So we have a situation where not everyone will be able to try out the game before preordering.

We also have a situation where Aventurine rep mentions they didn't expect demand to be this high despite the growth of their forum registry going from ~50k to ~300k from August to December which was a good enough tip off, so either they are lying (if you believe they are scammer), dumb or naive (regardless of your belief).

One thing that is being overlooked though is that a number of you also believe Darkfall doesn't appeal to a lot of people and would never get above 100k subs at best.

This is where I think those who see Darkfall as being a scam are unfair in their criticism.

You think by not having the servers available to make this beta phase open to everyone interested they are trying to sucker many into preordering. Yet they even said they probably can't get enough servers to let everyone play on Feb 25th, so they'll turn away people if the demand is too high and only allow the preorders to play.

Should a company buy servers to accommodate every gawker who passes through when even you don't believe the game can retain them as subscribers?

Doing that is the same as burning money. Even Warhammer, as well made as it was from tier 1-2 couldn't retain the initial rush of customers as subs despite few had reached the tier 3 slosh.

Everyone else who thinks this is a scam, but believes a game of this type could sustain more than 200k subs in today's market all I can say is just hold Aventurine to their word.

If you weren't able to try the game yourself by the time the game launches then don't buy the game until they offer an ongoing free trial.

But keep in mind if the other people are correct and Darkfall's gameplay can't sustain subscriptions then you'll just have to wait.
Obviously if Aventurine and their publisher launches the game; but only buys a number of servers that can accommodate everyone willing to buy the game, because these gamers trust the word of those who do try the game, they most likely will not set aside resources to allow people to try out the game when they are in a financial whole and their publisher is going to take 35% of the revenue.

To anyone else who is on the fence about what Aventurine is doing I suggest to do the same and hold them to their word. Don't buy the game without trying, unless you trust the people who do get to try it from January 22 till launch.

If you are unsure to trust the people who get to try the game then consider these as warning flags. Aventurine has an NDA in force after February 15th (when preordering begins) and Aventurine's idea of thousands of players is really just a thousand testers.

To those thinking of preordering even if you don't get to see the game beforehand, (like myself) I'll most likely see you on the 25th ;)

Peace.

Whoever gets in should do a live stream, that way we would not need to be in ob in order to see how the game plays out.

I agree with everything you say expect the date the NDA should be lifted by. The 15th is a Sunday, I would give them another day :P

OP:

Keep it up. Paladin... guy

Darkfall is not a scam.... it is a life choice.

Originally posted by Superman0X

Darkfall is not a scam.... it is a life choice.

Really?

OP your post looks really nice. In my opinion is the best advice you can give. In my side, I'll be trying to get info about the game to form an opinion.

I dont need beta access to see if the game isnt a scam.

But what I do require is a reputable reviewer see the game. Tasos has hidden this game from mmorpg.com and others and then asks for preorders.

Its simple really, show us the game actually exists and works and most of the scam claims will go away. If Tasos has nothing to hide he'll let someone besides his sister review the game

Originally posted by admriker4

I dont need beta access to see if the game isnt a scam.

But what I do require is a reputable reviewer see the game. Tasos has hidden this game from mmorpg.com and others and then asks for preorders.

Its simple really, show us the game actually exists and works and most of the scam claims will go away. If Tasos has nothing to hide he'll let someone besides his sister review the game

Wau... you answer my question in another thread then that i have asked.

i guess everywhere a answer is good for an answer then... ok ..so you don't have any other info to formulate something like

"for the game to loose hype they need only reviews to cover the game"

For that to be true ..you subjective interpretation of  the state of the game must be true ..being the game isn't in a good state and thats why Tasos hide it..

But for that claim you have no proof ..you can't proof  the game is in a bad condition ..

You just interpret the lack of  reviewers as something thats provide your claim that the game is in bad state  ..you can't proof it .. and it could have other reasons as to why company behaves like they behave ..

I agree with you however  on the game should become more neutral coverage, drop of  the NDA etc..but i don't agree with you that because of lack of these the game must be in a bad state..

• This "game" has had so many promises about features and already broken ones about release and chances to try before buying..
• A coffee morning which seemed a desperate plea for cash mostly.

