I have been offered to play several MMORPGs for FREE, and I have rejected the offers.  The only game I play for FREE is WAR, and I could not pay-to-play anyway because I boycott all EA products.  Trust me, it was difficult to not pick-up a copy of Left 4 Dead: I love slaying zombies.  Not sure why.  Just love it!

Do We Want an Adventure Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but why not both?  Why not have features to log-in and accomplish tasks and also deep, but optional, Questing?  

The lack of Questing and character customization makes me feel like I am playing a single-player game, but what is worse for ME is that single-player games are better.

Single-player games for ME have more world immersion (GTA IV), exploration (Elder Scrolls), and character customization (Fallout 3) than MMORPGs.

Do We Want an PvP Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but was the failure of AoC and WAR too much PvP? 

PvP can be a bonus, but it should not be the focus on a game. 

I think other games (Call of Duty, e.g.) deliver PvP in a much more fun, intense, and exciting way than any MMORPG on the market.

Astonishing and Bizarre Worlds

The genius, I think, of J.R.R. Tolkien was his ability to create a "whole fantasy world" complete with geographies and languages.  Magical realism blossomed and were subject to the laws and rules of physics in these worlds. 

Today, there is a total lack of any sense of adventure or exploration in MMORPGs.

Exploration creates high adventure and intellectual excitement in games.

Innovation:  Meaningful Player Tools

Some games have player housing.  Big deal.  Everyone's house looks the same.  Why not allow players to customize design their houses, not just the interior?  

MMORPGs are missing big opportunities for their failure to innovate, and I think player tools is but one feature where this should be employed.  Let players design Quests, items, dungeons, etc.  Why not?  Do you have contractual duties to graphic card makers that you must (must) create games that half the market cannot play? 

(Please see WoW's subscription numbers and then review WoW's system requirements; do this at least three times.) 

One of the most fun games I ever played online was Vampire:  The Masequarade.  Players could assume the role of NPCs and take story-telling to incredible levels and sophisticated depths. 

Empower the player.

Indeed, I quit.  Or have I?  I think the industry has quit on ME.

Yes.  You could have my stuff - if only I had anything to give.  For the past few years, MMORPGs have been so dry for me that I never really got into any.  Since EQ/UO, the only MMORPG that I found to be any good was SWG.

1. Theres nothing wrong with both.

2. Why can't you have both. There's huge problems with games when PvP is a switch you turn off and on by going to a specific area, or talking to a NPC to PvP...and avoiding it when you dont. A PvP game is like Lineage 2 or EVE, and those games are still going strong ~5 years after release

Originally posted by declaredemer

I have been offered to play several MMORPGs for FREE, and I have rejected the offers.  The only game I play for FREE is WAR, and I could not pay-to-play anyway because I boycott all EA products.  Trust me, it was difficult to not pick-up a copy of Left 4 Dead: I love slaying zombies.  Not sure why.  Just love it!

 

Do We Want an Adventure Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but why not both?  Why not have features to log-in and accomplish tasks and also deep, but optional, Questing?  

The lack of Questing and character customization makes me feel like I am playing a single-player game, but what is worse for ME is that single-player games are better.

Single-player games for ME have more world immersion (GTA IV), exploration (Elder Scrolls), and character customization (Fallout 3) than MMORPGs.

Do We Want an PvP Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but was the failure of AoC and WAR too much PvP? 

PvP can be a bonus, but it should not be the focus on a game. 

I think other games (Call of Duty, e.g.) deliver PvP in a much more fun, intense, and exciting way than any MMORPG on the market.

 

Astonishing and Bizarre Worlds

The genius, I think, of J.R.R. Tolkien was his ability to create a "whole fantasy world" complete with geographies and languages.  Magical realism blossomed and were subject to the laws and rules of physics in these worlds. 

Today, there is a total lack of any sense of adventure or exploration in MMORPGs.

Exploration creates high adventure and intellectual excitement in games.

