Originally posted by rednpink

it's easy heroic badges.  Can't go wrong there. 

I do agree though, must have been a genius at work to create something so complicated, lol.

There ya go.

Easy mode conversion of WoW continues.

Originally posted by Thradar

Originally posted by rednpink

it's easy heroic badges.  Can't go wrong there. 

I do agree though, must have been a genius at work to create something so complicated, lol.

There ya go.

Easy mode conversion of WoW continues.

 

yeah.. all those wimps playing an easy-mode game.   Everyone knows real men play 'hard' video games.  You tell'em macho man.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Ahiles

 Jesus u are talking about dungeons that would takes bloody hours to do, and blood tediuos, anyone that thinks UBRS, and LBRS was fun to do needs a brain check, the only dungeon that was even remotley fun was DM north.   Yes there were nice dungeosn to explore, but nothing more.  Anyoen that wants to go back to the days of getting 20 mans to do UBRS, and doing it for 3 hours or whatever, and LBRS may as well just stick needles in their eyes.

 

Get a spellcheck dude. I guess I hit a nerve, you are a huge fan of the Wrath "dungeons" and don't like any of the old world instances at all. Let me make another guess about your preferences: You use questhelper or some other like add-on.

First off your an idiot for not using quest helper. Also I do have to agree UBRS was fun as hell but still most runs take 30+ minutes to do which isnt super fast like this guy makes out. But still dungeons back then took just about as much time to complete as they do now (at least when you had good players). Just wanted to put that out there.

Originally posted by Azrile

The problem with UBRS type dungeons was just the time it would take to get enough people together who could commit to that long of a period of time... and then if you couldn't finish it, having to wait for those same players to reform to finish it.

WIth regard to all the dungeons being 'hallways' and boxes..   Have you tried AN, CoT-Strat or Oculus or most of the other instances?

I want to address the red text here. There is a very serious problem with what you have said, and I want to give you a fair shot at recovering and saving face. You have not played any instance from the old world which is fine, but please do not try to claim you have and that X was wrong with it.

AN is the embodiment of whoever called them hallways. It is a straight shot, with Anub'arak as the pinata.
 

CoS is probably the best Wrath instance, but it too is short and there isn't much to it.
 

And really, Oculus? Yes, yes that is very short and it takes place in a small globe as opposed to a box.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

First off your an idiot for not using quest helper. <...>Just wanted to put that out there.

You posted only to tell me off about questhelper, everything else is fluff. I'm sorry, but the reality is just the opposite.. This is another soft spot that people have, and they have good reason to be nervous about it, it DOES make them look stupid.
 

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Azrile

The problem with UBRS type dungeons was just the time it would take to get enough people together who could commit to that long of a period of time... and then if you couldn't finish it, having to wait for those same players to reform to finish it.

WIth regard to all the dungeons being 'hallways' and boxes..   Have you tried AN, CoT-Strat or Oculus or most of the other instances?

 

I want to address the red text here. There is a very serious problem with what you have said, and I want to give you a fair shot at recovering and saving face. You have not played any instance from the old world which is fine, but please do not try to claim you have and that X was wrong with it.

AN is the embodiment of whoever called them hallways. It is a straight shot, with Anub'arak as the pinata.
 

CoS is probably the best Wrath instance, but it too is short and there isn't much to it.
 

And really, Oculus? Yes, yes that is very short and it takes place in a small globe as opposed to a box.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

First off your an idiot for not using quest helper. <...>Just wanted to put that out there.

You posted only to tell me off about questhelper, everything else is fluff. I'm sorry, but the reality is just the opposite.. This is another soft spot that people have, and they have good reason to be nervous about it, it DOES make them look stupid.
 

Really well i like how you got shot down by the guy above you and all you end up saying is complete nonsense. What's really funny is people here think your ignorant/stupid not us. I'm fine with you saying some dungeons aren't well thought and and such but when someone shows you the few that are very well done you have to throw your 2 cents in just to make yourself feel better. My friend thats the logic of a 6th grader. BTW just save yourself the time and not respond to this because frankly I'll just shoot you down again or someone else.

End

I always like Mara and ST.  They were my favorite instances. They were the first real taste og harder dungens pre 60. Dungeons that you had to have some skill to do.  Plus they both had iteresting bosses. 

ST was a players first real time to kill dragons, and how cool was that.  I know it is like I kill dragons 5 days a week in wow but at the time it was awsome.

Mara just seemed so huge. 