• The fact one week from launch the developers realise they dont have the infastructure in place for demand. (Like an MMO launch never get initial surges of people.. well duh .. yes they do !)
• One week before a supposed launch no one was sure where they could download the client or even begin to download in prepartion.  I assume the "game" is 15 Gigabytes of there abouts.
• Irritating good old US of A peoples by not even knowing when the game will launch there.
• Marketing footage shot from the back of a room using a s85T camera like FRAPS has never been invented.
• A STUPIDLY large list of features.
• CRAP animations .. oh yes they are !

• The fact the Mr Tasos won't allow his game to be placed in any critical reviewing or previewing arena. Oh yeah that bodes well... erm.. NOT !

You'd be a real sucker to pre-order this game because of the above. At best this is pure incompetance at worst this is a scam that will probably work given  the desperation of many MMO fans particularly those desperate for a sandbox game.

*If* you get burned they'll be ZERO sympathy  from most people. In fact I'd keep pre ordering very, very quiet least its time to start a new account on MMORPG. OF course on the 20 million to one (metaphorical) odds this game is alright ... I wish you luck my pretty pre order lemmings, I for one salute you.

Ok so first they say they will not have a preorder... You get to try it before you buy.. Yay sounds great ( to those of you who believe  compulsive liars). 

Now they delay release 1 week before the day, and then announce that preorders are now the major root to there so called try before you buy? Now does that sound like there telling the truth to you?

If you still think this game is your  god of games and this company is still the best and can never tell a lie then congrats to you for holding your own, but being nieve  is never a good thing.

op i totally agree with everything you say 

Originally posted by mutantmagnet

So we have a situation where not everyone will be able to try out the game before preordering.

We also have a situation where Aventurine rep mentions they didn't expect demand to be this high despite the growth of their forum registry going from ~50k to ~300k from August to December which was a good enough tip off, so either they are lying (if you believe they are scammer), dumb or naive (regardless of your belief).

One thing that is being overlooked though is that a number of you also believe Darkfall doesn't appeal to a lot of people and would never get above 100k subs at best.

This is where I think those who see Darkfall as being a scam are unfair in their criticism.

You think by not having the servers available to make this beta phase open to everyone interested they are trying to sucker many into preordering. Yet they even said they probably can't get enough servers to let everyone play on Feb 25th, so they'll turn away people if the demand is too high and only allow the preorders to play.

Should a company buy servers to accommodate every gawker who passes through when even you don't believe the game can retain them as subscribers?

Doing that is the same as burning money. Even Warhammer, as well made as it was from tier 1-2 couldn't retain the initial rush of customers as subs despite few had reached the tier 3 slosh.

Everyone else who thinks this is a scam, but believes a game of this type could sustain more than 200k subs in today's market all I can say is just hold Aventurine to their word.

If you weren't able to try the game yourself by the time the game launches then don't buy the game until they offer an ongoing free trial.

But keep in mind if the other people are correct and Darkfall's gameplay can't sustain subscriptions then you'll just have to wait.
Obviously if Aventurine and their publisher launches the game; but only buys a number of servers that can accommodate everyone willing to buy the game, because these gamers trust the word of those who do try the game, they most likely will not set aside resources to allow people to try out the game when they are in a financial whole and their publisher is going to take 35% of the revenue.

To anyone else who is on the fence about what Aventurine is doing I suggest to do the same and hold them to their word. Don't buy the game without trying, unless you trust the people who do get to try it from January 22 till launch.

If you are unsure to trust the people who get to try the game then consider these as warning flags. Aventurine has an NDA in force after February 15th (when preordering begins) and Aventurine's idea of thousands of players is really just a thousand testers.

To those thinking of preordering even if you don't get to see the game beforehand, (like myself) I'll most likely see you on the 25th ;)

Peace.

i don't think "not enough servers" is the reason anyone thinks darkfall is a scam.

the foolishness the past decade is.