 

Innovation:  Meaningful Player Tools

Some games have player housing.  Big deal.  Everyone's house looks the same.  Why not allow players to customize design their houses, not just the interior?  

MMORPGs are missing big opportunities for their failure to innovate, and I think player tools is but one feature where this should be employed.  Let players design Quests, items, dungeons, etc.  Why not?  Do you have contractual duties to graphic card makers that you must (must) create games that half the market cannot play? 

(Please see WoW's subscription numbers and then review WoW's system requirements; do this at least three times.) 

One of the most fun games I ever played online was Vampire:  The Masequarade.  Players could assume the role of NPCs and take story-telling to incredible levels and sophisticated depths. 

Empower the player.

 

 

 

Indeed, I quit.  Or have I?  I think the industry has quit on ME.

Yes.  You could have my stuff - if only I had anything to give.  For the past few years, MMORPGs have been so dry for me that I never really got into any.  Since EQ/UO, the only MMORPG that I found to be any good was SWG.

 

 

 

 

Dude, Left 4 Dead is made by Valve. If you buy through Steam EA has nothing to do with it. If you're going to be a rebel/boycotter/martyr at least do it right.

Secondly, what do you mean people ask you to play games for free? Your thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

OP, I think its you who are broken, not the games.  Plenty of fun to be had out there, if you'll let go of the past and stop looking for somethiing that's probably never coming back.

A phase everyone seems to go through.

And yet you'll still be playing these games.

Originally posted by declaredemer

I have been offered to play several MMORPGs for FREE, and I have rejected the offers.  The only game I play for FREE is WAR, and I could not pay-to-play anyway because I boycott all EA products.  Trust me, it was difficult to not pick-up a copy of Left 4 Dead: I love slaying zombies.  Not sure why.  Just love it!

 

Do We Want an Adventure Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but why not both?  Why not have features to log-in and accomplish tasks and also deep, but optional, Questing?  

The lack of Questing and character customization makes me feel like I am playing a single-player game, but what is worse for ME is that single-player games are better.

Single-player games for ME have more world immersion (GTA IV), exploration (Elder Scrolls), and character customization (Fallout 3) than MMORPGs.

Do We Want an PvP Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but was the failure of AoC and WAR too much PvP? 

PvP can be a bonus, but it should not be the focus on a game. 

I think other games (Call of Duty, e.g.) deliver PvP in a much more fun, intense, and exciting way than any MMORPG on the market.

 

Astonishing and Bizarre Worlds

The genius, I think, of J.R.R. Tolkien was his ability to create a "whole fantasy world" complete with geographies and languages.  Magical realism blossomed and were subject to the laws and rules of physics in these worlds. 

Today, there is a total lack of any sense of adventure or exploration in MMORPGs.

Exploration creates high adventure and intellectual excitement in games.

 

Innovation:  Meaningful Player Tools

Some games have player housing.  Big deal.  Everyone's house looks the same.  Why not allow players to customize design their houses, not just the interior?  

MMORPGs are missing big opportunities for their failure to innovate, and I think player tools is but one feature where this should be employed.  Let players design Quests, items, dungeons, etc.  Why not?  Do you have contractual duties to graphic card makers that you must (must) create games that half the market cannot play? 

(Please see WoW's subscription numbers and then review WoW's system requirements; do this at least three times.) 

One of the most fun games I ever played online was Vampire:  The Masequarade.  Players could assume the role of NPCs and take story-telling to incredible levels and sophisticated depths. 

Empower the player.

 

 

 

Indeed, I quit.  Or have I?  I think the industry has quit on ME.

Yes.  You could have my stuff - if only I had anything to give.  For the past few years, MMORPGs have been so dry for me that I never really got into any.  Since EQ/UO, the only MMORPG that I found to be any good was SWG.

 

 

 

 

When you grow up and get a  job, you'll notice that $15/mo for damn near ANY MMORPG (even the crappy ones), is a steal for the hours and hours and hours of entertainment they provide.