Oh, wellI left wow over a year ago and never looked back. I do miss ST and DM a bit though. 

PS AQ40 was the best 40 player raid, it was sooooo much fun.  I think all of the raids went down hill after that. 

My favourite stays Karazahn, despite the fact every raider must have done it a million times.

The butler Moroes, the maiden, the 3 opera themes, Shade, all bosses were different and fitted into a nice "evening out" with the friends.

Everyone said NAX was the ultimate everyone had missed, but I can see a difference between Kara and Nax and I see which one was designed later...

But you have to admit: the newer WotLK dungeons are shorter but mostly (not all)  very very beautiful designed. A beauty to look at (compared to some TBC dungeons).

Tempest Keep was awful if you compare it with WotLK dungeons. And I never liked the underwater dungeons of Zangar.

And if you want to complain about design: WotLK open world zones are miles above TBC. So a simple city dungeon is not a bad idea. It's the new stockades.

Originally posted by bodypass

My favourite stays Karazahn, despite the fact every raider must have done it a million times.

The butler Moroes, the maiden, the 3 opera themes, Shade, all bosses were different and fitted into a nice "evening out" with the friends.

Everyone said NAX was the ultimate everyone had missed, but I can see a difference between Kara and Nax and I see which one was designed later...

But you have to admit: the newer WotLK dungeons are shorter but mostly (not all)  very very beautiful designed. A beauty to look at (compared to some TBC dungeons).

Tempest Keep was awful if you compare it with WotLK dungeons. And I never liked the underwater dungeons of Zangar.

And if you want to complain about design: WotLK open world zones are miles above TBC. So a simple city dungeon is not a bad idea. It's the new stockades.

 

TY!

Originally posted by bodypass

My favourite stays Karazahn, despite the fact every raider must have done it a million times.

The butler Moroes, the maiden, the 3 opera themes, Shade, all bosses were different and fitted into a nice "evening out" with the friends.

While I personally think Kara was a great raid, I can't believe someone who has played wow before BC would say this....... Im sorry but vanilla WoWs raid instances were amazing. Hell I would put ZG and AQ20 over the majority of TBC raids with the exception of Kara and BT

Everyone said NAX was the ultimate everyone had missed, but I can see a difference between Kara and Nax and I see which one was designed later...

And how would you know how Naxx was? by trying the gimped Wotlk version? Naxx is a tragedy in WoW the original was so well done hardcore raiders that have been playing longer then you praise it.

But you have to admit: the newer WotLK dungeons are shorter but mostly (not all)  very very beautiful designed. A beauty to look at (compared to some TBC dungeons).

yeah ok they look nice, you want a cookie? cause the dungeons are easy and aoe newb fests.

Tempest Keep was awful if you compare it with WotLK dungeons. And I never liked the underwater dungeons of Zangar.

Well I would hope that the Wotlk dungeons look better then TBCs wouldnt you? also TK wasn't bad i actually liked the see through glass/crystal floors and the difficulty of the pre-nerf versions of bot and Arc.

And if you want to complain about design: WotLK open world zones are miles above TBC. So a simple city dungeon is not a bad idea. It's the new stockades.

WOW!!!! "Its the new stockades har har har" Dude!!!! stockades is the worst dungeon in the entire game!!! being the new stockades is a good thing??? do you even play wow? oh thats right ur a pvper. thats why when you talk about dungeons and raids you bring up Ubrs,Kara and welfare nax (10man) lol.

 

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by bodypass

My favourite stays Karazahn, despite the fact every raider must have done it a million times.

The butler Moroes, the maiden, the 3 opera themes, Shade, all bosses were different and fitted into a nice "evening out" with the friends.

While I personally think Kara was a great raid, I can't believe someone who has played wow before BC would say this....... Im sorry but vanilla WoWs raid instances were amazing. Hell I would put ZG and AQ20 over the majority of TBC raids with the exception of Kara and BT

Everyone said NAX was the ultimate everyone had missed, but I can see a difference between Kara and Nax and I see which one was designed later...

And how would you know how Naxx was? by trying the gimped Wotlk version? Naxx is a tragedy in WoW the original was so well done hardcore raiders that have been playing longer then you praise it.

But you have to admit: the newer WotLK dungeons are shorter but mostly (not all)  very very beautiful designed. A beauty to look at (compared to some TBC dungeons).

yeah ok they look nice, you want a cookie? cause the dungeons are easy and aoe newb fests.

