Mythic has just took too literally the "Massive Multyplayer" definition of MMORPG, and ignored the RPG bit.
Fact is that WAR feels like a multiplayer game, like Battlefield. but instead of playing 12 vs 12 and in only one zone, you play with hundreds of players in a big map.
You log in the game, you lose or win and log out. If you like this kind of play you will obviously like WAR.

But if you expect to play an MMORPG, WAR will get boring really fast, because every other aspect of the game, although available, is not very well implemented and doesn't mix well together.
This game is a huge step back from DAOC IMO, if we could compare the 2 of them, that would be my vote:

DAOC = 9
Warhammwer = 5

Way to go Mythic

Originally posted by Ascension08

Originally posted by Guillermo197

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Hairwolf

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Originally posted by popinjay

 

No no no.. stick around......
Mark Jacobs sent a "mystery package" to K & G Headquarters the other day with hair clippers, hair dye and a cryptic note! It was a PR hint kit that Slayers are coming!!
Don't leave yet! You can reroll your 5th alt into the 20s again and take revenge on all those Destro Witch Elves!

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If this happens could be awesome, Slayers were always some of my favourite characters within the mythos.

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Oh its happening all right. Check around forums around the 29th of this month and wait for an important announcement from Mark Jacobs. Rumor is that's when he'll pop the surprise of Slayers coming.

 

YUP!

- They can't fix the boring Open RvR!

- They can't fix the continious Fortress server / zone crashes!

- They can't fix the boring endgame!

 

So yeah... they need to do something to keep people subscribed. 

1.1.1 introduces "Subliminal Zone Control", sort of, where if you actually hold all of the BOs and Keeps then you can lock the zone, not determined only by spamming Scenarios or doing PQs anymore to tip that scale. Though until they really make Zone Control and actual player kills more valuable, I'm not sure how much that'll help. It's in addition to the existing Control system, not a replacement of it though.

There's only been a few Fort crashes on Dark Crag I believe, we just stormed two on Azazel and went like butter...new arguments please.

Boring endgame? Well, that's a matter of opinion. If you don't play sports I don't imagine you can understand how nice it is to "win" after fighting for so long, so, if you only play for the uber gearz, that's fine. You're going to get bored.

Just have a look at WHA in the European Server forums (like Burlok (was server I was playing on)) and see for yourself.

Servers are still crashing almost daily (at least the Fortress Zones).

Cheers

Originally posted by Yamota

Ok I really dont get the complaint. What specifically is boring in the game? It allows you to PvP instead of grinding mob to level and the end game is to raid the opposing sides keep and it is actually quicker to level through PvP Scenarios. That in itself is revolutionary.

An endgame that I agree there are many shortcomings in but Im having a blast leveling my character through scenarios. And PQ? All you do that for is to get some gear so you can be more effective in PvP. It could be made more interesting by being more dynamic but quests in MMORPGs are unfourtanetely very static and has no impact on the world.

Also O-RvR and endgame needs alot of work, that I agree with, but it being boring? I rather play a scenario than grind moronic AI mobs in LOTR, anytime.

I really wish I could put my finger on what exactly is boring about this game, but frankly, it's just boring. I've been there and done that with everything in other games, so why would I want to do the same stuff in this one? Maybe you can sit around and do nothing but PVP all day, but I would like some variety to activities in my MMO. It's got to be something more than continuous scenarios. For Christ sake, I could play Counter Strike for free and get exactly the same thing with better graphics and where my personal skill was a better determinant of the outcome.

Endgame is what makes an MMO an MMO. To say that a game falls flat at the end game is basically admitting that the game isn't worth playing. What's the point of leveling then? If the whole system just feeds back onto itself with continuous PVP, then why not make a game that just did away with quests altogether and focused exclusively on PVP? Trouble is, there's really nothing rewarding about the PVP. Even if your side takes the other side's city, the rewards and punishments for victory or defeat are really quite slim. And all of this is made worse by the fact that on most servers, one side usually dominates over the other one.

I see no difference between grinding scenarios and grinding mobs. You're just doing the same thing over and over again.

Originally posted by woody1974

After reading all these whiney posts I am very confused..Is this a Game forum or a nursery full of newborn babies. Lots of crying going on...The problem with all these MMO's are the people playing it and not the game itself..