---

Originally posted by tombear81

• This "game" has had so many promises about features and already broken ones about release and chances to try before buying..
• A coffee morning which seemed a desperate plea for cash mostly.
  • The fact one week from launch the developers realise they dont have the infastructure in place for demand. (Like an MMO launch never get initial surges of people.. well duh .. yes they do !)
  • One week before a supposed launch no one was sure where they could download the client or even begin to download in prepartion.  I assume the "game" is 15 Gigabytes of there abouts.
  • Irritating good old US of A peoples by not even knowing when the game will launch there. Marketing footage shot from the back of a room using a s85T camera like FRAPS has never been invented. A STUPIDLY large list of features. CRAP animations .. oh yes they are !
  The fact the Mr Tasos won't allow his game to be placed in any critical reviewing or previewing arena. Oh yeah that bodes well... erm.. NOT !

You'd be a real sucker to pre-order this game because of the above.

---

Let's break down each point.

• I've followed the game for two years. I don't need to be lectured about what is and isn't in the game by someone who doesn't even know that promised features have been removed. Unlike people like yourself I understand features get cut in any project because I've worked on enough projects to understand the group think that weeds out the bad ideas or weeds out the good but too expensive ideas. I honestly would be surprised if you've never been in a project to experience this.
• I thought this was the case as well but reading over the minutes and stated goals of open coffee I think this was primarily about networking instead of fundraising.
• This is one area I agree with you because it was obvious from the forum registry going from 50k to 200k in a matter of 2-3 months at least expect 300k people to try out your game. Personally I believe if 300k want to try the game easily expect a third of those people to discover they don't like the core rules so have enough servers to hold 200k.(Just to nitpick many MMOs don't have high demand. You obviously have not played games like Chronicles of Spellborn, Faith, Seed or Tabula Rasa)
• They always said they disliked preorders because developers were asking you to buy the game before you tried it. Preordering is on the 15th of February. Free trials can begin as early as January 22.I find the current situation acceptable because they aren't pointing a gun to my head demanding I preorder and they are going to allow people to try the game. I won't find this acceptable if the number of people who can try out the the game is significantly less than 10k AND they are under NDA. I also believe Aventurine at some point has to offer a general free trial phase or a server dedicated to holding free trial accounts which can be transferred over to paid servers.
• This is just hubris and lack of knowledge.Do you know only a small percentage of US companies do business with foreign nations and almost 80% of those companies deal only with Canada?Do you know it took more than 50 years for nations worldwide to reestablish their level of interaction with foreign market numbers after the World War II debacle?We aren't living in an age where multinational businesses are the rule instead of the exception.
• They've already released a video and have released atleast 1 per year in the past three.
• So you think the list is stupidly large. This subjectivity has no bearing on the state of the game.
• As I've stated in the DF forums the humanoid animations are crap while their mounts are awesome. It implies to me they had different people working on the animations and they should get the mount guy to work on everything else. Still this has no bearing on whether or not this game is a scam.

It doesn't even matter I've invalidated most of your points. Continue to be doubtful but realize you have flawed reasoning. I'll continue to consider preordering as a good deal unless I can't get any information about the state of the game without NDA leaks. The game shouldn't be under an NDA on or after the preorder date.

---

Originally posted by DuraheLL
OP:
Keep it up. Paladin... guy

---

---

OP your post looks really nice. In my opinion is the best advice you can give. In my side, I'll be trying to get info about the game to form an opinion.

---

Happy to oblige.

Originally posted by LordRelic

Ok so first they say they will not have a preorder... You get to try it before you buy.. Yay sounds great ( to those of you who believe  compulsive liars). 

Now they delay release 1 week before the day, and then announce that preorders are now the major root to there so called try before you buy? Now does that sound like there telling the truth to you?

If you still think this game is your  god of games and this company is still the best and can never tell a lie then congrats to you for holding your own, but being nieve  is never a good thing.

They didn't just say you won't be able to preorder DF...they specifically said all preorders were moneygrubbing attempts to sucker people out of their cash before ever trying the game.

I couldn't make that shit up if I tried, it's from a DF employee posted on their official boards.

Originally posted by mutantmagnet

 

---

Originally posted by tombear81

• This "game" has had so many promises about features and already broken ones about release and chances to try before buying..
• A coffee morning which seemed a desperate plea for cash mostly.
  • The fact one week from launch the developers realise they dont have the infastructure in place for demand. (Like an MMO launch never get initial surges of people.. well duh .. yes they do !)
  • One week before a supposed launch no one was sure where they could download the client or even begin to download in prepartion.  I assume the "game" is 15 Gigabytes of there abouts.
  • Irritating good old US of A peoples by not even knowing when the game will launch there. Marketing footage shot from the back of a room using a s85T camera like FRAPS has never been invented. A STUPIDLY large list of features. CRAP animations .. oh yes they are !
  The fact the Mr Tasos won't allow his game to be placed in any critical reviewing or previewing arena. Oh yeah that bodes well... erm.. NOT !