Tempest Keep was awful if you compare it with WotLK dungeons. And I never liked the underwater dungeons of Zangar.

Well I would hope that the Wotlk dungeons look better then TBCs wouldnt you? also TK wasn't bad i actually liked the see through glass/crystal floors and the difficulty of the pre-nerf versions of bot and Arc.

And if you want to complain about design: WotLK open world zones are miles above TBC. So a simple city dungeon is not a bad idea. It's the new stockades.

WOW!!!! "Its the new stockades har har har" Dude!!!! stockades is the worst dungeon in the entire game!!! being the new stockades is a good thing??? do you even play wow? oh thats right ur a pvper. thats why when you talk about dungeons and raids you bring up Ubrs,Kara and welfare nax (10man) lol.

 

 

Originally posted by sorcielle

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by bodypass

My favourite stays Karazahn, despite the fact every raider must have done it a million times.

The butler Moroes, the maiden, the 3 opera themes, Shade, all bosses were different and fitted into a nice "evening out" with the friends.

While I personally think Kara was a great raid, I can't believe someone who has played wow before BC would say this....... Im sorry but vanilla WoWs raid instances were amazing. Hell I would put ZG and AQ20 over the majority of TBC raids with the exception of Kara and BT

Everyone said NAX was the ultimate everyone had missed, but I can see a difference between Kara and Nax and I see which one was designed later...

And how would you know how Naxx was? by trying the gimped Wotlk version? Naxx is a tragedy in WoW the original was so well done hardcore raiders that have been playing longer then you praise it.

But you have to admit: the newer WotLK dungeons are shorter but mostly (not all)  very very beautiful designed. A beauty to look at (compared to some TBC dungeons).

yeah ok they look nice, you want a cookie? cause the dungeons are easy and aoe newb fests.

Tempest Keep was awful if you compare it with WotLK dungeons. And I never liked the underwater dungeons of Zangar.

Well I would hope that the Wotlk dungeons look better then TBCs wouldnt you? also TK wasn't bad i actually liked the see through glass/crystal floors and the difficulty of the pre-nerf versions of bot and Arc.

And if you want to complain about design: WotLK open world zones are miles above TBC. So a simple city dungeon is not a bad idea. It's the new stockades.

WOW!!!! "Its the new stockades har har har" Dude!!!! stockades is the worst dungeon in the entire game!!! being the new stockades is a good thing??? do you even play wow? oh thats right ur a pvper. thats why when you talk about dungeons and raids you bring up Ubrs,Kara and welfare nax (10man) lol.

 

 

 

QFT!!!!!
 

blackfathom deeps is miles ahead of the newer content dungeons.... C'thun was the singularly most intense fight I ever experienced in WOW....

now go do your dailys before mom kicks you off the computer !!

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Azrile

The problem with UBRS type dungeons was just the time it would take to get enough people together who could commit to that long of a period of time... and then if you couldn't finish it, having to wait for those same players to reform to finish it.

WIth regard to all the dungeons being 'hallways' and boxes..   Have you tried AN, CoT-Strat or Oculus or most of the other instances?

 

I want to address the red text here. There is a very serious problem with what you have said, and I want to give you a fair shot at recovering and saving face. You have not played any instance from the old world which is fine, but please do not try to claim you have and that X was wrong with it.

AN is the embodiment of whoever called them hallways. It is a straight shot, with Anub'arak as the pinata.
 

CoS is probably the best Wrath instance, but it too is short and there isn't much to it.
 

And really, Oculus? Yes, yes that is very short and it takes place in a small globe as opposed to a box.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

First off your an idiot for not using quest helper. <...>Just wanted to put that out there.

You posted only to tell me off about questhelper, everything else is fluff. I'm sorry, but the reality is just the opposite.. This is another soft spot that people have, and they have good reason to be nervous about it, it DOES make them look stupid.
 

I don't know why you highlighted the red comment, but I think you are commenting on two different 'errors' on my post.

You said that the new instances are nothing but hallways and boxes.  I pointed out that a lot of them are, in fact, very crazy looking, and certainly not hallways/ boxes.    I see now that what you meant was 'linear'.   AN is a 'staight shot' to the final boss.  So you weren't really talking about the dungeon appearance, you were talking about the fact that you have to do boss1 before boss2 before boss3.   Fair enough.  Now when you say 'loot pineata', what exactly is your problem?  Sounds like you think you get to the final boss too quickly.  What do you want.. 1-2hours of trash added between bosses?   Is ZF better than AN just because you can go right or left at the beginning?  It sounds to me like you would prefer to wade through an hour of trash just to get to a boss.  IMHO, the devs have it right.  You have just enough trash to give each boss a 'setting' and to support the theme of the dungeon, but not so much trash that it gets boring.  Who wants to have 20 pulls in a row that contain exactly the same 3 mobs ( I guess you do).  And really, what is the difference between say Sunkin Temple and the new instances?   Lots of trash, and lots of backtracking.