There are a couple of games on the way that has some interesting features.

Star Trek Online will have alot of exploration and customization.

Star Wars: The old Republic will focus heavily on story telling

City of Heroes/Villains are working their next expansion which I think will include the tools for players to create their own missions.

CCP are working on a MMO based on White Wolfs vampire world I believe, so theres some Vamp action for ya... a few years from now that is.

Originally posted by Kyleran

OP, I think its you who are broken, not the games.  Plenty of fun to be had out there

 

+1  'Nuff said.

Originally posted by Thradar

Originally posted by Kyleran

OP, I think its you who are broken, not the games.  Plenty of fun to be had out there

 

 

+1  'Nuff said.

+1 here too, i miss old swg, but i am having fun in other places now that i would not have known about if swg didnt change.

Originally posted by declaredemer

Some games have player housing.  Big deal.  Everyone's house looks the same.  Why not allow players to customize design their houses, not just the interior? 

Please see Ultima Online for the best housing system ever devised. Too bad it's in a decade-old game.

I agree with the OP on the state of MMORPGs.  They are going backs instead of forwards.  In the beggining there were many different things to do in game.  You could explore, solve puzzles, craft, etc.  There was a lot of combat, but there were other things to do.  Most of the MMOs these days are not focusing almost entirely on combat.  If they do put story in it's useually more of a afterthought.  They show you exactly where to go for everything so exploring is out.  The quests are generally very simple so puzzles are out.  Crafting is generally easy and you get better items from killing things so crafting is out.  If you enjoy constantly killing things over and over again I guess you can enjoy todays MMOs.

 What we need is for the MMOG devs to stop trying to hop on the easy train cash train called WoW and go and take another route.

 SANDBOX sci-fi mmogs are what is needed atm,and seriously it's a untapped market,if done right it will be a sounding succes,there is no competion on that market ,unless someone decides to make a EVE clone ... look at EVE,slowly growing since launch ... despite ups and downs of some stupid devs,EVE has being getting free huge content releases and even graphics overhaul (basicly remade half the game) since it launched.

MMOG Companies need to start looking from the customer's perspective "would I want to pay extra for a shitty 2 bit expansion with the same area and stuff except with different names" ... and ALSO DEVS NEED TO START PLAYING THEIR OWN FREAKING MMORPGS,IF THEY DONT ENJOY 

THEM USUALY IT MEANS THE CONSUMER DOESNT EITHER. 

Originally posted by declaredemer

Indeed, I quit.  Or have I?  I think the industry has quit on ME.

Yes.  You could have my stuff - if only I had anything to give.  For the past few years, MMORPGs have been so dry for me that I never really got into any.  Since EQ/UO, the only MMORPG that I found to be any good was SWG.

 

No wonder you are quitting. You don't have any stuff, which means you suck.

Originally posted by declaredemer

 

MMORPGs are missing big opportunities for their failure to innovate, and I think player tools is but one feature where this should be employed.  Let players design Quests, items, dungeons, etc.  Why not?  Do you have contractual duties to graphic card makers that you must (must) create games that half the market cannot play? 

Empower the player.

 

Nope. Just no. I won't play a game flooded with amateur produced content. Playing content is just an excuse to skim on production value.

I will take professionally produced content any time any day. If you ever play mods of any game, you will know than 99.99% of the player generated stuff is crap.

<Points to door>

“Please leave your stuff on the way out. Thank you.”

<sounds of rummaging>

WHOA WHOA WHOA..

Back it up, back it up.. *beep beeeep beeeeep*

You just said you get offered to play mmo's..... for free... and turned them down.. wow.

I'm not even going to say anything else, just wow, tell them to e-mail me, ill gladly accept all those free invitations.

Originally posted by declaredemer

I have been offered to play several MMORPGs for FREE, and I have rejected the offers.  The only game I play for FREE is WAR, and I could not pay-to-play anyway because I boycott all EA products.  Trust me, it was difficult to not pick-up a copy of Left 4 Dead: I love slaying zombies.  Not sure why.  Just love it!