You'd be a real sucker to pre-order this game because of the above.

---

 

Let's break down each point.

 

• I've followed the game for two years. I don't need to be lectured about what is and isn't in the game by someone who doesn't even know that promised features have been removed. Unlike people like yourself I understand features get cut in any project because I've worked on enough projects to understand the group think that weeds out the bad ideas or weeds out the good but too expensive ideas. I honestly would be surprised if you've never been in a project to experience this.

The list is to big. There I said it. If you promise a lot and deliver little people are dissapointed, If you promise average and delvier more people are pleased. You dont need to be a genius to work out that list is one hell of a crazy amount and overly ambitous. Sorry but its pure size indicates this game could be a scam.... its just unrealistic. 

• I thought this was the case as well but reading over the minutes and stated goals of open coffee I think this was primarily about networking instead of fundraising.

Cough cough.. networking sources of  funds ? Cough Cough.. come on don't be silly its obvious what it was for. They need money for launch. The was not any journalists in the room form any major sites. Oh that just be crazy for aventurine wouldn't it ?! Journallists (plural) from OTHER coountries in the SAME room ... gosh darn it.

• This is one area I agree with you because it was obvious from the forum registry going from 50k to 200k in a matter of 2-3 months at least expect 300k people to try out your game. Personally I believe if 300k want to try the game easily expect a third of those people to discover they don't like the core rules so have enough servers to hold 200k.(Just to nitpick many MMOs don't have high demand. You obviously have not played games like Chronicles of Spellborn, Faith, Seed or Tabula Rasa)

We agree and we can also agree its so obvious it a little suspicous. Launch needs extra resources to deal with this. 

• They always said they disliked preorders because developers were asking you to buy the game before you tried it. Preordering is on the 15th of February. Free trials can begin as early as January 22.I find the current situation acceptable because they aren't pointing a gun to my head demanding I preorder and they are going to allow people to try the game. I won't find this acceptable if the number of people who can try out the the game is significantly less than 10k AND they are under NDA. I also believe Aventurine at some point has to offer a general free trial phase or a server dedicated to holding free trial accounts which can be transferred over to paid servers.

. I think your train of thought was almost getting negative there for second. Seems like you want to test this game badly huh ? That NDA is aventuines saving grace I tell ye.

• This is just hubris and lack of knowledge.Do you know only a small percentage of US companies do business with foreign nations and almost 80% of those companies deal only with Canada?Do you know it took more than 50 years for nations worldwide to reestablish their level of interaction with foreign market numbers after the World War II debacle?We aren't living in an age where multinational businesses are the rule instead of the exception.

What the hell you on about WWII and all ? All I said was the damn launch feel exclusionary for some. Yeah real  good fun times for USA people. Though can anyone be MORE in the dark about this game ?

They've already released a video and have released atleast 1 per year in the past three.

• So you think the list is stupidly large. This subjectivity has no bearing on the state of the game.

No the list is objectively massive. It bigger than any oither MMOs list ever ! It is cetainly NOT backed up by enough evidence. 

• As I've stated in the DF forums the humanoid animations are crap while their mounts are awesome. It implies to me they had different people working on the animations and they should get the mount guy to work on everything else. Still this has no bearing on whether or not this game is a scam.

There variable and some are downright awful. Some fast cuts in the video cover up the worst. And for gods sake no more videos by camcorder of some greek person playing backlit by a f*($$king window out of focus and from ten miles away. Seriously again... really makes people think this is a confident product.

 

It doesn't even matter I've invalidated most of your points. Continue to be doubtful but realize you have flawed reasoning. I'll continue to consider preordering as a good deal unless I can't get any information about the state of the game without NDA leaks. The game shouldn't be under an NDA on or after the preorder date.