Now the part in red.. I'm assuming you highlighted that because I said 'the same people' or something like that.  The fact is the BRD was a hassle to get done because you could never keep a group together long enought o finish it in one sitting, and then if you didn't, you have a hard time filling that spot because people wanted to finish quests or kill bosses that you might have killed.  " LF1M, we are 13/16ths done and just need help with 3 bosses"... good luck finding someone.  It was terrible because you could rarely find people with 6 hours to do it all, and then if you didn't have enough time, half the people wanted to do different parts of it to finish different quests.

The devs have it right.  There is no reason to have 20 pulls of trash between bosses. There are no reason to have dungeons that require people to backtrack through empty hallways.  I would rather have short, well decorated and themed dungeons with very interesting boss fights.  Grinding out an hour of trash mobs is not fun.

 I don't mind the length of the dungeons. They seem to have gotten it right now. However the level of difficulty is extremely low. Pull strategy is all but gone and cc is an afterthought. Don't get me wrong , I like the expansion but they could bring up the level of difficulty on the instances.

Originally posted by Thradar

Originally posted by rednpink

it's easy heroic badges.  Can't go wrong there. 

I do agree though, must have been a genius at work to create something so complicated, lol.

There ya go.

Easy mode conversion of WoW continues.

 

Which is a GOOD thing. It is a game but a IQ test.

Plus,  i like short dungeons. I don't have to schedule it like a meeting.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Ahiles

 Jesus u are talking about dungeons that would takes bloody hours to do, and blood tediuos, anyone that thinks UBRS, and LBRS was fun to do needs a brain check, the only dungeon that was even remotley fun was DM north.   Yes there were nice dungeosn to explore, but nothing more.  Anyoen that wants to go back to the days of getting 20 mans to do UBRS, and doing it for 3 hours or whatever, and LBRS may as well just stick needles in their eyes.

 

Get a spellcheck dude. I guess I hit a nerve, you are a huge fan of the Wrath "dungeons" and don't like any of the old world instances at all. Let me make another guess about your preferences: You use questhelper or some other like add-on.

OR....maybe he has a spouse, children, a JOB....things of that nature.  Not EVERYONE has time to run instances and dungeons for hours and hours on end each night.  I had a LOT more time to spend doing all of those things back in UO and EQ days.  My life has changed quite a bit over the course of that time, and sadly, I no longer have the luxury of spending hours upon hours on end,  raiding.

And incidentally....I prefer the old world dungeons and even a few of the BC dungeons over most of the Wrath dungeons, HOWEVER, I'm ever so happy to be able to at least GO on more runs now, due to the smaller and quicker options.

Let me make a guess....you're a bit younger than some of us, right, "dude?"  Oh wait...you failed to supply your age on your profile.  Cute.

To all of the other posters that are over the age of 18 and no longer living with Mommy and Daddy....why are you arguing with a child that was probably one of the whiners about WoW being "grindy" to begin with?  Oh SURE...she "loves Scholo" (I did too, actually, but only got to run some of those old school dungeons on weekends).  I love it ----  Someone else said it more eloquently, but people bitch and moan for a couple of YEARS about having to "grind" (omg....you have to do a few QUESTS and READ some things and maybe interact with NPCs, and do something besides gank n00bs...in an MMO...jeebus how AWFUL), and then Blizzard makes it so even people with bills and jobs can run dungeons and raid, and even PvP, and then...you STILL HEAR bitching and moaning.

People who are better suited to play games like CS Source, Warcrammer (talk about fkin' grindy...just 28 thousand more scenarios before I get to "endgame"...woohoo), or even people that still have enough spare TIME on their hands to camp EQ bosses, or raid for 4 hours straight...those people are going to ALWAYS find something to complain about with WoW.  Always.

I'm not too concerned with that riff raff though, because apparently 11 million or so people are more like ME than them.  Meh.  No loss.  Go play whatever you want.  You won't be missed.