The same people who don't take the time to enjoy a game, to explore, to goof off, to play another game, to have a life outside of 23 hours of MMO's...This game is no different than any other mmo's end game..The problem is people gun for the end game several months after release and miss out on alot .

I don't feel any pity for you because you chose to run as fast as you could to the end game..All I can say to you is if you don't like the end game or other things about WAR there is always much worse MMO's (WOW) (lol) waiting for you.

"The game is only as good as the person playing it...."

I see. A whiney post to you is someone who points out problems with a game and complains a little bit? Sorry, I don't buy it. People have a right to give their personal feelings and impressions about a game.

That you would blame the "people" who play these games speaks volumes about your own position. You think they YOUR opinion is the only one that matters, but rather then coming out and making an argument (which you probably lack) you're going to issue a blanket insult and hope it works. Nope. Nice try though.

Maybe you should re-read this thread. No one is talking about playing an MMO for 23 hours a day or not taking the time to enjoy a game. And really, what exactly shall we take the time to enjoy in Warhammer? You fanboys give contradictory information here. Is Warhammer all about the PVP or isn't it? You've got some people talking about how awesome it is to grind out scenarios all day, and then we inevitably get people like you who assume that the game is fun if only you can find that magic number of hours to play it.

Warhammer isn't better than WoW no matter how much you want to try and make fun of it. Blizzard is laughing all the way to the bank while their own subscriptions continue to rise and Warhammer's stagnate and fall.

So again, I'll ask: What exactly should I take the time to enjoy in Warhammer? The witty conversations  between my predictably named scenario mates that remind me of the Barrens in WoW? How about the pathetic crafting system? The same drab quests one finds in every other MMO out there? 

Oh I know! I should make several alts and divide my time amongst all of them so I never reach the terrible end game!

Originally posted by Zodan

I don't understand why people who:

1. Don't belong to decent organized guild

2. Who never got past rank 30

Complain. Get to rank 40 and you can start playing the actual game. Amazing game, the best mmo currently on market, fine there are some stuff that need evolving but they're working on it, I started at launch and totally hooked on the game; played 40/rr48Sorcerer and then my guild rerolled to order and now 40/rr43 BW and still enjoying and having fun.

Give it a chance and play for fun.

Perhaps you could explain why anyone would want to suffer through 39 levels of awful to get to to "start playing the actual game?" Dont you think there is a flaw in the logic there? Why for instance didnt they make the whole game worthwhile? Somehow I wouldnt feel comfortable promoting a game where my sales pitch is "Stick with it mate. Its only the first 39 levels that suck."

Ridiculous.

Thats the same problem that every other moron has given (MMO's are only good for end game). Bullshit! Games like WOW have ruined the idea of playing the game to play the game not to make it a full time job that you have to log on and get 20 other window lickers () together to spend another 4hrs farming the same instance for a small cahnce you might get your brightly colored neon pink and blue gear of uber god like power.

I am sick and tired of people thinking thats all there is to MMO's. The story line of the quests, the fun of getting from zone to zone, and the ablity to war against good or evil (your choice) is the point of these games. In UO you had no end game. Just mobs that were almost impossible to take without a plan or PvP. That was it. This whole raiding concept can be fun (in small doses). You are not uber because you followed some other guys strat on how to beat a boss or because you can do it over and over without  party wipe. Congratz jackass!  you win a cookie! Farming the same mobs for gear doesn't make you elite, its makes you sheep following a heard.

Originally posted by Rydran

I am sick and tired of people thinking thats all there is to MMO's. The story line of the quests, the fun of getting from zone to zone, and the ablity to war against good or evil (your choice) is the point of these games.

The point of these games should be to have fun. And I don't personally believe Warhammer meets that criteria.

Some previous MMOs didn't even have a leveling system or a quest based story line. One of my biggest complaints about the trend of MMOs is that we have to have something called "end game" at all, rather then simply a game that allowed someone to advance and become "better" without a leveling system, such as the skill box system one found in the pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies.

I'd have to say the only legitimate concern is that there needs to be "more to do" in the game, or what's there needs to be better implemented, is the only one I can agree on. But I think that's partly Mythic's design choice. I've heard someone say, "You do the same things at level 1 that you do at level 40, except later on it's on a bigger scale. How boring!"

