthrise.com/

www.darkfallonline.com/  (/snicker)

Notably all but one are in production.

The good part is that some companies are realizing there are more than the "100K" gamers out there that was mentioned above by someone who enjoy creating their own content. Even Bioware knows this for a fact evidence their NWN and NWN2 games and the worlds that people have created and the players that continue to enjoy that player made content to this day.

It's still amazing, though, that some folks (commenting in general here) don't realize that if you put both methods together and polish you'll create a superior product.

*shrug*

Khal....

I have been MMO gaming since 01...in that time a themepark has always ruled North America subs.

Up until a couple of years ago, EQ ruled anything that had come from the sandbox world. It didnt have an established IP, but it sure kicked the hell out of SWG now didnt it?

YOu replace the IPs on the games....EQ have the SW theme, and SWG have the EQ theme and see what happens...the 100k or so subs that EQ had over SWG would of been 300k or more. I bet.

EVE....is it the sandbox that brings the subs in? Or is it the fact that it has captured a nice portion of the PvP crowd? I say it has more to do with the PvP.

Sandbox games just dont appeal to the majority of gamers like the directed content does. Argue it anyway ya want to...still isnt going to change what myself, and the majority of others see as our preferred gaming style.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

 

Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.

Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)

MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.

Bottom line is this:

This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.

 

 

WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.

My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.

It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.

But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.

And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".

Que sera.

 

Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
 

And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.

In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??

It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay. 

Originally posted by Moaky07

Khal....

I have been MMO gaming since 01...in that time a themepark has always ruled North America subs.

Up until a couple of years ago, EQ ruled anything that had come from the sandbox world. It didnt have an established IP, but it sure kicked the hell out of SWG now didnt it?

YOu replace the IPs on the games....EQ have the SW theme, and SWG have the EQ theme and see what happens...the 100k or so subs that EQ had over SWG would of been 300k or more. I bet.

EVE....is it the sandbox that brings the subs in? Or is it the fact that it has captured a nice portion of the PvP crowd? I say it has more to do with the PvP.

Sandbox games just dont appeal to the majority of gamers like the directed content does. Argue it anyway ya want to...still isnt going to change what myself, and the majority of others see as our preferred gaming style.

Moaky07

I've been MMO gaming since 98. Nice to meet you. NA MMOs started off with UO, which was a sandbox and pretty darn fun. I miss it.

Hmm, I'd have to disagree with you here as I don't see EQ as a sandbox game. It did have elements of the sandbox method with regard to its crafting system, but overall it was more themepark to me. Incuded in my definition of sandbox is the ability to construct, build and leave your(the player's) mark on the world in a meaningful way. This includes personal housing, organizational structures and the like. EQ did not have this. As examples I would offer UO, AC and SWG.

Additionally, EQ was fantasy themed, where SWG was sci-fi themed. It has been numerically proven time and again fantasy wins out over sci-fi. We may not like it, but that's the way it is.

With respect to EvE, I'd say it's the sandbox and the PvP. I think it's a little more of the sandbox because with the sandbox method it allows for players to construct building and bases and other world structures that give rise to player conflict. If players don't have anything tangible to battle over, why battle? Because I can? That, to me, gets old quick. Because of the storyline? That may give good cause for a while, but it too can wear away. But give me the opportunity to put something in the world that I or my organization can claim as "mine" and it becomes a bastion of our ideals, a rallying point of our existence in the game world. EvE does that. EQ didn't.

And I'll continue to argue it in a logical manner. You want to maintain that it has to be either or, which is fine. I disagree. I will continue to argue that if you marry the two a greater game shall arise. Pleasing more people and having more subscriptions is a good thing. It can be done.

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

 

Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.

Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)

MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.

Bottom line is this:

This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.

 

 

WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.

My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.

It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.

But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.

And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".

Que sera.

 

Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
 

And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.

In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??

It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay. 

It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.

Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.

And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.

It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.

If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.

So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?

It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.

You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.

Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.

 

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Pentamorph

Originally posted by Moaky07

Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.

If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.

The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.

Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.

Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
 

But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.

YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.

IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS. 

They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.

 

Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.

Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.

In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)

MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.

Bottom line is this:

This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.

 

 

WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.

My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.

It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.

But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.

And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".

Que sera.

 

Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
 

And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.

In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??

It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay. 

It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.

Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.

 

And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.

It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.

If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.

So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?

It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.

You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.

Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.

 

Well, I'm fairly sure you aren't omnipotent, so forgive me if I don't believe you when you say it doesn't work that way.  And please, keep your pity. I don't need it from you. As for getting sandbox games built, they are being done. I'm sure the condescenion that is wreaking from your posts may have blinded you to that fact, though.
 

And if you are sick of hearing from me, don't read my posts, simple as that.