 

Do We Want an Adventure Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but why not both?  Why not have features to log-in and accomplish tasks and also deep, but optional, Questing?  

The lack of Questing and character customization makes me feel like I am playing a single-player game, but what is worse for ME is that single-player games are better.

Single-player games for ME have more world immersion (GTA IV), exploration (Elder Scrolls), and character customization (Fallout 3) than MMORPGs.

Do We Want an PvP Game or Roleplaying Game?

I hate to answer my own question with a question, but was the failure of AoC and WAR too much PvP? 

PvP can be a bonus, but it should not be the focus on a game. 

I think other games (Call of Duty, e.g.) deliver PvP in a much more fun, intense, and exciting way than any MMORPG on the market.

 

Astonishing and Bizarre Worlds

The genius, I think, of J.R.R. Tolkien was his ability to create a "whole fantasy world" complete with geographies and languages.  Magical realism blossomed and were subject to the laws and rules of physics in these worlds. 

Today, there is a total lack of any sense of adventure or exploration in MMORPGs.

Exploration creates high adventure and intellectual excitement in games.

 

Innovation:  Meaningful Player Tools

Some games have player housing.  Big deal.  Everyone's house looks the same.  Why not allow players to customize design their houses, not just the interior?  

MMORPGs are missing big opportunities for their failure to innovate, and I think player tools is but one feature where this should be employed.  Let players design Quests, items, dungeons, etc.  Why not?  Do you have contractual duties to graphic card makers that you must (must) create games that half the market cannot play? 

(Please see WoW's subscription numbers and then review WoW's system requirements; do this at least three times.) 

One of the most fun games I ever played online was Vampire:  The Masequarade.  Players could assume the role of NPCs and take story-telling to incredible levels and sophisticated depths. 

Empower the player.

 

 

 

Indeed, I quit.  Or have I?  I think the industry has quit on ME.

Yes.  You could have my stuff - if only I had anything to give.  For the past few years, MMORPGs have been so dry for me that I never really got into any.  Since EQ/UO, the only MMORPG that I found to be any good was SWG.

 

 

 

 

OMG send this to Mythic and Co.
Seriously, I agree with you, that' is what Developers are missing as lately.
The latest MMORPG feel more like regular Multiplayer games than MMORPG partly because the RPG experience is overlooked, there is no sense of continuity in the recent MMORPG, you don't feel part of the world.

I hope Devs stop trying to integrate mass market games with MMORPG, that's where they are going wrong.
People wants virtual worlds to be immerse in, not games where you complete your task and then log off, like you do in normal Multiplayer games

That's why people is hyping so much a game like Darkfall, even the trolls complaints are based on the fact that it sounds to good to be true.................and probably is, but that's another matter.
If that kind of game is what people wants (well maybe taking away the full loot) why not giving it to them?
That's stupid that more big publishers do not try to make a similar MMORPG

STE2000

I would say you dont have a clue IMO.

Most folks dont want a second life out of their game...instead they wanna log in and have fun with friends.

They want the content there,,,they dont want to pay for a MMO then have to make their own content.

It gets downright old listening to you sandbox folks go on and on about how much the system is wanted in gaming....cause it isnt.

Those that are interested in siming already have second life and the original sims. Have at it....but spare us the screaming at the top of your lungs trying to make your niche crowd appear as the majority of players...as it is widely known PVE content laden games are the top selling around.

Bonus if they include PvP for those that enjoy that type of play.

What they cant include is a sandbox game, at the same time, as a title only has so much money at start up. So its either produce the best polished PVE or PvP game they can...or try to mix/match and fail from the lauch of the game, cause the game couldnt be made into a top notch product due to lack of money to cover all the various things being attempted. Sort of like SWG.

This is read as "get over it"...I doubt you ever see a game that is PVE content laden and a sandbox ever. Nor do I think you will ever see a company pour WOW type start up money into a sandbox...they will be niche games with very little investment as they have proven not to be very popular.