Well, those same people would be the ones saying, "Why do they make RvR level 40 only? If the real game starts at the end, why'd I waste my time leveling?" if Mythic had designed WAR more like WoW, level restriction-wise.

There's always a variety of things to do in WAR but because you can do them right from the start, they tend to get boring. While it goes against the design philosophy, I think they do need a mix of more mid to high-level only things, such as dungeons but also maybe something unique so that you have something to look forward to.

Edit: Please don't mistake what I said for adding in raid dungeons to grind in all day. While I know that's fun for some people, for the majority, it's not. PvE needs a little boost in WAR but not an overdose. I'd say maybe 3 more raids would be suitable, that is, level 40-only raids. Fortunately there isn't as much of a gear dependency as in WoW so it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but it'd still be something to do, especially for the PvErs. As long as when the time came to fight and push the zone, they showed up, I think it'd be better.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

Originally posted by Rydran

I am sick and tired of people thinking thats all there is to MMO's. The story line of the quests, the fun of getting from zone to zone, and the ablity to war against good or evil (your choice) is the point of these games.

 

The point of these games should be to have fun. And I don't personally believe Warhammer meets that criteria.

Some previous MMOs didn't even have a leveling system or a quest based story line. One of my biggest complaints about the trend of MMOs is that we have to have something called "end game" at all, rather then simply a game that allowed someone to advance and become "better" without a leveling system, such as the skill box system one found in the pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies.

Oh, no wonder why. You actually tried WAR and you like sandboxes? What a mistake. Everyone knew WAR would be similar to WoW and you still tried it. I'm sorry, you just set yourself up for disappointment mate.

Originally posted by Ascension08

I'd have to say the only legitimate concern is that there needs to be "more to do" in the game, or what's there needs to be better implemented, is the only one I can agree on. But I think that's partly Mythic's design choice. I've heard someone say, "You do the same things at level 1 that you do at level 40, except later on it's on a bigger scale. How boring!"

That's a pretty big legitimate concern for an MMO, or for any game, really. If that's Mythic's design choice, then whatever. It's costing them subscriptions.

Why would I want to play a game where there just isn't that much to do?

Originally posted by Ascension08

Oh, no wonder why. You actually tried WAR and you like sandboxes? What a mistake. Everyone knew WAR would be similar to WoW and you still tried it. I'm sorry, you just set yourself up for disappointment mate.

I'm capable of liking different games for different reasons. I had no allusions about Warhammer's basic design, but you can still have plenty of content and different acitivites for people in a level based game. Something that Warhammer utterly lacks.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

Originally posted by Ascension08

I'd have to say the only legitimate concern is that there needs to be "more to do" in the game, or what's there needs to be better implemented, is the only one I can agree on. But I think that's partly Mythic's design choice. I've heard someone say, "You do the same things at level 1 that you do at level 40, except later on it's on a bigger scale. How boring!"

 

That's a pretty big legitimate concern for an MMO, or for any game, really. If that's Mythic's design choice, then whatever. It's costing them subscriptions.

Why would I want to play a game where there just isn't that much to do?

There is alot to do, it's just you do them so much that it gives the illusion that there isn't. For example, you have Tome Unlocks (particularly Lore unlocks, which are a b*tch to find), Scenarios, oRvR (nothing going on? Start something!), PvE of course, PQs, crafting (which does need to be worked on a bit ) and just messing around. The best is to do a mix of these things of course.

In a sandbox, there isn't that much to do either, and you'd think the same thing would happen to those as WAR. The difference is the "freedom" aspect of it. Since there aren't any levels, you aren't forced to do something just because you think you have to level. In WAR you still have choice but there are different things affecting those choices (like trying to level for example). In a sandbox, anything that would affect your choices are a result of you or other peoples' actions, which gives it a great sense of freedom (like whether or not you kill that one guy because there could be consequences later on).

At least, that's how I understand it. I'm relatively new to the genre (WoW carebear so to speak?) but I've learned from all these disgruntled vets around here. The sandbox idea is definetely enticing and I can understand all the frustration because it's not really dominant anymore.