The devs did say that they were gonna make the 5 man content alot shorter in LK long before the game was even released so i dont see why anyone would bring it up now (unless ofcourse your trying to flame the game , then, please go right ahead)

I will admit that heroics are alot more easier and accessable in LK than they were in TBC, at the same time though, the achievements can be really challenging and some, downright impossible depending on your groups makeup/spec/gear. 

And i wouldnt give the devs a hard time. They did a great job with encounters like Skadi in Utgarde Pinnacle, Volazj in Old Kindom, Eregos in Occulus to name a few. Not praising the difficulty just the mechanics if the fight. And yes i know you can blitz through most of the entry level heroics thanks to the World of AoEcraft situtaion plaguing the game.

Personally i found the artistic design of Old Kindom, Utgarde Keep / Pinnacle, Gundrak, Halls of Lightning, Nexus quite impressive. 

The hardcore have the 10/25 man raids which are lengthy dungeons.

But what am i thinking, please continue singling out one dungeon and downplaying the game , on a board thats dedicated to the people that play it. 

Impressive via visuals yes. However wotlk and with it 3.0 is probably the dimest, blankest, emptyest chapter of wow with no content and calling one room places dungeon. Everything BC and wow had lacks here.

There is no warranty to your game. BC had a lot of little blinks wich made you want to continue and to grind. Fraction revards with items, mounts or recipies, atunement quests, gear collection, hard to complete story line quest, skill quests, dungeon/group quests. In wow? You go in a level 80 heroic, get repu to your useless chosen fraction, grab heroic marks and go buy your t7 with it to be able to just walk inside naxxramas, do a round and then sit and bit*h for a week till the raid resets.

I mean what gives lol, in wotlk once you got 80 the game ends, there is no freaking thing to do exept grinding dayles wich are also f*cked up cause while for example leather workers get their blue reagent from any skinning, jewel crafters can get only one/day unless they spend whatever amount of hours looking for a damaged necklace wich is a beyond 1% drop. Personaly if i would be in the head of Blizzard i would kick the whole development team to hell and make sure they never get near an mmo in their life.

---

Originally posted by Obzerver
The hardcore have the 10/25 man raids which are lengthy dungeons.

---

Just letting people know, 2 out of the 3 current 10/25 raids that are out in LK are max 20-30 mins (no wipes). Obsidian Sanctum has 1 main boss, 3 mini bosses and handful of trash while the Malygos raid is... just Maylgos lol. The only real lengthy raid is Naxx (approx 3-4 hrs for an average group).

Oh and to the OP if you read the Lore behind why you have to go into Voilet hold it might make alot more sense why the dungeon is the way it is.

Originally posted by Aerensiniac

Impressive via visuals yes. However wotlk and with it 3.0 is probably the dimest, blankest, emptyest chapter of wow with no content and calling one room places dungeon. Everything BC and wow had lacks here.

There is no warranty to your game. BC had a lot of little blinks wich made you want to continue and to grind. Fraction revards with items, mounts or recipies, atunement quests, gear collection, hard to complete story line quest, skill quests, dungeon/group quests. In wow? You go in a level 80 heroic, get repu to your useless chosen fraction, grab heroic marks and go buy your t7 with it to be able to just walk inside naxxramas, do a round and then sit and bit*h for a week till the raid resets.

I mean what gives lol, in wotlk once you got 80 the game ends, there is no freaking thing to do exept grinding dayles wich are also f*cked up cause while for example leather workers get their blue reagent from any skinning, jewel crafters can get only one/day unless they spend whatever amount of hours looking for a damaged necklace wich is a beyond 1% drop. Personaly if i would be in the head of Blizzard i would kick the whole development team to hell and make sure they never get near an mmo in their life.

Its funny really. In TBC everyone jumped on the whaaambulance and bitched about the god aweful grinds which is why they made heroics accessable at honored and removed the attunements to SSC, TK, BT and Hyjal. And now when the grind is removed or made alot more easier, you have people who want it back.

And Longee : Yup Naxx is currently the only lengthy dungeon in the game with Ulduar and Icecrown to follow suite. 

There is always something to grind for, in every MMO, if people just want to dump their gametime into that level of simplicity. Some people just look at the MMOs of the past in nostalgia, where the only content was the grind. Some of them even try to recreate the grind experience into the modern MMOs, realise that it's pointless and moan about it.

LK expansion is by far a better expansion than TBC ever was (at least that's my personal opinion). Unfortunately for quite a bit of the hardcore (or wannabe hardcore) crowd, it's even less designed for your needs and more designed for the needs of the people with limited gametime. I don't see why people keep on beating the dead horse here, WoW was never meant to be EQ or UO and it will never be.