And, on that note, I have to make it to a Scout meeting. Trying to explain I skipped out on them to argue tp and SB, well, they probably wouldn't get it.

Oh, and no need to reply to me, though I wouldn't be surprised if you had to get in the last word. It's clear you maintain to look down you nose and would rather stick to name calling, snide comments and pseudo-veiled insults than, oh, actually discuss a topic.

Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!

(see, now I'm doing it. It spreads like a disease, I tell ya!)

LoL...here he goes making a fool of himself again.

First off Moak,  neither you nor I have any idea what (if any) sandbox elements will be included in SWTOR...that information has yet to be revealed. 

Second, I just LOVE the way you seem to know how much money and time it would take to make a game that can appeal to both styles of players. As if you were signing the checks or something. You DON'T know. 

In fact, it is far more likely that due to the short-cuts possible by licensing a pre-developed engine, that developing hours and budget are FAR less of an issue than you would like to make them out to be.

And considering tha fact that many of the TOR DEV team are former SWG devs, one never knows what direction TOR might take on the sandbox content issue. 

At this point, VERY little is certain about SWTOR's content or design. All we can really do is speculate.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr 

Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!

Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)

And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.

And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?

Originally posted by Pentamorph

LoL...here he goes making a fool of himself again.

First off Moak,  neither you nor I have any idea what (if any) sandbox elements will be included in SWTOR...that information has yet to be revealed. 

Second, I just LOVE the way you seem to know how much money and time it would take to make a game that can appeal to both styles of players. As if you were signing the checks or something. You DON'T know. 

In fact, it is far more likely that due to the short-cuts possible by licensing a pre-developed engine, that developing hours and budget are FAR less of an issue than you would like to make them out to be.

And considering tha fact that many of the TOR DEV team are former SWG devs, one never knows what direction TOR might take on the sandbox content issue. 

At this point, VERY little is certain about SWTOR's content or design. All we can really do is speculate.

 

Well if I am making a fool of myself, I wonder what ya call the folks stomping their feet for over 3 yrs about losing the PRECioUs? Oh thats right...they are "normal". Pfft whatever.

As far as cost...how can it not be an issue? If they have 50M to put into game lets say....a good portion of that would have to go into sandbox aspects if you are wanting polished sandbox included. Only makes sense. Well the money spent on the sandbox is money taken away from directed/polished content.

I luv how you think they are doing this project with open pockets. That 50m isnt probably that far off the mark. Probably more like 75 to 100M...but still dont see them not having a budget.

And for the type of game Bioware is going to make...I sure dont remember ever playing a sandbox by them. I suppose there is a first time for everyone.

I will be glad when it is cemented about what they are gong to make...but with a story driven game, being made by a company that isnt about sandboxes...I would have to think we wont be seeing SWG2.

ANd Khal...you made it personal. When I said sick of hearing....it was along the lines of  " sick of hearing about sandboxes". It wasnt as a "Khal blows". That may be a true statment about ya, but wasnt my intention. Honest injun.

As far as the rest of my last post...I luv the "talk with an adult" comment. Only a child discounts legitimate discussion...which is what appeared to be going on until you had to go. Totally discounting the way I feel  about mixing game styles, and the reasons why. Very mature /golfclap

BTW that "last word" comment is very 1980s....my Mom used to hit me with that in my teens.  Now be a good scout, and I will take the last word :P

I sure hope that the swg veterans will consider trying this out when it gets released. swg had the best community ever. would love to have that again :/

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Khalathwyr 

Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!

 

Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)

And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.

And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?

I haven't looked at Dream Mirror Online. I know Mabinogi doesn't interest me. If DMO has a similiar look then I probably won't be interested either. Substance is good but honestly noone likes to dance with someone they think is ugly. Flaw of humanity I guess.

UO is still around, though it has changed greatly since the days when I played it back in the late 90s. There's an "elf" race in there now. This and other changes were to me like mixing coffee and orange juice. I like them separately but together, not so much.

Vanguard. Well, this is where I reserve the right of a consumer to boycott. I was on board with Sigil until they announced business relations with SOE. Granted, I don't post on any forum daily ranting on how evil SOE is, but I still remember well how they chose, for business reasons, to "dump" me as a customer and for that reason I chose to never patronize them again. It's a decision that has worked well...for me anyway. I hear SWG isn't doing so hot now (by that I mean under 50K subs).

You, how we were talking about marrying the two up, themepark and Sandbox? I think Asheron's Call was a glimpse of that. Monthly dynamic "main story" content with sandbox elements. It was a pretty successful game at that, too. Turbine is still the largest privately owned MMO company even before LOTRO and DDO launched. I think the AC setup is a good base, barebones format to begin with, keeping the dynamic month to month main story, adding more of the directed content and further expanding it's crafting system and player housing/structure systems.