Originally posted by Rydran

Thats the same problem that every other moron has given (MMO's are only good for end game). Bullshit! Games like WOW have ruined the idea of playing the game to play the game not to make it a full time job that you have to log on and get 20 other window lickers () together to spend another 4hrs farming the same instance for a small cahnce you might get your brightly colored neon pink and blue gear of uber god like power.

I am sick and tired of people thinking thats all there is to MMO's. The story line of the quests, the fun of getting from zone to zone, and the ablity to war against good or evil (your choice) is the point of these games. In UO you had no end game. Just mobs that were almost impossible to take without a plan or PvP. That was it. This whole raiding concept can be fun (in small doses). You are not uber because you followed some other guys strat on how to beat a boss or because you can do it over and over without  party wipe. Congratz jackass!  you win a cookie! Farming the same mobs for gear doesn't make you elite, its makes you sheep following a heard.

You are absolutely right!

But as we all know, Mark Jacobs is completely obsessed with World of Warcraft. 

So we all could have known that Warhammer Online would turn out to be another gear grind game.

And that is exactly what it turned out to be.

Even tho we had a splinter of hope to see some of the great things of DAoC back in WAR. Unfortunately this was not the case.

Cheers

Originally posted by Daedalus732

Originally posted by Ascension08

Oh, no wonder why. You actually tried WAR and you like sandboxes? What a mistake. Everyone knew WAR would be similar to WoW and you still tried it. I'm sorry, you just set yourself up for disappointment mate.

 

I'm capable of liking different games for different reasons. I had no allusions about Warhammer's basic design, but you can still have plenty of content and different acitivites for people in a level based game. Something that Warhammer utterly lacks.

 

Particularly non-combat things, which unfortunately are not really part of WAR's scope. I understand what you mean, believe me. WAR is very much a game and not a world...that's the best summary I can think of.

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Originally posted by Zodan

I don't understand why people who:
1. Don't belong to decent organized guild
2. Who never got past rank 30
Complain. Get to rank 40 and you can start playing the actual game.

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Ahh friend.... If Warhammer life was only this simple, lol.

1) Kind of tough to get into a decent organized guild when plenty of the decent organized guilds are quitting the game, not logging on much anymore and rerolling alts for the nth time cause engame is thumb twiddling time. You need to check around more and you'll see this case is becoming more the rule than the exception. People are not happy post 40 right now, and Mark's failure to communicate directly is driving them insane. Scooby-Doo "Mystery kits" to a third party website to spread around rumors you MAY be releasing a class for you is not really what people are looking for.

2) Plenty of the people who are past R40/RR40-50 are the ones doing the loudest yellling, hence the reroll trains. Mythic's release of the Slayer within 3 months is to give them an appetizer to snack on while they try and recode the fort crashes properly. They have to keep the subscription money coming in during this phase to get those fixed, so there is a mad rush right now to get Slayers into the game. I bet this actually is the #1 priority (or should be) at Mythic from a business standpoint.... keep people here somehow, get those two new classes in the game so people stick around.

From the looks of things, if Mythic continues to dilly around they won't have to worry about prioritizing fort siege crashes anymore. The population will continue to drop and they'll never again have too many people in one area causing the crashing problem.

Imo you can have fun with War if it is not your "main MMORPG".  War is a pure casual game. (I'm a casual player but war isn't enough for me. I play both Lotro and War + sometimes Warhammer Mark of Chaos.)

I play War for open RvR every week  (3H/ a week) then I stop war (War's pve is the most boring i have seen an played in a MMO) and I play Lotro.  PQ are farming, and BG looks like Wow's BG.  Lock and unlock systems are ridiculous  ((Wait 15 mn fight 1 mn wait 3 mn etc) so you 'll be bored after 1/2H of Open RvR. Fun as a casual and "rerooll" MMORPG, boring if you play war every day. 

This is not Dark age of Camelot.

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Originally posted by Ascension08

Edit: Please don't mistake what I said for adding in raid dungeons to grind in all day. While I know that's fun for some people, for the majority, it's not. PvE needs a little boost in WAR but not an overdose. I'd say maybe 3 more raids would be suitable, that is, level 40-only raids. Fortunately there isn't as much of a gear dependency as in WoW so it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but it'd still be something to do, especially for the PvErs. As long as when the time came to fight and push the zone, they showed up, I think it'd be better.