 

No you did not invalidate anything. You just presented :  some confused historical example, some I know about" projects" waffle, some I have followed for X years I know more than you !  and then got all negative about conditions for assessing the game prior to release. Sir I believe your beginning to see the light.. move towards it !

But seriously (sort of) please pre order.. you brave fearless soul ! *salutes* ... if you go quiet after this I shall assume all did not go well. ;) 

Frankly I wont preorder this game because there simply isnt enough publically available information regarding same. Thats a pretty simple reason not to. I dont think its vaporware, or that it exists, as it currently isnt available, so it in effect, in my mind at least it languishes in some limbo of lost souls err wait, lost MMO's.

I do have a aside however, if DFO needed funding, in that it appealed to its fan base, to accept a incomplete game while sales/subs generated allowed them to add promised features/content that wouldnt bother me. Its the lack of honesty that would, IE, selling me a incomplete game when you promise otherwise, be honest, appeal to your fans, and press on with the vision. But never ever bullshit your customer. Thats bad juju beans.

One last thing you need to remember is there were a few recently released Blue Chip MMOs that fell on thier ass badly, they over promised and under delivered, people are very sceptical now of vague promises and want Babie to show Daddy the moneyzz. Nuff said.

Originally posted by mutantmagnet

So we have a situation where not everyone will be able to try out the game before preordering.

We also have a situation where Aventurine rep mentions they didn't expect demand to be this high despite the growth of their forum registry going from ~50k to ~300k from August to December which was a good enough tip off, so either they are lying (if you believe they are scammer), dumb or naive (regardless of your belief).

One thing that is being overlooked though is that a number of you also believe Darkfall doesn't appeal to a lot of people and would never get above 100k subs at best.

This is where I think those who see Darkfall as being a scam are unfair in their criticism.

You think by not having the servers available to make this beta phase open to everyone interested they are trying to sucker many into preordering. Yet they even said they probably can't get enough servers to let everyone play on Feb 25th, so they'll turn away people if the demand is too high and only allow the preorders to play.

Should a company buy servers to accommodate every gawker who passes through when even you don't believe the game can retain them as subscribers?

Doing that is the same as burning money. Even Warhammer, as well made as it was from tier 1-2 couldn't retain the initial rush of customers as subs despite few had reached the tier 3 slosh.

Everyone else who thinks this is a scam, but believes a game of this type could sustain more than 200k subs in today's market all I can say is just hold Aventurine to their word.

If you weren't able to try the game yourself by the time the game launches then don't buy the game until they offer an ongoing free trial.  <----Dis Part

But keep in mind if the other people are correct and Darkfall's gameplay can't sustain subscriptions then you'll just have to wait.
Obviously if Aventurine and their publisher launches the game; but only buys a number of servers that can accommodate everyone willing to buy the game, because these gamers trust the word of those who do try the game, they most likely will not set aside resources to allow people to try out the game when they are in a financial whole and their publisher is going to take 35% of the revenue.

To anyone else who is on the fence about what Aventurine is doing I suggest to do the same and hold them to their word. Don't buy the game without trying, unless you trust the people who do get to try it from January 22 till launch.

If you are unsure to trust the people who get to try the game then consider these as warning flags. Aventurine has an NDA in force after February 15th (when preordering begins) and Aventurine's idea of thousands of players is really just a thousand testers.

To those thinking of preordering even if you don't get to see the game beforehand, (like myself) I'll most likely see you on the 25th ;)

Peace.

This is what I will do. Will not try any subscrption based game without a try before I buy.

Just the same as I have done with AoC and WAR.

Do I think it is all a scam? No. A little put-off? Ayup.

I've been following off and on since the beginning, thinking that DF would be what U.O. 2.0 should have been before EA, in their  infinite wisdom, axed it.

But dangit, the giant troll-me sign that the T-man has stuck on the back of DF is to much for me to resist. It's just to easy!  

Originally posted by admriker4

I dont need beta access to see if the game isnt a scam.

But what I do require is a reputable reviewer see the game. Tasos has hidden this game from mmorpg.com and others and then asks for preorders.

Its simple really, show us the game actually exists and works and most of the scam claims will go away. If Tasos has nothing to hide he'll let someone besides his sister review the game

MMORPG.com is an irrelevance and the best think any developer can do is not pander to this cesspit. It has become more about ranting kiddies. Avoiding this hole is the best option with respect to longevity and success.