To build that type of game(a full sandbox along with a full PVE) would probably run 100M or more....with no guarantee of success. YOu think a company is willing to gamble that much? Pfft yeah OK.

Moak, so far who has been proved to be wrong is you and devs who think like you, which as lately are more and more.
Every game after WoW which followed the path you describe has underperformed, so apparently that's not what people wants.

All the description you gave of a MMORPG is good and well, except you can do what you described in a Multiplayer environment, you don't have to play a MMORPG to play and have fun with your friends
You,  like most of the players who approached the MMORPG world with WoW, do not get the original concept of MMORPG.

First of all you got this idea that virtual worlds equal games like Second life, that's not what virtual world means to me, since this kind of game never appealed me.
My main focus, like I believe many of the MMORPGs players, is the combat, not building stuff.
Virtual worlds in MMORPGs don't have to have total freedom either like in sandboxes, in order to be enjoiable, you can very well have a linear game, either PvP or PVE centered, with a certain amount of freedom, but where devs are very still in control.

Talking about Sandboxes vs Linear.
Playing a sandbox, contrary to what you think, doesn't equal having a second job, in fact they are far less time consuming than "modern" linear games.
Recent linear games  hooks you to play massive amount of hours a day to level fast and get the uber gear.
Sandbox can be played at your own pace, there is not a clear goal to achieve, so you don't have to put up insane amount of hours trying to reach lvl 80 ASAP, or raid 5 hours hoping that the epic piece you were looking for months drops.
In sandboxes, you log on and enjoy the community and the game much more, and if you only play few hours you don't feel guilty of logging out because there is nothing you have to keep up with.

Also although I made Darkfall example, I wasn't talking only about Sandboxes.
Linear games too can have a world that feel alive if devs stop copying WoW.
EQ and EQ2 did have a good feel at the beginning.
DAoC and AC had the virtual world feeling where you felt part of the world and part of the community, this isn't something possible only in Sandboxes.
For your info I do appreciate both sandboxes and linear games, problem is that as lately linear games are all shit, see the reasons above, sandboxes give more chances of a fun game even if it is not AAA quality, but making a fun linear game with a live and breathing world, is very well possible if devs stop being lazy.

All the latest games, feel souless, those games are not design for community interaction, and because people don't feel they belong to that world they refuse to pay a monthly fee when they can get the same excitement from a regular multiplayer game which is free.

The mistake you do, like many devs out there, is to think that who wants to play a MMORPG wants the same thing you look for in a normal single game or multiplayer game.
I am convinced that Single games, Multiplayer games and MMORPGs are very different kind of games and cater for very different playstiles, and I think I am right.
Well at least none of the so call AAA games you praised so much has a subscription base of more than 500K (excluding WoW), which can prove me wrong, it looks to me that the market doesn't look so eager to play the games you describe after all.


 

Originally posted by hvc801

WHOA WHOA WHOA..

Back it up, back it up.. *beep beeeep beeeeep*

You just said you get offered to play mmo's..... for free... and turned them down.. wow.

I'm not even going to say anything else, just wow, tell them to e-mail me, ill gladly accept all those free invitations.

    Im surprised he didnt say they offered to pay him to play their MMOs........Unless he means that he plays for free because mommy pays for it.

Originally posted by Moaky07

STE2000

 

I would say you dont have a clue IMO.

Most folks dont want a second life out of their game...instead they wanna log in and have fun with friends.

They want the content there,,,they dont want to pay for a MMO then have to make their own content.

It gets downright old listening to you sandbox folks go on and on about how much the system is wanted in gaming....cause it isnt.

Those that are interested in siming already have second life and the original sims. Have at it....but spare us the screaming at the top of your lungs trying to make your niche crowd appear as the majority of players...as it is widely known PVE content laden games are the top selling around.

Bonus if they include PvP for those that enjoy that type of play.