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Asc, you are an intelligent individual and usually form good posts. Which boggles my mind why you actually say that above. I really find it hard to believe you truly see this is the case.

Are you really of the mind that gear dependency in Warhammer isn't as big as in Wow? Seriously?

Originally posted by Ascension08

There is alot to do, it's just you do them so much that it gives the illusion that there isn't. For example, you have Tome Unlocks (particularly Lore unlocks, which are a b*tch to find), Scenarios, oRvR (nothing going on? Start something!), PvE of course, PQs, crafting (which does need to be worked on a bit ) and just messing around. The best is to do a mix of these things of course.

Everything that you mentioned can be boiled down to the same activity: combat. Unfortunately, it's rather the same type of combat from one activity to the next. And that gets boring by itself pretty quickly. There's nothing new or innovative in Warhammer. Nothing to work towards. Just the same combat system I've been playing for years in other MMOs, and frankly, other MMOs have handled it better.

Crafting, the one non-combat actitivty, is even more of a snoozefest than the game's endlessly repetitive combat system.

You don't have to have a sandbox to be creative with your combat system, and I'm not talking about attempting what AoC has attempted (rather unsuccessfully I think), but something more than clicking icons on my hotbar would be appreciated.

I don't see where Mythic spent their time on this game. Why don't we have navel battles? Mounts that do more than transport a person around the map? A seamless world? Actual shifting battlefronts? Giant castles and keeps rather than the rather paltry ones we have now?

Warhammer was almost a step backwards in the RVR department. To me, it looks like Mythic had a really epic idea that got boiled down to mediocrity as time and money were being spent.

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Originally posted by Ascension08

There is alot to do, it's just you do them so much that it gives the illusion that there isn't. For example, you have Tome Unlocks (particularly Lore unlocks, which are a b*tch to find), Scenarios, oRvR (nothing going on? Start something!), PvE of course, PQs, crafting (which does need to be worked on a bit ) and just messing around. The best is to do a mix of these things of course.
In a sandbox, there isn't that much to do either, and you'd think the same thing would happen to those as WAR. The difference is the "freedom" aspect of it. Since there aren't any levels, you aren't forced to do something just because you think you have to level. In WAR you still have choice but there are different things affecting those choices (like trying to level for example). In a sandbox, anything that would affect your choices are a result of you or other peoples' actions, which gives it a great sense of freedom (like whether or not you kill that one guy because there could be consequences later on).
At least, that's how I understand it. I'm relatively new to the genre (WoW carebear so to speak?) but I've learned from all these disgruntled vets around here. The sandbox idea is definetely enticing and I can understand all the frustration because it's not really dominant anymore

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One thing I find is you have a gift for understatement. If you worked on crafting in Warhammer "a bit", it just might make it to the level of "crappy". Right now, its a total disgrace, not even worthy of a F2P's crafting abilities. Now I know you'll give me the typical fan answer ("We didn't join Warhammer for the crafting!"). The one telling thing about Warhammer IS it's crafting.. know why?

Read this statement from a Tentonhammer interview in June 2008:

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Questions by: Tony "RadarX" Jones

Answers by: Mark Jacobs, General Manager EA Mythic

There are plenty of standard mechanics one sees in every MMO game. While some, like combat and skill progression, are very obvious others are subtle such as crafting. EA Mythic's General Manager, Mark Jacobs, displays a deep passion for crafting in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. Boasting the system is deep and unique, he promises it will be unlike anything we've ever seen before. Mark was kind enough to answer all our questions about the crafting system from his keep in Virginia.

Tony Jones: Mark, you mentioned in your video blog that you aren't involved much with talking publicly about game mechanics. What inspired you to get involved with crafting?

Mark Jacobs: You mean from a standpoint of putting my face or my voice out there for people to sadly have to listen too…

Tony Jones: Hahaha, well you seem to be the spokesperson for crafting.

Mark Jacobs: Yes it's a particular favorite area of mine. If you look at the history of Mythic, particularly on every game but this one, I was the face out there doing all the interviews. This time I thought I had enough to do. I have some people who are really good at it. Guys like Josh and Jeff and Paul, you guys can go out and do a lot of the talking and leg work. I get to do all the other things I need to do here at EA so that worked out really well.