As for this dungeon, I'm pretty sure it was designed to be the most accessible and potentially (since if you screw up you got to start over) the fastest dungeon in the game. It certainly serves its purpose well.

Originally posted by Xasapis

There is always something to grind for, in every MMO, if people just want to dump their gametime into that level of simplicity. Some people just look at the MMOs of the past in nostalgia, where the only content was the grind. Some of them even try to recreate the grind experience into the modern MMOs, realise that it's pointless and moan about it.

LK expansion is by far a better expansion than TBC ever was (at least that's my personal opinion). Unfortunately for quite a bit of the hardcore (or wannabe hardcore) crowd, it's even less designed for your needs and more designed for the needs of the people with limited gametime. I don't see why people keep on beating the dead horse here, WoW was never meant to be EQ or UO and it will never be.

As for this dungeon, I'm pretty sure it was designed to be the most accessible and potentially (since if you screw up you got to start over) the fastest dungeon in the game. It certainly serves its purpose well.

exactly.  No matter what Blizzard does, someone will be unhappy.  There are just to many players to please everyone.  Blizzard has decided to focus on the 1hr heroic runs, rather than the 4 hour BRD runs.

And again, that doesn't make the dungeon 'easier'.  The bosses in Wrath are MUCH more demanding on everyone than the dungeons in Vanilla.  In Vanilla, it was all tank/healer vs boss, with DPS at most trying to beat an enrage timer.  In Wrath, DPS has to do a lot of different things and has to learn an encounter just like tanks have to.

And finally, to win the argument.  Blizzard had to release 3 new server this weekend.  That makes 35 new servers over the past 2 months since wrath was launched.  ' raid2play' is dead.. it is time for you guys to move on and find another game.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by Xasapis

The "challenging" content is supposed to come with the next content patch.

The next content patch is evidently some miracle cure-all, which leads me to be very doubtful of the claims. I am waiting on .08 for an entirely different reason. Right now, my account is canceled because I can't play the game. I am one of the people experiencing broken game-play thanks to constant lag and DCs. Id rather miss progression time than make myself look bad and get booted over something that has nothing to do with me. Some people have no idea what latency is and how it is relevant to my issues, or why one person would lag while others didn't unless they were doing something wrong... your image takes a beating.

If you had any clue about WoW you would know that a patch with a increment on the last number its not a content patch , with that out of the way , ouh great uber one show us your armory link with all the achievements on raids/heroic on Wrath , we are awaiting in hope our mighty beacon of uberness light ...

/sarcasm

Originally posted by longee

 

---

Originally posted by Obzerver
The hardcore have the 10/25 man raids which are lengthy dungeons.

---

Just letting people know, 2 out of the 3 current 10/25 raids that are out in LK are max 20-30 mins (no wipes). Obsidian Sanctum has 1 main boss, 3 mini bosses and handful of trash while the Malygos raid is... just Maylgos lol. The only real lengthy raid is Naxx (approx 3-4 hrs for an average group).

Oh and to the OP if you read the Lore behind why you have to go into Voilet hold it might make alot more sense why the dungeon is the way it is.

 

So what's the difference with TBC then?

TBC had Karazahn (too hard in the beginning for most), then came Gruul (2 bosses) almost no mobs then came Magtheridon, just one boss.

The same structure, only the "broken" and hardest parts of Kara were tuned down a bit because Blizzard saw a lot of people never went Kara because of this.

Also Gruul was considered much too hard and broken - even by the pro raiders.

So I don't see much difference in the first 4 months of either expansion, only that the Raids and heorics are no longer bugged.

----

My guild does the weekly 10 men Nax raids in two days (3 hours for 3 quarters), the others 3 hours for the rest of the bosses. Nice relaxed going without a lot of yelling.

The 25 men Raid Nax is two quarters down, not more, because 3 raiding days a week is the most what "normal players" can handle.

I only go once or twice a week and looking around me on achievements I see more or less the same stats.

They use DKP now for 25 men, so falling way behind even in our guild. I don't mind, I never played Wow for the PVE gear, only for the titles and some other "like to have" thing.

I don't believe those purple stats differences mean much anyway in a good fight.

In Blzzard Pod cast they stated they wanted Heroics/Normal Instance to be  around 45-1hour  long. I have done all the instance in WotLK and they all seem to hit the 45-1 hour mark even VH