Originally posted by admriker4

I dont need beta access to see if the game isnt a scam.

But what I do require is a reputable reviewer see the game. Tasos has hidden this game from mmorpg.com and others and then asks for preorders.

Its simple really, show us the game actually exists and works and most of the scam claims will go away. If Tasos has nothing to hide he'll let someone besides his sister review the game

Actually, mmorpg got to play the game.  Just not the one written in a language you understand.

my question is, if they do launch and still running just one server, whats to say when the game launches there wont be enough room for people that do buy the game and wanting to play. How would that work out?

You would have to wait for additional servers to be added.  Pretty sure they will not have the capacity to host for 300k users at launch.  At least (it seems) they are only going to sell the game to the extent that they can handle the users.  (As opposed to selling as many as possible and implementing server queues).  Who knows though.  I'm sure a lot will depend on what they can get sorted w/ the delay.

For me the whole OP is completely pointless. Since Ave have already decided to back peddle on giving 'everyone' the oppotunity to play before they pay and if it really was a scam purely to get the cash from punters then why did they delay?

If the whole point was a scam, then they would have stuck up pre-orders on the 1st of jan, told everyone to pay up or you don't get in. Sure some people would have said it was a scam but only those that are right now anyway, plus they would have had a few more pre-orders from those that have just stopped following now due to the delay adding to the 'bunch of complete incompetant morons' claims.

Originally posted by mutantmagnet

So we have a situation where not everyone will be able to try out the game before preordering.

We also have a situation where Aventurine rep mentions they didn't expect demand to be this high despite the growth of their forum registry going from ~50k to ~300k from August to December which was a good enough tip off, so either they are lying (if you believe they are scammer), dumb or naive (regardless of your belief).

One thing that is being overlooked though is that a number of you also believe Darkfall doesn't appeal to a lot of people and would never get above 100k subs at best.

This is where I think those who see Darkfall as being a scam are unfair in their criticism.

You think by not having the servers available to make this beta phase open to everyone interested they are trying to sucker many into preordering. Yet they even said they probably can't get enough servers to let everyone play on Feb 25th, so they'll turn away people if the demand is too high and only allow the preorders to play.

Should a company buy servers to accommodate every gawker who passes through when even you don't believe the game can retain them as subscribers?

Doing that is the same as burning money. Even Warhammer, as well made as it was from tier 1-2 couldn't retain the initial rush of customers as subs despite few had reached the tier 3 slosh.

Everyone else who thinks this is a scam, but believes a game of this type could sustain more than 200k subs in today's market all I can say is just hold Aventurine to their word.

If you weren't able to try the game yourself by the time the game launches then don't buy the game until they offer an ongoing free trial.

But keep in mind if the other people are correct and Darkfall's gameplay can't sustain subscriptions then you'll just have to wait.
Obviously if Aventurine and their publisher launches the game; but only buys a number of servers that can accommodate everyone willing to buy the game, because these gamers trust the word of those who do try the game, they most likely will not set aside resources to allow people to try out the game when they are in a financial whole and their publisher is going to take 35% of the revenue.

To anyone else who is on the fence about what Aventurine is doing I suggest to do the same and hold them to their word. Don't buy the game without trying, unless you trust the people who do get to try it from January 22 till launch.

If you are unsure to trust the people who get to try the game then consider these as warning flags. Aventurine has an NDA in force after February 15th (when preordering begins) and Aventurine's idea of thousands of players is really just a thousand testers.

To those thinking of preordering even if you don't get to see the game beforehand, (like myself) I'll most likely see you on the 25th ;)

Peace.

WOW, you are pretty clueless.

The problem isn't the number of people they are letting in, it is the fact that the few people that are playing now are friends and family and longterm fans AND they are under an NDA. All they would have to do to make me a believer is to allow 100 'real people' into the beta and allow them to talk about their gameplay experience with all the features turned on.  I don't even care if they are only real fanboys who get in.  I just want to see 'features' turned on like cities, ships and guild functions.  

Also forget about the 300,000 number..  it is more like 50,000 people who made multiple accounts just in case the beta invites were random (which they weren't ).