In the case of crafting that is something very near and dear to my heart. Along with the Tome and Public Quests, crafting is something I have put a lot of effort into and thought about and wanted to talk about.

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Recap: The head of Warhammer was/is in charge of crafting, which needs "a bit" of work even though it's a particularly favorite area of his and he has tons of experience? Tome unlocks? A fluffy title chasing quest mostly consisting of "Kill 50 spiders, now go kill another 100 spiders" or "Find the magic door we hid in this zone, win a title!"? And PQs.. which are better than the usual MMO questing fair early on (first month), but later turn into snore fests no one wants to attend? Nice.

So Mark Jacobs is in charge of a substandard crafting system, fluffy title tome, and the PQ system. Quite revealing. Nope, nothing wrong with Warhammer.

I am barely in to tier 4 on my main, but I have alts all through the first three.  I don't know what it is about about tier 4 that you guys don't like, since I haven't played any "end game" content.  I am not in a hurry to get there though, because I have enjoyed every tier and every level.  I have just as much fun doing RvR on on a level 8, 24, or 32 toon.  I honestly dont know what anyone is crying about.  This game kicks ass.  It is what I wished DAoC would be.  You guys need to take the rose colored glasses off with regards to that game... or if it's really as great as you all seem to think it is, go play it.

I would like to see open RvR player kills be worth more, but tit's not a big deal to me because I am not playing the game just to gain xp or renown.  I'm playing it because the I love the RvR and xp is just a happy side effect.  I don't even want to level my guys out of the tiers they are in now... if I could tune experience gain off I would... just so I could keep characters in each tier to hop around wherever the battle happens to be.

Originally posted by Salvatoris

  It is what I wished DAoC would be.

Haha, that's something you don't/won't hear very often ^^ 

Welcome to being the exception rather than the rule :)

Originally posted by Salvatoris

I am barely in to tier 4 on my main, but I have alts all through the first three.  I don't know what it is about about tier 4 that you guys don't like,

Hmm, I don't know... Maybe the fact that fortress sieges don't work cause servers keep on crashing

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Originally posted by Salvatoris
I am barely in to tier 4 on my main, but I have alts all through the first three.  I don't know what it is about about tier 4 that you guys don't like, since I haven't played any "end game" content.  I am not in a hurry to get there though, because I have enjoyed every tier and every level.  I have just as much fun doing RvR on on a level 8, 24, or 32 toon.  I honestly dont know what anyone is crying about.  This game kicks ass.  It is what I wished DAoC would be.  You guys need to take the rose colored glasses off with regards to that game... or if it's really as great as you all seem to think it is, go play it.
I would like to see open RvR player kills be worth more, but tit's not a big deal to me because I am not playing the game just to gain xp or renown.  I'm playing it because the I love the RvR and xp is just a happy side effect.  I don't even want to level my guys out of the tiers they are in now... if I could tune experience gain off I would... just so I could keep characters in each tier to hop around wherever the battle happens to be.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris: I honestly dont know what anyone is crying about. This game kicks ass.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris: I have just as much fun doing RvR on on a level 8, 24, or 32 toon.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris: I don't know what it is about about tier 4 that you guys don't like, since I haven't played any "end game" content.

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Originally posted by Salvatoris: I don't even want to level my guys out of the tiers they are in now... if I could tune experience gain off I would.

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This game isn't missing the endgame content.

I believe it has the wrong endgame content. The draw to WAR is supposed to be based around its namesake. I don't agree with the fort siege setup either.

But my major concern is that this game is missing a few distinguishing quirks that are intangible at the later levels.

There's too much CC and damage dealing as well. The NPCs and quests are fine. Places like Bastion Stair are a good example of ways people can get their pve fix. There are several dungeons/tunnels that are a great get away from pvp should you choose to leave the fight.

I want more of a point to holding a keep. BO's need their advantages tuned up. There's just tweaking to be done. Its an injustice to simply say it has potential. It has capitalized on a lot of good implementation only to have attention drawn to lingering flaws.

I still very much enjoy the game.

looks like me and ma guild just put some more noobs off the server