What they cant include is a sandbox game, at the same time, as a title only has so much money at start up. So its either produce the best polished PVE or PvP game they can...or try to mix/match and fail from the lauch of the game, cause the game couldnt be made into a top notch product due to lack of money to cover all the various things being attempted. Sort of like SWG.

This is read as "get over it"...I doubt you ever see a game that is PVE content laden and a sandbox ever. Nor do I think you will ever see a company pour WOW type start up money into a sandbox...they will be niche games with very little investment as they have proven not to be very popular.

To build that type of game(a full sandbox along with a full PVE) would probably run 100M or more....with no guarantee of success. YOu think a company is willing to gamble that much? Pfft yeah OK.

I think it's possible.  Games like Ultima Online and Everquest has more innovative features and they were made using a much smaller budget then games today.

"I would say you dont have a clue IMO.

Most folks dont want a second life out of their game...instead they wanna log in and have fun with friends.

They want the content there,,,they dont want to pay for a MMO then have to make their own content."

Then I suggest you try mIRC, I hear its a good "chat" game.

Astonishing and Bizarre Worlds

The genius, I think, of J.R.R. Tolkien was his ability to create a "whole fantasy world" complete with geographies and languages.  Magical realism blossomed and were subject to the laws and rules of physics in these worlds. 

Today, there is a total lack of any sense of adventure or exploration in MMORPGs.

Exploration creates high adventure and intellectual excitement in games.

 

 

I couldnt agree more with this.

Everything seems innovative when a game is new, esspecially a genre.  Don't give the early developers too much credit though.  They had a very uninformed playerbase with ZERO expectations to cater to.  Its quite easy to make people happy who think running around in an empty field is COOL, much less waiting for a 1/2 hr to travel someplace.   People were having fun just chatting with someone in another state;) 

Cleaning up old features and making them FUN or removing things everyone hated is more innovative than just slapping a bunch of things together and calling it a game.

Originally posted by Josher

Everything seems innovative when a game is new, esspecially a genre.  Don't give the early developers too much credit though.  They had a very uninformed playerbase with ZERO expectations to cater to.  Its quite easy to make people happy who think running around in an empty field is COOL, much less waiting for a 1/2 hr to travel someplace.   People were having fun just chatting with someone in another state;) 

Cleaning up old features and making them FUN or removing things everyone hated is more innovative than just slapping a bunch of things together and calling it a game.

I think it's pretty easy way out to look at it that way. 

It's true that in EQ and UO that there were some things that you don't have from current games, but there are many things from those games that aren't in games today.

EQ was the game I played the most of all MMOs.  There was a lot of monster grinding, but there were a lot of neat places to venture in the world.  The dungeons were very complex compared to today's game.  In befallen you could fall through trap holes in the ceillings.  To get you needed keys which dropped off monsters in the dungeon.  It's likely you could not kill said monsters by yourself.  Very dangerous place.  There were all kinds of secret doors in the dungeons.  There was a scret passage between upper guk and lower guk.  In Sebellis you had to swim through underwater passages to get to certain places.  In Velious dungeons there were slippery paths in which you could fall to your death.  There was one where you had to jump over a large hole or land in a bunch of monsters far below.  If you died there it was almost impossible to get your corpse.  Sol A/B had an entrence in which you had to swim through lava.  It was almost impossible without the right fire resistance.  There were ways to get to different planes like the plane of air.  I believe that required a wizard, but I forget.  Overall it was really neat to explore that world compared to exploring the worlds available these days.

UO had a lot of things that were unique as well.  It may be the only game every to have open PvP.  It incoroprated the ability to pickpocket other real players.  It had boats you could buy and sail around in, but that could be stolen from you by losing the deed for the boat.  The same with houses.  Crafting was an important part of the game.  There was a lot to do other then kill things.

Generally you don't see these things in games today.  I enjoy World of Warcraft, but it doesn't have the same requirement in terms of difficultly level or exploration.